Unnatural Vegan Hates Me, I Guess. (Vegan Civil War?)
26 June 2016 [link youtube]
[Satire:] Anyone who disagrees with anything in this video will be pilloried and ignored as (1) under-carbed, (2) secretly working for the meat industry, (3) fat (and "therefore" wrong for reasons that are never explained), and, of course, (4) a "fake vegan" trying to destroy the "unity" of the "community".
Sadly, in 2016, it was completely necessary to prefix that droll statement with the word "Satire". :-/
Youtube Automatic Transcription
in politics in your own mind in your own
heart you have to have a middle category for people who are neither your friends nor your enemies people who may disagree with you in ways that you find very disturbing very upsetting but who still aren't your enemies you know i'm gonna use an example I'm related to veganism and then surprised this video talks about veganism you know many years ago I remember I read an article that dealt with the issue of anti-semitism in European philosophy and it mentioned as an example of Voltaire to Voltaire is a famous author in European literature he's also sometimes discussed as a philosopher now the guy writing the modern author writing this article writing this critique in his opinion he said look you know anti-semitism is a real problem in philosophy there were many famous European philosophers who wrote anti-semitic tirades anti-semitic rants but I remember he just said you know there were guys like Voltaire who kind of say some offensive things about Jews who kind of say some insulting things but you know they're not really anti-semitic they're kind of just being a jerk and there has to be a kind of middle category where we don't force everybody to either be anti-semitic or Katy Semitic we have to have some kind of flexibility in saying well you know Voltaire said some offensive and insulting things about Judaism but he also said offensive things about Christianity that were similar you know Voltaire had a sort of satirical view of religion in general of tradition in general and you know he i think he especially disliked superstition so you look at that and say well is it really so surprising that he said some offensive things against jews and against judaism now i just mentioned this is only example i'm not taking position this i have read this much Voltaire or Voltaire is not of any great interest to me it's not something that is part of my life in any way but that argument in passing in the middle of an Academical that did stay with me or that you know what that's a good point you can't put everyone into the category of friend or enemy or one extreme or the other there has to be a middle ground for people who may be insensitive who may be jerks and you may say things that really upset you the really offend you because you know like I mean I think some of some of Voltaire's remarks about Judy's oh I think they are offensive I think people do have their feelings hurt but still you don't have to jump to that conclusion you have to put them into that category now um I want to make this clear it is not false humility on my part when I talk about veganism as a whole as being a sort of despised minority in the year 2016 we're not respected if you think about the social status of veganism compared to the social status of say Hinduism in the Western world Hinduism has much more respect and you know Hinduism has thousands of years of struggle behind it including you know in the last couple of centuries struggle against the British Empire there are real historical and political reasons for why people respect Hinduism and don't respect Buddhism Hindus also build temples run charities have political organizations there were a religion and a philosophical tradition that's massive in a sense again now go to any major university library and type into the computer hindu philosophy you can go to a section there's a big book shelf full of hindu philosophy you may not like it or you may love it whatever but there's a big section of the library full of books for what's called a new philosophy you go to that University and you type in vegan philosophy you may get you may get one small bookshelf you make it a couple of books on the shelf but it's not the case the veganism is a massive tradition like that it's not the case that we're respected as a minority in Western society the way that Hindus are you know we really are kind of despised and laughed at minority it's not false you know it's not false humility on my part it's real humility I'm aware of the position we're in and then within that tiny minority so vegans are a small minority you weren't well respected I'm in an even smaller minority I'm in a minority of vegans who oppose domestication of animals I'm in the minority of vegans who really care about habitat conservation you know forests rain forests deserts Savannah whatever means all kinds of different habitats I am really worried more about wild animals and less about the pet based paradigm it's not false humility I know that my views are unpopular in Western society as a whole and I told them my views from popular within veganism I'm not on an ego trip about it I'm really not so you know it's completely inevitable that many of my fellow vegans including people who are fans of my channel in some sense who are fans of some of my content will really dislike what I have to say on these issues so one example that someone who is not my close personal friend but who watches my channel and response my content is vague and so her name is Ann and she made her screen name vague am many of you already know her if not we'll give a link below this video um so vague and and I we are friendly but I wouldn't say we're close personal friends the last conversation we had on skype was great I think we talked for at least an hour you know just really friendly conversation if she sent me an email today saying she wanted to talk to me on skype again I would without asking why it's a okay when you have time we can chat so in that sense we are friendly um but you know like we've never talked about deep personal secrets you know we're not we're not close friends fine you're not getting closer we could in future we could be but you know whatever um you know again I kind of meet people with an open mind open heart away now Anne really disagrees with me about pet ownership and that's fine I got no hate in my heart towards her and I recognize I mean in terms of what I see on the Internet I think she's in the majority of vegans with her views on pit I think I'm in the minority now I also think I'm right and I also think the debate is worth having but there's no reason for us to hate each other personally over that and now Ann and I again and I really do respect this but Ann is speaking in her second language english is not her first language and I think that some of my communication problems of the past with her were for that reason yeah I remember she sent me one email and it just said like you know you don't seem trustworthy when you say this I don't think she meant that as an insult but this was in the middle of you know durianrider denouncing me and you know I wrote back I was like you know what the hell are you saying to me because like I didn't know she meant that she actually believed durian writers version of events of what happened Chiang Mai you know we've had communication problems uh and again I'm really glad I made the effort to talk to her by skype and we have some kind of friendly relationship you know why not I've talked so much about tolerance and cooperation and building bridges with people who you have real differences in the channel vegan cheetah is one example there are a million other exam no I get both fan mail and hate mail from Christians and from from religious Jews from Orthodox Jews you write to me you know there are people who watch my channel and appreciate what I have to say but they literally believe I'm going to hell after I die literally they look at me and think gee what a nice Jewish boy it's too bad he's an atheist he's going to hell after he dies but they still come to my channel they still enjoy what I have to say they still see some value in my contribution and you know I'm as polite as I can be in respond to those people but i'm also very open you've heard me say on this channel whole bunch of times I believe that when you pray to a god you are praying to a god that doesn't exist you can be offended you can be angry at me but you know I'm open about the fact that I'm a nihilistic atheist and I'm not gonna I'm not in order to flatter my viewers I'm not going to pretend to believe those things so I mean that's like the intro comes around to the fact that I did make a video in a Q&A and the contacts to doing question and answer with my viewers where I responded to people asking me further questions and my views on pet ownership and a lot of people actually did like that video and felt that it was substantial there were people who disagreed with it but you still felt it was a worthwhile 15 minutes of their life to watch and there were people who agreed with it and said it really meant selling to them to hear somebody else who shares their view because it is a minority view within because the vast majority of vegans are pro domestication of animals are pro pet ownership the vast majority of vegans are willing to accept any excuse for why literally chopping the balls off a dog castrating a dog is perfectly okay ever even why feeding cow meat to a pet cat is perfectly okay so that's the majority view and veganism I realized what I have to say is that you even have you so you know it is unfortunate but I got a very disconsolate message from a natural vegan and she really felt that that video was a personal attack against her now I'd like to say first of all objectively and subjectively that video is not a personal attack against her I think it's very clear throughout the first half of it that I'm responding to many different people who have criticized me in to screw with me not just a natural vegan and that I do mention you know unnatural vegan specifically and what I say is that I'm not responding to her because I feel that what she has to say is not worth responding to now I can understand that she had her feelings hurt and you know I'm big on giving apologies on this channel I can say you know I'm sorry I apologize that this hurt your feelings now the sense there's a sense in which that's sincere the sense in which I can apologize that you know I've heard of feelings but the sense in which it's not sincere is I feel this is really worth debating I feel that the content of that video and my earlier videos really is worth sharing on youtube I think this is an important issue to talk about I I don't feel that I've upset you i don't feel I've upset a natural vegan over something trivial like you know who wears too much makeup or someone's personal life or you know like the SN O'Neill controversy we have so many controversies of people insult each other over nothing and you know the other sense in which it's hard to be sincere is that in reality that the message she sent back to me really was insulting and it's strange because what she has to say to me is she really asked she asks me directly not to treat a criticism not treat people criticizing me as a personal attack and I don't and I'm in the absurd situation seem back to work well I can ask the same of you I disagreed with you on this one issue and it's not a personal attack against you i can ask you please do not treat this criticism as a personal attack in the past I have made many complimentary remarks about a natural vegan those are sincere compliments I have a long video about caffeine and alcohol use and I say many flattering things about her and her channel and the importance of her contribution to the vegan scene to digital veganism or digital vegan activism those compliments are completely sincere I can appreciate part of what she does while disagreeing with another part in the same way I think vague an appreciates some of what I do on this channel and she disagrees with other parts and this kind of mutual admiration naturally is going to be selective I'm going to like some things on your channel and you're going to dislike some of mine you know can can we be friends not always you know there has to be a middle category it can't be that everyone is either your friend or your enemy so it's too bad i mean i hope this is not the start of a few that last 50 years with a natural vegan deeply hating my guts i really do think if you watch every single video i have made about pet ownership i don't think a single one of them is a you know is a personal attack on a natural vegan or anyone else you know and in saying again in saying what a natural vegan has to say about this issue i think what she has to say on it is stupid i think it's beneath contempt I think it's not even worth critiquing yes that is a harsh view on her opinion on this one issue but that is as we say in the university that is a dram it's not ad hominem it's not saying she's a bad person it's not attacking her character it's not insulting her it's saying the content of her views on this one issue I have no respect for and in many other videos I've commented that other categories of her of her videos I do have respect for other at things she contributes to our discussion the internet I do appreciate do have respect for so why respond to that as a personal attack I mean the other stuff she had to say to me you know she said I'm the same as durianrider which is great especially given the current situation that I'm the same as durianrider you know because I would respond in this way well you know I I do think that's an insincere and caddy insult I have responded reasonably too many unreasonable criticisms on this channel you can see me respond to you know totally unreasonable criticism from Julia bore you've seen how I respond to criticism from durianrider himself you've seen me respond to criticism for many many people in a reasonable in a way that I try to make informative and interesting so you know I I have a long record at this point of responding reasonably even when other people's criticisms of me have been unreasonable and of inviting and encouraging descent which I do even within my patreon channel I tell people look you're entitled to have your opinion as long as it's on topic you can disagree with me and people do people think I'm wrong about pet ownership people think I'm wrong about all kinds of fine I know it's it's really not the case that I've respond to any of these things by denouncing people in the way that during writer does and you know I don't know the other side of it is if you're new to this channel if you haven't seen my videos in the past let's give it a chance uh you know if you think I'm a jerk if you think I'm unreasonable because of what I've had to say about pet ownership you'll probably find nine out of ten other topics that I'm talking about where you don't feel that way and on the other hand if you really do disagree with me on nine out of 10 topics maybe the one thing we have in common is veganism and maybe there's something really valuable in being subscribed to a YouTube channel that challenges you so profoundly a YouTube channel that is actually edgy and challenging that isn't just repeating the familiar mantras of veganism saving the world and solving all our problems and helping you with miraculous weight loss and make you feel energetic and vibrant and wonderful you know I mean I'm not appealing to a mass audience here I think there are people who value this channel because they agree with what I say but I think there are a lot of people who value this channel because they disagree and they feel those disagreements are worth happening they feel that those debates are substantive so it's too bad i mean if if a natural vegan is going to hate me forever if that's the cost of me being honest about issues that i really feel are important substantive on the internet then that's a cost i'm going to except
heart you have to have a middle category for people who are neither your friends nor your enemies people who may disagree with you in ways that you find very disturbing very upsetting but who still aren't your enemies you know i'm gonna use an example I'm related to veganism and then surprised this video talks about veganism you know many years ago I remember I read an article that dealt with the issue of anti-semitism in European philosophy and it mentioned as an example of Voltaire to Voltaire is a famous author in European literature he's also sometimes discussed as a philosopher now the guy writing the modern author writing this article writing this critique in his opinion he said look you know anti-semitism is a real problem in philosophy there were many famous European philosophers who wrote anti-semitic tirades anti-semitic rants but I remember he just said you know there were guys like Voltaire who kind of say some offensive things about Jews who kind of say some insulting things but you know they're not really anti-semitic they're kind of just being a jerk and there has to be a kind of middle category where we don't force everybody to either be anti-semitic or Katy Semitic we have to have some kind of flexibility in saying well you know Voltaire said some offensive and insulting things about Judaism but he also said offensive things about Christianity that were similar you know Voltaire had a sort of satirical view of religion in general of tradition in general and you know he i think he especially disliked superstition so you look at that and say well is it really so surprising that he said some offensive things against jews and against judaism now i just mentioned this is only example i'm not taking position this i have read this much Voltaire or Voltaire is not of any great interest to me it's not something that is part of my life in any way but that argument in passing in the middle of an Academical that did stay with me or that you know what that's a good point you can't put everyone into the category of friend or enemy or one extreme or the other there has to be a middle ground for people who may be insensitive who may be jerks and you may say things that really upset you the really offend you because you know like I mean I think some of some of Voltaire's remarks about Judy's oh I think they are offensive I think people do have their feelings hurt but still you don't have to jump to that conclusion you have to put them into that category now um I want to make this clear it is not false humility on my part when I talk about veganism as a whole as being a sort of despised minority in the year 2016 we're not respected if you think about the social status of veganism compared to the social status of say Hinduism in the Western world Hinduism has much more respect and you know Hinduism has thousands of years of struggle behind it including you know in the last couple of centuries struggle against the British Empire there are real historical and political reasons for why people respect Hinduism and don't respect Buddhism Hindus also build temples run charities have political organizations there were a religion and a philosophical tradition that's massive in a sense again now go to any major university library and type into the computer hindu philosophy you can go to a section there's a big book shelf full of hindu philosophy you may not like it or you may love it whatever but there's a big section of the library full of books for what's called a new philosophy you go to that University and you type in vegan philosophy you may get you may get one small bookshelf you make it a couple of books on the shelf but it's not the case the veganism is a massive tradition like that it's not the case that we're respected as a minority in Western society the way that Hindus are you know we really are kind of despised and laughed at minority it's not false you know it's not false humility on my part it's real humility I'm aware of the position we're in and then within that tiny minority so vegans are a small minority you weren't well respected I'm in an even smaller minority I'm in a minority of vegans who oppose domestication of animals I'm in the minority of vegans who really care about habitat conservation you know forests rain forests deserts Savannah whatever means all kinds of different habitats I am really worried more about wild animals and less about the pet based paradigm it's not false humility I know that my views are unpopular in Western society as a whole and I told them my views from popular within veganism I'm not on an ego trip about it I'm really not so you know it's completely inevitable that many of my fellow vegans including people who are fans of my channel in some sense who are fans of some of my content will really dislike what I have to say on these issues so one example that someone who is not my close personal friend but who watches my channel and response my content is vague and so her name is Ann and she made her screen name vague am many of you already know her if not we'll give a link below this video um so vague and and I we are friendly but I wouldn't say we're close personal friends the last conversation we had on skype was great I think we talked for at least an hour you know just really friendly conversation if she sent me an email today saying she wanted to talk to me on skype again I would without asking why it's a okay when you have time we can chat so in that sense we are friendly um but you know like we've never talked about deep personal secrets you know we're not we're not close friends fine you're not getting closer we could in future we could be but you know whatever um you know again I kind of meet people with an open mind open heart away now Anne really disagrees with me about pet ownership and that's fine I got no hate in my heart towards her and I recognize I mean in terms of what I see on the Internet I think she's in the majority of vegans with her views on pit I think I'm in the minority now I also think I'm right and I also think the debate is worth having but there's no reason for us to hate each other personally over that and now Ann and I again and I really do respect this but Ann is speaking in her second language english is not her first language and I think that some of my communication problems of the past with her were for that reason yeah I remember she sent me one email and it just said like you know you don't seem trustworthy when you say this I don't think she meant that as an insult but this was in the middle of you know durianrider denouncing me and you know I wrote back I was like you know what the hell are you saying to me because like I didn't know she meant that she actually believed durian writers version of events of what happened Chiang Mai you know we've had communication problems uh and again I'm really glad I made the effort to talk to her by skype and we have some kind of friendly relationship you know why not I've talked so much about tolerance and cooperation and building bridges with people who you have real differences in the channel vegan cheetah is one example there are a million other exam no I get both fan mail and hate mail from Christians and from from religious Jews from Orthodox Jews you write to me you know there are people who watch my channel and appreciate what I have to say but they literally believe I'm going to hell after I die literally they look at me and think gee what a nice Jewish boy it's too bad he's an atheist he's going to hell after he dies but they still come to my channel they still enjoy what I have to say they still see some value in my contribution and you know I'm as polite as I can be in respond to those people but i'm also very open you've heard me say on this channel whole bunch of times I believe that when you pray to a god you are praying to a god that doesn't exist you can be offended you can be angry at me but you know I'm open about the fact that I'm a nihilistic atheist and I'm not gonna I'm not in order to flatter my viewers I'm not going to pretend to believe those things so I mean that's like the intro comes around to the fact that I did make a video in a Q&A and the contacts to doing question and answer with my viewers where I responded to people asking me further questions and my views on pet ownership and a lot of people actually did like that video and felt that it was substantial there were people who disagreed with it but you still felt it was a worthwhile 15 minutes of their life to watch and there were people who agreed with it and said it really meant selling to them to hear somebody else who shares their view because it is a minority view within because the vast majority of vegans are pro domestication of animals are pro pet ownership the vast majority of vegans are willing to accept any excuse for why literally chopping the balls off a dog castrating a dog is perfectly okay ever even why feeding cow meat to a pet cat is perfectly okay so that's the majority view and veganism I realized what I have to say is that you even have you so you know it is unfortunate but I got a very disconsolate message from a natural vegan and she really felt that that video was a personal attack against her now I'd like to say first of all objectively and subjectively that video is not a personal attack against her I think it's very clear throughout the first half of it that I'm responding to many different people who have criticized me in to screw with me not just a natural vegan and that I do mention you know unnatural vegan specifically and what I say is that I'm not responding to her because I feel that what she has to say is not worth responding to now I can understand that she had her feelings hurt and you know I'm big on giving apologies on this channel I can say you know I'm sorry I apologize that this hurt your feelings now the sense there's a sense in which that's sincere the sense in which I can apologize that you know I've heard of feelings but the sense in which it's not sincere is I feel this is really worth debating I feel that the content of that video and my earlier videos really is worth sharing on youtube I think this is an important issue to talk about I I don't feel that I've upset you i don't feel I've upset a natural vegan over something trivial like you know who wears too much makeup or someone's personal life or you know like the SN O'Neill controversy we have so many controversies of people insult each other over nothing and you know the other sense in which it's hard to be sincere is that in reality that the message she sent back to me really was insulting and it's strange because what she has to say to me is she really asked she asks me directly not to treat a criticism not treat people criticizing me as a personal attack and I don't and I'm in the absurd situation seem back to work well I can ask the same of you I disagreed with you on this one issue and it's not a personal attack against you i can ask you please do not treat this criticism as a personal attack in the past I have made many complimentary remarks about a natural vegan those are sincere compliments I have a long video about caffeine and alcohol use and I say many flattering things about her and her channel and the importance of her contribution to the vegan scene to digital veganism or digital vegan activism those compliments are completely sincere I can appreciate part of what she does while disagreeing with another part in the same way I think vague an appreciates some of what I do on this channel and she disagrees with other parts and this kind of mutual admiration naturally is going to be selective I'm going to like some things on your channel and you're going to dislike some of mine you know can can we be friends not always you know there has to be a middle category it can't be that everyone is either your friend or your enemy so it's too bad i mean i hope this is not the start of a few that last 50 years with a natural vegan deeply hating my guts i really do think if you watch every single video i have made about pet ownership i don't think a single one of them is a you know is a personal attack on a natural vegan or anyone else you know and in saying again in saying what a natural vegan has to say about this issue i think what she has to say on it is stupid i think it's beneath contempt I think it's not even worth critiquing yes that is a harsh view on her opinion on this one issue but that is as we say in the university that is a dram it's not ad hominem it's not saying she's a bad person it's not attacking her character it's not insulting her it's saying the content of her views on this one issue I have no respect for and in many other videos I've commented that other categories of her of her videos I do have respect for other at things she contributes to our discussion the internet I do appreciate do have respect for so why respond to that as a personal attack I mean the other stuff she had to say to me you know she said I'm the same as durianrider which is great especially given the current situation that I'm the same as durianrider you know because I would respond in this way well you know I I do think that's an insincere and caddy insult I have responded reasonably too many unreasonable criticisms on this channel you can see me respond to you know totally unreasonable criticism from Julia bore you've seen how I respond to criticism from durianrider himself you've seen me respond to criticism for many many people in a reasonable in a way that I try to make informative and interesting so you know I I have a long record at this point of responding reasonably even when other people's criticisms of me have been unreasonable and of inviting and encouraging descent which I do even within my patreon channel I tell people look you're entitled to have your opinion as long as it's on topic you can disagree with me and people do people think I'm wrong about pet ownership people think I'm wrong about all kinds of fine I know it's it's really not the case that I've respond to any of these things by denouncing people in the way that during writer does and you know I don't know the other side of it is if you're new to this channel if you haven't seen my videos in the past let's give it a chance uh you know if you think I'm a jerk if you think I'm unreasonable because of what I've had to say about pet ownership you'll probably find nine out of ten other topics that I'm talking about where you don't feel that way and on the other hand if you really do disagree with me on nine out of 10 topics maybe the one thing we have in common is veganism and maybe there's something really valuable in being subscribed to a YouTube channel that challenges you so profoundly a YouTube channel that is actually edgy and challenging that isn't just repeating the familiar mantras of veganism saving the world and solving all our problems and helping you with miraculous weight loss and make you feel energetic and vibrant and wonderful you know I mean I'm not appealing to a mass audience here I think there are people who value this channel because they agree with what I say but I think there are a lot of people who value this channel because they disagree and they feel those disagreements are worth happening they feel that those debates are substantive so it's too bad i mean if if a natural vegan is going to hate me forever if that's the cost of me being honest about issues that i really feel are important substantive on the internet then that's a cost i'm going to except