Vegan vs. Vegan; Idiot vs. Idiot. (Vegan Gains & Unnatural Vegan)

suppose you had a conversation with
another human being who told you no no I don't use paper because I have too much respect for the Bears what do you mean you might say in reply why why would your relationship with bears why would your concern about the welfare and well-being of bears prevent you from using a piece of paper well you see in order to make paper human beings cut down forests and that deprives bears of their habitat so if I'm concerned about harm and well-being for bears how can I possibly use a piece of paper now this conversation be understandable if you were talking to a five-year-old what if you're talking to a fully grown adult with a university degree in philosophy who is a leader in the vegan movement what if this excuse or concern is being employed in the context of justifying the use of makeup that contains animal products purchasing leather boots and shoes once every few years eating and consuming animal products from time to time while still using the name vegan that's that's preposterous you say nobody would be stupid enough to say that or if someone did it must be some very obscure and minor and trivial figure in the movement well no it's not it's with a heavy heart once again that I have to criticize two of the most influential idiots in the vegan movement in the year 2018 on natural vegan and vegan gains they're both idiots this has been a contest of stupid versus dumb and it's impossible for me to say which one is better or which one is worse because they're both awful what is the difference between refusing to use palm oil and refusing to use olive oil what is the difference between a palm tree that produces a fruit that you crush to make oil and a palm tree that produces dates that you pick wash package and eat they all destroy animal habitat to a large extent they even destroy the same animal's habitat but hashtag speciesism even if it's not the same type of primate it's not the same orangutan it's not the same species of monkey or what have you that's being put out of house and home even if you're comparing bears to monkeys to camels to orangutans as vegans we're at least supposed to care about all large primates that have eyes and complex brains just about equally so it's not you can say always only orangutans we care about it's not the other types of monkeys and this of it it's completely laughably deeply morally incoherent and have any of you guys even seen a palm tree have you seen one of these palm trees that produces the fruit crushed to make oil have you walked around a grove you can look it up on YouTube and have beautiful detailed videos of people walking around a grove of these trees the type of palm trees that make the fruit crush soil it's gorgeous it's beautiful it's not nature it's not a forest it's not the wilderness neither is a grove of olive oil trees neither is a commercially maintained forest that's cut down for the pulp and paper industry that's planted and replanted and cut down to make pulp and paper that's turned into newspaper newsprint booklet booklets wood out what have you okay and yes cutting down one type of forest or even you maintaining it as a crop is going to impact bears the other is going to impact monkeys orangutan or what have you what is so fundamentally stupid about a grown adult claiming that they refuse to buy paper because they want to help the Bears is that even if everyone joined you in your moronic mission to eliminate paper from your daily life it would not help a single bear ten million people can go back to using chalkboards we can give up the modern convenience we've come to rely on of the paper booklet we can give up reading books entirely we can communicate by Braille H into stone and it won't help even one bear because the forest you're talking about that's now growing trees to be made into paper will instead switch to growing another profitable crop or commodity it won't be turned back into bear habitat never why why is it palm oil and not maple syrup why don't you tell me maple syrup is murder think of the think of the elk think of the deer think of the moose think of the bears think of the huge forests being cut down both to create the wood that's burned to boil away the maple syrup you don't know the process look it up and the trees that directly produce the SAP there are two types of forests that are maintained for this one of which is chopped down and one of which is maintained more long term just to produce maple syrup because if everyone not just vegans if all the meat-eaters decide it's a moral obscenity to buy paper or to buy maple syrup that land will not revert to the wilderness in Indonesia in Thailand in Cambodia in Laos if it's not profitable to grow one type of palm tree that produces oil they will grow another type of palm tree quite possibly date palms and I have never heard a vegan argue that for ethical reasons you shouldn't eat dates because you have to cut down a [ __ ] forest in the first place to plant the dates you idiots if we all stop eating dates they'll grow something else if you want to help the Bears or help the orangutans you have to do something positive you can't just keep doing something negative like looking at your fringe and saying what can I subtract to make the world a better place it's moronic especially if it is for the animals that's the biggest joke of all here and honestly I don't think any vegans are smart enough to be laughing in I only the meat eaters are smart enough to make fun of us for it nobody realizes how absurd this is major leaders in the vegan movement both of them are wrong on this vegan gains Richard and unnatural vegan Swayze [ __ ] sooner why I don't know you'd have to do the math you have to figure out how much harm and suffering is caused by palm oil you'd you have to I I really haven't looked into it but you are willing to accept the excuse that someone who's vegan can keep on calling themselves vegan while eating for chocolate bars and a few donuts and buying leather boots and using makeup with animal products you said buying several containers once every couple of months so what much it takes and they can still be vegan and that's fine that's moral and positive and good and we should all applaud that and appreciate that ok what is the moral difference with the same plot of land if it stops being oil palms and starts being date palms what is the difference I lived in this climate I was engaged in humanitarian work and research of being out on those farms what is the moral difference between a palm oil plantation and a rubber plantation they're both plantations neither one provides habitat for monkeys or orangutan or bears they provide money for human beings who try to exploit that land as economically efficiently as possible and the reason why palm oil is so popular is that it is one of the most economically efficient crops on the planet compared to any other oil crop it's mind-blowing it's one of the reasons people can do it in terms of biodiesel and fuel to replace gasoline that has not worked out but there's been a lot of studies there was hope from ecologist in the past that we can make some kind of transition like that okay look at the same piece of land covered with palm trees growing oil versus a plantation growing rubber versus a plantation growing dates what is the ethical difference now let's look at the same piece of land that's keeping cows in captivity from the day they are born till the day they die on a concrete floor under a steel shed with a human hand that's inserted in their anus periodically so a needle is inserted in the vagina to artificially inseminate them to keep them constantly pregnant to produce milk so that a vegan like kal-el can eat a chocolate bar and have popcorn at a movie theater do you do you see an ethical difference to what's happening with that piece of land an ethical difference and an ecological difference and in a palm oil plantation where would you rather take your kids for a [ __ ] picnic you'd rather go to the palm oil plantations are beautiful there olive oil plantations are gorgeous okay sitting down in a dairy farm and watching the slow-motion atrocity going on around you and the stench the filth and the runoff and the the poo and the urine and the flies and the hormones hang in the air and the misery and the moans of the cattle even the human component what it does to the employees what they do with their lives compared to being someone that gathers fruit from the vines of a the vines of a tree or whatever the branches of a tree is the case maybe you don't you don't think this is a significant difference then why are you vegan in what sense are these people vegan in this same context and unchallenged by vegan gains unnatural vegan Swasey unnatural vegan said so casually that scientifically she's not even sure if insects are sentient she said that insects probably aren't sentient anyway sentient I do not think she even knows the meaning of the word sentient talking about a be talking about an ant we're talking about animals that you can put under an x-ray under an MRI under a scanning electron microscope and see what a fabulously complex brain they have animals with huge eyes with complex behaviors social behaviors exploration mapping communication proven use of language animals that engage in warfare one tribe of ants going to war with another tribe which is beautiful and I don't know deeply disturbing to witness by the way if you see ants going to war with one another it's been written about for centuries - I think we've gone back to ancient texts but I remember Henry David Thoreau trying to write poetically but witnessing the war of the ants and his little patch of forest okay amazingly complex behaviors and I see proof of language and you're questioning sentience you're not questioning whether or not they can dream you're not questioning whether that they have imagination you're questioning their sentience as a vegan making excuses for kal-el's use of makeup that has the bodies of crushed-up insects in it to make its shade of red a little bit more appealing there are meat eaters who will tell you with complete conviction that they think chickens are not sentient and it's laughable for the same reason sentience is not intelligence it's not higher cognitive ability sentience just means they feel and perceive the world around them period if you can hold up the color red and hold up the color white and the animal reacts differently you can hold up a mirror there are all kinds of simple tests that's all it takes that sentience the hurdle for sentience is incredibly low if they feel or perceive the world and react to stimuli that's it you've got sentience bees and ants basically anything we can perceive as insects as human beings there is no scientific debate about whether or not they're sent yet shame on you a natural vegan for using the same [ __ ] excuses that meat eaters use for killing chickens and for killing fish and in these cases there is no difference it is just it's easy to prove or disprove bird intelligence ants and bee intelligence there's there is no difference here and to my knowledge vegan gains and others nobody else confront her there's nobody else called her on this and this is yet another example of her using quote unquote science made up off the top of her head pulled out of her ass complete lies to justify her momentary hypocritical convenience is is kal-el that good-looking like you know I have double standards too I always I always disagree with Isaac about this I disagree this is sure I have I have double standards I treat good-looking women differently than you know ugly and repulsive women are just kind of I do you know I'm self-critical about it but like unnatural vegan who are you trying to [ __ ] that you stoop so low and tell these lies so that this [ __ ] can rub the color red on her cheeks with the mushed up bodies of dead animals so she can wear a pair of boots that she thinks are cute if you were in love with her if you were dating her I can understand you wanting to make those excuses but the most basic minimum demand veganism makes on you is that we stop making those excuses for others we love and we stop making those excuses for ourselves that we answered us some kind of higher standard here unnatural vegan I don't know who you are trying to [ __ ] you are [ __ ] up the movement you have somehow slid into a position of power and influence ear with no wit and no charm and nothing to offer but one banal product review of another of vegan butter and vegan ice cream and this garbage if you sincerely don't know that ants and bees are sentient why would you employ it as an excuse in this context why wouldn't there just be a little bit of hesitancy in you to Google this or have some kind of precautionary principle rather than condemning of what but I mean I can't even ii am condemning insects to death i guess it's it's the same basis that you condemn the cows to death at the leather boots are minimal you fundamentally just do not give a [ __ ] well ok veganism to this it's a movement for people who give a [ __ ] and you know i sympathize with the tendency even if it's irrational on the other side i sympathize with the perfectionistic tendency to want to throw out all the palm in your kitchen because you think that's how you can make the world a better place but the tragedy is you can't to make the world a better place you have to take positive action you have to go to your government and lobby and say government I need you to draw a line on the map and say bear habitat and we need to get rid of all the farms and all the economic exploitation you need to be devoted to helping the Bears and in Indonesia or Cambodia we need to draw a square in the map and say hey this is a special place that's just monkey habitat or just orangutan habitat this is a national park that's what will actually help those animals survive they're never gonna be helped by you throwing out palm oil and buying olive oil instead if you regard that as evil it's the same evil this is a completely ineffectual e a completely ineffectual morally incoherent pseudo philosophy the ethics of intention argument offered by vegan gains does not work I've engaged that before when Gary France aione tried to use it it's nonsense tragically the ethics of harm reduction argument that unnatural vegan offers also doesn't work and I think that her approach comes out of a fundamental reluctance to deal with the tragedy of human and animal life on earth it's tragic and disturbing to really realize that there are millions of cows living in misery and captivity etc etc but it's also tragic and disturbing to recognize intelligence not just sentience but real reflective intelligence in the minds of ants and bees and realize that when we go to build a new house we will without hesitation destroy ant colonies and I am think twice about it that we have such total indifference to life intelligence and feeling when it just appears in a form that doesn't have facial expressions that we can easily sympathise with and the deeper tragedy still that vitiates veganism and I think vidi AIT's almost every political movement that in order to do something good you have to embrace doing harm and very often the harm is knowable and certain and the positive outcomes you're pursuing are very uncertain you have to commit to starting a war in Vietnam because you're trying to prevent communism from carrying out more mass murder such that a long record of doing all around the world at that point there were people who supported the Vietnam War for sincere well-informed ethical reasons they were trying to use Swayze's logic to use this [ __ ] utilitarian logic they were trying to reduce harm they were trying to avert suffering and if you have been alive at that time and you knew the history of communism from 1917 to 1955 you also might have been one of those people saying no we can't let this happen again we have to prevent a tragedy it's gonna kill millions of people guess what the outcomes were the United States dropped more bombs on Laos Laos is a tiny country in Southeast Asia the United States who dropped more bombs on Laos than they dropped on all of Germany in World War two more than they dropped on all of Japan during World War two more than they dropped on those two countries combined on a tiny poverty-stricken country in Southeast Asia and they still lost the war the Communists still took over this is where the logic of harm reduction will take you it'll take you down that rabbit hole and they'll take you down the rabbit hole of trying to throw away all the paper in your house and all the palm oil because who are you to impose on the Bears vegan movement is growing but it's growing on feet of clay it's on philosophical foundations that are rotten and self-contradictory and laughable and i see that fundamental stupidity coming out of the best-known leaders of our movement whether it's somebody like Gary Fran Sione who puts on a suit and tie vegan gains who puts on a wife-beater t-shirt put shows off his muscles or I don't know one natural vegan who puts on her makeup with a trowel and tries to kiss up to kal-el whatever the hell it is that's going on there okay we're gonna find our way forward with this movement because we have to we don't have a choice we don't have a better alternative there's only so much water and so much land on the planet and we can reduce our impact in terms of land use by over 70% by just convincing our fellow human beings to stop eating beef that's produced by cows eating soybeans and directly eat soy beans themselves etc etc the knock-on effects for economic efficiency and ecological outcomes that veganism can offer this is the most obvious and the most inevitable political cause in the history of the world but what we have is a method in search of a political philosophy that's the awkward stage that we're at everybody knows what the diet is everybody knows how to do it but they don't know why and they don't know how to market it to the public yet let me tell you something making a hypocrite of yourself making excuses for leather shoes if they're cute enough or red lipstick if it's red enough or movie theater popcorn if it's convenient enough it's not gonna be the future the way to earn the respect of the general public is not going to be to prove that your principles and convictions are a goddamn joke