Veganism, Obstacles to Cooperation (w. Ask Yourself)
01 July 2019 [link youtube]
The vegan movement is fractious and fragmentary, with invidious silences, narrowly defined ideological camps that dare not speak to one-another, brittleness of beliefs, and very little internal collaboration, co-operation or debate… and I spoke to Ask Yourself about his efforts to create a round-table for conversations of some kind to proceed upon.
And here's the link to his channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQNmHyGAKqzOT_JsVEs4eag/videos
Youtube Automatic Transcription
[Music]
[Music] and like talk through issues and you know it's it's just good for like kind of building community like cross-checking ideas and just you know getting communication happening so we're not so isolated and we're gonna do the first one on the ten I've actually got some good people who don't like got Mike Joey James Aaron Janice happy healthy vegan Richard and so look it sounds delightful it sounds totally positive I think if you put it to a vote for whether or not those people would let me join the vote is gonna be no so I'm not complaining but you know Aaron Janice hates my guts she tried to get a video deleted on my channel you know she did the full copyright claim thing where YouTube then asks her to prove that she has a court case against me there's more than one way to complain against the video but she made the copyright route the legal copyright claim and then you know it ended when Google said to her okay you have 30 days to show paperwork that you actually have legitimate legal conflict with this guy and then 30 days elapse so Aaron Janis hates my guts I think most of other people hate my guts you know Mike and I chatted a little bit recently here on your discord and we seem to get along fine so that was uh was a nice change of pace but you know yeah well I'm glad to hear he doesn't hate my guts cuz you know he and I disagree just to go to marijuana brain damage goes with marijuana in the past but I think I know I don't know if you if you are having a little democracy I don't know if it's put to a vote who gets the joining doesn't but I am completely confident that if it is put to a vote I would be excluded so oh I mean the whole idea is what I want is for it to grow and then oh time for it to get to a point that we can get like you know anyone who's really out there like kind of having an impact talking you know and ideally like I'd be thinking of people who are like we're really like having some serious impact I don't really count myself like among them like I got way less views than all those people I just was the one who had the idea to that's it but yeah be cool to like expand out who comes and then if it gets to a point through you know just able to get a bunch of people and then abs do it but I think on the first one I certainly don't want risk some like massive [ __ ] conflict or something well you you know I'm fairly genteel the thing I just respond to there is you know numbers numbers you also have to look at depth Isaac so means someone like you or someone like me the number of viewers you have is differing from the depth of influence and engagement you have on them because like supreme banana gets more views than you but I don't think supreme bananas self published book of poetry has the impact on people's lives that your content does nor that my contact does and I you know I get emails I get most people at all ages like some of them are in their 50s and 60s and some of them are teenagers saying wow you know your YouTube channel really made me you know take on a new perspective on life or whatever it was so that's all I'd say is you know I don't think I mean if you're reaching people in a really deep and meaningful way then I don't think 500 is a small number I think that's really meaningful and the other hand if it's if it's that shallow as a lot of this stuff is a lot of it's just cheerleading to the crowd you know it's telling people things they already want to hear whether it's about the vegan movement or the lifestyle or what have you that I don't really think we're reaching 50 thousand people is all that significant or meaningful yeah well I don't know for me I was thinking people who everyone watches together for conversation it's just something vegans would want to see like surely the people who are fans of both like just to take two examples like James and Mike would just be curious what happened if you put them in a room together like what do these guys have to say to each other you know I mean there's other reasons too like I think that like do you surely you agree it would be good if there was communication of course ya know what I've been trying to foster that for years and that was that was part of the basis of durianrider attacking me I'll come back back on that but I was trying to fill those those nice four years equal whatever five years but you know I just wonder would you give them a subject like for example would you say to them palm oil disgust or secondhand levity is that the idea or is you to bring together do you talk about things that are currently happening in the news like news about the begin movement or just free commitment this was my idea for how to do it well I think start because when you don't have people it's good like I mean I know these people but they don't know each other so I think that good to have some kind of like stuff on the table already to talk about so we don't have to make conversation from scratch just makes it easier and I was thinking every just do BYOD bring your own topic and everyone can just bring one thing and it can be about you know it could be anything to be a current event like you just suggested it could be politics about environment ethics activism you know vegan products feel like it could be literally anything vegan related and everyone can just bring a topic and just chat through them as a group you know there's still some time to program at the end then you know take some questions and I think that would be good I think people would just really appreciate it totally agree totally great totally positive so just to come back to the issue of beat me networking with other vegans which again I did four years you know the experience I had with during my tour it's not unique other people so get burn that way we're like so to give an example you may not remember her there was a very popular YouTube channel called the vegan lass and she deleted all of her stuff she was a severe anorexic so she had been hospitalized she was really dying from the effects of antibiotics to shed organ organ damage internal organ demo so just say so she was not she was not a little bit interacted she was when this bill went all the way where she was she was almost dead and frankly she still has very serious health problems but in when she became an ethical vegan and got engaged stuff so but she was she was in and out of hospital at the time and I think she was 25 she was not a young young person and I was talking to her obviously I was talking about you know what's going on in the vegan movement and what's going on with her you know we had started talking and even that during are you used that to condemn me as if I only think you said I was trying to socially that I did let go once seduce her and have sex with her she lives in Scotland and I was living in bridge yeah and like again like I'm like she and I laughed about it together too she was because you know at that time she was like oh he had the first two people he accused you of like seducing him proper crime one of them was a severe anorexia and the other one was severely obese it's like you know you can't read it but never worth living on opposite sides of the world like you know like it that these but the the way in which durianrider and vegan cheat and other people they used any kind of connection between people to vilify everyone and that's still going on with someone like Noor vegan I just got threatening email from Noor vegan yesterday day before yesterday for several days in a row we're like you know he wants to take the fact that I said something to somebody on Instagram and make it into you know a way to denounce it defaming so there was for a period of like more than two years the initial positivity about collaboration really bled out of the movement that way and then I guess the only other thing to note is really the you know the Gary Yourofsky effect so you're not old enough just in terms your veganism to remember like the peak of gary yourofsky's influence but Gary you got involved like one year after that not a long time after that but you know Gary Yourofsky he also really popularized this very militants in your face confrontational way of doing things which is now out of style it's already faded out but that also made cooperation I think very difficult because ever wanted to pretend that they had like absolute certainty and absolute faith and that they you know they were just there to scream at journalists and you know say to journalists you know you're a murderer and stuff you know so that also I think created a kind of toxic environment but that's my that's my general background why like the question is why isn't this happened already you know why is your idea why haven't ten people done it already I think that's that's kind of the background I think I think that I have a big answer to that so I think that the people who are running the big channels don't they I mean they just don't have much of a desire to like reach out to each other they're just working on their stuff they have other things gratifying them and so at the top of their list priorities and then anyone else would want to set it up usually just doesn't have kind of like the connections basically but for me at this point it's like I talked to mostly people so I can just you know just send them a message hey I had this idea if these people come do you want to come to you and you know so I just I'm kind of like just privileged to be in a spot where I can kind of make that happen so that's a I'm a little bit more cynical okay Mexi Mexi could have made this happen Mexi is a communist and not a software company the hardcore communist and I think Mexi is very uncomfortable with her own body now for Mexi to even do a podcast with a very physical health centered person like somebody who's into bodybuilding male or female you know someone whose form of vegan activism is more about health and beauty that would already be very difficult for her to do a podcast with someone who's basically a kind of Capitol Esther said someone who votes for the Democrat Party someone who likes Bill Clinton someone's a moderate leftist is already very difficult so I mean I think like Mexi completely could have done this still now she could do this but she hasn't and she won't because of how brittle and narrow the division in veganism are and the last time you and I talked about this idea which is like two and a half years ago I pointed to I said then I remember the first times that I said well it's a good idea but the reality is I can't really be at the same table with Cory McCarthy that was the example I used or um there was one other guy gives an example of far right where you can you can make up your own example but you know like there's some limit to how broad the table can be but on the other hand is you know I did make a big effort over years and years to sit at the same table with people I disagreed with you know in all kinds of ways including even Maude vegan you know yeah well look I don't I don't know about Mexican I feel like talk to watch your content I know she loved you know communist yeah I don't I don't know I mean I'd be happy to go on though like honestly for me I'm not thinking some people's views like to the extent that they want to discuss any particular thing that's great like I'm I'm just thinking about the angle like would be good to just get the community talking like I just I think that completely agree completely right now there's just doors that conversation opens up that aren't and and not to mention like I shouldn't downplay just just fun to have these conversations people like watching stuff like this well I think you were here when I asked Mike so this is Mike meaning like the vegan I asked Mike as he lives out in the middle of nowhere in Iowa I said Mike do you know like any vegans in real life within like 30 kilometers really probably at 30 miles cuz he's American but cuz you know he lives in the middle of what the woods in in Iowa and he immediately said like oh yeah yeah he knows like like 15 or more vegans within a short distance of him that is itself kind of amazing but you know those conversations and when I was in Vancouver Vancouver that's supposed to be a major major center for vegan activism there were like two vegans and all of Vancouver who would even talk to me and again a lot of it is like Mexi you know I don't mean specifically exactly mexi's ideology but there are people who are adherents to different very narrow very brittle ideologies and they won't talk to anyone who's from outside of their ideology so that's that's a lot of what I've seen going on in Canada and in the places I've lived in real life so but I I agree with you you know part of the solution is just getting people together to talk and find common ground and you know again I think one like the vegan talked to me he got the impression that I'm not insane you know whatever yeah I don't think he thinks you're insane I mean like a Mormon scene in a charming way okay well that speaks to another kind of goal that I have so a lot of in fact I guess a bunch of what I do is like trying to get the ball conversations so this is an example of trying to get conversations happening with kind of like the figureheads but I also want to make conversation happen on like smaller levels the discord does walk that right and speaking of Mike like he's been in here doing some debates recently he's gonna do one with this guy Dolan I'm just gonna be pretty funny Dolan is like the debate champion from Frank Tufano server so by like you know actual standards of anyone who knows about like philosophy or logic that's like the equivalent of like a low mid tier debater but like Frank Tufano server that's like the debate champion anyway he's gonna debate mics I'll be so broader point was just I want to get more stuff like that happening and I would get a lot of people in here anyone especially who has presence on the internet who wants debate here that's great because that draws attention to this and just just make it a Matt Hubbs conversations on veganism because I don't really know of anywhere where there's like just a huge hub where you can have like conversations there's some rims but forums are very slow good thing and they attract a very specific kind of like person like well they're like I mean it's good to I have what I wanted was like real-time conversations where like the whole public can come in and just engage in these like big discourses about veganism I think that'd be really good well the other thing that's very strange about YouTube as a platform for activism because you and I actually grew this we don't really regard YouTube as activism in itself but it's something that can lead to activism it's something that can be you know a catalyst for activism or we can philosophize about activism I do think you can do you to back to them I don't think that's what I do but I think you can do it it's a current concept yeah okay you know I think I think we agree on that it's just I remember you debating that with well not not really formally debate mmm are you talking about it with Paul Bashir where Paul Bashir was like super optimistic that like what you do on YouTube is act is like legitimate activism and you were like no I don't really think you know I really think the debate chamber is activism per se so remember you had a conversation about it from that that angle like I I don't really make content with the intent of like directly persuading carnist it's like yes what I hope to put out is like a clear philosophical picture of veganism that other you know once a activist but then a sure that people who are activists and just other vegans can take and then make use of for their own so example like just the average you know street activist who works with a V right like they're just gonna be having a bunch of conversations on the street it's helpful for person like that to have a clear philosophical like a model of their of the topic right I think that that will help them navigate those conversations they don't have to talk like like I talk but help them navigate and I think that that's kind of my goal is to provide clarity it's almost like content for other vegans like I'd like help other vegans get a clearer philosophical picture I I agree I think both your channel and my channel have been catalysts in that way because I remember just five years ago where the main line of reasoning on veganism was animals have souls you know puppies are cute piglets are cute you know they're like that was like the mean approach and street activism and on YouTube burn and everything else was this very woolly you know eliciting sympathy basis but which of course is gonna work sometimes it has enough of a success rate that people start to believe in it but you know philosophically it's not rigorous and when they really were not equipped or prepared to deal with a lot of the objections that meat eaters head and you know some of those objections are insincere but some of them are sincere or so you know they say back well what about killing rats you know you've heard all the arguments many times so I do think that's a meaningful thing in terms of preparing the groundwork for veganism as a philosophy and veganism is a political movement to really talk through contradictions and shortcomings and be mentally and intellectually as well as emotionally well I was gonna say Oh coming back to the basic premise of this kind of form this kind of conversation I know this happened to you in your first year on YouTube a lot maybe it happens less now the single biggest obstacle I encountered the single biggest obstacle to cooperating with other vegans I mean on the Internet is this they say well I've never really watched any of your videos but would they have a negative opinion basically of you that is not even based on watching a 10-minute YouTube video which is the easiest thing to do so that's the other reality of conversations is breaking down those barriers it's like you know indeed that was my problem with with footsoldier he had this opinion of me that was based on like what durianrider and freely said about me I remember he was actually there in Shanghai talking to people face-to-face so it's like this is the most porous medium like I'm not even asking you to go and read an article of written like you can casually listen to what my approach to veganism is while washing the dishes is a YouTube video but where people wouldn't even do that they judge you really harshly and really negatively maybe literally based on something insulting that was said about you on reddit or on a comment on an Instagram photo like and like and that is it where that's like the hope so again in terms of the ideological fragility and brittleness of the players in the game you know like I have to even like the people have been the worst people to be in the movement sometimes I have to turn around and praise them as the best and be like well at least at least they were going to watch on my videos or at least they're willing to talk to me for like 15 minutes before they decided to hate me and condemn me because there's like it's that level of backstabbing tends to be kind of normal even before they've seen one of your videos I can't say I've dealt with that people who I've had like really like prejudge me unfairly are like intersectional vegan some of whom are just like absolute cancer just the kind of people say like oh you're racist you're bigoted la blah blah blah know what no citation of you've said annexed explanation of why it's problematic like I tried to do an event in Toronto with AV because they request to come talk at a fundraiser and there's actually like crazy social justice work threatened to protest it and eventually got canceled then AV kind of like regulated on it and I got hub reinstated and then they escalated there they're like threats of protests and be a whole event the fundraiser actually got shut down Wow what did you guys just achieve you've got a logic shop shut down along with a fundraiser because you don't like someone participating based on something that you can't even a particularly so you you know this but you've probably just forgotten because it was it was a while ago but you know I was completely banned from all AV events with no explanation there was no allegation of racism or anything oh there was no reason ever so I was shut out of AV in Victoria Canada and in Vancouver Canada and I was able to talk to people who were higher level organizers in the organization and all they could say to me was it's just as stupid and petty as like high school cliques for who's cool like they they had no explanation no excuse and they're like no that's just how it is like somebody in a Facebook group said something bad about your sex life and now you're banned and that's it like and that's the way their whole organization works so like if you say this to me like I've got to say like I have a like in a sense I have no sympathy because it's like well like this whole organization is is is built on this kind of [ __ ] again I of course because I had that experience myself other people wrote in and told me about their negative experiences I I think I have a sense of a crop the cross-section of what goes wrong with a P but like again this work this reflects a broader problem for veganism it's a moment justjust to be clear like I'm not really saying that av did anything in fact I'm not like AV offered to AB me for an event they canceled under pressure but that was just a local matter that wasn't like the higher-ups in fact the higher-ups were the one tried to fix the situation and get me reinstated but then eventually enough pressure and the whole thing kind of like exploded so my complaint there is about these like just radical like left ideologues do you have in there who've just they're just lunatics they just think you're racist and sexist and they have no other that's just cancer we just don't need that it's unhelpful right but in my case but in my case what is the basis for banning me like you know within veganism nobody said within it so but it's it's there are no allegations of racism no allegations of sexism the case for banning me is like I guess I have a slightly controversial position on pet food you know I do think vegans should refuse to buy like dog food or cat food that's made out of meat but like it's this kind of thing but even that is too too provocative to be tolerated within the moment so I just say this this reflects the brittleness and the way in which you know what's already a tiny movement whittles itself down smaller and smaller [Music]
[Music] and like talk through issues and you know it's it's just good for like kind of building community like cross-checking ideas and just you know getting communication happening so we're not so isolated and we're gonna do the first one on the ten I've actually got some good people who don't like got Mike Joey James Aaron Janice happy healthy vegan Richard and so look it sounds delightful it sounds totally positive I think if you put it to a vote for whether or not those people would let me join the vote is gonna be no so I'm not complaining but you know Aaron Janice hates my guts she tried to get a video deleted on my channel you know she did the full copyright claim thing where YouTube then asks her to prove that she has a court case against me there's more than one way to complain against the video but she made the copyright route the legal copyright claim and then you know it ended when Google said to her okay you have 30 days to show paperwork that you actually have legitimate legal conflict with this guy and then 30 days elapse so Aaron Janis hates my guts I think most of other people hate my guts you know Mike and I chatted a little bit recently here on your discord and we seem to get along fine so that was uh was a nice change of pace but you know yeah well I'm glad to hear he doesn't hate my guts cuz you know he and I disagree just to go to marijuana brain damage goes with marijuana in the past but I think I know I don't know if you if you are having a little democracy I don't know if it's put to a vote who gets the joining doesn't but I am completely confident that if it is put to a vote I would be excluded so oh I mean the whole idea is what I want is for it to grow and then oh time for it to get to a point that we can get like you know anyone who's really out there like kind of having an impact talking you know and ideally like I'd be thinking of people who are like we're really like having some serious impact I don't really count myself like among them like I got way less views than all those people I just was the one who had the idea to that's it but yeah be cool to like expand out who comes and then if it gets to a point through you know just able to get a bunch of people and then abs do it but I think on the first one I certainly don't want risk some like massive [ __ ] conflict or something well you you know I'm fairly genteel the thing I just respond to there is you know numbers numbers you also have to look at depth Isaac so means someone like you or someone like me the number of viewers you have is differing from the depth of influence and engagement you have on them because like supreme banana gets more views than you but I don't think supreme bananas self published book of poetry has the impact on people's lives that your content does nor that my contact does and I you know I get emails I get most people at all ages like some of them are in their 50s and 60s and some of them are teenagers saying wow you know your YouTube channel really made me you know take on a new perspective on life or whatever it was so that's all I'd say is you know I don't think I mean if you're reaching people in a really deep and meaningful way then I don't think 500 is a small number I think that's really meaningful and the other hand if it's if it's that shallow as a lot of this stuff is a lot of it's just cheerleading to the crowd you know it's telling people things they already want to hear whether it's about the vegan movement or the lifestyle or what have you that I don't really think we're reaching 50 thousand people is all that significant or meaningful yeah well I don't know for me I was thinking people who everyone watches together for conversation it's just something vegans would want to see like surely the people who are fans of both like just to take two examples like James and Mike would just be curious what happened if you put them in a room together like what do these guys have to say to each other you know I mean there's other reasons too like I think that like do you surely you agree it would be good if there was communication of course ya know what I've been trying to foster that for years and that was that was part of the basis of durianrider attacking me I'll come back back on that but I was trying to fill those those nice four years equal whatever five years but you know I just wonder would you give them a subject like for example would you say to them palm oil disgust or secondhand levity is that the idea or is you to bring together do you talk about things that are currently happening in the news like news about the begin movement or just free commitment this was my idea for how to do it well I think start because when you don't have people it's good like I mean I know these people but they don't know each other so I think that good to have some kind of like stuff on the table already to talk about so we don't have to make conversation from scratch just makes it easier and I was thinking every just do BYOD bring your own topic and everyone can just bring one thing and it can be about you know it could be anything to be a current event like you just suggested it could be politics about environment ethics activism you know vegan products feel like it could be literally anything vegan related and everyone can just bring a topic and just chat through them as a group you know there's still some time to program at the end then you know take some questions and I think that would be good I think people would just really appreciate it totally agree totally great totally positive so just to come back to the issue of beat me networking with other vegans which again I did four years you know the experience I had with during my tour it's not unique other people so get burn that way we're like so to give an example you may not remember her there was a very popular YouTube channel called the vegan lass and she deleted all of her stuff she was a severe anorexic so she had been hospitalized she was really dying from the effects of antibiotics to shed organ organ damage internal organ demo so just say so she was not she was not a little bit interacted she was when this bill went all the way where she was she was almost dead and frankly she still has very serious health problems but in when she became an ethical vegan and got engaged stuff so but she was she was in and out of hospital at the time and I think she was 25 she was not a young young person and I was talking to her obviously I was talking about you know what's going on in the vegan movement and what's going on with her you know we had started talking and even that during are you used that to condemn me as if I only think you said I was trying to socially that I did let go once seduce her and have sex with her she lives in Scotland and I was living in bridge yeah and like again like I'm like she and I laughed about it together too she was because you know at that time she was like oh he had the first two people he accused you of like seducing him proper crime one of them was a severe anorexia and the other one was severely obese it's like you know you can't read it but never worth living on opposite sides of the world like you know like it that these but the the way in which durianrider and vegan cheat and other people they used any kind of connection between people to vilify everyone and that's still going on with someone like Noor vegan I just got threatening email from Noor vegan yesterday day before yesterday for several days in a row we're like you know he wants to take the fact that I said something to somebody on Instagram and make it into you know a way to denounce it defaming so there was for a period of like more than two years the initial positivity about collaboration really bled out of the movement that way and then I guess the only other thing to note is really the you know the Gary Yourofsky effect so you're not old enough just in terms your veganism to remember like the peak of gary yourofsky's influence but Gary you got involved like one year after that not a long time after that but you know Gary Yourofsky he also really popularized this very militants in your face confrontational way of doing things which is now out of style it's already faded out but that also made cooperation I think very difficult because ever wanted to pretend that they had like absolute certainty and absolute faith and that they you know they were just there to scream at journalists and you know say to journalists you know you're a murderer and stuff you know so that also I think created a kind of toxic environment but that's my that's my general background why like the question is why isn't this happened already you know why is your idea why haven't ten people done it already I think that's that's kind of the background I think I think that I have a big answer to that so I think that the people who are running the big channels don't they I mean they just don't have much of a desire to like reach out to each other they're just working on their stuff they have other things gratifying them and so at the top of their list priorities and then anyone else would want to set it up usually just doesn't have kind of like the connections basically but for me at this point it's like I talked to mostly people so I can just you know just send them a message hey I had this idea if these people come do you want to come to you and you know so I just I'm kind of like just privileged to be in a spot where I can kind of make that happen so that's a I'm a little bit more cynical okay Mexi Mexi could have made this happen Mexi is a communist and not a software company the hardcore communist and I think Mexi is very uncomfortable with her own body now for Mexi to even do a podcast with a very physical health centered person like somebody who's into bodybuilding male or female you know someone whose form of vegan activism is more about health and beauty that would already be very difficult for her to do a podcast with someone who's basically a kind of Capitol Esther said someone who votes for the Democrat Party someone who likes Bill Clinton someone's a moderate leftist is already very difficult so I mean I think like Mexi completely could have done this still now she could do this but she hasn't and she won't because of how brittle and narrow the division in veganism are and the last time you and I talked about this idea which is like two and a half years ago I pointed to I said then I remember the first times that I said well it's a good idea but the reality is I can't really be at the same table with Cory McCarthy that was the example I used or um there was one other guy gives an example of far right where you can you can make up your own example but you know like there's some limit to how broad the table can be but on the other hand is you know I did make a big effort over years and years to sit at the same table with people I disagreed with you know in all kinds of ways including even Maude vegan you know yeah well look I don't I don't know about Mexican I feel like talk to watch your content I know she loved you know communist yeah I don't I don't know I mean I'd be happy to go on though like honestly for me I'm not thinking some people's views like to the extent that they want to discuss any particular thing that's great like I'm I'm just thinking about the angle like would be good to just get the community talking like I just I think that completely agree completely right now there's just doors that conversation opens up that aren't and and not to mention like I shouldn't downplay just just fun to have these conversations people like watching stuff like this well I think you were here when I asked Mike so this is Mike meaning like the vegan I asked Mike as he lives out in the middle of nowhere in Iowa I said Mike do you know like any vegans in real life within like 30 kilometers really probably at 30 miles cuz he's American but cuz you know he lives in the middle of what the woods in in Iowa and he immediately said like oh yeah yeah he knows like like 15 or more vegans within a short distance of him that is itself kind of amazing but you know those conversations and when I was in Vancouver Vancouver that's supposed to be a major major center for vegan activism there were like two vegans and all of Vancouver who would even talk to me and again a lot of it is like Mexi you know I don't mean specifically exactly mexi's ideology but there are people who are adherents to different very narrow very brittle ideologies and they won't talk to anyone who's from outside of their ideology so that's that's a lot of what I've seen going on in Canada and in the places I've lived in real life so but I I agree with you you know part of the solution is just getting people together to talk and find common ground and you know again I think one like the vegan talked to me he got the impression that I'm not insane you know whatever yeah I don't think he thinks you're insane I mean like a Mormon scene in a charming way okay well that speaks to another kind of goal that I have so a lot of in fact I guess a bunch of what I do is like trying to get the ball conversations so this is an example of trying to get conversations happening with kind of like the figureheads but I also want to make conversation happen on like smaller levels the discord does walk that right and speaking of Mike like he's been in here doing some debates recently he's gonna do one with this guy Dolan I'm just gonna be pretty funny Dolan is like the debate champion from Frank Tufano server so by like you know actual standards of anyone who knows about like philosophy or logic that's like the equivalent of like a low mid tier debater but like Frank Tufano server that's like the debate champion anyway he's gonna debate mics I'll be so broader point was just I want to get more stuff like that happening and I would get a lot of people in here anyone especially who has presence on the internet who wants debate here that's great because that draws attention to this and just just make it a Matt Hubbs conversations on veganism because I don't really know of anywhere where there's like just a huge hub where you can have like conversations there's some rims but forums are very slow good thing and they attract a very specific kind of like person like well they're like I mean it's good to I have what I wanted was like real-time conversations where like the whole public can come in and just engage in these like big discourses about veganism I think that'd be really good well the other thing that's very strange about YouTube as a platform for activism because you and I actually grew this we don't really regard YouTube as activism in itself but it's something that can lead to activism it's something that can be you know a catalyst for activism or we can philosophize about activism I do think you can do you to back to them I don't think that's what I do but I think you can do it it's a current concept yeah okay you know I think I think we agree on that it's just I remember you debating that with well not not really formally debate mmm are you talking about it with Paul Bashir where Paul Bashir was like super optimistic that like what you do on YouTube is act is like legitimate activism and you were like no I don't really think you know I really think the debate chamber is activism per se so remember you had a conversation about it from that that angle like I I don't really make content with the intent of like directly persuading carnist it's like yes what I hope to put out is like a clear philosophical picture of veganism that other you know once a activist but then a sure that people who are activists and just other vegans can take and then make use of for their own so example like just the average you know street activist who works with a V right like they're just gonna be having a bunch of conversations on the street it's helpful for person like that to have a clear philosophical like a model of their of the topic right I think that that will help them navigate those conversations they don't have to talk like like I talk but help them navigate and I think that that's kind of my goal is to provide clarity it's almost like content for other vegans like I'd like help other vegans get a clearer philosophical picture I I agree I think both your channel and my channel have been catalysts in that way because I remember just five years ago where the main line of reasoning on veganism was animals have souls you know puppies are cute piglets are cute you know they're like that was like the mean approach and street activism and on YouTube burn and everything else was this very woolly you know eliciting sympathy basis but which of course is gonna work sometimes it has enough of a success rate that people start to believe in it but you know philosophically it's not rigorous and when they really were not equipped or prepared to deal with a lot of the objections that meat eaters head and you know some of those objections are insincere but some of them are sincere or so you know they say back well what about killing rats you know you've heard all the arguments many times so I do think that's a meaningful thing in terms of preparing the groundwork for veganism as a philosophy and veganism is a political movement to really talk through contradictions and shortcomings and be mentally and intellectually as well as emotionally well I was gonna say Oh coming back to the basic premise of this kind of form this kind of conversation I know this happened to you in your first year on YouTube a lot maybe it happens less now the single biggest obstacle I encountered the single biggest obstacle to cooperating with other vegans I mean on the Internet is this they say well I've never really watched any of your videos but would they have a negative opinion basically of you that is not even based on watching a 10-minute YouTube video which is the easiest thing to do so that's the other reality of conversations is breaking down those barriers it's like you know indeed that was my problem with with footsoldier he had this opinion of me that was based on like what durianrider and freely said about me I remember he was actually there in Shanghai talking to people face-to-face so it's like this is the most porous medium like I'm not even asking you to go and read an article of written like you can casually listen to what my approach to veganism is while washing the dishes is a YouTube video but where people wouldn't even do that they judge you really harshly and really negatively maybe literally based on something insulting that was said about you on reddit or on a comment on an Instagram photo like and like and that is it where that's like the hope so again in terms of the ideological fragility and brittleness of the players in the game you know like I have to even like the people have been the worst people to be in the movement sometimes I have to turn around and praise them as the best and be like well at least at least they were going to watch on my videos or at least they're willing to talk to me for like 15 minutes before they decided to hate me and condemn me because there's like it's that level of backstabbing tends to be kind of normal even before they've seen one of your videos I can't say I've dealt with that people who I've had like really like prejudge me unfairly are like intersectional vegan some of whom are just like absolute cancer just the kind of people say like oh you're racist you're bigoted la blah blah blah know what no citation of you've said annexed explanation of why it's problematic like I tried to do an event in Toronto with AV because they request to come talk at a fundraiser and there's actually like crazy social justice work threatened to protest it and eventually got canceled then AV kind of like regulated on it and I got hub reinstated and then they escalated there they're like threats of protests and be a whole event the fundraiser actually got shut down Wow what did you guys just achieve you've got a logic shop shut down along with a fundraiser because you don't like someone participating based on something that you can't even a particularly so you you know this but you've probably just forgotten because it was it was a while ago but you know I was completely banned from all AV events with no explanation there was no allegation of racism or anything oh there was no reason ever so I was shut out of AV in Victoria Canada and in Vancouver Canada and I was able to talk to people who were higher level organizers in the organization and all they could say to me was it's just as stupid and petty as like high school cliques for who's cool like they they had no explanation no excuse and they're like no that's just how it is like somebody in a Facebook group said something bad about your sex life and now you're banned and that's it like and that's the way their whole organization works so like if you say this to me like I've got to say like I have a like in a sense I have no sympathy because it's like well like this whole organization is is is built on this kind of [ __ ] again I of course because I had that experience myself other people wrote in and told me about their negative experiences I I think I have a sense of a crop the cross-section of what goes wrong with a P but like again this work this reflects a broader problem for veganism it's a moment justjust to be clear like I'm not really saying that av did anything in fact I'm not like AV offered to AB me for an event they canceled under pressure but that was just a local matter that wasn't like the higher-ups in fact the higher-ups were the one tried to fix the situation and get me reinstated but then eventually enough pressure and the whole thing kind of like exploded so my complaint there is about these like just radical like left ideologues do you have in there who've just they're just lunatics they just think you're racist and sexist and they have no other that's just cancer we just don't need that it's unhelpful right but in my case but in my case what is the basis for banning me like you know within veganism nobody said within it so but it's it's there are no allegations of racism no allegations of sexism the case for banning me is like I guess I have a slightly controversial position on pet food you know I do think vegans should refuse to buy like dog food or cat food that's made out of meat but like it's this kind of thing but even that is too too provocative to be tolerated within the moment so I just say this this reflects the brittleness and the way in which you know what's already a tiny movement whittles itself down smaller and smaller [Music]