Ethics, activism, egoism, acne. (Chat w. Ask Yourself)
26 June 2019 [link youtube]
Should I include "virtue ethics" as a topic here? / vegan / vegans / veganism / street activism / Jeff Nelson / Vegsource / Ask Yourself / Faraday Speaks / Caleb Cain
Youtube Automatic Transcription
that's true it's like one of those
things it seems trivially easy to explain but it's such an easy error when you're actually having a discussion Isaac do you do you feel that you talk to a lot of people who are sincerely interested in discussing ethics of the sake of ethics okay Mike my feeling is that most people what they care about is feeling important feeling smart feeling good feeling self-esteem feeling pride and that's one of the reasons why I think talking about virtue ethics I mean I think virtue ethics appeals to people because of its it's not as ethical it appears appeals more to egoism and I I just think it's very rare to talk to people I mean even what you're just mentioning D railing into meta ethics I think it shows a fundamental lack of interest in ethics but people I interact with some really high percentage of them are genuine it's more like a statement where I talk to so many people that for sure even if it's a radical minority there's still enough people that are legitimately interested in ethics that I could say I talk to a lot of people who are legitimately interested in ever happening so again this is totally gonna work over six foot tall it's not that a big percent when people are over six foot tall but if I have a job where I talked like thousand people a day then of course I talked a lot of them even if they're minority of the overall people so totally agree totally understanding good other good comparison is if you work in a in a sneaker store you know you meet a lot of people with size thirteen shoes or whatever you know depending on when you're in I think a lot of people don't appreciate like it's very rare to talk to a lot of vegans I've now talked to thousands and thousands of vegans over the last five years because so I just asked this this totally you know open-ended question it's not it's not a gotcha question or something gee do you find the same kind of thing when you talk to people on the street because I know you've done some Street activism with with whatever with street activist groups by the same yeah do you think they're really interested in in ethics as such or do you think it's something else that's that's the hug that gets me but that's also because the type of activist might do when I do do it there's the selection there's like a filter there so I've only really done activism what ad and when they need the people who actually stay and watch it how being slaughtered in front of them usually some some good percentage of things we're actually going to sit there for that like to stand and watch it actually you care so that's not to say the average person on the street has some evil concerns but when you select those chunk of people who will stand there and watch that some soup significant portion of them actually seem to be concerned about my what's recently just kind of shocked me about the role of egoism I mean I don't feel I was under estimating the importance of egoism but lately I've been talking to this guy Faraday speaks Faraday speaks had okay so Faraday speaks had one hit YouTube video and it was covered by CNN the New York Times he got the front page in the New York Times so the story itself is not mentioning it though but he had a story about how the actual title of video of the thumbnail said how he became racist it was dealing with him that he had a period where he became more and more right-wing more more racist from watching YouTube videos but that that was front page of the New York Times as well as having CNN and other mainstream press coverage in the number of viewers that mainstream press coverage drove to his YouTube channel was almost zero whose unbelievable how little viewership that you're beyond that made me sit back and think wow because I remember I've been doing the vegan YouTube game but before you came on the scene and it used to be if there was like some really crappy coverage of veganism by Oprah or by like an Australian newspaper or by a British like one of the British morning talk shows all of those would drive so much traffic - like the whole vegan ecosystem but also the particular youtuber is mentioned and really maybe stuff think wow those people like the front page in the New York Times is not as powerful as weight loss that like I've been underestimate extent to which all interest in our movement is you know underwritten by vanity you know yeah one ask you one thing about virtue ethics like I know that there there clearly is some kind of virtue component to your ethical system but surely there is also a consequential yes sure yeah so like any question where you say you shouldn't do this so so I I could I can argue my against myself on this I think so I mean like you know to attack myself more vigorously you know if someone had a virtue ethics that had no connection to real-world consequences then by definition they would be you know it would be like someone who paints paintings and thinks they're the greatest painter in the world but nobody wants to buy the paintings nobody wants to see them it would it would be an ego trip detach from reality right sure yeah sure it just doesn't come up much you know what how often do you have to deal with somebody who thinks through a really great artist but nobody wants to buy or see their work and how often deal with somebody who thinks they were great athlete or fashion model I mean we did I think we did within the vegan movement sometimes it's just most often any kind of virtue is linked to real world utility your outcomes in some way without you having to argue for it yeah just a philosophical because the Phillip persons philosophically minded will be like okay is per to necessarily coupled to those components if it's non negative situation right virtually the consequences are really bad if the guy just cares about virtue he asked they're not aired and upon sponsor right so a great example right well I think a great example is vegan activism itself and to throw in a really quick parallel something like the Vietnam War you could meet and talk to people who really sincerely signed up to fight in the Vietnam War because they felt the people of Vietnam should have democracy and freedom of speech and be able to vote and elect their government and then what they actually got involved with in the Vietnam War might have been rape and torture and massacres what they actually did in Vietnam war might be shall we say not so virtuous and you know I have people writing me every day from different angles just just lately for whatever reason had a bunch more people writing to me you know it's not constant but it comes in EPS and flows and a bunch will be writing to me about their negative experiences vegan activism Covino obviously they got involved for ethical reasons and then a certain idea of themselves as being virtuous or become virtuous and at some point they look back and say what what am I doing here was this just by clicking you think is the worst so for the record my nickname here was Slayer of Ewoks but you changed it that was busy and I just changed it back without paying too much attention so I'm happy to change mine to came back to Slayer of Ewoks I hope she wants me going who was the worst person in veganism right now a spirit [Laughter] gee you know I got sympathy I got sympathy for all that the terrible people you know across the board but you know what you know who would probably is honestly it's probably Jeff Nelson it's probably what is right now um both yes so veg source yes that's right so I guess I guess the reason for my saying Jeff Nelson is both if you look at what he is doing and what he's not doing so like the negative impact he's having and also the tremendous potential or ability as he's linked positive and that that that's not happening you know that that's being squandered so yeah you may not know but lately he's engaged in one dishonest squabble after another attacking the credibility of different vegan medical doctors and claiming that he's standing up for science versus pseudoscience and it's really janky so yeah he has a long history of this and you know he took me on too you know denouncing me publicly and stuff too which is not that big a deal I mean but still he has this long weird history of being um kind of drama queen and the thing is he does have a kind of position of privilege and influence and power partly because he's based in LA he's the guy who organizes the the annual LA veg fest and probably cuz he's been the game for so long he were he ran the website veg source before he came on youtube so yeah that's an influential powerful person who has been I guess a bad actor in political science terms well so it's one thing after another but recently for example he tried to make a big deal out of accusing accusing the doctors of being motivated by selling supplements and that the doctors are lying about the health benefits for vegans taking I believe DHA supplements other some of those special special fad supplements that attacking doctors for you know allegedly being self-interested money motivated he had another series of videos these are just looking at its channel there's like so much about that's right that's right and the funny thing is it's also you must review and I'm sure you really you're just looking at it now ostensibly it seems very you know well motivated and if we write it like in terms of your prima facie reaction you just see the title so the videos like oh wow this is really really important this critique of something wrong and medicines and then the other irony is so you know I just did a video criticizing Jeff for the diet he and his daughters now promote he and his daughters together promote a very peculiar to my head and there were problems with it there are there are scientific problems and in terms of the effects in people's lives there are there are problems too as my girlfriend went to it well the diet that what they did was the reason why it so just to be clear the diet is co-written by his daughters and in reality him he's very much the force behind it and it also has kind of introductions and comments and endorsements from various more famous medical authorities and it promises to be the diet that will cure acne and obviously it's primarily for a female readership so in terms of what I'm gonna ask the question what is the diet though they basically took a doctor MacDougall's most extreme diet and made it a little bit more extreme cuz mcdougal you know he has more than one diet depending on what your what your situation is but mcdougal mcdougal is one diet that's called something like the diet for maximum weight loss like for people who are really trying to shed a lot of weight which is you know so anyway he mcdougal has a range of recommendations but it is one of MacDougall's recommendations and then they step it up even further and add an elimination element to it so for example it starts off being a very very low fruit diet you're very limited on a fruity every day but then if it's not working you eliminate fruit entirely and in the same way you eliminate and eliminate becomes more and more extreme if you're not getting the results you want but the promise that it'll cure acne given that acne is hormonal for a very significant percentage of women it's gonna lead to a downward spiral for other women so there are there are problems with it I just went through that with my girlfriend [Music] you're gonna make a claim with this diet care that it should have some data right right so I mean they do the thing is with acne acne is one symptom caused by many things so you know if you have acne because kuku good man Richard yeah
things it seems trivially easy to explain but it's such an easy error when you're actually having a discussion Isaac do you do you feel that you talk to a lot of people who are sincerely interested in discussing ethics of the sake of ethics okay Mike my feeling is that most people what they care about is feeling important feeling smart feeling good feeling self-esteem feeling pride and that's one of the reasons why I think talking about virtue ethics I mean I think virtue ethics appeals to people because of its it's not as ethical it appears appeals more to egoism and I I just think it's very rare to talk to people I mean even what you're just mentioning D railing into meta ethics I think it shows a fundamental lack of interest in ethics but people I interact with some really high percentage of them are genuine it's more like a statement where I talk to so many people that for sure even if it's a radical minority there's still enough people that are legitimately interested in ethics that I could say I talk to a lot of people who are legitimately interested in ever happening so again this is totally gonna work over six foot tall it's not that a big percent when people are over six foot tall but if I have a job where I talked like thousand people a day then of course I talked a lot of them even if they're minority of the overall people so totally agree totally understanding good other good comparison is if you work in a in a sneaker store you know you meet a lot of people with size thirteen shoes or whatever you know depending on when you're in I think a lot of people don't appreciate like it's very rare to talk to a lot of vegans I've now talked to thousands and thousands of vegans over the last five years because so I just asked this this totally you know open-ended question it's not it's not a gotcha question or something gee do you find the same kind of thing when you talk to people on the street because I know you've done some Street activism with with whatever with street activist groups by the same yeah do you think they're really interested in in ethics as such or do you think it's something else that's that's the hug that gets me but that's also because the type of activist might do when I do do it there's the selection there's like a filter there so I've only really done activism what ad and when they need the people who actually stay and watch it how being slaughtered in front of them usually some some good percentage of things we're actually going to sit there for that like to stand and watch it actually you care so that's not to say the average person on the street has some evil concerns but when you select those chunk of people who will stand there and watch that some soup significant portion of them actually seem to be concerned about my what's recently just kind of shocked me about the role of egoism I mean I don't feel I was under estimating the importance of egoism but lately I've been talking to this guy Faraday speaks Faraday speaks had okay so Faraday speaks had one hit YouTube video and it was covered by CNN the New York Times he got the front page in the New York Times so the story itself is not mentioning it though but he had a story about how the actual title of video of the thumbnail said how he became racist it was dealing with him that he had a period where he became more and more right-wing more more racist from watching YouTube videos but that that was front page of the New York Times as well as having CNN and other mainstream press coverage in the number of viewers that mainstream press coverage drove to his YouTube channel was almost zero whose unbelievable how little viewership that you're beyond that made me sit back and think wow because I remember I've been doing the vegan YouTube game but before you came on the scene and it used to be if there was like some really crappy coverage of veganism by Oprah or by like an Australian newspaper or by a British like one of the British morning talk shows all of those would drive so much traffic - like the whole vegan ecosystem but also the particular youtuber is mentioned and really maybe stuff think wow those people like the front page in the New York Times is not as powerful as weight loss that like I've been underestimate extent to which all interest in our movement is you know underwritten by vanity you know yeah one ask you one thing about virtue ethics like I know that there there clearly is some kind of virtue component to your ethical system but surely there is also a consequential yes sure yeah so like any question where you say you shouldn't do this so so I I could I can argue my against myself on this I think so I mean like you know to attack myself more vigorously you know if someone had a virtue ethics that had no connection to real-world consequences then by definition they would be you know it would be like someone who paints paintings and thinks they're the greatest painter in the world but nobody wants to buy the paintings nobody wants to see them it would it would be an ego trip detach from reality right sure yeah sure it just doesn't come up much you know what how often do you have to deal with somebody who thinks through a really great artist but nobody wants to buy or see their work and how often deal with somebody who thinks they were great athlete or fashion model I mean we did I think we did within the vegan movement sometimes it's just most often any kind of virtue is linked to real world utility your outcomes in some way without you having to argue for it yeah just a philosophical because the Phillip persons philosophically minded will be like okay is per to necessarily coupled to those components if it's non negative situation right virtually the consequences are really bad if the guy just cares about virtue he asked they're not aired and upon sponsor right so a great example right well I think a great example is vegan activism itself and to throw in a really quick parallel something like the Vietnam War you could meet and talk to people who really sincerely signed up to fight in the Vietnam War because they felt the people of Vietnam should have democracy and freedom of speech and be able to vote and elect their government and then what they actually got involved with in the Vietnam War might have been rape and torture and massacres what they actually did in Vietnam war might be shall we say not so virtuous and you know I have people writing me every day from different angles just just lately for whatever reason had a bunch more people writing to me you know it's not constant but it comes in EPS and flows and a bunch will be writing to me about their negative experiences vegan activism Covino obviously they got involved for ethical reasons and then a certain idea of themselves as being virtuous or become virtuous and at some point they look back and say what what am I doing here was this just by clicking you think is the worst so for the record my nickname here was Slayer of Ewoks but you changed it that was busy and I just changed it back without paying too much attention so I'm happy to change mine to came back to Slayer of Ewoks I hope she wants me going who was the worst person in veganism right now a spirit [Laughter] gee you know I got sympathy I got sympathy for all that the terrible people you know across the board but you know what you know who would probably is honestly it's probably Jeff Nelson it's probably what is right now um both yes so veg source yes that's right so I guess I guess the reason for my saying Jeff Nelson is both if you look at what he is doing and what he's not doing so like the negative impact he's having and also the tremendous potential or ability as he's linked positive and that that that's not happening you know that that's being squandered so yeah you may not know but lately he's engaged in one dishonest squabble after another attacking the credibility of different vegan medical doctors and claiming that he's standing up for science versus pseudoscience and it's really janky so yeah he has a long history of this and you know he took me on too you know denouncing me publicly and stuff too which is not that big a deal I mean but still he has this long weird history of being um kind of drama queen and the thing is he does have a kind of position of privilege and influence and power partly because he's based in LA he's the guy who organizes the the annual LA veg fest and probably cuz he's been the game for so long he were he ran the website veg source before he came on youtube so yeah that's an influential powerful person who has been I guess a bad actor in political science terms well so it's one thing after another but recently for example he tried to make a big deal out of accusing accusing the doctors of being motivated by selling supplements and that the doctors are lying about the health benefits for vegans taking I believe DHA supplements other some of those special special fad supplements that attacking doctors for you know allegedly being self-interested money motivated he had another series of videos these are just looking at its channel there's like so much about that's right that's right and the funny thing is it's also you must review and I'm sure you really you're just looking at it now ostensibly it seems very you know well motivated and if we write it like in terms of your prima facie reaction you just see the title so the videos like oh wow this is really really important this critique of something wrong and medicines and then the other irony is so you know I just did a video criticizing Jeff for the diet he and his daughters now promote he and his daughters together promote a very peculiar to my head and there were problems with it there are there are scientific problems and in terms of the effects in people's lives there are there are problems too as my girlfriend went to it well the diet that what they did was the reason why it so just to be clear the diet is co-written by his daughters and in reality him he's very much the force behind it and it also has kind of introductions and comments and endorsements from various more famous medical authorities and it promises to be the diet that will cure acne and obviously it's primarily for a female readership so in terms of what I'm gonna ask the question what is the diet though they basically took a doctor MacDougall's most extreme diet and made it a little bit more extreme cuz mcdougal you know he has more than one diet depending on what your what your situation is but mcdougal mcdougal is one diet that's called something like the diet for maximum weight loss like for people who are really trying to shed a lot of weight which is you know so anyway he mcdougal has a range of recommendations but it is one of MacDougall's recommendations and then they step it up even further and add an elimination element to it so for example it starts off being a very very low fruit diet you're very limited on a fruity every day but then if it's not working you eliminate fruit entirely and in the same way you eliminate and eliminate becomes more and more extreme if you're not getting the results you want but the promise that it'll cure acne given that acne is hormonal for a very significant percentage of women it's gonna lead to a downward spiral for other women so there are there are problems with it I just went through that with my girlfriend [Music] you're gonna make a claim with this diet care that it should have some data right right so I mean they do the thing is with acne acne is one symptom caused by many things so you know if you have acne because kuku good man Richard yeah