Nina and Randa Say "Everyone is Beautiful", WE DON'T.
11 December 2018 [link youtube]
Real talk about ugliness and the unexamined life. "Inner beauty" isn't what people pretend it to be; "outer beauty" might be MERELY what people pretend it to be, or less.
Featuring the off-camera voice of Melissa, who has her own channel over here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVLWpNJZtA-FHunSIRS5xtw/videos
Support the creation of new content on this channel for $1 per month, and talk to me if you wanna, here: https://www.patreon.com/a_bas_le_ciel/
Youtube Automatic Transcription
this is a little intro we recorded at
the last minute after we wrapped up this thirty minute discussion of these issues because it really seemed to both of us that there was there was an important question underlying a lot of what we said but we never really made it explicit enough and the question is this are you hurting people or are you helping them through flattery and maybe one of the most fundamental misconceptions in our culture is that flattery is helpful rather than harmful so we've spent a lot of time on airplanes and we watched a movie together on the airplane a couple months ago and otherwise we wouldn't watch this movie it's a film called the disaster artist and it's a film about a film it relates to an earlier film that was called the room you guys don't need to know the background story but one of the crucial elements is that there is a mentally disabled guy who was struggling to become an actor in Hollywood and a lot of people were saying to him you'll never make it you can never do this this isn't for you now he also wasn't conventionally good-looking I mean peculiar as everyone says in the film everyone told him he could play a vampire where he could play a monster but he couldn't be a kind of handsome lead which is what he wanted to be you want to be a romantic leading man and his mental disability was caused by a car accident caused by brain damage from impact or injury so it wasn't that he was born mentally disabled so the film is interesting in many other ways I'm not going to talk about that here but what Melissa asked me at the u.s. dies we were getting off the plane you said you know I want I want to know your your honest opinion on this but is it really a good thing for everyone else in this man's life to be enabling him if you have a mentally disabled person is it really good is it helpful or harmful for all these other people to be telling you telling them you're good enough you're smart enough you can do it you know and it's already built into the question that really the answer is no so it seems like virtue it seems kind and it seems helpful to tell someone but like even if it's like simple someone who's bad at math telling them oh no honey you're good at math in your own way you can do this well if you keep encouraging them and flattering them and then they actually spend fifty thousand dollars going to college trying to get a degree in math we're trying to get a degree in theoretical physics and they're not really good at math or you are you helping them or harming them obviously this is this is something harmful even if it's presented as as flattery um so I mean something else is in the fullness of this videos thirty minute video Melissa talks about the fact that she really grew up with people telling her that she was mature for her age and I mean maybe this helped build up her self-confidence but in some ways as we discussed here it was really a false self confidence and she had a kind of crushing realization at a certain point that she really wasn't mature for age this was just something people had flattered her about over and over again so in this video we talk about ugliness we talk about real ugliness like being born you know seriously hideously deformed we're ugliness is a real fact your daily life we talk about the relative relations of publicly perceived beauty and plainness and ugliness we talk about you know the whole range here but I think one thing we didn't say explicitly enough really comes down to the morality of the lie the morality of deception and encouraging others in their self-deception through flattery I do not see it as morally positive to tell someone you can be a runway model you can be a fashion model you can be a beauty icon when really they can't when really that's not the type of beauty they have now again the example about to go into I would not even tell everyone you have what it takes to learn Chinese I know better than most some people have what it takes and some people don't I would not tell everyone you have what it takes to learn Cambodian or you have it what it takes to learn poly I wouldn't even tell everyone you have what it takes to study Shakespeare you know with English being a person I don't I think I think there's something really meaningful about being honest in telling people this is what it takes have you got what it takes whether it's tangible physical beauty or strength or athleticism or self-discipline whether it's any of these characteristics but yeah for the next thirty minutes ladies and gentlemen I hope you take something meaningful from what for us was a meaningful discussion about physical beauty ugliness and ultimately about the lies we tell ourselves the lies we tell others it's hard to be honest about the advantages and disadvantages were born with in life now I was with my girlfriend for about a year and a half before I said to her you know I think you are actually talented at learning Chinese I think you actually have a combination of characteristics part of which just has to do with memorization accuracy and speaking kind of diligence in written note taking a bunch of things that I'd seen over year and a half and I said look I've sat next to and worked with a whole bunch of different white people while they were learning Chinese some some Hispanics and some black people but humbly there's no point you know saying anything else here and you know I do really think you have a lot of advantages over other Westerners when they when they started learning Chinese when they went through this process I think this is something you can be not just mediocre at or scraped by up but be great at right now by the same token there must be other people I would say the opposite to right it must be there's no way this is the problem the the response Nina and Randa made to my criticism was how dare you call any person ugly everyone is beautiful and to say any one person not not that they're ugly fundamentally but that they are too ugly to be a model they're too ugly to be paid to be beautiful in an advertisement for soap or fashion like that's weird I am bitter you know if it's an advertisement for a candy bar you know whatever I'm not sometimes they're playing or even ugly people in advertising it happens um it doesn't make sense intellectually physically or otherwise and I mean I think a lot of us I mean within our own families or within our own circle of friends whether you do it gently or harshly there's a process of trying to say you know look you're never gonna be you know you're never gonna be an actor you know this is not the past path for you or look you know I mean even with music right you know people and they're okay as a musician their ability to play the guitar the ability this thing is is okay but I mean you can spin it one or two ways you can say look either you're never gonna make it you don't have what it takes but you might also say look if you do make it it's just luck because you don't have what it takes I mean you know if you're if you're fundamentally too ugly to be a model but you're born rich and your parents have connections and you keep going to auditions in LA right right right and sooner sooner or later you manage to get a little bit of work well well okay but the point would still stand where you don't really have this talent you don't really you don't really have what it takes yeah so look I mean okay we we can talk primarily or entirely about the physical side of it you know my girlfriend was just saying I mean look I I think there really is a difference between biologically real ugliness and the the fashions and trends that come and go in our society or our culture you know I saw a debate on British television so you know England England Scotland and Wales they have a somewhat different healthcare system from Canada the United States and there was a surgeon there who was advocating for in blunt language people who were ugly beyond a certain threshold should be able to get plastic surgery for free on their faces and I remember during the interview they put up a photograph of one of his one of his clients and he said well look you know how can you justify this you know what this person got a nose job but their original nose is not that bad it's not like they have two noses and I remember the the plastic surgeon said back some people have two noses you know he was he was kind of dead serious on that you know I think that's I think that's really true I mean there are some people who are born really deformed or three Oh medical conditions real problems and I mean if that's your child or that's your brother if that's your friend in school being honest with them about what this life means that how to get ahead and what-have-you yeah that's that's one thing now I mean okay so there are many many steps and stages removed from that there are people who grow up or or as fully grown as adults the fully grown adults feel um I'm not beautiful in the same way as these people are magazine covers you know this I'm not as beautiful as what's currently celebrated in hip-hop videos if what you listen to is hip-hop or whatever is going on in country music or whatever whatever whatever genre or something you know but look so modes well you know what's your approach that it's unwell or live with embarrassment yeah so I will say an anecdote I will tell an anecdote I just recently took a certification course to get certified to teach English as a second language right and in this there was an exercise she was given the teacher who was doing the program you know she was giving an example of what you might share in class as a listening exercise exercise and it was listening to this song you're beautiful by James Blunt right and in preparation for this before she even played the song she asked the question to the class like okay so split up into groups and talk with amongst yourselves what does it mean to be beautiful what does Beauty mean to you and once we gathered as a whole class and shared our answers it became clear to me that I think people are really uncomfortable talking about beauty in a physical sense or just matters of skin deep a lot of people were trying to focus on inner beauty yeah and I really was wondering because I had a friend who was originally from China shows so she's from Shanghai and I know just discussions about beauty there they're more blunt over there yep in China they they really focus on physical beauty and they're honest with you if you're not beautiful or like you know you've said you've had professors who will who will say you know I can tell you've gained weight since I saw you or something you know they're very um and it's not it's not necessarily being rude and it's not necessarily just to make the other person feel bad so anyway I was wondering what what she was going to say but I think she's she's had so much experience with Western culture that she was able to say like oh well we just focused on inner beauty you know we talked about being a nice person being a kind giving loving person rather than talking about physical beauty and I thought it was funny I was the only person in class like the person that I was talking with kind of laughed at me like she just burst out laughing because I went the first thing I said when we split up into groups was uh not being deformed cracks up and I think like part of humor is what is not okay to say in everyday life and like I wonder when that happened because you know I grew up in a very recently that's obvious but everywhere concealed yeah right exactly yeah that's that's so true um but yeah I grew up in a politically correct culture and I you know I I think I was at the start of this oppression Olympics that is going on and I know I political pundits they say that Millennials are so I pretty hypersensitive that they can't take criticism and yeah you know as we walk around I've seen spray-painted signs like everyone is beautiful they're like you are beautiful right you know and it's become so meaningless if everybody is beautiful what does it mean and anything this is something I think most people struggle with most people will think about in terms of physical beauty it's something that you're insecure about because well so I mean there's several kind of false dichotomies are false distinctions here but I mean one is the assumption that if we switch from talking about real beauty to inner beauty that we're going from something judgemental to something non-judgmental like something that's more inclusive no so I mean okay so if we if we agree not everyone has outer beauty does everyone have inner beauty if we agree not everyone likes to be judged for their outer beauty isn't it more hurtful doesn't it sting more when you're being judged and your inner beauty because guess what some people are ugly inside and out and some people say so I mean what's the point we just move on to a kind of deeper form of judgment or credit you know you share too much dirty laundry but I mean like I before I have been with you I have not had somebody like I really appreciate donna ste from you and i know you've said this in other videos that like you know other I really appreciate that you tell me if I'm being a [ __ ] basically because like or if I'm not being a good partner because it's really important to be loving and respectful and treat the other person with dignity and it's so strange to me how the the closest people in your life the people will never tell you yeah they won't tell you that you know you're being a [ __ ] like you need I just put in a quick example here this is not an offensive example at all but we were in a hotel in Detroit and we were walking up the stairs past the check-in desk and Melissa spoke to the front desk without thinking about it I mean she didn't mean it in a mean way but I pointed out to Melissa I said you know like if you were in England you'd be absolutely scorned that was really rude that was really contemptuous and dismissed at the way you talked to the front desk and I know Melissa like I can interpret her intention behind her words and stuff I can tell if she didn't mean to be but I mean that was really sorry in terms of like talking about you know what it you know being a [ __ ] or having a point out to you or something so and that was you know that was uh and again I mean at the moment you were kind of momentarily upset by it but you did kind of like yeah you know what taking the five seconds to actually make eye contact with the hotel staff and say hey sorry you know I have a question you know what just that that little bit of lead-in and not just shouting across the room you want the hotel staff to do that's so I just say you know that's that is the kind of thing we're talking about here yeah go ahead even inner beauty like even like being a loving person I think that we are in this generation we are quick to call somebody beautiful on the inside too even if they're not right like people might say that about sorry the topic of Congress you know that is bringing about this conversation is Nina and Randa you know like I think they get a lot of positive comment of feedback and sorry I mean I don't I don't need to talk about it in general but like you and me I've you I've had instances where you know I have had beliefs about myself that have been totally thrown into question you know like when I was growing up I was told by people around me that I was mature for my age that I was just had some you know some level of wisdom that was better than you know because I think I think I was always more like no more but you know I was somewhat responsible for myself you know like I didn't over I didn't binge drink and you pass out on the floor or something you know like I took care of myself and in this way I tended to think of myself as mature but then like you know in a series of what has happened in our relationship I mean like we've we've been through a lot of stuff and it's mostly because of me and you know you told me like you know we'll see you've told me that you're mature for your age but but you're really not and that that really that really like stung well I'm stung more than hearing anything about like oh you're not curvy you know because it's true like I can recognize it now and I'm comfortable like I mean I I you know trying to build muscle to be fit more fitting like healthy and healthy-looking but you know I wasn't born with large breasts I wasn't born with the genetics that predispose me for that and that's it's fine it's cool I mean some people like it some people must think Nina and Rand are attractive you know um and it's okay for you to voice that you know it's okay for you to voice that you don't find attractive in the same way it's okay to voice that you do you know if other people do that's fine you that's a matter of well I mean look you know exactly these things whether it's inner beauty or outer beauty it's funny how much it changes when we move past this totally vague abstract compliment to anything particular so like if you say everyone is beautiful not everyone has large breasts and this is a separate discourse but we've had a bunch of videos who watch things respond to you dealing with this is part most because of kal-el kal-el has a bunch of health problems and they may or may not be related to her breast implants and her numerous plastic surgeries kal-el wanted to look like somebody biologically she could never be she wanted to have large breasts my impression is she wanted to look like a Playboy model I remember her getting really upset when she made a visit to the Playboy Mansion that's why I mentioned Playboy's I hadn't seen that many of her videos I remember seeing a video where she visited the Playboy Mansion how much that meant to her that she wants to look like a Playboy bunny and she can she never will you know now obviously kal-el has a lot of advantages over like 98% of humanity and she was good-looking enough to get by in this life again coming back to that that interview with the plastic surgeon some people have two noses I mean some people have really deformed faces and I think it's an interesting question should the taxpayer you know should public health provide free corrective surgery to people with certain kinds of deformities even when they're just aesthetic and what kind of impact that can have on someone's life because I've known people no not my close friends but I have known people with genuinely deformed faces and and genuine deformed bodies but my point was with kal-el ultimately you've got to come back to saying recreational surgery has really high risks and it's in almost all circumstances it's wrong and we saw some YouTube videos dealing with the the horrifying health effects that again maybe twenty of twenty percent of people get with with presidents it's not that a hundred percent of people have this reaction but having breast implants it's a foreign object inside your body and your immune system reacts to it there are all these there are all these problems you know built into it so you know you want to say everyone is beautiful well not everyone has large breasts and of course that's not the only criterion of beauty but if you think women aren't hung up about having large breasts what about men and large penises versus small penises because there are some female beauty icons who have small breasts there are some female porn stars who have small breasts so right my point is there somewhere large or somewhere small but even in pornography let alone runway models for fashion or something or actresses at any given time there are plenty of actresses with more flat-chested or have small breasts right there are no male porn stars with small penises there is no there's no positive association with with that and of course men do get surgery to have to have a bigger penis you know yeah I mean you know sir but there's no you know there are many different female body types that are considered beautiful but for straight men I think there's a little bit more actually you know with with with gay men there's a little bit more diversity but for straight men nobody wants to be weak nobody wants to be small nobody wants to be short and even when they become famous for the reasons I've never heard of dude say he wants to look like Prince Prince the performing artist r.i.p i mean it you know everyone wants to look like dmx nobody nobody wants to look like Takashi 6-9 I just started to view about their these are two different rappers but Takashi 6:9 is small and weak he's maybe five foot seven he looks like he could never win in a fist fight and DMX is that dude everyone's afraid to have a fist fight with that's I'm so it's it's very unfair and you know sir I said this I can't remember this was years you're less than citizens Channel but like I'm not on an ego trip would I go to the gym most days not every day I may be the weakest guy in the gym I'm bench pressing 220 pounds or whatever I'm doing that particular day and there were guys there lifting 400 pounds that's you know depends on what GM you go to depends on what it is I'm not you know I'm not deluded I'm not out of touch I'm gonna tell you the reality is that's I mean that's physically the contract is issue about I mean these compliments people give you it's interesting that really impacted you I don't think that type of a flattery impacted me growing up kind of a different question but it's real easy to say to somebody you're mature for your age and I think you kind of skipped over what the real reasons would be you got a job you started she started having normal jobs early you got a straight job you kind of wear normal-looking clothes you know you don't know I mean you're not dressing in a teenage rebel style you're not dressing punk rock you're not dressing emo you're not dressing hip-hop you're kind of dressing in a professional way you have a job you have an income you're living and ostensibly and outwardly responsible life now beneath the surface actually during that period of your life there were a lot of things wrong but that's not what adults I'm saying so but again it's the same thing like if we're going to talk about inner beauty well if some people are mature for their age for one thing that's got to have advantages and disadvantages and not everybody can be mature for the range right I mean so some people are immature for the range so some people are living a lie or whatever me know and what what is that what does that mean so yeah that's but I think in terms of your self-image that was one of the biggest turning points you had in the last let's say two years to round off I remember that the first time we talked about that that really had a huge impact you we had several conversations about it but you were 25 at the time and I said look you know Melissa I can remember what it was like to be 25 and of course at the University and even within okay-y even within vegan activism you know I know a lot of people 24 25 years old is this kind of age and I said you know I know you pride yourself in this and now you say you're mature for your age but you're not like oh you well now and someone lets you know let's talk about what it's we what would someone be like they're mature right at 24 talk about yeah yeah that was those kind of a real real interesting turning point yeah yeah but look you know what's you look so I'm I'm in love with Melissa you know I think we're building a good life and a good future together I was gonna make a separate video with this in this point on this this issue but you know for me like the first whole year we were together the main priority of my life was building this relationship and I studied way less Chinese I really basically stopped studying Chinese I was still living in China speaking Chinese every day and I was teaching class writing Chinese on the board and speaking Chinese to the students so I was getting practice but I basically stopped studying for the whole year and now we're talking about getting serious about working on Chinese together kind of semi serious at the moment that was that was a big big priority for me but I never lied to you about or you know like your your boyfriend you risk before me I think he told you all the time you were basically the most beautiful woman in the world and whatever you know I mean there's nothing wrong with that I mean but it's funny I mean people who grow up whether they grow up with it just from their own family or from their boyfriends or husbands or men who are in love with them being told that you're so beautiful and you're the apogee of beauty as opposed to being with someone like me who's realistic with you who says look I love you and I love you for various reasons and various redeeming qualities you have you know no I mean you know you I remember I mean look you know you are not the most beautiful woman I've met you're not the most beautiful woman who's hit on me or offered have sex with me and sometime I mean times living in Asia it's may not be even this month there's something maybe a lot of women trying to get at me and that I'm turning down and I'm refusing you know this this is the reality of my life there are other women both face to face in real life hitting on me there at that time when you when I first got together by email or by facebook you know there were really good-looking women trying to get at me you know and then then it stops because you know but me but have you seen what is the morally positive value of a lie is what that's starting to start a community I just want to say I really don't like the infiltration of inner beauty with beautiful beauty there because when you say that like when I win it you know when I first heard things like this or when you you know you would talk about other women who are beautiful right you know I like I had this real complex like because of that like because I had been with somebody who was real possessive and was like you know you are mine you are the most beautiful we're perfect for it you know that was how my prior relationship was and you are more like honest about it you were like you know people and like you know it's not necessarily like what is sorry yeah I mean I was just kind of kind of diverged into something else but you know I was thinking about I was thinking about how standards of beauty have changed you know it's now not like maybe in the past it was it was the most beautiful thing in the world to be white and thin you know kind of look lightening and render or something but now now the standards of beauty are like Kim Kardashian like the ethnically ambiguous the wilting English Rose look like what can I change about myself to be like the perfect girl for you like what what's your like right how can I be but like for you you know because like I really just wanted to impress you or like you know like and I think but look this isn't K oh all right oder beauty in many ways you can't change right I'm ready look and again kal-el I think is a tragic case of this Cal she had more than nine plastic surgeries she had one in her nose one in her chin and then her breast but like there was this long list most of them are on her face but Buster's she looked good enough to get through this baby but again that's part of being realistic she didn't have someone I have to say that they're like look kid you're never gonna be in Playboy magazine or if you are it's not gonna be for good reasons it's not gonna be for these reasons but you know but you're good enough to get you liked though beat that was look you know you can't really change your appearance you can't change your gender top of whatever maybe they're a [ __ ] can't change your ethnicity can't change your age right I'm 40 years old I'm not in denial about that either you know there are a lot of things you can't change but then again the contrast to inner beauty you know just not normal I talked about it well can you can you change that you know or to what extent you know okay so come up you know in the the actual critiques I didn't mean I mean I mostly talked about intellectual work which you can change that can change quick you can start reading history and politics you can you can change right you can start leaving a more meaningful life intellectually right but a message so I think you've changed a lot to give an example of inner beauty when I got with Melissa she was unbelievably jealous jealousy was like one of her main driving motive forces and you know I don't know that's changed I mean that's you know I I think it's almost completely disappeared and that's 95 percent is it's a big change in your character you know I don't know yep so much healthier for everybody yeah right you know it yeah nobody okay so another another change them again with this may or may not relate to inner beauty Melissa had never really spent any time with with little kids before Melissa got with me she immediately started being like a second mom to my daughter and you know my daughter really got emotion attached to her very quickly and you know so she starts being a parent to my my daughter and you you also started teaching students in China or young kids and stuff you developed this kind of mother and said now again these things is it inner is it inner beauty or not no I mean you know what look I mean if one thing is inner beauty than the other isn't if being mothering and nurturing and down-to-earth is beautiful as inner beauty then it's not inner beauty to be a fastidious [ __ ] jealous cold and distant towards children kind of person right may all these are judgments right and you know it's funny but I mean that the inner beauty thing in some ways it's even more inflexible than than outer beauty you know so you know all right with your daughter and I really I really found a lot of value in teaching children and actually everything that experienced I think it really had changed my perspective on life what's important and - well you can see those issues already with with kids but if you're teaching ten year old kids or something you can see some of them are some of them are beautiful and some of them are really born with big disadvantages that way in terms of physical development or their facial structure you can see some of them have are going to their whole lives have a different you know across the barre I don't think we can make that easier or better by being you know dishonest about it so this is actually covered in Aristotle by the way Aristotle's politics never got back to doing it but it is interesting that Aristotle talks about the fact that being handsome or being beautiful is this huge advantage in life but that it shouldn't be considered in apportioning or your political rights and responsibilities well he's ultimately what I'm interested in here not so much the apportioning of your YouTube success but I remember back at the very start of my youtube channel when people were really influenced by very shallow lifestyle on bikini vloggers that was the heyday of freelee and durianrider um I can remember saying to people you know never forget like look at the guys who really good look at the amazing atheist look at TJ Kirk but look a lot of the most successful people here on YouTube long-term are really ugly TJ Kirk pretty much identifies as ugly pretty much self describes as ugly you know and they've you know why because they made their opinion matter in some other way they you know they're providing some kind of content or service or discussion again in of politics or whatever it is whatever the example is you want that's not based on their appearance alone so yeah I mean you know there are ways in which your appearance is gonna be a burden to bear your whole life and can't change and I mean they obviously they're limited ways in which it can change and you know I mean in terms the inner beauty thing I don't know I mean I know a lot of people have personality defects they can't change and they may struggle with them or I mean III don't think anyone who watch this channel really knows me that well but you know I mean you know I there are things I can own up to it there's only this video too long it's like look this is this is a problem with me and it's not gonna change or whatever you know and so you know what you know that's what's you know what what is the value we can place on inner beauty and would that would that really make anything better if people were on Instagram judging each other for whether or not they're a good mother whether or not they're a loving parent or whether or not they're jell whether or not they're jealous or kind by nature I nobody's ever given me a shred of respect because the humanitarian work I did and I don't ask for it I don't expect it you know but I mean you can look at things in that context too but what matters you know what about my my academic background my deluxe treatments or the just caring the fact that I care about First Nations people when their genocide enough that I actually went to their First Nations University and enrolled in those languages and you know the humanitarian work I tried to do whether it's in Canada or in Cambodia or something no well yep that is true that is true though that's true when she first was interesting but like nobody including Nina Aranda is judging me on that basis right Nina and Randa and happy healthy vegan they judge me for being old and ugly and for daring to you know so I mean I'm just saying terms the judgment yeah yeah yeah yeah an old and ugly weirdo so you know I and you can tell I'm cool with it you've put up with it and you've responded in ways you know you did up a video where you were weeping on screen you know about the case sure yeah yeah well what I was weeping about what I was what I was weaving about was whether I get to see my daughter again cuz how this would impact my divorce and it did impact my divorce top for another video still trying to make something positive happen people still drive listens yeah you start to have a conversation with yes yes even on the Nina rent issue right yeah conversations with people and they bring up this this stuff and they don't treat you with respect they don't treat you would think maybe they just treat you as like a punching bag I think like because they see that you you are so confident and I was just gonna say camera too you know of all the bullying of dealt with um actually a really interesting contrast would be bullying within veganism versus bullying within Buddhism and even bullying within Judaism and I just say that actually comes back to this issue that inner beauty and intangible you know property security it's actually much worse being void on that there is nothing like being ethnically Jewish and having other Jews tell you that you're a bad Jew the judgment of your soul within a religion that way and you know it would be a little bit different in different forms of Christianity or you know because of the Judaism it really is about you living up to the ethnic identity it's not about just following the Ten Commandments or something it's really not they have an idea of what it means to be a good Jew or to be a real Jew to be a to be a Jewish man and if you're not living up to that you're being judged so you say that's a little bit different than Protestantism but some people may have experiences like that also and within Buddhism it was so nasty and so horrible and their idea of what it is to be a beautiful person you know they'll let you know and if you don't live up to that if you don't live up to their notion you know they're gonna tell you you're ugly on the inside and you're gonna be judged you know based on this kind of awful awful stuff these kinds of standards you could never live up to and like you know my position in Buddhism absurdly was I was a poly scholar so I could read the Bible the Bible of that religion and nobody else could and you're surrounded by people who want to denigrate you and humiliate you and insult you because they're compensating for their own insecurities that they worship a religion they've never really studied the Bible up they don't really know the philosophical they know I have a kind of power because I know the flaws no that's really nasty and by contrast I mean durianrider insulting me by saying that I'm on steroids you know oh yes look at what I'm able to achieve at age 40 while sitting at my desk studying books all day mm you know insulting me saying that I'm steroids saying that I'm fat and whatever no I mean that's that's really a joke to me that's that's really that's really pretty shallow so yeah you know I think I think there is that kind of discourse about what it means to be a good vegan and what it means to be a good man what it means to be a good person there is the shifting from the outer beauty to inner beauty discourse but it's it's maybe even worse and maybe even nastier we're past 30 minutes so I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap it up there bed okay guys if you want to talk hit me up on patreon [Music]
the last minute after we wrapped up this thirty minute discussion of these issues because it really seemed to both of us that there was there was an important question underlying a lot of what we said but we never really made it explicit enough and the question is this are you hurting people or are you helping them through flattery and maybe one of the most fundamental misconceptions in our culture is that flattery is helpful rather than harmful so we've spent a lot of time on airplanes and we watched a movie together on the airplane a couple months ago and otherwise we wouldn't watch this movie it's a film called the disaster artist and it's a film about a film it relates to an earlier film that was called the room you guys don't need to know the background story but one of the crucial elements is that there is a mentally disabled guy who was struggling to become an actor in Hollywood and a lot of people were saying to him you'll never make it you can never do this this isn't for you now he also wasn't conventionally good-looking I mean peculiar as everyone says in the film everyone told him he could play a vampire where he could play a monster but he couldn't be a kind of handsome lead which is what he wanted to be you want to be a romantic leading man and his mental disability was caused by a car accident caused by brain damage from impact or injury so it wasn't that he was born mentally disabled so the film is interesting in many other ways I'm not going to talk about that here but what Melissa asked me at the u.s. dies we were getting off the plane you said you know I want I want to know your your honest opinion on this but is it really a good thing for everyone else in this man's life to be enabling him if you have a mentally disabled person is it really good is it helpful or harmful for all these other people to be telling you telling them you're good enough you're smart enough you can do it you know and it's already built into the question that really the answer is no so it seems like virtue it seems kind and it seems helpful to tell someone but like even if it's like simple someone who's bad at math telling them oh no honey you're good at math in your own way you can do this well if you keep encouraging them and flattering them and then they actually spend fifty thousand dollars going to college trying to get a degree in math we're trying to get a degree in theoretical physics and they're not really good at math or you are you helping them or harming them obviously this is this is something harmful even if it's presented as as flattery um so I mean something else is in the fullness of this videos thirty minute video Melissa talks about the fact that she really grew up with people telling her that she was mature for her age and I mean maybe this helped build up her self-confidence but in some ways as we discussed here it was really a false self confidence and she had a kind of crushing realization at a certain point that she really wasn't mature for age this was just something people had flattered her about over and over again so in this video we talk about ugliness we talk about real ugliness like being born you know seriously hideously deformed we're ugliness is a real fact your daily life we talk about the relative relations of publicly perceived beauty and plainness and ugliness we talk about you know the whole range here but I think one thing we didn't say explicitly enough really comes down to the morality of the lie the morality of deception and encouraging others in their self-deception through flattery I do not see it as morally positive to tell someone you can be a runway model you can be a fashion model you can be a beauty icon when really they can't when really that's not the type of beauty they have now again the example about to go into I would not even tell everyone you have what it takes to learn Chinese I know better than most some people have what it takes and some people don't I would not tell everyone you have what it takes to learn Cambodian or you have it what it takes to learn poly I wouldn't even tell everyone you have what it takes to study Shakespeare you know with English being a person I don't I think I think there's something really meaningful about being honest in telling people this is what it takes have you got what it takes whether it's tangible physical beauty or strength or athleticism or self-discipline whether it's any of these characteristics but yeah for the next thirty minutes ladies and gentlemen I hope you take something meaningful from what for us was a meaningful discussion about physical beauty ugliness and ultimately about the lies we tell ourselves the lies we tell others it's hard to be honest about the advantages and disadvantages were born with in life now I was with my girlfriend for about a year and a half before I said to her you know I think you are actually talented at learning Chinese I think you actually have a combination of characteristics part of which just has to do with memorization accuracy and speaking kind of diligence in written note taking a bunch of things that I'd seen over year and a half and I said look I've sat next to and worked with a whole bunch of different white people while they were learning Chinese some some Hispanics and some black people but humbly there's no point you know saying anything else here and you know I do really think you have a lot of advantages over other Westerners when they when they started learning Chinese when they went through this process I think this is something you can be not just mediocre at or scraped by up but be great at right now by the same token there must be other people I would say the opposite to right it must be there's no way this is the problem the the response Nina and Randa made to my criticism was how dare you call any person ugly everyone is beautiful and to say any one person not not that they're ugly fundamentally but that they are too ugly to be a model they're too ugly to be paid to be beautiful in an advertisement for soap or fashion like that's weird I am bitter you know if it's an advertisement for a candy bar you know whatever I'm not sometimes they're playing or even ugly people in advertising it happens um it doesn't make sense intellectually physically or otherwise and I mean I think a lot of us I mean within our own families or within our own circle of friends whether you do it gently or harshly there's a process of trying to say you know look you're never gonna be you know you're never gonna be an actor you know this is not the past path for you or look you know I mean even with music right you know people and they're okay as a musician their ability to play the guitar the ability this thing is is okay but I mean you can spin it one or two ways you can say look either you're never gonna make it you don't have what it takes but you might also say look if you do make it it's just luck because you don't have what it takes I mean you know if you're if you're fundamentally too ugly to be a model but you're born rich and your parents have connections and you keep going to auditions in LA right right right and sooner sooner or later you manage to get a little bit of work well well okay but the point would still stand where you don't really have this talent you don't really you don't really have what it takes yeah so look I mean okay we we can talk primarily or entirely about the physical side of it you know my girlfriend was just saying I mean look I I think there really is a difference between biologically real ugliness and the the fashions and trends that come and go in our society or our culture you know I saw a debate on British television so you know England England Scotland and Wales they have a somewhat different healthcare system from Canada the United States and there was a surgeon there who was advocating for in blunt language people who were ugly beyond a certain threshold should be able to get plastic surgery for free on their faces and I remember during the interview they put up a photograph of one of his one of his clients and he said well look you know how can you justify this you know what this person got a nose job but their original nose is not that bad it's not like they have two noses and I remember the the plastic surgeon said back some people have two noses you know he was he was kind of dead serious on that you know I think that's I think that's really true I mean there are some people who are born really deformed or three Oh medical conditions real problems and I mean if that's your child or that's your brother if that's your friend in school being honest with them about what this life means that how to get ahead and what-have-you yeah that's that's one thing now I mean okay so there are many many steps and stages removed from that there are people who grow up or or as fully grown as adults the fully grown adults feel um I'm not beautiful in the same way as these people are magazine covers you know this I'm not as beautiful as what's currently celebrated in hip-hop videos if what you listen to is hip-hop or whatever is going on in country music or whatever whatever whatever genre or something you know but look so modes well you know what's your approach that it's unwell or live with embarrassment yeah so I will say an anecdote I will tell an anecdote I just recently took a certification course to get certified to teach English as a second language right and in this there was an exercise she was given the teacher who was doing the program you know she was giving an example of what you might share in class as a listening exercise exercise and it was listening to this song you're beautiful by James Blunt right and in preparation for this before she even played the song she asked the question to the class like okay so split up into groups and talk with amongst yourselves what does it mean to be beautiful what does Beauty mean to you and once we gathered as a whole class and shared our answers it became clear to me that I think people are really uncomfortable talking about beauty in a physical sense or just matters of skin deep a lot of people were trying to focus on inner beauty yeah and I really was wondering because I had a friend who was originally from China shows so she's from Shanghai and I know just discussions about beauty there they're more blunt over there yep in China they they really focus on physical beauty and they're honest with you if you're not beautiful or like you know you've said you've had professors who will who will say you know I can tell you've gained weight since I saw you or something you know they're very um and it's not it's not necessarily being rude and it's not necessarily just to make the other person feel bad so anyway I was wondering what what she was going to say but I think she's she's had so much experience with Western culture that she was able to say like oh well we just focused on inner beauty you know we talked about being a nice person being a kind giving loving person rather than talking about physical beauty and I thought it was funny I was the only person in class like the person that I was talking with kind of laughed at me like she just burst out laughing because I went the first thing I said when we split up into groups was uh not being deformed cracks up and I think like part of humor is what is not okay to say in everyday life and like I wonder when that happened because you know I grew up in a very recently that's obvious but everywhere concealed yeah right exactly yeah that's that's so true um but yeah I grew up in a politically correct culture and I you know I I think I was at the start of this oppression Olympics that is going on and I know I political pundits they say that Millennials are so I pretty hypersensitive that they can't take criticism and yeah you know as we walk around I've seen spray-painted signs like everyone is beautiful they're like you are beautiful right you know and it's become so meaningless if everybody is beautiful what does it mean and anything this is something I think most people struggle with most people will think about in terms of physical beauty it's something that you're insecure about because well so I mean there's several kind of false dichotomies are false distinctions here but I mean one is the assumption that if we switch from talking about real beauty to inner beauty that we're going from something judgemental to something non-judgmental like something that's more inclusive no so I mean okay so if we if we agree not everyone has outer beauty does everyone have inner beauty if we agree not everyone likes to be judged for their outer beauty isn't it more hurtful doesn't it sting more when you're being judged and your inner beauty because guess what some people are ugly inside and out and some people say so I mean what's the point we just move on to a kind of deeper form of judgment or credit you know you share too much dirty laundry but I mean like I before I have been with you I have not had somebody like I really appreciate donna ste from you and i know you've said this in other videos that like you know other I really appreciate that you tell me if I'm being a [ __ ] basically because like or if I'm not being a good partner because it's really important to be loving and respectful and treat the other person with dignity and it's so strange to me how the the closest people in your life the people will never tell you yeah they won't tell you that you know you're being a [ __ ] like you need I just put in a quick example here this is not an offensive example at all but we were in a hotel in Detroit and we were walking up the stairs past the check-in desk and Melissa spoke to the front desk without thinking about it I mean she didn't mean it in a mean way but I pointed out to Melissa I said you know like if you were in England you'd be absolutely scorned that was really rude that was really contemptuous and dismissed at the way you talked to the front desk and I know Melissa like I can interpret her intention behind her words and stuff I can tell if she didn't mean to be but I mean that was really sorry in terms of like talking about you know what it you know being a [ __ ] or having a point out to you or something so and that was you know that was uh and again I mean at the moment you were kind of momentarily upset by it but you did kind of like yeah you know what taking the five seconds to actually make eye contact with the hotel staff and say hey sorry you know I have a question you know what just that that little bit of lead-in and not just shouting across the room you want the hotel staff to do that's so I just say you know that's that is the kind of thing we're talking about here yeah go ahead even inner beauty like even like being a loving person I think that we are in this generation we are quick to call somebody beautiful on the inside too even if they're not right like people might say that about sorry the topic of Congress you know that is bringing about this conversation is Nina and Randa you know like I think they get a lot of positive comment of feedback and sorry I mean I don't I don't need to talk about it in general but like you and me I've you I've had instances where you know I have had beliefs about myself that have been totally thrown into question you know like when I was growing up I was told by people around me that I was mature for my age that I was just had some you know some level of wisdom that was better than you know because I think I think I was always more like no more but you know I was somewhat responsible for myself you know like I didn't over I didn't binge drink and you pass out on the floor or something you know like I took care of myself and in this way I tended to think of myself as mature but then like you know in a series of what has happened in our relationship I mean like we've we've been through a lot of stuff and it's mostly because of me and you know you told me like you know we'll see you've told me that you're mature for your age but but you're really not and that that really that really like stung well I'm stung more than hearing anything about like oh you're not curvy you know because it's true like I can recognize it now and I'm comfortable like I mean I I you know trying to build muscle to be fit more fitting like healthy and healthy-looking but you know I wasn't born with large breasts I wasn't born with the genetics that predispose me for that and that's it's fine it's cool I mean some people like it some people must think Nina and Rand are attractive you know um and it's okay for you to voice that you know it's okay for you to voice that you don't find attractive in the same way it's okay to voice that you do you know if other people do that's fine you that's a matter of well I mean look you know exactly these things whether it's inner beauty or outer beauty it's funny how much it changes when we move past this totally vague abstract compliment to anything particular so like if you say everyone is beautiful not everyone has large breasts and this is a separate discourse but we've had a bunch of videos who watch things respond to you dealing with this is part most because of kal-el kal-el has a bunch of health problems and they may or may not be related to her breast implants and her numerous plastic surgeries kal-el wanted to look like somebody biologically she could never be she wanted to have large breasts my impression is she wanted to look like a Playboy model I remember her getting really upset when she made a visit to the Playboy Mansion that's why I mentioned Playboy's I hadn't seen that many of her videos I remember seeing a video where she visited the Playboy Mansion how much that meant to her that she wants to look like a Playboy bunny and she can she never will you know now obviously kal-el has a lot of advantages over like 98% of humanity and she was good-looking enough to get by in this life again coming back to that that interview with the plastic surgeon some people have two noses I mean some people have really deformed faces and I think it's an interesting question should the taxpayer you know should public health provide free corrective surgery to people with certain kinds of deformities even when they're just aesthetic and what kind of impact that can have on someone's life because I've known people no not my close friends but I have known people with genuinely deformed faces and and genuine deformed bodies but my point was with kal-el ultimately you've got to come back to saying recreational surgery has really high risks and it's in almost all circumstances it's wrong and we saw some YouTube videos dealing with the the horrifying health effects that again maybe twenty of twenty percent of people get with with presidents it's not that a hundred percent of people have this reaction but having breast implants it's a foreign object inside your body and your immune system reacts to it there are all these there are all these problems you know built into it so you know you want to say everyone is beautiful well not everyone has large breasts and of course that's not the only criterion of beauty but if you think women aren't hung up about having large breasts what about men and large penises versus small penises because there are some female beauty icons who have small breasts there are some female porn stars who have small breasts so right my point is there somewhere large or somewhere small but even in pornography let alone runway models for fashion or something or actresses at any given time there are plenty of actresses with more flat-chested or have small breasts right there are no male porn stars with small penises there is no there's no positive association with with that and of course men do get surgery to have to have a bigger penis you know yeah I mean you know sir but there's no you know there are many different female body types that are considered beautiful but for straight men I think there's a little bit more actually you know with with with gay men there's a little bit more diversity but for straight men nobody wants to be weak nobody wants to be small nobody wants to be short and even when they become famous for the reasons I've never heard of dude say he wants to look like Prince Prince the performing artist r.i.p i mean it you know everyone wants to look like dmx nobody nobody wants to look like Takashi 6-9 I just started to view about their these are two different rappers but Takashi 6:9 is small and weak he's maybe five foot seven he looks like he could never win in a fist fight and DMX is that dude everyone's afraid to have a fist fight with that's I'm so it's it's very unfair and you know sir I said this I can't remember this was years you're less than citizens Channel but like I'm not on an ego trip would I go to the gym most days not every day I may be the weakest guy in the gym I'm bench pressing 220 pounds or whatever I'm doing that particular day and there were guys there lifting 400 pounds that's you know depends on what GM you go to depends on what it is I'm not you know I'm not deluded I'm not out of touch I'm gonna tell you the reality is that's I mean that's physically the contract is issue about I mean these compliments people give you it's interesting that really impacted you I don't think that type of a flattery impacted me growing up kind of a different question but it's real easy to say to somebody you're mature for your age and I think you kind of skipped over what the real reasons would be you got a job you started she started having normal jobs early you got a straight job you kind of wear normal-looking clothes you know you don't know I mean you're not dressing in a teenage rebel style you're not dressing punk rock you're not dressing emo you're not dressing hip-hop you're kind of dressing in a professional way you have a job you have an income you're living and ostensibly and outwardly responsible life now beneath the surface actually during that period of your life there were a lot of things wrong but that's not what adults I'm saying so but again it's the same thing like if we're going to talk about inner beauty well if some people are mature for their age for one thing that's got to have advantages and disadvantages and not everybody can be mature for the range right I mean so some people are immature for the range so some people are living a lie or whatever me know and what what is that what does that mean so yeah that's but I think in terms of your self-image that was one of the biggest turning points you had in the last let's say two years to round off I remember that the first time we talked about that that really had a huge impact you we had several conversations about it but you were 25 at the time and I said look you know Melissa I can remember what it was like to be 25 and of course at the University and even within okay-y even within vegan activism you know I know a lot of people 24 25 years old is this kind of age and I said you know I know you pride yourself in this and now you say you're mature for your age but you're not like oh you well now and someone lets you know let's talk about what it's we what would someone be like they're mature right at 24 talk about yeah yeah that was those kind of a real real interesting turning point yeah yeah but look you know what's you look so I'm I'm in love with Melissa you know I think we're building a good life and a good future together I was gonna make a separate video with this in this point on this this issue but you know for me like the first whole year we were together the main priority of my life was building this relationship and I studied way less Chinese I really basically stopped studying Chinese I was still living in China speaking Chinese every day and I was teaching class writing Chinese on the board and speaking Chinese to the students so I was getting practice but I basically stopped studying for the whole year and now we're talking about getting serious about working on Chinese together kind of semi serious at the moment that was that was a big big priority for me but I never lied to you about or you know like your your boyfriend you risk before me I think he told you all the time you were basically the most beautiful woman in the world and whatever you know I mean there's nothing wrong with that I mean but it's funny I mean people who grow up whether they grow up with it just from their own family or from their boyfriends or husbands or men who are in love with them being told that you're so beautiful and you're the apogee of beauty as opposed to being with someone like me who's realistic with you who says look I love you and I love you for various reasons and various redeeming qualities you have you know no I mean you know you I remember I mean look you know you are not the most beautiful woman I've met you're not the most beautiful woman who's hit on me or offered have sex with me and sometime I mean times living in Asia it's may not be even this month there's something maybe a lot of women trying to get at me and that I'm turning down and I'm refusing you know this this is the reality of my life there are other women both face to face in real life hitting on me there at that time when you when I first got together by email or by facebook you know there were really good-looking women trying to get at me you know and then then it stops because you know but me but have you seen what is the morally positive value of a lie is what that's starting to start a community I just want to say I really don't like the infiltration of inner beauty with beautiful beauty there because when you say that like when I win it you know when I first heard things like this or when you you know you would talk about other women who are beautiful right you know I like I had this real complex like because of that like because I had been with somebody who was real possessive and was like you know you are mine you are the most beautiful we're perfect for it you know that was how my prior relationship was and you are more like honest about it you were like you know people and like you know it's not necessarily like what is sorry yeah I mean I was just kind of kind of diverged into something else but you know I was thinking about I was thinking about how standards of beauty have changed you know it's now not like maybe in the past it was it was the most beautiful thing in the world to be white and thin you know kind of look lightening and render or something but now now the standards of beauty are like Kim Kardashian like the ethnically ambiguous the wilting English Rose look like what can I change about myself to be like the perfect girl for you like what what's your like right how can I be but like for you you know because like I really just wanted to impress you or like you know like and I think but look this isn't K oh all right oder beauty in many ways you can't change right I'm ready look and again kal-el I think is a tragic case of this Cal she had more than nine plastic surgeries she had one in her nose one in her chin and then her breast but like there was this long list most of them are on her face but Buster's she looked good enough to get through this baby but again that's part of being realistic she didn't have someone I have to say that they're like look kid you're never gonna be in Playboy magazine or if you are it's not gonna be for good reasons it's not gonna be for these reasons but you know but you're good enough to get you liked though beat that was look you know you can't really change your appearance you can't change your gender top of whatever maybe they're a [ __ ] can't change your ethnicity can't change your age right I'm 40 years old I'm not in denial about that either you know there are a lot of things you can't change but then again the contrast to inner beauty you know just not normal I talked about it well can you can you change that you know or to what extent you know okay so come up you know in the the actual critiques I didn't mean I mean I mostly talked about intellectual work which you can change that can change quick you can start reading history and politics you can you can change right you can start leaving a more meaningful life intellectually right but a message so I think you've changed a lot to give an example of inner beauty when I got with Melissa she was unbelievably jealous jealousy was like one of her main driving motive forces and you know I don't know that's changed I mean that's you know I I think it's almost completely disappeared and that's 95 percent is it's a big change in your character you know I don't know yep so much healthier for everybody yeah right you know it yeah nobody okay so another another change them again with this may or may not relate to inner beauty Melissa had never really spent any time with with little kids before Melissa got with me she immediately started being like a second mom to my daughter and you know my daughter really got emotion attached to her very quickly and you know so she starts being a parent to my my daughter and you you also started teaching students in China or young kids and stuff you developed this kind of mother and said now again these things is it inner is it inner beauty or not no I mean you know what look I mean if one thing is inner beauty than the other isn't if being mothering and nurturing and down-to-earth is beautiful as inner beauty then it's not inner beauty to be a fastidious [ __ ] jealous cold and distant towards children kind of person right may all these are judgments right and you know it's funny but I mean that the inner beauty thing in some ways it's even more inflexible than than outer beauty you know so you know all right with your daughter and I really I really found a lot of value in teaching children and actually everything that experienced I think it really had changed my perspective on life what's important and - well you can see those issues already with with kids but if you're teaching ten year old kids or something you can see some of them are some of them are beautiful and some of them are really born with big disadvantages that way in terms of physical development or their facial structure you can see some of them have are going to their whole lives have a different you know across the barre I don't think we can make that easier or better by being you know dishonest about it so this is actually covered in Aristotle by the way Aristotle's politics never got back to doing it but it is interesting that Aristotle talks about the fact that being handsome or being beautiful is this huge advantage in life but that it shouldn't be considered in apportioning or your political rights and responsibilities well he's ultimately what I'm interested in here not so much the apportioning of your YouTube success but I remember back at the very start of my youtube channel when people were really influenced by very shallow lifestyle on bikini vloggers that was the heyday of freelee and durianrider um I can remember saying to people you know never forget like look at the guys who really good look at the amazing atheist look at TJ Kirk but look a lot of the most successful people here on YouTube long-term are really ugly TJ Kirk pretty much identifies as ugly pretty much self describes as ugly you know and they've you know why because they made their opinion matter in some other way they you know they're providing some kind of content or service or discussion again in of politics or whatever it is whatever the example is you want that's not based on their appearance alone so yeah I mean you know there are ways in which your appearance is gonna be a burden to bear your whole life and can't change and I mean they obviously they're limited ways in which it can change and you know I mean in terms the inner beauty thing I don't know I mean I know a lot of people have personality defects they can't change and they may struggle with them or I mean III don't think anyone who watch this channel really knows me that well but you know I mean you know I there are things I can own up to it there's only this video too long it's like look this is this is a problem with me and it's not gonna change or whatever you know and so you know what you know that's what's you know what what is the value we can place on inner beauty and would that would that really make anything better if people were on Instagram judging each other for whether or not they're a good mother whether or not they're a loving parent or whether or not they're jell whether or not they're jealous or kind by nature I nobody's ever given me a shred of respect because the humanitarian work I did and I don't ask for it I don't expect it you know but I mean you can look at things in that context too but what matters you know what about my my academic background my deluxe treatments or the just caring the fact that I care about First Nations people when their genocide enough that I actually went to their First Nations University and enrolled in those languages and you know the humanitarian work I tried to do whether it's in Canada or in Cambodia or something no well yep that is true that is true though that's true when she first was interesting but like nobody including Nina Aranda is judging me on that basis right Nina and Randa and happy healthy vegan they judge me for being old and ugly and for daring to you know so I mean I'm just saying terms the judgment yeah yeah yeah yeah an old and ugly weirdo so you know I and you can tell I'm cool with it you've put up with it and you've responded in ways you know you did up a video where you were weeping on screen you know about the case sure yeah yeah well what I was weeping about what I was what I was weaving about was whether I get to see my daughter again cuz how this would impact my divorce and it did impact my divorce top for another video still trying to make something positive happen people still drive listens yeah you start to have a conversation with yes yes even on the Nina rent issue right yeah conversations with people and they bring up this this stuff and they don't treat you with respect they don't treat you would think maybe they just treat you as like a punching bag I think like because they see that you you are so confident and I was just gonna say camera too you know of all the bullying of dealt with um actually a really interesting contrast would be bullying within veganism versus bullying within Buddhism and even bullying within Judaism and I just say that actually comes back to this issue that inner beauty and intangible you know property security it's actually much worse being void on that there is nothing like being ethnically Jewish and having other Jews tell you that you're a bad Jew the judgment of your soul within a religion that way and you know it would be a little bit different in different forms of Christianity or you know because of the Judaism it really is about you living up to the ethnic identity it's not about just following the Ten Commandments or something it's really not they have an idea of what it means to be a good Jew or to be a real Jew to be a to be a Jewish man and if you're not living up to that you're being judged so you say that's a little bit different than Protestantism but some people may have experiences like that also and within Buddhism it was so nasty and so horrible and their idea of what it is to be a beautiful person you know they'll let you know and if you don't live up to that if you don't live up to their notion you know they're gonna tell you you're ugly on the inside and you're gonna be judged you know based on this kind of awful awful stuff these kinds of standards you could never live up to and like you know my position in Buddhism absurdly was I was a poly scholar so I could read the Bible the Bible of that religion and nobody else could and you're surrounded by people who want to denigrate you and humiliate you and insult you because they're compensating for their own insecurities that they worship a religion they've never really studied the Bible up they don't really know the philosophical they know I have a kind of power because I know the flaws no that's really nasty and by contrast I mean durianrider insulting me by saying that I'm on steroids you know oh yes look at what I'm able to achieve at age 40 while sitting at my desk studying books all day mm you know insulting me saying that I'm steroids saying that I'm fat and whatever no I mean that's that's really a joke to me that's that's really that's really pretty shallow so yeah you know I think I think there is that kind of discourse about what it means to be a good vegan and what it means to be a good man what it means to be a good person there is the shifting from the outer beauty to inner beauty discourse but it's it's maybe even worse and maybe even nastier we're past 30 minutes so I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap it up there bed okay guys if you want to talk hit me up on patreon [Music]