Bad Writing in ASOIAF (Not the TV show… in the books).

I started reading Game of Thrones the
books a Song of Ice and Fire basically during the time of my divorce you know I remember it struck me I was in a hotel room when you get divorced pancit involves a toddler who's now I said no talking I totally forgotten about the TV show of the books it wasn't on my mind and you know I was in a hotel room and the packing or unpacking or something and turned on the TV well as a bed there was Game of Thrones so I would guess that was one season three came out or season yeah something like that what country were you in I mean that's that's no that is even harder to say I was probably Hong Kong which is not really a country all told but um and it just occurred to me I thought oh now that I'm divorced I I couldn't take the time to actually read these books right never considered an option before yeah you may also you may suddenly have a lot more time on your hands before so yeah and now here I am with my my girlfriend like five years later she's off camera none of you can see how good-looking shoes hi ha ha ha and she's catching up with me in the game of Thrones books so I think for years it has been on my mind to make a video trying to talk honestly about bad writing in the Song of Ice and Fire books in George RR Martin's work and it I can't really say it's a taboo subject it's something pretty much every podcast at some point breaks out in guffaws about right so Melissa you're not 100% up to the way all right let's let's start at the deep end oh yeah no I okay I was gonna mention some some shallow shovels oh I want to start with a really with a really deep one cuz she's far enough the books to do this too okay who paid the cat's paw which is to say who gave the dagger so that bran would be assassinated when he was crippled and why backronym still to this day people show up at conferences at work George are Marta speaking and they say things like you know slight variation wears oh I hope in the next book we'll finally get the solution to the Kasbah mystery yahoo and george RR martin says back oh I thought that already was solved maybe it's because Tyrion believed it was Joffrey that or somebody to do that right Joffrey had access to because it's made of white Valyrian steel Aryan steel right but even commenter Ian's account of it there were so many holes there were so many things lacking and there's so many there are so many things about it that don't make sense yeah and this is like the central motivating element or instigating event for the plot for the first three books or something right right yeah Oh Bailey what started the right the war right so why was this child assassin no reason why was he assassinated with a weapon that uniquely links the murderer to Littlefinger in Kings Lane no reason he just picked that one at random he just liked the way look why was the assassin given a weapon that's priceless like in the books as they progress we get the sense dragon bone and Valyrian steel it's like this dagger is as expensive as like an army you know mean it's like it's so ridiculously valuable no no reason no and then you know and how is this resolved you know yeah that's true that's it I mean I made it up as he went along you know that's George RR Martin's writing method is gardening as he goes along just you know the story grows in the telling you know say it's not applauded out murder mystery he didn't when he started writing the mystery he didn't have the end in mind already so it just kind of fizzles out okay so you started out this video by talking about how you were introduced to the books so I will just say a little bit the Game of Thrones show came out structure symmetry listen this go on yeah when I first started college yeah yeah started University and I couple of my friends I think my sophomore year would always meet up at this one house one of my friend's house to watch Game of Thrones and I was really like auntie Game of Thrones for no real good reason just because I'm I'm not usually somebody who watches mainstream television and I mean not saying it's just usually I'm not not into it whether you're above it or beneath the your own sight um you know coming from the background that I have I know some people may be listening to me that don't even know who I am don't really know my background but you know I come from like more Christian background and like I always thought of HBO is this really like pornographic you know like I had she's not Christian a told herself there was an adult but that's interesting terms your upbringing and HBO is the softcore porn of yeah totally exactly yeah we didn't have HP and Game of Thrones in particular is notorious for a reason this way right yeah right and the books are not a I mean like the amount of the amount of on-camera sex in the book so to speak yes yeah it's true yes it's not as raunchy as I thought it would be I mean you did mention the other day you wouldn't want to be reading this in front of your parents like you would like there are some moments that are like what a lot you remember sorry this jumping at the John Beck she was shocked when I pointed out to her Dunkin egg that the dunk and egg stories of the prequels do these huh that there is an off-camera sex scene that's alluded to with like one a sentence oh yeah yeah so most of the sex is like that in the books unlike the TV show right yeah so that was my first impression of Game of Thrones I thought that it would be you know basically boobs and Dragons right swords and stuff there are boobs in the book I mean it has to be said maybe all of a pretty good sense of what George's type is I don't I don't think George has a lot of experience alone I really don't know I got this this is another source of bad writing against the the author's limited yes so there was one of my friends the George Mort Mark George RR Martin's school of seduction so one of my friends who went by the name of panda that was his nickname so panda was telling me about the books so he he started with the show and then he was like oh there are books like I'm gonna read all the books and they're really going on to me about how I should start reading them and really get into them and the way he was describing it to me it sounded so dorky I didn't really read it was like they were dragon yeah you like yeah he's like it's like it's like a historical fictional novel but like all these other things involved like dragons and you know zombies like these creatures beyond the walls so yeah and it's short that was not convincing to me to get into the books or the show so I successfully avoided it you know other like people posting ranked and that and then she fell in love with the wrong man you know I got into your YouTube channel and you like yeah a video about that was one of the first kind of non serious or silly things I had on my channel like before I started doing Game of Thrones a song by Sapphire Khan that everything was was pretty serious yeah cause I just made you like whether it was politics or talking about my own life or whatever yeah that that kind of changed the tone bama Guanyin well yes all on my channel you then heard me talking about yeah I mean I had seen so many other videos from you beforehand I was not expecting that I was just you know you didn't see what good kind of person that would I don't know what I thought the kind of person was that got into Game of Thrones kind of like already like they go to confession okay so I drove in here I don't know if she has more cinnamon but I got a job yeah you know so heard a podcast recently and they had new people on the podcast that like a round table and one of the questions they asked is who is your favorite character on Game of Thrones surely show you in the book song of us for whatever you know we're talking about the books year round real-time with you who your favorite character in the book series and you kind of can tell something about people and naturally nobody's gonna say like nobody's gonna say Jon Snow nobody they all said you know pretty obscure characters like pretty minor characters he did memorable things or something but are just the first thing I thought wow if that if that was put to me with no preparation like if I were guests on this podcast my answer would be Kevan Lannister so Kevan Lannister gets one chapter from his point of view and you haven't gotten to it yet that's right at the end okay so right Kevan Lannister is the prototypical me and old man talking about politics in the book he's just like it's that side of those but if you after you said what kind of person like him so why would I be the kind of personal skin drops I'm not into dragons I'm not into zombies I have other sources of boobs in my life I'm not reading the books for erotic interest or whatever right but to me it's really moving and really interesting and really politically stimulating including you know Kevan Lannister but Kevan Lannister is he's like for all this but he is just another guy who sits there and talks about and reflects on the political situation but yeah all the chapters that are mean old men discussing politics are thrilling to me and like the childhood perspective of bran is of no interest none you know the various female characters you know teenage girl having her period for the first time I thought that was well written by the way and I'm not saying that was but not what I'm here for you know what I mean so it is a lot their terms the the range of life experience but yeah there's of wine the kind of person yeah yeah yeah you know I do understand why you got into it and also yeah I read it based on your suggestions like the first book yes right a lot of chapters are about the young characters and basically to include them I mean I do pretty much with all three don't I know you do three yeah but I started with all three so okay this this this podcast that is about bad writing in chemicals I think the Duncan Dec novels are exquisitely well-written I think they were extremely well-written the very first of the three stories is a little bit subtle in its virtues like I can imagine someone reading and just seeing what's the big deal but I do think the first one is also rewarding but then the next two currently there are only three they're supposed to be like seven more but I think that those are really really well written our a really good way into the books and I mean I think you just get the point there honor and dignity matter and visibly and invisibly our obligations in life are linked to politics and trying to make the world a better place and what kind of man do you want to be the the ontic roaring this is real academics be you know but like the the sub-basement level structure of what these books are about philosophically and politically I think is really set out for you there in those short stories and without dragons you know from also you know what sir this is another issue in in the books of Hall is they're not from an aristocratic point of view I mean dump is not at the top of the social hierarchy he's pretty close to the bottom so you also get a bit more of a peasant's view on this world and on why these these political issues yeah I'm sorry I did jump in did you want us a little bit more about about your first discovery of the books and moist every the morning well yeah obviously I started reading them because you would read them and you you said I should read the Duncan I have Duncan yeah that that's what I read first and then I started reading the the first book at your recommendation I skipped quite a few of the chapters she skimmed some of you volume cuz it's just a lot there this Isabel bad writer right okay but let's be real this is like what I said with the murder mystery there's all kinds of crap in the first book that goes nowhere and that reflects the fact that this was an improv that's why the first book is only were saying when you are reading the first book as it is today in many ways you're reading a first draft not just a first book right oh um what about all the religions that are really important by book 5 or book 7 or whatever you want to say they're not in there no man no but it's like no that that world building to go on um what about the board game called sigh bass what about the literal and figurative Game of Thrones called sigh bass that turns up in like the very last volume as they're currently it might be in the last chapter of peaceful forget like at the very end it's like oh oh yeah yeah yeah the Game of Thrones it's an actual game and it in a really meaningful way shows you the differences in character between like Tyrion and you this princess from Dorne and a bunch of other contrasts and Tyrion and the self swords they play the game step oh it's it's super meaningful but it's not in its Oh how about the whole prehistory that that is in the third Duncan it's egg story of the blacks versus the Reds this civil war then in many ways set the stage and set up the whole subplot with Aegon and what varies and Illyrio mopatis our play well not there like there's so much that's missing that should be there in volume 1 as it's never in the game girls and there's so much crap there that is meaningless and is going nowhere it means nothing okay and and I want to say this straight up to your face Internet I'm saying this to your face Internet volume 1 is badly written okay why definition of bad writing when things happen so the plot can progress and for no other reason okay uh we're gonna do the great ranging at the wall we're gonna round up a bunch of guys and March why so so the plot can progress how are we gonna win okay so now we're at Craster's keep so you don't even army this is a contingent the great ranging the whole of the Nights Watch is massively undermanned that aren't enough men to lose anybody this shouldn't be risking anyone's life they stopped the Craster's keep crashed her and the old bear Craster and the the lurched manner that I watch they sit down they think let's break it down there were a million wildlings there is the largest army of human beings the North has ever known has been amassed by Mance Rayder if you bump into them every single one of you will die oh yeah you know what else is going on the others and this army of ice zombies that's all so if you bump into them every single woman will die yeah hmm well let's keep going north yeah wait what are you trying to accomplish you know there's nothing there for you to conquer it's not like you're trying to occupy and conquer a foreign city there is no objective there is nothing it's not even like you're inviting Mance Rayder to negotiate a peace treaty there was absolutely nothing that Vienna and all of you are gonna die and you've confirmed that explicitly in the meeting and discussion to crash with you why are you gonna keep going well well there's a there's an author and there's a plot cuz this isn't it's garbage writing okay okay wait wait but it gets worse mmm so pour in half hand ya comes back to the OSI she's read it recently she remembers all these obscure names of his people who he's the guy who comes back to the wall and as soon as he shows up so he's just gotten back to the wall it's like oh let's let's go raging in the north and kill some random wildlings and let's take Jon Snow with us why no reason oh hey you're Jon Snow hey you're you're Vegas 14 you're like right right with no skills like oh yeah we're putting together a unit of like the hardest dudes in the Knights walk one of them has a name like stone snake but yeah me and scoring half an and stone snake and like whatever the other guy's name is like you a speeder or some crap no no the wildlings okay that's where the bones another good way yeah yeah we got these like hard men from the Nights Watch we're gonna go up and like rape and murder some random wildlings because that's what we do no moral comment um so let's just have Jon Snow join us Oh woah he's like in the stewards guild he's not a ranger and he's like your work and we're undermanned and we're supposed to be fighting that luck and and it what why do you want plot the Lord Commander says to him directly but if you if you do this you're all gonna die like you're just you're just gonna die oh well you know nobody lives forever with that's the actual there's no objective what are you gonna accomplish going you're nothing you're all gonna die we need every man we can get we're critically undermanned we're in the middle of a war and again there's no strategy it's not like there's a peace treaty coming with maths no no war on an unbelievable scale with both the largest army of humans and the unlimited army of zombie okay by that okay John go join oh yeah I hope you meet Benjamin in your watery grave yeah yeah maybe I'll bump into uncle Bayesian on your way to your death like it makes no sense it's so stupid it's so unbelievably dumb that is bad writing and there's there's no way you can like symbolically interpret and be like oh well you know telepathically bloodraven was manipulating them or jaja and could see the future no it's just bad writing so and volume one has a lot of that they only want to talk about one one I want to talk about the events of the more recent novels because volume one is not that interesting but volume one if you actually go back and look at it with the level of scrutiny that you have for the later volumes it is badly ready well I remember when I first started reading it I was really impressed with the forward or like the very first part yes that's beautifully written yeah the prologue when they find the wolves the wolf pups like you know like some of some chapters I think sure no no sure sure sure looking at it in isolation I remember feeling so the prologue that's when we first see the others north of the wall yeah and you know the quality of writing there just the description of the trees the trees with their icy fingers against the sky and I really felt it that as soon as we got to chapter one or two the quality of writing went down it's like oh I see yeah you can't do like a 3,000 page book and have that level of I've really liked the epilogues and prologues yes that's right there's a little more care with the language yeah and it's usually like people that we don't know right now it's right right I mean George so George was a short story writer and most a novella writer yeah and he wrote scripts for all it would you know number of pages in a script is not is not that long and yeah there's a certain beauty to it short stories like that well I think I mean these novels they really are like a series of short stories I mean so everyone said that but I mean you know like so you have that epilogue or that prologue and it kind of works as a short story unto itself yeah and then you get links together this series of somewhat disjointed short stories sure yeah you guys can tell even this criticism you can tell like in many ways I appreciate George and is writing and I love the books but there is a lot of bad writing in it for me like a ragequit moment forgetting that this was the first time I went through the books of the second because I think I'm remembering it from like the second or third time let's err not all of it have it read three times but the later books feast dance I've definitely done three times but I remember when Sam gets the old town oh my god so we have as readers we have no interest in old town it is just another town on the map it's not like oh great with all this foreshadowing I'm really interested to have a detailed description of old town and it's like toward the end of a three thousand dollars like okay guys I'm now gonna explain to you what the market looks like and bridge looks like and the cobblestones and the architecture and you're gonna get a guided tour there's this tower and this is some history behind the tower it's like my dude if this was in volume one within the first 200 pages of volume one okay like we all signed up for that like if you start a new novel you start a new story the first let's see I don't even remember the first description of King's Landing probably was like that when the stark family arrives and stick King's Landing and it smells bad and whatever okay fine the first description of Winterfell fine but like dude you are Swift the volumes into this there's nothing interesting about it the description of old town is an old town there is absolutely nothing interesting about the description of old town as Sam is on his way to sit alone yeah it's a little much but you know this is coming from somebody who has read all of the Lord of the Rings books yeah that was another level of description and just too much do you feel you accept that because I know it for me if the description serves no purpose yeah I know I own that way I'm sorry I'm just not remembering where she is right now but wherever Arya is and doing the story right now like she knows you from yeah when she arrived there I felt like there were like just wait right the description was too much you know I mean it could have been condensed into maybe one voyage or two pages but I don't know it it was a little much I know I know he's introducing a new place but yeah but why I mean that's that's ultimately the question like what you know I mean it in terms the original plan of the books we got a lot of description of the horselords the Dothraki in their society yes and it's clear the original plan of the books was okay we get this foreshadowing set up we learn about their society and then a large part of the book is gonna be them arriving in Westeros you know we're running Westeros and how everything changes yeah when Westeros is conquered by a bunch of horse tornado variants is that what the books are about anymore like is that I mean is that still gonna happen you know maybe you know maybe Daenerys comes over but it now seems like my inner thing now it's like oh no no we have all this description of the Iron Islands and the Iron Islands and like the religious themes attached to your on Greyjoy who wasn't even a character in like the first three books or something like you know he was just one more branch and a family truck oh no no this is what's really important is like the religion of the Iron Islands let you know okay is that the major like symbolic political and moral conflict or not you know yeah I think you told me that it has the world record for number of characters yes series and that I don't really accept that and most of the time when I'm reading about the descriptions of the horse like it's the horses families like I just I just turned out you know like I try to read what information is relevant but that's like you know I don't need to know the whole family tree for every single character yeah okay look I mean I I'd like I appreciate the imaginative Ness the creativity but yeah like you say if it's not for a purpose or if it's not I don't know do you think it has more of a point like the descriptions of the family names and how people are related I mean I think that's part of what makes these discussions so difficult is that we ultimately don't know where it's going so you mentioned Braavos the description of society and Braavos that's not the last eastern society we get descriptions of and these Eastern societies are officer isolated from the plot in in Wes O's you know um I thought the reason why we were learning so much of a Provo see society and then as Tyrion escapes through a sauce we learn about several other sites was because of the significance of elections was that we were given a kind of real-world introduction to democracy so that democracy doesn't seem like some perfect ideal I mean of course if you really understand ancient Athens ancient Athens was not perfect but so that we have in contrast to feudalism like okay so these other societies and at first we just saw them in terms of slavery and that slavery is worse than freedom right which you know obviously the salted sure of ancient ancient roman in ancient Athens okay so slavery is a big deal but then as the books progressed bit by bit we find okay these people don't have a king there are not lords and so on they have elections and this changes the whole society now maybe that's meaningful and maybe it's not because we don't know where it's going yet so you know it's perfectly in character but I mean Tyrion doesn't get it the actual scenes where Tyrion is discussing democracy so I think there in volantis but they're on the road going east doesn't matter she's like oh ho ho this is delightful like oh yeah you know look at these elections isn't this charming you know but I mean Terenas just scoffing at it laughing at this as opposed to having a society where on the one hand you have people like Jaime Lannister in power because they're really good at killing people Jaime Lannister and Robert Baratheon both so the handsome physically massive murderous aristocrat and people like you Tyrion people who just have a name you just have a claim to a bloodline and have no other redeeming qualities and are worthless in battle you know I mean no offense if you're not gonna win any sword fights that area but because you're related to someone who once was good in a battle of something you know and you're in you push the peasants around so I mean you know that's that's something that could be meaningful as as the books progress you know George is also doing this thing that really reflects his background in in games so partly video games with a special tabletop board games which he's admitted he's doesn't done interviews about that role-playing games but real real real life folk playing at roping and on on on computers where it's like he's just kind of filling in the whole world with details to balance out like the game or it's like oh yeah yeah and then so these people have fire magic so then these other people have water magic and then these people have this other kind of magic and oh yeah yeah like Oh each of the kingdoms on the map of the Seven Kingdoms gets gets filled in that stuff to me seems really meaningless and really aimless and why are you asking the the reader to care about this yeah yeah no I don't have any experience with Dungeons & Dragons but it kind of brightens like that's right so like yeah like all the food you know that everyone has every house has a sigil one you're supposed to be right vaguely aware of what each house is sigil is as you're reading and what's the point I mean so yeah yeah uh no he know this even if nobody minutes it's obviously careful reading books when the books started being written he did not have the idea of who was behind the weirwoods so you know when bran gets to the north eventually there's the Magic Man in the tree yeah and the Magic Man in the tree is the same guy who appears for five minutes in the dunk and egg novels by the way the guy at the end Brendan rivers of Thousand Eyes and one so it's the in ship which again it's not that interesting I'm sorry it's not that bigger reveal the minor killer you might remember from the prequel to Volume one no-shows up living in the sub-basement of a ancient temple and the the north beyond the wall and we got one line which is very obvious before we thought of that there's one line from the the elderly maester at the wall that when he came north Brendan rivers came with him you know so that's that's it that's all the foreshadowing yeah um we have a vision in the flames from Melisandre which establishes that her enemy the enemy of her religion what she's against is brynan rivers is the the man in the tree so I mean this is another problem I've gotten this right okay but you still taking your word for look in terms of look what is the point of the religion of roll or these books were written at a time when America war in Iraq and Afghanistan was a big deal george RR martin his personal history goes back to vietnam war everyone knows this but obviously islam is a big deal and the religion of war enters the books originally the first significance we get is that they burn statues they burn idols it's iconoclastic you just like islam and they burn people you know they burn witches at the stake and so on right that's the initial you know significance of this and then it shifted so who is you know who is the great up or other or was it fitting us well originally we have the contrast between the kind of catholicism of the religion of the seven and the islam of you know the religion of role or and maybe that meant something and maybe that mattered maybe that was going one direction because george RR martin is extremely harsh critic of religion if you don't believe me read the different thousand world stories I've done YouTube videos in the past but like at this point I you know all of that has really become pretty pointless and aimless you know in my opinion so so so what there were dueling magicians now like it's just like Oh Melisandre is working for some you know somebody in a robe behind a you know behind a curtain like The Wizard of Oz somewhere there's The Wizard of Oz who's at war with the other Wizard of Oz who's you know behind the trees yeah I mean it's it's it's dumb I mean it's I I feel that's bad writing and I think it reflects the fact that when the books were started he will none of the stuff he didn't really have a structure he didn't really have a plan and I think the next book is taking so long to write you know whoa you know largely for those for those reasons right because he's trying to connect all these dots oh yes even look even fleshing Circe's character right even Cersei having this memory of her childhood dream that still haunts her going to see the fortune-teller right that that enters a little bit late guys I mean the bill for that that's right that's in feast for crows yeah yeah it's like oh yeah right by the way guys I have a motivation that explains my behavior up to this point in the future really yeah really though it's it's not even its gate so so how does that explain that you responded to the death of your husband whom you hated by trying to seduce Ned Stark like in terms of who she was but there was no plan there was no thought put into this like odo no her situation is that she's motivated by this you know you know this this childhood experiment the shape derp yeah I think I think that would be a different novel you know anyway and look I like I mean I basically am someone who thinks the books got better as they progressed and more interesting and I liked the writing from Circe's perspective and in the later books and so on I think it raises a lot of interesting interesting questions and again she's a mean the middle-aged person you know thinking about politics [Music] but yet you know so you may not know this babe my girlfriend may not know this one of the other notorious things is that George had planned and this isn't just at the beginning right up to the last minute right up to feast for crows dance with dragons his plan was to have the plot stop and then they have a five-year gap and then continue the plot five years later so one of the chapters from the winds of winter which isn't published yet but there are individual chapters that have been posted by the author publicly it has Aria having quite an active sex life so she's supposed to be five years older right so she was supposed to go from like 14 to 19 in the fighters captain and that never happened right and Jon Snow is like maybe 16 or something in his position of political power yeah again if there was the five-year gap or if there were five years that passed during which time the Nights Watch were getting more and more pissed off with his leadership before he's assassinated or something like it's hard to say where exactly in each of those storylines the five-year gap wouldn't maybe the fiber guy supposed to be after John's assess like he stays dead for five years but this is another I'm sorry it's just bad right in you know removing removing the five-year gap and then all the characters are too young for what had been sketched out on the fly absolutely margins of dorm the whole emergence of door of the south into the plot your in any perspective from dorm right right we're not sure is to be so and also not even in the dunk and egg novels by the way like you don't get any sense Thorne as an important place or you know we're as part of the political situation say you know oh alright there's this other place called thorn I'm sorry but the emergence of both Dorne and the Iron Islands in the later books it's it's bad writing yeah and like all of a sudden oh yeah yeah yeah there's this princess and she also has really big breasts and you're supposed to care a lot about her storyline all of a sudden even though like her only defining character traits or that she's really shallow and really stubborn and really short-sighted it really so she's a selfish dumb [ __ ] she has no yeah there's nothing interesting [ __ ] none of these people have any motivation I mean it's are any any interesting motivation yes something that we've talked about together is that you know I like in this book if he's four crows that you're now getting the perspective of poor people yes right who are not in positions of power right and you know you mentioned that that's probably why Duncan I guess interesting you these short as opposed to just the perspective of the most elite aristov Rasmus yeah I think one way that he could have I mean one way that he could have written it differently it is focused on these same characters in the same locations don't introduce more places yes try to stick to the characters that we already know within the first three books and maybe look at different perspectives and in future books rather than like yeah we're getting to know Dorne now through the perspective of both the right you know people in charge and and the people are not in charge but you know we why do we care about Dorn I mean we've been reading for some no pages already one oh why should we care about Dorn what's happening with Dothraki we have Dorn has managed to be so insignificant to the political situation up until now they can yeah right yeah like I personally really like that checkers with the wall and Johnson like I wish we would have more perspective and up there to not just John you know a little bit of Sam but believe me when you get to Old Town they're like 20 more named characters in old town wall matter who all are poor in their own way no like as a writer yet were you thinking about how can you write this up how are you ever going to wrap this up or this discussion is totally about the books and not about the TV show but there's a parallel challenge for writers which is the art of omission so like you know there are large parts of this story that could be omitted and could be more powerful that reason so you know this at least from the TV show of TV show did a terrible job with this but tyrion murders his own father and then he goes a little bit crazy areas this has a big emotional impact on him and his relationship with various prostitutes it's all kind of crashing down there okay you know what you don't need to see that it could be way more powerful if Tyrion murders his father and then he re-enters the plot years later and you just see how he's changed and you just you know it could be in there in two sentences and not from his perspective it's like yeah I used to be an aristocrat and now I'm like this wondering you know revenant this is what's left at me like nowhere it just shattered him where he's just you know he's G is devastated and you see that devastation but no like George's way of writing that is like here's Tyrion getting drunk again here's Tyrion being self pitying again here's Tyrion going to another brothel and sleeping with another prostitute and another one again and it's I mean I'm sorry but that too is bad writing maybe that's the bad writing that that's the easiest to ignore because people do care about Tyrion they already have enough invested in him but don't we change an abacus day a week who doesn't miss somebody goes through I mean yeah and one of the issues that is with that a writer oh that's a really good question Jo sorry but you won but does do any of the characters change as much as they should that's one of the issues with writing that you need to actually have character developing about these static characters that are not making any changes anyway right so yeah no I don't so I've mentioned this to my girlfriend before I read a book when I was a child some of you will guess what this book was the famous book I'm not gonna name it I read a book another child it's a mainstream corporate crap paperback book that a lot of children read and in that book up until almost exactly the halfway mark the main character he's motivated by revenge and it hits the halfway mark and he's like yes you know the time is coming one day he's gonna get revenge against the people who killed his parents the people who destroyed the village he came from his village was destroyed was something something like that and then there's like you know a couple of blank pages then it's part two and it's maybe just five years later yeah there's something like a five year gap but he's grown up he's a carrot all know and for me as a kid that that really struck me it was like whoa people change like when you're looking he was really young so let's say when when you were 13 years old you thought the most important thing on earth was getting revenge because your village got burnt out and now you're 23 and you're an experienced warrior and you know a lot of people's villages have been burnt down a lot of people are orphans you may know and you just moved on you have no interest in revenge on anyone you've got a totally immersive oh and that and again it was a dumb corporate kids book it's not a masterpiece it's not consider great literature but I remember as a kid it's like whoa so yeah I mean seeing that kind of character change it's obviously something we were looking for in the TV show even with somebody like John John Snow again that his plot has gone further in the TV show the boss is like nope dying and coming back from the dead just doesn't change you going going from being a down on your luck bastard who doesn't even think he's gonna survive the next few months you know at the wall in this crazy hopeless war badly written war gets the wild lengths to being in a position of tremendous power to you know being backstabbed betrayed by your friends and colleagues and you know no just same old same old John you know nothing's nothing's really changed so yeah the the the question of whether or not we get the character don't we we should be beginning I would guess the problem in the book is the five-year gap I mean how does Aria learn to speak Braavosi how does she change so much as soon as she gets off the boat I think they were supposed to be five years that passed in there and maybe something a little bit more a little bit more interesting and look I mean maybe is this I see I don't know how you feel with these chairs or how or how many of you done um does Jaime Lannister change enough is he our positive example or is he or is it or is it the same problem I mean we really only get to know Jaime after he's had his hand cut off right we don't really get to know so we get to know him later when he wait we get to see him after he's presumably made a big change in personality right where he's taking on the new direction and so on yeah yeah yeah I think so yeah I so I really really love those chapters the Jaime chapters on the first reading yeah yeah but I mean you know in the original plot for the books which again that's been leaked so we know what the original plot was he was basically just the villain he was just the scenery chomping evil villain he was the feeder of the story yeah and so I mean part of what's going on there is just George spontaneously adapting and changing bike for George that's what's interesting about it was like okay I started writing this guy's a villain and now here I am kind of unpacking different layers of them and finding things that are things that are redeeming or interesting or conflicted about him yeah I was like I feel like the character development of Sansa at least at the point that yes just because what she's you know what she's been through I guess what we think she'd be more cheated or you know rebellious in nature by this point oh okay so you know what I thought about mentions earlier and I wasn't going to just cuz it's it's past what you've read because so they're the finished books and then there were the leaks chapters four winds of winter but you already know this from the TV show and broad brushstrokes mm-hmm Sansa is abducted by Littlefinger right yeah and both of their motivations don't make sense after that point yeah if Littlefinger literally raped her or married her or imprisoned her or used her in a plot to take over political power in the north that could make sense there were kind of a million possibilities Littlefinger literally owns a brothel multiple brothels he literally tortures people that have mercilessly a Littlefinger is this incredibly evil vindictive character and the only soft spot he had is a sexual obsession with santa's mother who's now deceased that he transferred to Sansa and he started being sexually obsessed with Sansa from the minute he first met her so in terms of motivation in every way and now he's captured her in in almost impossible circumstances he snatches Sansa out of thing and now it would make sense if she were literally in Chains or if he were you know being King make her clean make her carrying out some plot with her or something what he actually does with her in both book and show makes no sense and her relationship to him also in my opinion uh makes no sense I mean if you even just think about the very first step if your little finger once you've captured Sam why would you take her to the veil and reunite her with her aunt even that does not make sense well I mean the point would be to take over the veil which he did in the books at least I don't write ok ok ok but you see no that's what that right no that's bad right but he's not no no wait wait wait wait wait wait that's bad right there's no way he could be planning to murder his wife will you know that's a totally spontaneous ridiculous situation there's no way he can be planning to murder his wife within like two days of getting married within a couple of days of getting married and to carry out the ridiculous spontaneous plot that happens to take over the veil there's no way that can be his plan at that point and even if he was gonna go back to cement the marriage to her and you know gain some kind of status in the veil by bringing Sansa there you know he's put he's putting her into the clutches of a crazy woman who knows who she really is and who has power over him and power over Sansa and can prevent him from marrying or having sex and Sansa who can destroy all of his plans all this short term and long term plans yeah and again he's he's a brothel keeper there were other things Jane pool a minor character or is you know raped and brutalized and turned into a prostitute and then later sold to Ramsay Bolton as Ramsay Bolton bride of the Jeyne Poole's subplot but I mean it in every way this is this ruthless cold guy I mean even if even if he kept Sansa locked up somewhere else when he went to the Vale that would move so everything why why do the different steps happen the plot that's absolutely you know all there is to it with with him I mean there you know if what he wants is what he wanted in book one it's you know it's not even really clear why he'd go to the Vale at all he could do almost anything you know at that stage yeah so just see to me that's that's bad writing on the big strategic level and then also I mean who is Sansa and how does she feel of a little set finger and what does she want and once what's her situation that does not make a whole what a sense either you know you could write San says just a week paying basket case you like just make her someone who's just totally overwhelmed by these situations but like oh sorry like five minutes ago you were married to the king well gonna be married to the king and then that was canceled that finally you were married to the wealthiest man in Westeros Tyrion Lannister and like you know I mean he's a dwarf but he's still dealing you know being married to a multi-millionaire in our in our times and so you know I mean there are all these you know vicissitudes she goes through and yeah what happens next with her doesn't make a lot of sense strategically or in terms of character analysis yeah yeah oh and just brings to mind so many different things in the plot like yeah that haven't been results I mean maybe maybe they have writer on like knows we're killing it who killed Joffrey you know like a little figure know to be there when okay so we do know because of this okay well if Jake if you think Littlefinger planned it if you think he conspired to plan it then he knew when to be there because he's guilty because he's implicated it right so let me sing with that's the conclusion most people come to you with the plot to kill Bram but then it is that Littlefinger must have been responsible for it because otherwise nothing makes sense and the other explanation is it's just really badly written so you know that if Littlefinger didn't orchestrate that you know yeah it also seems to convenient to plot to put all these major plot points on a little finger like this is his fault that's because he compensates for bad writing okay so look that you know whose apparel that is is Ramsay Bolton all right sorry this is another straight-up bad writing thing sir sir being a little finger-like one of the reveals is oh the letter written from Lysa to Catelyn to start the war was because of Littlefinger because it's in Littlefinger's interest to start this war no it's just bad writing oh yeah a little floppy mental okay that makes sense cuz otherwise nothing makes sense all right moving on Ramsay Bolton telepathic mastermind Ramsay volt is like oh by the way I have this disguise you're ready to go look he meets Theon like oh my name is reek I have this other identity later on no it's not I'm secretly Ramsay Bolton well I thought this plan will murder these two boys on the farm and do this thing is series of plot points there what's like if Ramsay Bolton is not telepathic yes see the future super 18 yes nothing he's doing makes sense and that continues right it continues not making sense Ramsay Bolton's plot so there are people who read the books like oh yeah no it's like Ramsay is certain is like secretly a green seer like you can see the futures I know it's just bad writing I think step by step everything that happened when Ramsay is is badly written and it's just like Oh George is an award-winning award-winning horror writer and that had to come out at some point so you know Timmy that seems totally you know improvised the point where wreath goes away to get help and then reek comes back with an army because he was Caesar Lee Ramsay Bolton all day nothing about this made sense damn ex machina and also you know the TV show does a good job with that where you know Aria disguises herself as a commoner but a Tyrion can tell she's not really he says you know you don't talk like a commoner like okay so Ramsay Bolton raised by the second most powerful and wealthy house in the north blah blah blah we know it's old background like oh yeah nobody can guess that you're not you know reek you know and nobody else around it acts like this is weird or really it's just bad writing so yeah okay then go I mean look guys the if you look at them as a whole the a Song of Ice and Fire books are a flawed masterpiece I think they're called a masterpiece for a reason but they are a badly flawed masterpiece and nobody wants to go back and fix the errors in the more than george RR martin himself I think he knows that I think he I think he's really burdened by that and that's part of why the novels are being written is so that the novels can start with something that's written where he's already aware of the ending including like oh yeah there's the Blackfyre rebellion and the war of the sixpenny kings and all this other stuff about the political situation and what was going on in King's Landing a hundred years before the plot started you know like what you know all this stuff he made up later that that isn't there in the first two or even three books we're never to go back and and rewrite the beginning the genesis of the pawn action alright well anyone who's watched the TV show whose line is it anyway we'll get this game of Thrones is like the book where everything's made up and the points don't matter but I'm gonna continue reading it I forget I mean I'm really in the fourth book and I saw a lot to go well if you guys ever take the time to read George RR Martin's thousand world books what he's really strong on his sentiment is writing a story around a sentiment around like just a feeling is what the story is supposed to evoke and you know he really was kind of an early proponent of idea driven short storytelling and really the only ones I can remember that were any good they were basically just anti-religion stuff like seven times never killed man a song for Ally aware was critique of of religion and you know he really challenged himself with this I feel that these books are in many ways a response to the malaise of American imperialism in his lifetime in the last twenty thirty years that American democracy has lost its appeal American the American Empire the endless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and his own memories of the Vietnam War and stuff and up see it's nothing he's against democracy he don't get me wrong but I think he's wrestling with you know a lot of these questions and it I think it evokes those sentiments powerfully you know a lot of this stuff and there is other stuff there I mean there's a lot of stuff in here about being fat there's a lot of stuff about wrestling with your own sexuality even Jamie Lannister dealing with his own celibacy and stuff there there are other themes there are things that come up and they work as kind of isolated sentiments story by story yeah as the books progress but there is a lot wrong with it and I think exactly his trick of having a last minute fix written in like oh it was little finger along oh it was vari so long worries all along his motivation was to plot a restoration of the Blackfyre dynasty the black fire dust he hadn't even been thought of during the writing of the first three books like oh yeah yeah we've added this in so varis as a motive no sir but you guys remember back in book one and even the first couple scenes of the TV show var eases motivation was supposed to be that he was passionately opposed to black magic or post a magic in general but also the whole bright storylines Stannis represented magic and his reason for opposing Stannis was that Stannis would bring bring back magic and religious fundamentalism so that was interesting was varies representing secularism and science and Stannis representing magic and frankly Islam okay that's a coffin now what's as far as represent oh I haven't seen him in forever okay so you know you've got oh yeah well there was this war like decades and decades ago and there's this other line of House Targaryen called the black fires and there's this secret plot and and that will work out better because yeah because reasons and he was secretly planning it all along it's lame all right look George is at this point the highest-paying survey the highest-paid non-productive author in the world he's being given millions of dollars to write this book the winds of winter that he to say he's behind schedule is is an understatement and we will see it's it's you know a complement to the guy to say that he has big shoes to fill because he created those shoes himself the shoes from the feel that he created himself but on the other hand I think a lot of us now read these books two and three times whenever I think a lot of us our expectations are low Rx I think what a lot of us are expecting to be disappointed the obviously the TV show is disappointed us all what's gonna happen when John snow gets up off that stone slab you know when it's resurrected I don't think he has anything meaningful to tell us I don't think Voorhies has anything meaningful cause I think the philosophy of Voorhies and Littlefinger and Jon Snow has already been exhausted if these novels and it's what what keeping something really fascinating brewing and safe was coming from Dawn I don't yeah so yeah I'm I'm still reading I'm still hoping I'm still listening to podcast talking about this stuff it's been a very evocative very inspiring series of novels for me but sadly there's just enough bad writing that that in terms of what I expect to come next my expectations are low five