The Vegan vs. Vegan Thing: Gary Francione vs. Melanie Joy.
13 July 2017 [link youtube]
Youtube Automatic Transcription
over a year ago I remember doing an
interview with vegan cheetah back when his channel and quite a different character from what has today in which he asked me if the kind of drama and conflict that we see within veganism if it was going to be a temporary feature if we were all didn't move on things were going to change if the debate in discourse in veganism was going to get more profound or what I think I think he asked a question on lines of or are we all just a bunch of shallow Fame [ __ ] looking to create conflict on the internet for no quick reset it was a good question it really fought that's not joking you can check the playlist section of this channel you'll find a playlist to some of my old conversations with cheetah and you can see how much his focus has shifted had changed as the years have gone by but I do have to ask myself that question when I look at example such as the conflict between gary france aione and dr. Melanie joy so if you don't know I've done book reviews on Gary France aione I have a again you can check the playlist section there's a playlist of just book reviews of a conversation over an hour along with Maude vegan where we both read and discussed what we believe is Gary pensiones final book talking about vegan politics and PETA activism Gary Franchione a is one of the most influential people in veganism over the last 50 years he's basically responsible for what is referred to as the abolitionist approach although of course there are other theorists and leaders in that in that area dr. Melanie joy is associated with the word carnism and she has a different approach to both the sale psychology of veganism itself the psychology of how to present veganism to meat eaters and ultimately how to organize an activist movement which she has done a great deal of the movement I associated with her about three years ago has now failed and folded she's still very active as an individual but I remember I signed up and joined Melanie Joy's organization back when she had a formal organization you could join and volunteer to be a part of and that's gone that's all disappeared now so that's an interesting example we have to learn from both successes and failures within veganism but yeah that was those less than four years ago that I remember what Melanie joy had going on and she was asking people to sign up to do different kinds of tasks you know if you had a background in journalism you could sign through this you go to background and something else you do that and it all it all faded it'll collapse so my basic point here is introducing top of this video both gary france aione and Melanie joy dr. Melanie joy believes they are people who have contributed a lot they put a lot of time and energy and they've influenced a lot of people and they've written books expressing their own theoretical and political views within veganism in the future the movement and they hate each other they hate each other that's why I open this but I give a vegan she'd have this question you know are people just Fame [ __ ] or what now I do not think Gary francy own a thinks of himself as a Fame [ __ ] I don't think he consciously imagines he's doing anything insincere or indirect when he writes these kind of bizarre screens against Melanie joy her approach so I'm looking here at a screenshot where he's attacking her use of the word invisibility and this is this is really surreal if you guys have seen what Melanie joy says I'm you know she talks about the invisibility of meat-eating in the sense that we're all surrounded by meat products every day we're surrounded by pieces of steak and lamb and hot dogs that we see in the shop but we incredibly rarely see actual cows or actual pigs we rarely see the reality of the slaughterhouses and the factories that produce this stuff there's a sense in which you know you sit down at a restaurant and there's one vegan option on the menu and 25 meat eating options there's a sense in which the culture of meat eating is so pervasive than the industries that produce and procure and provide finished meat products are so ubiquitous that the reality of where meat comes from and what it is becomes invisible to people living through it so they're very easy to sympathize with statement or position that she has and most of us weren't born vegan most of us grew up eating meat and became vegan so we all know where she's coming from we all know it's like a field away moreover even if you were born vegan you probably have friends and relatives and in talking to them and seeing how they live you see how real this invisibility is they don't think of milk in terms of where it comes from or how its made that that's invisible to them now yes it's a self-selected blindness it's willing ignorance not making excuses for it but there are people who pick up and buy dairy products with no awareness of the ethical implications or ecological consequences or what have you and to them from their perspective within a carnist culture with a majority meat-eating culture within a majority excuse making culture it's invisible hi everybody gary Franchione for the evolutionist approach there is a theory called carnism which says that the ideology of animal exploitation is invisible it's not something we're aware of or conditioned by if it were but it's not something we're really conscious of and it's invisible and so when we engage in animal exploitation we're participating in this invisible ideology we don't really sort of understand what we're doing because the all of the assumptions and the ideology that that causes us to engage in animal exploitation is not something we're aware because I'm visible to us now I think that is complete nonsense the reason why most people exploit animals they participate and they the ideology of animal exploitation is very explicit it's not invisible at all it's called animal welfare it's the animal welfare ideologies but you can see here in this screen shot Gary Franzen are just freaking out and I found a bunch of different articles and sources on Francey on his website where he's freaking out and frothing at the mouth and going on about how inexcusable and immoral this is and he views everyone that way I saw a hilarious video I couldn't find it on YouTube I searched for it of Gary Francine a ranting at a vegan anti-fur protester to Fran Sione it is not even acceptable to be a vegan who protests against fur anyone who protests against the use of fur is sexist and evil and an enemy of his movement and they're not a true abolitionist the true vegan because you've regards anti-fur protests as so evil just just to digress on that point there's a guy called earthling Edie I have one video critique of some of his philosophical statements rubs I sympathize there from getting this channel I also say positive things but whatever thing that has been doing for veganism earthling ed he says simply you know veganism is one thing and the anti-fur movement is another and if you've got the time and energy you can do both which I think solves that problem but not for Fran Sione I've seen video of him ranting about how anyone who protests against fur is sexist and is part of the oppression and exploitation of women and all this terrible stuff it is very clear that Fran Sione feels that anybody who is not with him is against him and even when he looks at dr. Melanie joy lifelong vegan activist that's how he feels it's very obvious this is about my interpretation I would have you so coming back to the leg motif that open this video you know is this a feature of veganism forever our vegan activist and vegan politically leaders even these ostensibly respectable ones like france aione and they'll enjoy are they just a bunch of drama creating shameful furs or is something else at work here is this is something something's going to change are we going to see an unending series of one leader tearing up the other leaders I think they all need each other you know I mean even will Tuttle there's a really funny video about that from tofu goddess will Tuttle hates Gary Yourofsky I think Gary Yourofsky hates everyone ever you know they all hate each other the level of infighting and mutual contempt and mutual disrespect is unbelievable even compared to other movements and especially when you put this in direct contrast with the over-the-top claims about you know compassion and loving the planet and loving all mankind and loving on a know loving cockroaches see vegans seriously stating that they wouldn't kill a cockroach and wouldn't hurt a fly but at the same time this is the level of hostility out in the book anyway my answer to vegan cheetah at that time and my answer now is the same look at two very different genres of music hip hop and jazz hip hop music from day one to the current date in 2017 hip hop it has always been a feature of the genre to have this kind of conflict this kind of mutual insult mutual intimidation which will conflict between artists it is a feature of the genre of hip hop music to have those kinds of conflicts whereas in jazz music it wasn't and isn't you know I'm sure once in a while there are a jazz musicians who hate each other their jazz musicians who have conflicts and disputes but it did not become a defining part of the genre I think the question we have to ask ourselves in veganism in 2017 looking toward the future is veganism going to be more like jazz music or is it going to be more like hip-hop and this is not just a question that applies to people like freelee and durianrider or people like me on YouTube it is a question that really applies to the most respectable faces that we have appearing on the TV news like gary france aione and dr. melanie joy and gary yourofsky that's that as respectable as it gets in veganism it's hard it was poppy for you to respect they may not think that what they're doing is hip-hop but it's a lot closer to hip-hop than it is to jazz music I banish yen [Music] ah bah Luo Yin
interview with vegan cheetah back when his channel and quite a different character from what has today in which he asked me if the kind of drama and conflict that we see within veganism if it was going to be a temporary feature if we were all didn't move on things were going to change if the debate in discourse in veganism was going to get more profound or what I think I think he asked a question on lines of or are we all just a bunch of shallow Fame [ __ ] looking to create conflict on the internet for no quick reset it was a good question it really fought that's not joking you can check the playlist section of this channel you'll find a playlist to some of my old conversations with cheetah and you can see how much his focus has shifted had changed as the years have gone by but I do have to ask myself that question when I look at example such as the conflict between gary france aione and dr. Melanie joy so if you don't know I've done book reviews on Gary France aione I have a again you can check the playlist section there's a playlist of just book reviews of a conversation over an hour along with Maude vegan where we both read and discussed what we believe is Gary pensiones final book talking about vegan politics and PETA activism Gary Franchione a is one of the most influential people in veganism over the last 50 years he's basically responsible for what is referred to as the abolitionist approach although of course there are other theorists and leaders in that in that area dr. Melanie joy is associated with the word carnism and she has a different approach to both the sale psychology of veganism itself the psychology of how to present veganism to meat eaters and ultimately how to organize an activist movement which she has done a great deal of the movement I associated with her about three years ago has now failed and folded she's still very active as an individual but I remember I signed up and joined Melanie Joy's organization back when she had a formal organization you could join and volunteer to be a part of and that's gone that's all disappeared now so that's an interesting example we have to learn from both successes and failures within veganism but yeah that was those less than four years ago that I remember what Melanie joy had going on and she was asking people to sign up to do different kinds of tasks you know if you had a background in journalism you could sign through this you go to background and something else you do that and it all it all faded it'll collapse so my basic point here is introducing top of this video both gary france aione and Melanie joy dr. Melanie joy believes they are people who have contributed a lot they put a lot of time and energy and they've influenced a lot of people and they've written books expressing their own theoretical and political views within veganism in the future the movement and they hate each other they hate each other that's why I open this but I give a vegan she'd have this question you know are people just Fame [ __ ] or what now I do not think Gary francy own a thinks of himself as a Fame [ __ ] I don't think he consciously imagines he's doing anything insincere or indirect when he writes these kind of bizarre screens against Melanie joy her approach so I'm looking here at a screenshot where he's attacking her use of the word invisibility and this is this is really surreal if you guys have seen what Melanie joy says I'm you know she talks about the invisibility of meat-eating in the sense that we're all surrounded by meat products every day we're surrounded by pieces of steak and lamb and hot dogs that we see in the shop but we incredibly rarely see actual cows or actual pigs we rarely see the reality of the slaughterhouses and the factories that produce this stuff there's a sense in which you know you sit down at a restaurant and there's one vegan option on the menu and 25 meat eating options there's a sense in which the culture of meat eating is so pervasive than the industries that produce and procure and provide finished meat products are so ubiquitous that the reality of where meat comes from and what it is becomes invisible to people living through it so they're very easy to sympathize with statement or position that she has and most of us weren't born vegan most of us grew up eating meat and became vegan so we all know where she's coming from we all know it's like a field away moreover even if you were born vegan you probably have friends and relatives and in talking to them and seeing how they live you see how real this invisibility is they don't think of milk in terms of where it comes from or how its made that that's invisible to them now yes it's a self-selected blindness it's willing ignorance not making excuses for it but there are people who pick up and buy dairy products with no awareness of the ethical implications or ecological consequences or what have you and to them from their perspective within a carnist culture with a majority meat-eating culture within a majority excuse making culture it's invisible hi everybody gary Franchione for the evolutionist approach there is a theory called carnism which says that the ideology of animal exploitation is invisible it's not something we're aware of or conditioned by if it were but it's not something we're really conscious of and it's invisible and so when we engage in animal exploitation we're participating in this invisible ideology we don't really sort of understand what we're doing because the all of the assumptions and the ideology that that causes us to engage in animal exploitation is not something we're aware because I'm visible to us now I think that is complete nonsense the reason why most people exploit animals they participate and they the ideology of animal exploitation is very explicit it's not invisible at all it's called animal welfare it's the animal welfare ideologies but you can see here in this screen shot Gary Franzen are just freaking out and I found a bunch of different articles and sources on Francey on his website where he's freaking out and frothing at the mouth and going on about how inexcusable and immoral this is and he views everyone that way I saw a hilarious video I couldn't find it on YouTube I searched for it of Gary Francine a ranting at a vegan anti-fur protester to Fran Sione it is not even acceptable to be a vegan who protests against fur anyone who protests against the use of fur is sexist and evil and an enemy of his movement and they're not a true abolitionist the true vegan because you've regards anti-fur protests as so evil just just to digress on that point there's a guy called earthling Edie I have one video critique of some of his philosophical statements rubs I sympathize there from getting this channel I also say positive things but whatever thing that has been doing for veganism earthling ed he says simply you know veganism is one thing and the anti-fur movement is another and if you've got the time and energy you can do both which I think solves that problem but not for Fran Sione I've seen video of him ranting about how anyone who protests against fur is sexist and is part of the oppression and exploitation of women and all this terrible stuff it is very clear that Fran Sione feels that anybody who is not with him is against him and even when he looks at dr. Melanie joy lifelong vegan activist that's how he feels it's very obvious this is about my interpretation I would have you so coming back to the leg motif that open this video you know is this a feature of veganism forever our vegan activist and vegan politically leaders even these ostensibly respectable ones like france aione and they'll enjoy are they just a bunch of drama creating shameful furs or is something else at work here is this is something something's going to change are we going to see an unending series of one leader tearing up the other leaders I think they all need each other you know I mean even will Tuttle there's a really funny video about that from tofu goddess will Tuttle hates Gary Yourofsky I think Gary Yourofsky hates everyone ever you know they all hate each other the level of infighting and mutual contempt and mutual disrespect is unbelievable even compared to other movements and especially when you put this in direct contrast with the over-the-top claims about you know compassion and loving the planet and loving all mankind and loving on a know loving cockroaches see vegans seriously stating that they wouldn't kill a cockroach and wouldn't hurt a fly but at the same time this is the level of hostility out in the book anyway my answer to vegan cheetah at that time and my answer now is the same look at two very different genres of music hip hop and jazz hip hop music from day one to the current date in 2017 hip hop it has always been a feature of the genre to have this kind of conflict this kind of mutual insult mutual intimidation which will conflict between artists it is a feature of the genre of hip hop music to have those kinds of conflicts whereas in jazz music it wasn't and isn't you know I'm sure once in a while there are a jazz musicians who hate each other their jazz musicians who have conflicts and disputes but it did not become a defining part of the genre I think the question we have to ask ourselves in veganism in 2017 looking toward the future is veganism going to be more like jazz music or is it going to be more like hip-hop and this is not just a question that applies to people like freelee and durianrider or people like me on YouTube it is a question that really applies to the most respectable faces that we have appearing on the TV news like gary france aione and dr. melanie joy and gary yourofsky that's that as respectable as it gets in veganism it's hard it was poppy for you to respect they may not think that what they're doing is hip-hop but it's a lot closer to hip-hop than it is to jazz music I banish yen [Music] ah bah Luo Yin