See you in Thailand this December? How Drama Disrupts I.R.L. Activism.
20 August 2016 [link youtube]
Youtube Automatic Transcription
as I've said many many times tolerance
doesn't mean that I agree with you tolerance doesn't mean that I have to make up excuses for you when you're wrong if I tolerate you means just that no more no less and I do tolerate people who disagree with me either on matters of principle or matters of tactics matters of strategy here on YouTube there have been a lot of games played lately in pursuit of Fame notoriety money a lot of drama mongering going on within the vegan scene and I mean you know to some extent I just tolerate it and to some extent also i think you know at least in the beginning people felt that this was a positive thing because the drama and the scandal mongering was supposed to be indirectly and eventually in pursuit of a larger goal whether you call that saving the planet or helping the animals or just promoting veganism itself but the problem is why i'm making this video right now on a practical level I've got to tell you the type of backstabbing the negative aspects of this scandal mongering behavior they actually are having a negative impact on my ability to organize real world activism right now and they'll be having a negative impact on numerous other people who are not going to make youtube videos talking about it they're creating an atmosphere of hostility and distrust that's counterproductive not long-term not invisibly very visibly already short term here and now no you see you love love is loyalty I watched Beanie Sigel listen Jay Z i watch the game we need this 50 i watch the locks when they dis puffy if i put a [ __ ] on is that won't happen to me if I put a [ __ ] on is that gonna happen to me loyalty is love love is loyalty I watched Beanie Sigel listen Jay Z i watch the game we need is 50 I watched a lot when they just puffy if I put a [ __ ] on is that gonna happen to me if I put a [ __ ] on is that gonna happen to me I Betis yen to kick this off and to put a human face on some of the philosophical questions I'm going to raise here I'm now going to read you an email from a guy named Timothy Timothy is one of my supporters on patreon paying one dollar a month currently the only income I've got in this world so if you guys want to sign up and join my patreon to could be fun for the both of us Timothy rights izel hello I followed you on YouTube for many months and have been part of your patreon discussion forum for a couple of months to your videos on history and politics drew me in and I had no idea it would spark such an interest in me for ecology and matters of principle what you said about being uncompromising and not being a nice guy resonated with me especially because that trait has been a frequent source of criticism for me I've maintained a vegan diet for two weeks now I believe I was chiefly influenced in this direction by you I never intend to abandon veganism but January a lead for military recruit training I know at least I'll be required to purchase wool for my dress uniform I'll do the best I can thank you for the content you produce I hope you keep it up for a long time that this message gets to you and that you have a good day keep it real it's the end of the message from Timothy for me the prospect of ethics relies on there being some sort of a connection between knowing and feeling I know that leather harms animals destroys the environment and so on and this changes how i feel about it now i had a conversation with a Chinese woman here a few days ago last week and she really had never thought about before what leather is made of or where it comes from she had never thought that buying leather entails killing animals and you know at first her reaction like you sort of don't know if the person is joking then you realize no sincerely this person is waking up to this fundamental fact of their life for the first time and they're recognizing that something they've in the past only looked at as a finished product as an item presented to consumers has this history behind it has these difficult ethical questions about you know how its produced and what it means to go to us is people if we're going to pay for it um but leather if you look at it if you smell it if you touch it in a store as a finished product there's nothing disgusting about it there's nothing revolting about it but what I know about leather can change how I feel about leather I can feel revolted to discover you know if I try something on in a store and I don't realize it's made of leather and then I check the label some of you have had that that experience that happening more often son like wool we need try sling on you're looking at it and then you only figure out that it has some hidden naik ingredients you may really feel revolted you may feel disgusted putting on leather yourself or when you meet a friend and your friend is wearing leather and so on but what I know changes how i feel and that shapes my conduct in my daily life in many many different ways now the question of being a nice guy and not being a nice guy is really very different from the question of being a moral person and it's also completely separate from this issue of Moral Sentiments of how you feel about ethical issues and problems with the same immediacy that i'm talking about feeling that leather is something bad or revolting even though it may look appealing you know it did it put it this way leather as a finished product it doesn't resemble the corpse of a dead animal in any way whatsoever I'm it very often leather looks very similar to plastic as a finished consumer product now you know this thing with with vegan cheetah who is currently you know one of our leading celebrity voices on veganism here in the digital vegan demi-monde in many ways cheetah is a nice guy you can see that publicly and I can say that some extent because I know him cheetah is the type of guy who says you know in his videos he looks in the camera says to you I hope you're having a great day I hope you have a great weekend and he really means it Oh think if you talk to him personally offline he is that kind of guy he actually hopes you're having a nice day he actually wishes you to evidence we can in many ways he is a nice guy and yet you know this video exists and a lot of controversy exists right now because he is doing real harm it got just to the prospect of effective activism here within veganism you know even proto activism even just us communicating with each other getting organized and making something happen now the the main example I'm concerned about I proposed really me and Jason fazzino together started discussing an event that we wanted to organize in Thailand in December now is this activism in the strictest sense no but the first steps towards having real meaningful activism emerged from this mess of you know discordant and dissonant personalities that are brought together by vegan YouTube and a lot of people were really excited about the idea so the idea was in its final form was to have an event in Thailand this December probably going up to and including New Year's Eve because many of the people involved that was really when they want to go be after christmas in the days leading up to New Year's Eve and then celebrate New Years Eve in Thailand and you know it was not going to be based on lectures it was not going to based on an academic conference it was going to give people the opportunity to see some elephants see some monkeys possibly visit you know Conservation Park for endangered turtles we're going to try to put together a couple of hands-on meaningful experiences like that but otherwise the only events would be to meet other vegans you know for the vegan last have the chance to meet the vegan cheetah face-to-face for the first time possibly for the light twins to meet the vid she to face to face the first time and you know for me to meet all these people and what have you and to create long-term friendships the long-term connections of trust and cooperation free at friendship you know what friends are one thing colleagues or another really if we're talking along as your political activism its colleagues that we want and colleagues that we need it's it's a really pragmatic form of trust and cooperation that trying to set up a basis for a long term and the the original concept for this when we were doing the brainstorm it was really me and Jason Posey know who did this brainstorming together we started and you know cheetah was was really an integral part of the of the idea and we talked about well you know cheetah doesn't travel much could we have this event closer to him in his hometown or in Virginia Beach where he has family uh you know we went through this long list of possibilities of possible organizing this in the United States and then finally when for various pragmatic reasons it really became clear that the place to hold this event would be Thailand what made sense was to do in Thailand I said well okay I've got to check with cheetah in terms of the time on December can he leave the United States at all would he attend this event now why is that you know uh why was it that from my perspective cheetah was an important part of this event to have him be there it is partly because he's a nice guy uh you know in terms of what people would actually do with that event me people hang out go to the beach have fun go to a go to a kick boxing club I definitely think that be part of it we could finally have the the you know long-awaited fistfight between vegan she'd have the light twins whatever I offered I said look if Jason Posey no 17 fistfight with me we could do that for charity too obviously not seriously the the box arena there's a limited number of things in terms of just entertainment that people will do aside from sitting down and talking about vegan politics and getting organized to save the planet and do all those wonderful important things we talked about on YouTube but that most of us have no clear plans on how to do so there are some contexts in which being a nice guy matters in which it's really an important trait and I can totally imagine a guy like cheetah being really thrilled to meet some of his fans face to face the first time to meet other youtubers to come together that way that same kind of bright positive attitude that guy has of you know I hope you're having a great day I hope you have a great weekend I can totally imagine him being a guy who at an event like that would really bring a lot of life and joy to it now the last time I was in Thailand I met with several of my fans several of my viewers and several other vegans on youtube and we did am you know we sat down and talked politics but again I'm not a nice guy I think a lot of those people enjoy meeting me would have you been meeting me and talking to me it's a lot like you can listen to any my fault my podcasts um i'm not i'm not i don't bring that kind of bright happy fun energy to something you know I sit down I want to really talk about about politics I remember so you know we did this events at a at a karaoke bar and there was a funny mome we were all kind of talking about both different things and everyone there was basically opposed to the permanent vacation that's you know why they were interested me interested meeting me about that event mer there was one point which I just said to people it was kind of a momentary pause in the conversation so what do you guys think about those elections coming up here on tile and asked a couple of other political questions and you know everyone there because they watch my channel they all your kind of half smiling but half silent and have awkward everyone kind of had a laugh at themselves because even though the people at that table they're critical of this and they've seen my own videos raising the question of why aren't vegans and Thailand more politically engaged more politically aware um nobody knew anything about it nobody had anything to say about those kinds of political questions with in Thailand so this event we talked about holding this December the end of December in Thailand I still think it's a great idea i still think could be a very positive thing for everybody involved and from my perspective as you guys know if you've been watching the videos on this channel I don't have any kind of personal animosity towards cheetah we don't have any personal conflict that I know of he's also stopped talking to me he stopped replying to my emails and from my perspective the weird thing is look cheetah I really thought about this event as being for you for him in many ways and for people like him the reason why the whole event was thought of as such a kind of fun vacation for the people involved is that it's not really for me and it's not for people like me uh he says I say you know I'm not that dude if I was planning my own vacation in Thailand I wouldn't go anywhere near the beach there are a lot of things that are interesting me in Thailand intellectually historically you know if I was doing an event for me I'd probably have it at the National Museum in con can I ever be I should have a couple of very area tight people show up and talk about the history of the dvaravati ruins with in Thailand in on whatever you know in terms of art archaeology history build ancient and modern you know 20th century politics Vietnam War politics there are so many things in that part in in Thailand that that are of interest to me and where I can imagine hosting an event for me and for people like me but this again you know it's partly I'm aware I'm not a nice guy and in a lot of ways this was supposed to be a nice event for nice guys you know is trying to just help organize something that people who really enjoy again this isn't even really activism it's just proto activism it's setting the foundation for cooperation and future um but now I'm in the situation where I'm writing to vegan cheetah and saying look I expected you to come to this event you know ultimately I've got to invest both time and money if I'm preparing this event because I'm here in Asia you go back and forth drinkin ming and Thailand pretty easily you know if we're setting the foundation for this like cheetah regardless of all this other noise and acrimony you're creating are you going to come are you committed to coming this matter are you committed to promoting this in your channel just to saying it's a good thing because you know obviously he's going to come he's going to film himself or we're gonna film him and you know have fun and so on you know just a very short time ago this was something really positive in your life cheetah that we that me and other people you know especially me and Jason Posey know we're really putting in work to make happen and now already that's falling apart you know now already I've got a look at sheet and say okay well what's happening and if cheetahs short-term strategy is to create invidious hatred between as many people as possible like the thing with vegan mojo and she just says he's remarked on the internet with that he has dirt on you know Jason and hey Nia that he's got some kind of scandal he's going to try to monger and so on like well you know there's what you do and there's the way that you do it okay well are we still going to get this kind of positivity from you are you still committed to making this particular event happen or are you out or you canceling your involvement you know what does that mean for you what does that mean for us what does it mean for anyone who's trying to make this mess of eccentrics into some kind of meaningful movement in the future notice she crazy man so the philosophical point I wanted to make in this video that's what's what will be interesting to me if I come back and watch this video 10 years from now you know being a nice guy what Timothy wrote to me about is very very different from being someone who's highly motivated to deal with ethics or it's also just totally unrelated from the feelings the sentiments that may shape your ethics in life and I mean I'm someone who's susceptible to both for me you know my engagement with moral and ethical problems it's not purely rational it's not just a academic debating Club or something it's part of how I feel and how I feel really does shape what I do um for me I mean I'm gonna tell this this anecdote in a very short manner but you know for me in my life it was an ant oh that really highlighted this you know the way I experience ethical questions and ethical things in my life i sat down once in a cafe with a young woman who had just finished law school she just started her career as a lawyer and she was a Dutch citizen she was citizen another ones but she was black uh and from the very first time she and I met each other we only met twice from the very first time we met each other there was just a tremendous chemistry between us tremendous physical attraction and we did have a very intelligent conversation she was an intelligent woman as well as one who was beautiful and very attractive to me but the reality was the the substance of the conversation for both of us was you know you start talking and the question is really i'm feeling very attracted to you are you feeling very attracted me also just both parties are really trying to figure out if the feeling is mutual and then once you know it is mutual what are you going to do next now so this woman who had just started her career as lawyer she talked to me a lot about humanitarian work but at that time I was really more involved in than I am now now I'm just a student learning Chinese blah blah blah most you guys know talk about humanitarian work some ethical issues in history and politics about a lot of things that are meaningful and important to me in my life you know what what she was choosing to talk about and we talked a little bit about her experience in law school on her starting you know to be to be a lawyer now at the end of the conversation what she said to me directly and it's the only second time I met up with her she directly propositioned me she asked me if I was going to come back to hotel room with her 00 extra pepper she she invited me to come back to her hotel room with her for about three hours she specified amount of time um and you know the attraction was very real and also in terms of raw intelligence you know my respect for was very real but I did not do that I did not go with her and the reason for me was very simple but it's it's part of this element of how ethics and feeling and so on really connects to the core of my character late in the conversation I then turned to her and asks we had just been talking about something about humanitarian work and helping the poor and the downtrodden under you know conversation we covered many different endings and turned to her and I just said oh so you know in your legal practice are you planning to address you know some of these issues are you engaged with some of the things we've just been talking about and I respect your honesty but what she said to me was no she had chosen to just go into corporate law and she was just going to do whatever paid the most money you know now obviously that's a paraphrase she talked about her professional aspirations and why she was doing what she did in her in her own terms but that was what it boiled down to now I do not regard that as evil and it says I don't even got it as bad I regarded as bunnell or or even just morally neutral but you know when she said that to me when she explained what her her current and future was to use a phrase that I got from a from very memorable context and in Buddhism you know I felt cold in my bones it really chilled me to the core and up to that point you know I felt so attracted to her and so interest in her and what have you you know probably if she hadn't said that to me or she had lied if she had just told me that yeah she really cares about helping the poor and downtrodden she was engaged in some kind of humanitarian worker at some some pretensions or aspirations to make the world a better place up any kind probably I would have gone to that hotel room with her and who knows theoretically we could still be in contact today theoretically we could be married today I doubt it but you know that that really chilled me in the same sense that I was saying before you know something like wool or leather it doesn't look bad doesn't feel bad doesn't smell bad as a finished product but what you know about it changes how you feel for me that was one of the most stark turning points were just suddenly what I know about someone changes how i feel about them and as they say it doesn't make me a nice guy it doesn't make me a morally good person quite the contrary I really kind of identify openly as someone who cares a great deal about morality and ethics but I'm willing to reflect in the fact that I don't conform to a lot of the social expectations that are placed on me neither here in China nor in Cambodia nor in Canada I do not meet the Canadian definition of a nice guy at all and i'm not interested in trying to uh but i think that in that sense you know someone like cheetah and someone like myself were really at opposite extremes cheetah i think he really is a nice guy he really when he says to you i hope you have a great weekend he really means it and i'll never say that's you but on the other hand both on the level of feeling and the level of rational thought about the future I really care about ethics I really you know I've been in the position many times having to quit a job or refuse a job before I was hired when I was offered a job you know refused to start for ethical reasons and one component of that is just thinking through ethically what's right and what's wrong but another component that also is that chil is the cold in my bones I felt the fact that I'm actually turned off by in this case you know literally turned off by a lot of these you know to me immoral things when they're when they're offered to me a lot of the things cheetah has been doing to get attention to me would be chilling a pope in fact that I wouldn't do them rationally because I'd be concerned about exactly this kind of thing like okay if you're going to create this invidious and poisonous atmosphere within veganism where everyone's stabbing each other in the back to get another 5,000 views this week blah blah blah what happens next how do we organize real activism how do we even organize an event like this in Thailand where people can meet each other and cooperate that's that's rational but i also have say a lot of the stuff he's been doing it would be revolting to me on the same ways leather and wool it would make me feel cold in my bones as in this other example so both both on the level of reasoning and a level of feeling i could never do the things that this guy has been doing and I don't know where that leaves us right now I wish I could tell you I mean I've got no response from cheetah I wish I could tell you that he would write back to me and say that despite all this other noise also the drama he's really committed to making it positive event happen that he reels really cares about this kind of organization and activism or proto activism of trying to get the ball rolling and that he really wants to you know support that event and and that he that even just wants to support his fellow youtubers just isn't asking a whole lot but i don't think i don't think i'm going to get that email and instead i think it's going to become an open question of you know for me and jason fazzino i'd still like to help mel with this that probably jason has got to organize a very different kind of event from what we first thought about where it's really based much more on a closed list of people being invited one at a time where we talked to vegan last eight vegan last ok are you committed can you arrive on this day when can you make it good we're going to book the hotel room for you where maybe it's going to be a short list of it's going to be 15 people maybe it's going to be 25 people it's going to be really a much more closed event and that's what happens I mean the type of the type of scandal mongering and backstab you just mean-spirited crude damage that's being done within veganism right now it results in something that could be open and happy and positive and inviting in strangers instead becomes closed it's too bad i still think we've got a lot of potential I still think we got a lot of talented people we're trying to make something positive happen short term and long term and the ultimate tragedy of this is that short-term thinking tends to resemble evil if you're only thinking short-term about your next video but your next five thousand viewers about your next 5,000 subscribers that's going to prevent you from even thinking as long term as this December let's organize an event in Thailand let's meet each other it's definitely going to prevent you from thinking about in the next five years the next ten years who can I cooperate with who can be my colleague who can really contribute in a meaningful way to this whole saving the planet thing that on some level all of us are committed to
doesn't mean that I agree with you tolerance doesn't mean that I have to make up excuses for you when you're wrong if I tolerate you means just that no more no less and I do tolerate people who disagree with me either on matters of principle or matters of tactics matters of strategy here on YouTube there have been a lot of games played lately in pursuit of Fame notoriety money a lot of drama mongering going on within the vegan scene and I mean you know to some extent I just tolerate it and to some extent also i think you know at least in the beginning people felt that this was a positive thing because the drama and the scandal mongering was supposed to be indirectly and eventually in pursuit of a larger goal whether you call that saving the planet or helping the animals or just promoting veganism itself but the problem is why i'm making this video right now on a practical level I've got to tell you the type of backstabbing the negative aspects of this scandal mongering behavior they actually are having a negative impact on my ability to organize real world activism right now and they'll be having a negative impact on numerous other people who are not going to make youtube videos talking about it they're creating an atmosphere of hostility and distrust that's counterproductive not long-term not invisibly very visibly already short term here and now no you see you love love is loyalty I watched Beanie Sigel listen Jay Z i watch the game we need this 50 i watch the locks when they dis puffy if i put a [ __ ] on is that won't happen to me if I put a [ __ ] on is that gonna happen to me loyalty is love love is loyalty I watched Beanie Sigel listen Jay Z i watch the game we need is 50 I watched a lot when they just puffy if I put a [ __ ] on is that gonna happen to me if I put a [ __ ] on is that gonna happen to me I Betis yen to kick this off and to put a human face on some of the philosophical questions I'm going to raise here I'm now going to read you an email from a guy named Timothy Timothy is one of my supporters on patreon paying one dollar a month currently the only income I've got in this world so if you guys want to sign up and join my patreon to could be fun for the both of us Timothy rights izel hello I followed you on YouTube for many months and have been part of your patreon discussion forum for a couple of months to your videos on history and politics drew me in and I had no idea it would spark such an interest in me for ecology and matters of principle what you said about being uncompromising and not being a nice guy resonated with me especially because that trait has been a frequent source of criticism for me I've maintained a vegan diet for two weeks now I believe I was chiefly influenced in this direction by you I never intend to abandon veganism but January a lead for military recruit training I know at least I'll be required to purchase wool for my dress uniform I'll do the best I can thank you for the content you produce I hope you keep it up for a long time that this message gets to you and that you have a good day keep it real it's the end of the message from Timothy for me the prospect of ethics relies on there being some sort of a connection between knowing and feeling I know that leather harms animals destroys the environment and so on and this changes how i feel about it now i had a conversation with a Chinese woman here a few days ago last week and she really had never thought about before what leather is made of or where it comes from she had never thought that buying leather entails killing animals and you know at first her reaction like you sort of don't know if the person is joking then you realize no sincerely this person is waking up to this fundamental fact of their life for the first time and they're recognizing that something they've in the past only looked at as a finished product as an item presented to consumers has this history behind it has these difficult ethical questions about you know how its produced and what it means to go to us is people if we're going to pay for it um but leather if you look at it if you smell it if you touch it in a store as a finished product there's nothing disgusting about it there's nothing revolting about it but what I know about leather can change how I feel about leather I can feel revolted to discover you know if I try something on in a store and I don't realize it's made of leather and then I check the label some of you have had that that experience that happening more often son like wool we need try sling on you're looking at it and then you only figure out that it has some hidden naik ingredients you may really feel revolted you may feel disgusted putting on leather yourself or when you meet a friend and your friend is wearing leather and so on but what I know changes how i feel and that shapes my conduct in my daily life in many many different ways now the question of being a nice guy and not being a nice guy is really very different from the question of being a moral person and it's also completely separate from this issue of Moral Sentiments of how you feel about ethical issues and problems with the same immediacy that i'm talking about feeling that leather is something bad or revolting even though it may look appealing you know it did it put it this way leather as a finished product it doesn't resemble the corpse of a dead animal in any way whatsoever I'm it very often leather looks very similar to plastic as a finished consumer product now you know this thing with with vegan cheetah who is currently you know one of our leading celebrity voices on veganism here in the digital vegan demi-monde in many ways cheetah is a nice guy you can see that publicly and I can say that some extent because I know him cheetah is the type of guy who says you know in his videos he looks in the camera says to you I hope you're having a great day I hope you have a great weekend and he really means it Oh think if you talk to him personally offline he is that kind of guy he actually hopes you're having a nice day he actually wishes you to evidence we can in many ways he is a nice guy and yet you know this video exists and a lot of controversy exists right now because he is doing real harm it got just to the prospect of effective activism here within veganism you know even proto activism even just us communicating with each other getting organized and making something happen now the the main example I'm concerned about I proposed really me and Jason fazzino together started discussing an event that we wanted to organize in Thailand in December now is this activism in the strictest sense no but the first steps towards having real meaningful activism emerged from this mess of you know discordant and dissonant personalities that are brought together by vegan YouTube and a lot of people were really excited about the idea so the idea was in its final form was to have an event in Thailand this December probably going up to and including New Year's Eve because many of the people involved that was really when they want to go be after christmas in the days leading up to New Year's Eve and then celebrate New Years Eve in Thailand and you know it was not going to be based on lectures it was not going to based on an academic conference it was going to give people the opportunity to see some elephants see some monkeys possibly visit you know Conservation Park for endangered turtles we're going to try to put together a couple of hands-on meaningful experiences like that but otherwise the only events would be to meet other vegans you know for the vegan last have the chance to meet the vegan cheetah face-to-face for the first time possibly for the light twins to meet the vid she to face to face the first time and you know for me to meet all these people and what have you and to create long-term friendships the long-term connections of trust and cooperation free at friendship you know what friends are one thing colleagues or another really if we're talking along as your political activism its colleagues that we want and colleagues that we need it's it's a really pragmatic form of trust and cooperation that trying to set up a basis for a long term and the the original concept for this when we were doing the brainstorm it was really me and Jason Posey know who did this brainstorming together we started and you know cheetah was was really an integral part of the of the idea and we talked about well you know cheetah doesn't travel much could we have this event closer to him in his hometown or in Virginia Beach where he has family uh you know we went through this long list of possibilities of possible organizing this in the United States and then finally when for various pragmatic reasons it really became clear that the place to hold this event would be Thailand what made sense was to do in Thailand I said well okay I've got to check with cheetah in terms of the time on December can he leave the United States at all would he attend this event now why is that you know uh why was it that from my perspective cheetah was an important part of this event to have him be there it is partly because he's a nice guy uh you know in terms of what people would actually do with that event me people hang out go to the beach have fun go to a go to a kick boxing club I definitely think that be part of it we could finally have the the you know long-awaited fistfight between vegan she'd have the light twins whatever I offered I said look if Jason Posey no 17 fistfight with me we could do that for charity too obviously not seriously the the box arena there's a limited number of things in terms of just entertainment that people will do aside from sitting down and talking about vegan politics and getting organized to save the planet and do all those wonderful important things we talked about on YouTube but that most of us have no clear plans on how to do so there are some contexts in which being a nice guy matters in which it's really an important trait and I can totally imagine a guy like cheetah being really thrilled to meet some of his fans face to face the first time to meet other youtubers to come together that way that same kind of bright positive attitude that guy has of you know I hope you're having a great day I hope you have a great weekend I can totally imagine him being a guy who at an event like that would really bring a lot of life and joy to it now the last time I was in Thailand I met with several of my fans several of my viewers and several other vegans on youtube and we did am you know we sat down and talked politics but again I'm not a nice guy I think a lot of those people enjoy meeting me would have you been meeting me and talking to me it's a lot like you can listen to any my fault my podcasts um i'm not i'm not i don't bring that kind of bright happy fun energy to something you know I sit down I want to really talk about about politics I remember so you know we did this events at a at a karaoke bar and there was a funny mome we were all kind of talking about both different things and everyone there was basically opposed to the permanent vacation that's you know why they were interested me interested meeting me about that event mer there was one point which I just said to people it was kind of a momentary pause in the conversation so what do you guys think about those elections coming up here on tile and asked a couple of other political questions and you know everyone there because they watch my channel they all your kind of half smiling but half silent and have awkward everyone kind of had a laugh at themselves because even though the people at that table they're critical of this and they've seen my own videos raising the question of why aren't vegans and Thailand more politically engaged more politically aware um nobody knew anything about it nobody had anything to say about those kinds of political questions with in Thailand so this event we talked about holding this December the end of December in Thailand I still think it's a great idea i still think could be a very positive thing for everybody involved and from my perspective as you guys know if you've been watching the videos on this channel I don't have any kind of personal animosity towards cheetah we don't have any personal conflict that I know of he's also stopped talking to me he stopped replying to my emails and from my perspective the weird thing is look cheetah I really thought about this event as being for you for him in many ways and for people like him the reason why the whole event was thought of as such a kind of fun vacation for the people involved is that it's not really for me and it's not for people like me uh he says I say you know I'm not that dude if I was planning my own vacation in Thailand I wouldn't go anywhere near the beach there are a lot of things that are interesting me in Thailand intellectually historically you know if I was doing an event for me I'd probably have it at the National Museum in con can I ever be I should have a couple of very area tight people show up and talk about the history of the dvaravati ruins with in Thailand in on whatever you know in terms of art archaeology history build ancient and modern you know 20th century politics Vietnam War politics there are so many things in that part in in Thailand that that are of interest to me and where I can imagine hosting an event for me and for people like me but this again you know it's partly I'm aware I'm not a nice guy and in a lot of ways this was supposed to be a nice event for nice guys you know is trying to just help organize something that people who really enjoy again this isn't even really activism it's just proto activism it's setting the foundation for cooperation and future um but now I'm in the situation where I'm writing to vegan cheetah and saying look I expected you to come to this event you know ultimately I've got to invest both time and money if I'm preparing this event because I'm here in Asia you go back and forth drinkin ming and Thailand pretty easily you know if we're setting the foundation for this like cheetah regardless of all this other noise and acrimony you're creating are you going to come are you committed to coming this matter are you committed to promoting this in your channel just to saying it's a good thing because you know obviously he's going to come he's going to film himself or we're gonna film him and you know have fun and so on you know just a very short time ago this was something really positive in your life cheetah that we that me and other people you know especially me and Jason Posey know we're really putting in work to make happen and now already that's falling apart you know now already I've got a look at sheet and say okay well what's happening and if cheetahs short-term strategy is to create invidious hatred between as many people as possible like the thing with vegan mojo and she just says he's remarked on the internet with that he has dirt on you know Jason and hey Nia that he's got some kind of scandal he's going to try to monger and so on like well you know there's what you do and there's the way that you do it okay well are we still going to get this kind of positivity from you are you still committed to making this particular event happen or are you out or you canceling your involvement you know what does that mean for you what does that mean for us what does it mean for anyone who's trying to make this mess of eccentrics into some kind of meaningful movement in the future notice she crazy man so the philosophical point I wanted to make in this video that's what's what will be interesting to me if I come back and watch this video 10 years from now you know being a nice guy what Timothy wrote to me about is very very different from being someone who's highly motivated to deal with ethics or it's also just totally unrelated from the feelings the sentiments that may shape your ethics in life and I mean I'm someone who's susceptible to both for me you know my engagement with moral and ethical problems it's not purely rational it's not just a academic debating Club or something it's part of how I feel and how I feel really does shape what I do um for me I mean I'm gonna tell this this anecdote in a very short manner but you know for me in my life it was an ant oh that really highlighted this you know the way I experience ethical questions and ethical things in my life i sat down once in a cafe with a young woman who had just finished law school she just started her career as a lawyer and she was a Dutch citizen she was citizen another ones but she was black uh and from the very first time she and I met each other we only met twice from the very first time we met each other there was just a tremendous chemistry between us tremendous physical attraction and we did have a very intelligent conversation she was an intelligent woman as well as one who was beautiful and very attractive to me but the reality was the the substance of the conversation for both of us was you know you start talking and the question is really i'm feeling very attracted to you are you feeling very attracted me also just both parties are really trying to figure out if the feeling is mutual and then once you know it is mutual what are you going to do next now so this woman who had just started her career as lawyer she talked to me a lot about humanitarian work but at that time I was really more involved in than I am now now I'm just a student learning Chinese blah blah blah most you guys know talk about humanitarian work some ethical issues in history and politics about a lot of things that are meaningful and important to me in my life you know what what she was choosing to talk about and we talked a little bit about her experience in law school on her starting you know to be to be a lawyer now at the end of the conversation what she said to me directly and it's the only second time I met up with her she directly propositioned me she asked me if I was going to come back to hotel room with her 00 extra pepper she she invited me to come back to her hotel room with her for about three hours she specified amount of time um and you know the attraction was very real and also in terms of raw intelligence you know my respect for was very real but I did not do that I did not go with her and the reason for me was very simple but it's it's part of this element of how ethics and feeling and so on really connects to the core of my character late in the conversation I then turned to her and asks we had just been talking about something about humanitarian work and helping the poor and the downtrodden under you know conversation we covered many different endings and turned to her and I just said oh so you know in your legal practice are you planning to address you know some of these issues are you engaged with some of the things we've just been talking about and I respect your honesty but what she said to me was no she had chosen to just go into corporate law and she was just going to do whatever paid the most money you know now obviously that's a paraphrase she talked about her professional aspirations and why she was doing what she did in her in her own terms but that was what it boiled down to now I do not regard that as evil and it says I don't even got it as bad I regarded as bunnell or or even just morally neutral but you know when she said that to me when she explained what her her current and future was to use a phrase that I got from a from very memorable context and in Buddhism you know I felt cold in my bones it really chilled me to the core and up to that point you know I felt so attracted to her and so interest in her and what have you you know probably if she hadn't said that to me or she had lied if she had just told me that yeah she really cares about helping the poor and downtrodden she was engaged in some kind of humanitarian worker at some some pretensions or aspirations to make the world a better place up any kind probably I would have gone to that hotel room with her and who knows theoretically we could still be in contact today theoretically we could be married today I doubt it but you know that that really chilled me in the same sense that I was saying before you know something like wool or leather it doesn't look bad doesn't feel bad doesn't smell bad as a finished product but what you know about it changes how you feel for me that was one of the most stark turning points were just suddenly what I know about someone changes how i feel about them and as they say it doesn't make me a nice guy it doesn't make me a morally good person quite the contrary I really kind of identify openly as someone who cares a great deal about morality and ethics but I'm willing to reflect in the fact that I don't conform to a lot of the social expectations that are placed on me neither here in China nor in Cambodia nor in Canada I do not meet the Canadian definition of a nice guy at all and i'm not interested in trying to uh but i think that in that sense you know someone like cheetah and someone like myself were really at opposite extremes cheetah i think he really is a nice guy he really when he says to you i hope you have a great weekend he really means it and i'll never say that's you but on the other hand both on the level of feeling and the level of rational thought about the future I really care about ethics I really you know I've been in the position many times having to quit a job or refuse a job before I was hired when I was offered a job you know refused to start for ethical reasons and one component of that is just thinking through ethically what's right and what's wrong but another component that also is that chil is the cold in my bones I felt the fact that I'm actually turned off by in this case you know literally turned off by a lot of these you know to me immoral things when they're when they're offered to me a lot of the things cheetah has been doing to get attention to me would be chilling a pope in fact that I wouldn't do them rationally because I'd be concerned about exactly this kind of thing like okay if you're going to create this invidious and poisonous atmosphere within veganism where everyone's stabbing each other in the back to get another 5,000 views this week blah blah blah what happens next how do we organize real activism how do we even organize an event like this in Thailand where people can meet each other and cooperate that's that's rational but i also have say a lot of the stuff he's been doing it would be revolting to me on the same ways leather and wool it would make me feel cold in my bones as in this other example so both both on the level of reasoning and a level of feeling i could never do the things that this guy has been doing and I don't know where that leaves us right now I wish I could tell you I mean I've got no response from cheetah I wish I could tell you that he would write back to me and say that despite all this other noise also the drama he's really committed to making it positive event happen that he reels really cares about this kind of organization and activism or proto activism of trying to get the ball rolling and that he really wants to you know support that event and and that he that even just wants to support his fellow youtubers just isn't asking a whole lot but i don't think i don't think i'm going to get that email and instead i think it's going to become an open question of you know for me and jason fazzino i'd still like to help mel with this that probably jason has got to organize a very different kind of event from what we first thought about where it's really based much more on a closed list of people being invited one at a time where we talked to vegan last eight vegan last ok are you committed can you arrive on this day when can you make it good we're going to book the hotel room for you where maybe it's going to be a short list of it's going to be 15 people maybe it's going to be 25 people it's going to be really a much more closed event and that's what happens I mean the type of the type of scandal mongering and backstab you just mean-spirited crude damage that's being done within veganism right now it results in something that could be open and happy and positive and inviting in strangers instead becomes closed it's too bad i still think we've got a lot of potential I still think we got a lot of talented people we're trying to make something positive happen short term and long term and the ultimate tragedy of this is that short-term thinking tends to resemble evil if you're only thinking short-term about your next video but your next five thousand viewers about your next 5,000 subscribers that's going to prevent you from even thinking as long term as this December let's organize an event in Thailand let's meet each other it's definitely going to prevent you from thinking about in the next five years the next ten years who can I cooperate with who can be my colleague who can really contribute in a meaningful way to this whole saving the planet thing that on some level all of us are committed to