The Nature of Nature: Mod Vegan in Conversation with Eisel Mazard.

I banish yen and I don't say time
stories and desire for sharing my channel remember I had said in one of his videos once before and along with his kind of community video to one of the things that stood with me was basically that this it's a good sign of a person when they go hours and hours and hours without eating food because you know it's got animal products in it and they don't want to break their kind of the vegan streak for the one to the a better phrase but they don't want to break being vegan and always let said you know you could go to a stand no you could easily just walk up to that stall by the cake the cupcake the I even food with the animal products in it and no one would say anything to his own you know what's your choice or whatever but a three sign of an ethical person when they can go hungry to avoid that no they can just go hungry for an extra couple of hours before they get home or before they come into contact with a vegan III or whatever its sign of a great person when the vast majority of people would just say look I'm hungry so I'm going to eat it and our heart wouldn't really be in veganism if they were vegan at the time and I would consider myself that person would go hungry for an extra few hours just to avoid an animal products I would and I further are vegans big-name vegans on YouTube who said that they just ease they'd eat the food with animal products and a no problem they wouldn't really care that stretch out to do that you know vegan cheese there was one of them he was actually on his you know live stream but I easily when he said it every community is drawn to people in leadership and in positions of power but what you also have to realize is that the people who put these people in the positions of power are the same people that can remove them and implement new leaders and new people in those positions I don't know I you know I think one of the questions is to be at least is what really is this permanent vacation which is such a great catch phrase that I Zell created I think genius but i do question it to what I think he should do which I think would be great is I think he should create some sort of meetup where he goes and he says hey you know we're gonna sit down and we're gonna I want to see really who is as passionate as me it's hard to tell on you too aah buh new chin probably the things that we disagree with about the most are like nature as a baseline I would say that's probably one that we kind of have a bit of and I think it's because you're more into conservation like I was reading a little bit of Tom Regan the other day and I can see how um that that it makes it a little bit more of a challenge if you're really into conservation like especially because of the talking that you've done about hunting and everything like that and I totally understand where you're coming from I just happen to disagree a bed like I I feel like there's often solutions that maybe don't involve you know killing animals and things like that well justjust to start with so nature's basements that's a huge topic so I myself have never used the phrase nature as a baseline I'm not objecting to it by just it's fine totally i'm not i'm not offended to have that attribute to me but it says it slightly different than what my approach actually is are you familiar with the currently somewhat popular influential work by will kim laka a zoo zool palace or zoo palace or zillow paulus however you want to pronounce it you heard about this book well it's it's a very strange thing that I mean when you have a book like that written by academics and they're both believe both authors are career professors negatives will come look at definitely as I've had a couple e-mails back and forth him he's a Queen's he's Canadian talent or he's it he's at a Canadian university I don't know if he's born and raised here um that's probably less influential than my videos on YouTube and I I I say that partly because I used to work in academic nonfiction publishing and if we if we had a book that sold 500 copies in one year that's a smash hit and and many of those copies don't get read many of them go into academic libraries and archives or someone buys them and it sits in their office you know no offense that's the nature of academic nonfiction publishing and I always thought so when I worked in that area of publishing I assume that the people doing picture books sold more copies coffee table books books a lot of photographs nope for up 44 heavily illustrated books they just use the term photo books industry 300 copies is considered a smack shame on suppose is even though of course they're more expensive there are a couple hundred dollars those the sociable yeah I don't know if you've ever had to print things for props but really I did a lot of assistive working so they would always get like you know make sure that I get credit for my work and everything that's why they make us fall by their books of them right well and also I mean one of things I pointed it before my youtube channel is that they go to conferences and then they're kind of lucky if you know 50 p will be fabulous if they had 50 people here they're paper at a conference that be a great conference more likely to be 30 and 15 of the people are there because their boyfriend or girlfriend brought them you don't mean like Oh to the 30 people not everyone wants to hear it and so I mean I've I've been like that when I was married I bring my wife to some conference on Buddhism she's got to sit there and listen to it I'm you know I'm understanding what's going on but you know so chewy uh yeah so Kim Luca has this book called zoo opolis or if you want to be really correct so zillow Paulus um you know and in that book he kind of leaves the issue of wild animals last and least and it so there are many many things I disagree with in the book there are many things I think are hilariously wrong and misguided but one of the first things I thought when looking at the table of contents was for me this book I would start by turning it upside down if I were writing this book I'd start with the question of the relationship to human beings and wild animals and looking forward in the 21st century among other things I think that's very fundamentally different today than it was a hundred years ago or a thousand years ago and I feel that way generally about veganism we need to focus on the Futurity of the concept and of course for me i'm a former scholar of buddhism and i'm here in china i mean one of the cultures that she has a pretty deep and ancient and ongoing cultural tradition of some kind of vegetarianism / veganism but nevertheless a she was just writing an essay in chinese and probably going to perform on youtube where I say no actually really what we're doing Tina has no connection to that kind of feudal and magical and supernatural thinking about vegetarianism or have you um so you know I do i do put emphasis on it I do think it's it's tremendously important i think it's the way to approach the problems we're thinking socially if we think about how our society operates in the future a put great emphasis the relay should be human beings and animals and the the primacy of that concept makes it much easier for me to deal with concepts that for example for will kill Luca are deeply troubling so we'll chemica he starts with domesticated pets which many vegans do they start with this idea you love your pets how should we treat our pets and he comes up with all kinds of rights and responsibilities and obligations towards pets and you know a lot of vegans get bogged down in this well if your dog has a broken leg and has the flu do you have the right to kill it or not you know i'm currently you know what currently under worley you know if the treatment is too expensive and families where they'll just kill the dog or the horse or whatever it is kept as a pet and so you know is sort of whatever let's spend 200 pages thinking about in detail well what should be the legal guidelines for the right to you know give your pet treatment or you know should the government pay for your dog to have access to medical care if the families okay fine so we have all these details and then then we have a major moral quandary what we deal with something as ridiculous as rats so we'll we'll kimika says that rat should have the rights of citizens that you do not have the right to kill rats that rats live in a city he uses the term denizens not citizens doctor misrepresented and now we start drawing up the legal rights for rats now you you and I both come from Canada we've both lived in we've both lived in green producing parts of Canada I think you guys still farm some grain and in a breath do you know any any grain farm in Alberta that would even have the option of not killing rats um I've lived in cities in the tropics uh in Taiwan was especially striking if if you didn't kill rats and cockroaches the city would cease to be inhabited by human beings know what I mean and this is kind of brutal thing but this is that the train of thought that starts with establishing a bill of rights for domesticated animals and then proceeds through I think he uses terms like liminal animals but you know animals that are neither wild nor feral the things like rats that live in the city and then finally as a kind of footnote we get out to to the wilderness so it's true my approach is really the exact opposite of that and in as much as that's that's currently a somewhat famous book that contrast is probably worth talking about I do not use terms like nature's of baseline um I can say more about rats but ok but just to finish this point I well actually okay the one of the things do brats is this is also why it's so useful I put emphasis on things like bears I think in Alberta also you have bears come into the city I don't think I don't think bears have any rights in the city on the grass of any rights in city I think bearers and rats together should live in the forest and should have relatively little engagement with human beings they'll have some but you know that's that's it so if a bear comes into the city I think our responsibility is to try to remove it without harming at you know to tranquilize it and put in the forest but the brutal reality in Canada is very often we kill the Bears and I would say the same with rats or squirrels that ideally we would be able to trap them and put them somewhere in the wild where they live without human beings so for me that whole paradigm is very very simple now is is nature doesn't eat you have any kind of symbolic or transcendental significance for me I feel the answer is no you may perceive me differently uh I think that you know I would compare it to raising children and then your children having self-reliance ideally one day your children do not need your involvement in their lives maybe you can still talk and meet for coffee or something that maybe they can benefit from your with stuff it's upset but there's some point at which ideally they're out on their own taking their own rescue making decisions the bear in the forest is in that sense self-reliant and I think that also leads us to a bunch of you know pretty pragmatic conclusions that you know out of a given group of bears out of a group of 20 or 30 that ideally we as humans we don't have to decide which bears live in which bears die when we're deeply involved with bears whether they're in a zoo or some kind of special conservation space you may have a situation where the Bears get sick and then you have to choose okay which bears are we going to quarantine and then you are deciding which bears I mean life is full of those contradictions but for me again it's not that you know wilderness red in tooth and Fang is an ideal that I want to glamorize but i think that the point is okay what what is it we're aiming for him for a situation where the Bears themselves in effect decide who lives and who dies or decide a strong word they determine which bears are going to live in which bears are going to die and we hopefully have have relatively little to do with it so that's that's wilderness in my encapsulation wilderness is the point which humans are no you're making those decisions although as you know my videos I include lots of exceptions to the rule and certainly something like a plague breaking out or a local population collapsing or a factory poisons the river and now all of a sudden you have to evacuate the bears because the Bears are going to eat the fish and the fish are toxic blah blah blah there are all kinds of situations that are exceptions to the rules but yeah to me that's all the witnesses okay yeah because i think that when we start looking at the future future further on we're going to have more problems like this especially as wildlife you know wild habitat is destroyed and everything like that um i'm curious what you think about animals suffering too because we've had that discussion with you know the Lions in the zoo and everything like that they do live longer um and as we like right now we don't know what the Lions want but i do think as neuroscience progresses and things like that we're gonna understand better weather animals care about their suffering and things like that and whether in the future we want to do anything to intervene to prevent animal suffering to maybe you know even perhaps changing the paradigm like I mean this is talking hundreds of years in the future I don't know if you're familiar with the ideas of David Pierce but um so he's a kind of a vegan philosopher but he's a futurist and his ideas eventually we are going to be trying to prevent animal suffering I mean we're this could be thousands of years in the future but as we do develop you know artificial meat and things like that we could have lions eating that say instead of um other animals like I don't know I mean it's probably not pragmatic of us maybe to be thinking about this right now but I do think it's good to to at least philosophize about it a bit just to think about because I think even within the next 15 years it's going to be an issue with domesticated cats so I'm just curious what you think about that well I say there's a lot of the bad news for human beings is good news for for wild animals Japan is one of the most densely populated most economically advanced countries in the world I dare say Japan is much more advanced than Canada in terms of just raw economic facts Japan's countryside is empty and getting emptier Japan has more empty land than ever before and this is partly because what used to be important forms of Agriculture has ceased to be profitable Japan is actually now in a situation where they can very easily expand the amount of force they have which nobody saw coming let me know in terms of future Esther people make predictions nobody thought oh you know Japan the way we thought Japan skaters that would be overpopulated but know when you go out to most rural areas in japan now there are just some elderly people living there they don't here in China we have a pattern where many of the rural villages are elderly people with young children because the parents leave the children in the village but in Japan you don't even get that you get some elderly people and then maybe a few poor immigrants from the Philippines or Cambodia or something who are doing a few jobs at the last you know a Grigori all goods processing milburn heavy so I just say um something no I find that terrifying like in terms of my background in political science and economics I actually think this is deeply problematic and I by the way and tend towards more of a deep ecology almost sort of idea like I see a lot of ideas that you present almost that seem to be I don't know a bit more like that i don't know that's been kind of my impression a little bit i mean I'm not saying you're Ted Kaczynski or anything I just see a little bit more of that and and when you do look at the world worldwide like you look at Latin America everyone is moving to the cities you're absolutely right that has been the pattern that we've been observing certainly in developing nations so and even here in Canada you see you a rural area shrinking and those kind of dying small rural centers do you have more to say we never get back to nature to pay five I would get leaf it yeah I I think it's more I'm just for everything I do notice that sometimes people do use this idea that the natural is the superior that you because you have discussed this before that you know the life of a dog should be the life of a dog in the wild kind of idea and that i'm not sure about because i think just like us i do think that animals have a right if they would rather and this is again not something that we're going to be facing within the next decade or so it's going to take you no time and neuroscience to understand but once we do know what what animals really do prefer i think that we need to make allowances for them to have that i mean i don't have pets i'm not interested in having pest but if a domesticated dog is happier than a you know that i think that should be their decision and that's something that even is an animal i'm not you know when it comes to animal rights i'm not saying that you know rats have the right to go to Harvard is you were discussing earlier with it with the human rights for rats or whatever but you know like I'm not saying that but I do think that there should be if a creature is able to communicate that then they should have that right yeah so you just cuz it's hilarious i'll mention too that book zuo plus it suggests that humans have an unnatural fear of creatures such as rats and snakes because religious traditions like the Christian Bible have prejudiced us against rats and snake there we Africa with black mamba some things like that you know you're gonna find we have a genuine reason to be afraid of like [ __ ] no but therefore therefore the government has an obligation to carry out public education campaigns to try to reverse the brainwashing the influence of he's real testament so that will all be more accepting of rats and snakes and this is the argument so these are my these are PhD wielding academic leaders of vegan opinion so this is my competition okay I mean and look that will become more realistic once we say we were to eliminate animals for agricultural use and that would reduce the amount of grain say because you were discussing earlier you know with the amount of grain that we need to store and things like that we might be able to kill fewer rats like there are there is that possibility as well but but grain farming I unless I mean yeah yeah I don't know some sort of amazing technology that would prevent rats from unless you're gonna start teleporting rats I mean it's it's pretty tough but sure I still in principle there is there something no but still in print look I tell you the irony is I have looked into but I have locked it looked into nonviolent ways to trap rats on a farm because I was interested in it and I've also talked other farmers about the methods they use there are things you can do to genuinely reduce the number of rats you're killing so I had their eyes they're very technical i won't i won't get into it but you can you can set up certain types of traps that use a tube and the rats go in the tube and then they're putting a bucket and then you can take the bucket and dump it in the forest or whatever you you can do some things uh yeah people talking about that too like colleen patrick-goudreau my dad once tried to remove a skunk you mainly from our house and that the skunk did get let loose humanely but everyone else was kind of sorry couldn't smell it for months after look so coming Kevin made your point about about you know nature and the wilderness and so on um so know what I disagree with I do not think the issue is comfort I do not think the issue is the animals happiness if I have to state it in rights language I very rarely use use the term I'd early release word rights I think the only right animals have is to their own habitat or you could say to their own domain now a penguin you may be able to you're suggesting through scientific testing through you know cognitive measurements what have you that you can tell whether a penguin is happier let's say in a room temperature or swimming pool kind of situation then it would be in Antarctica now that's quite possible and many animals are happier when they're not in their natural habitat because their natural habitat is too cold or too hot or they're there in misery all the time when it's really that cold or what have you there struggling with the cold I nevertheless do not believe we have any mandate as human beings to provide penguins with a warmer swimming pool that make them more comfortable I think on the one hand we have a we have a responsibility which is tremendously difficult to live up to to try to actually preserve their habitat intact you know like not to let you know Antarctica get ruined Canadian Arctic or you know we're talking about polar bears would have you so they actually have but you know a domain to live in everyone have that to live in and then in those situations where we have to rescue them or shelter them we try to approximate their habitat so you've probably seen zoos trying to you know I've used these examples before if there's an oil spill and we have to temporarily housed some penguins for six months well the oil dissipates from the waters they used to live in I would try to give them water just as cold as what they were used to you try to simulate that and you try to give them the same kind of food they would eat in the wild too so no for me the only right they have is to habitat and then the ideal role for human beings is ultimately wildlife management because ultimately we have to tend the boundaries and we have to protect them against exploitation by the human beings this is the ultimate threat to all up all animal life you know in the little bits and pieces of wilderness that are left you know I mean here in China if the government doesn't stop human beings from killing and eating animals than the whole they'll all disappear and they if we also have other humans recording down trees I remember there was a report that's on cbc radio so it may not be true but there was a conservation officer complaining that their number-one expenditure was buying new locks because all the locks they put up on the roads to stop people from going in and illegally logging the types of guys have going in illegally log have shotguns or rifles and they can shoot the locks so now I obviously this may have been an exaggeration I don't know how much yeah bc didn't know these these might be very expensive locks that's what you're forgetting i don't know but anyway he was it was the fact that someone said it on cbc radio doesn't mean it's true but immediately with that you get exactly the image which is you know see you got these conservation officers trying to just lock barriers on the road but if you don't actually have men with guns preventing other men with you know the tools needed to cut down the trees from going cutting the trees and these things disappear so yeah that's that's my view yeah our first obligation is to remove the unnecessary suffering of animals that we impose on them for our own pleasure so I subscribe to kind of a negative utilitarianism then you know no matter how happy something might make one group of people if if it is creating if it's contributing to the suffering of another than it doesn't really you can't you can't justify that so whether people if people are made happy by consuming animals that does not justify the misery and suffering of you know trillions of animals so that's I think that's our first concern not obviously not that we don't need to be eliminating the suffering of wild animals at this point although it is something that does concern me and I would say that I I do believe that if in the future if we have the capacity to remove that suffering that it would be in some ways an obligation depends on the situation I suppose but well you know most of the big bear is we have in canon but you know engaging cannibalism bears eat other bears dogs eat other dogs I don't think it's a human mandate to prevent one dog for meeting another dog or to prevent one bears me but and you can yeah I know this is gonna sound insane but I do think in the future that that will be something that we will have to think about more and I do think it will become more of an obligation i agree with you right now it isn't but well me to me so to me that is the difference between the wilderness in a zoo if you have bears that are in a zoo then you prevent one bear for meeting the other but if bears are in their own domain are in their own habitat then i think though the whole point is that you do you let the Bears sorta for themselves and bears will kill and eat other bears and dogs will kill any other dogs and sometimes the bears eat the dogs and so on you do kind of have nature as a baseline because you're your king that the way things are in nature is the way things ought to be um no I'm saying that that there are limits to human intervention so and ya know yeah that's going to change I think that we are we're rapidly moving towards a different sort of environment I mean again this is why my channels mod vegan it's IM really interested in modern future stuff because i think that that's what veganism is partly about like we're moving towards a future that is not going to be able to be based on that for environmental reasons for all sorts of things but um I do think we're going to have more control over our environment you know in five years we may have autonomous cars everywhere which is crazy I mean when we were kids that was just a pipe dream and obviously it's strange that it's happening so quickly but it is you know I think though part of the errors you know there's another use of the word nature which is the uses in human nature for me part of the point is not to impose on a dog human nature not to impose an A Bear human nature and of course another example is not to impose on a horse human nature so I mean a while the lives of wild horses are so totally different from domesticated horses but I think would be wrong to intervene and impose human social norms on a herd of wild horses that do compete and fight a little bit you know they fight overestimate what have you I mean ethical norms I suppose this week saying any any human norms I wouldn't I'm you know for bears it is normal for them to kill each other payers and it's obviously it's revolting human beings and you know but they have this whole social structure that's built around that and you know that that's bear nature that's not human nature yeah true but of course you know you've got the mother bears that do spend a great deal of their time trying to protect their cubs with their own lives against that sort of thing so you have kind of a it's also a gender and sex problem but I think that even within the bear community that's kind of a but um yeah I do think that we will be thinking about the again with neuroscience and things like that I think we're gonna be able to understand better what what will make bears happy like is an adult male bear gonna be happy as long as he has a food source he may not want to be eating bear cubs you know like there's it may and there may be ways to deal with that and again this is very future I realize it sounds very crazy but it's I think you know 50 years I'll admit that I'll admit that it sounds crazy over does I don't I realized by that but I do think especially with flu I mean the example of bears is a great one because that's a smaller population we have more control over it we do track their populations so that is I wouldn't be surprised within 50 years if that's something we're really seriously considering especially with animals that are more endangered and things like that so well I do think that habitat uh management involves you know keeping track of how much food is available for the different species and making sure species don't go extinct you know locally and then when they do go extinct locally you have to cope by trying to reintroduce missing species we know that goes on that's kind of the normal of national parks already so in that sense I don't think I need to appeal to a future ideal i think that's already what people do naturally I sorry naturally being a poor choice of words that's what governments tend to do bureaucratically without too much lecturing from vegans but I mean in terms of the difference between nature and nurture you know very most people have seen an elephant that as tusks and they've seen an elephant with no tasks very few people ever looked at photographs of what cutting off a live elephant tusk is like eyes are your wincing I don't know if you it's really horrifying have you okay okay but as mentioned like our own like our own teeth you know there's there's red living tissue going throughout the length of it and you know it's obviously it's saturated with blood and I've it is a living part of the animal so I mean the things that are taken for granted whether it's the castration of a dog or you know right you can documentaries and things like that now well let's say whether it's whether it's taking the taking the testicles off a bowl or taking the testicles of a dog or taking the tusks of an elephant you know the the changes were making to animals physically and behaviorally and mentally are pretty extreme a friend of mine read a study I never read it about the difference in intelligence and behavior between domesticated yaks and wild yaks now today we have no example of a wild cow the Oryx is the wild ancestor of the cow that really lived in the forest so again to me this is not ideal izing nature to say well we can look at a wild yak and we can look at a yak that's you know domesticated and it's in many ways 'verily they've actually lost their intelligence in some quantifiable way and I don't know maybe you can look at faro Lee acts and see if they manage to recover with a few generations that Adele uh but yeah like cows any any domesticated animal we have now I mean they're there many many orders of magnitude larger than they would have been in in the wild you know you've got you've got cows that can no longer even breed naturally then that's something that's only happened within the last 50 years or so we do both those teams we also breed animals that are much smaller than there will be the one we do it all yeah and that's going to be a challenge in the future like what do we do do we manipulate them to go back to their original DNA structure like because those things lik with crisper we can edit DNA we could say oh you know we're gonna so that's about it oh no Berta you guys know you well you know that that's that's happened to some extent with the the bison bison you'll always see confusing reports about how extinct bison are and it's because it has to do with how you define bison if you define bison as having zero percent cow DNA you know zero percent European cow intermixture as ever call there is one island in Alberta it's an island in a river which is the last place where you have some pure bred bison and the reason being that the the vast majority of bison were infected with tuberculosis and still are so it's actually been part of a human struggle to eliminate tuberculosis has involved the final stages eliminate the bison burger people very people know that although it's not it's not hard time yeah so you know now different people have attempted to make pseudo bison by taking different cross breeds of bison and cattle and choosing the ones that have the traits that resemble tizen but that have the resistance tuberculosis or at least that don't have tuberculosis or whatever it is so humans have played some bizarre games of that kind already um yeah I can only be excused as wanting to preserve the variety of nature it's not that bison are asking for this like they're not saying that they want you know to sure to have their lineage revived but well I think I think that's right i think that's both the tragedy in the triumph the 21st century's that we move into a period where increasingly we relate to nature not at something wild but as a museum as a museum exhibit and why do you work Dodos and things like that passenger pigeons we have that capacity in almost sure to be able to do that but again its your right like it are we just going to create a living zoo that's a very important moral and ethical question you know i mean you know I I can say you know there's a sense in which wouldn't it be nice if your children can see what a real bison looks like I'm not such a jerk to say no this is something inherently evil you know or any of the species that are currently endangered around the world I that that quest to try to preserve things at least in a museum capacity I can relate to I mean in Canada were spoiled in some ways you know I just did a book review of that book half earth many of these smaller and poorer countries there's no way i could say to the Government of Laos fifty percent of your country should be a should be a national park Canada we have so much empty land that for all these ridiculous ideas and more they're viable the stomachs that we do have space for bison herds if we if if we want it if we want to make it happen yeah actually is a biologist thing obvious and um one of the challenges that they always faced with these international agreements about climate change and things like that is that because that you know and it's a tragedy he'll always think you know he wants to preserve the Amazon more than anybody but but it is always that challenge like how do you balance human needs and and the need for diversity and it's it's very challenging I do think that eliminating animal agriculture does help that a lot because you know we're gonna still be cutting down for us for palm oil but at least we won't be wasting you know half the Amazon for cattle future I I have a question for you but I've an anecdote about this that I think you'll relate to and they don't then I'll ask my question view I was going to ask you about what utilitarian means to you it seems to be meaningful to you person so I asked that right after Tillis Antone um back when I work at Starbucks so I have worked in a grocery store I have worked in a Starbucks some people think I grew up as a millionaire I did not um but I but I'll die a millionaire I guarantee unlikely uh um but back when I was working at Starbucks there was a young woman and actually being clueless she was romantically interested in me and very briefly romantically involved with me actually but in with this well we were both young I'm anyway sorry she wasn't sure have been six months younger than I was we were the same age and we're both young people time and um she was really excited one day and she was telling me about this service she was gonna sign up for it to save the rainforest and she said only a few words about it but I was already then a political realist than into my I guess I wasn't yet a political science major ash I had I had we hadn't even got at that point university but I heard her give her feel about this wonderful charity she was sent him to join and I said well just from what you told me now cuz she was almost verbatim repeating what she read in the advertisement sent in our application package I said you know I've got to warn you they're probably gonna write back to you asking do you have weapons training do you have a good pair of combat boots are you familiar the type of work she's describing she was using all of these euphemisms but if you actually understood euphemisms this was a paramilitary service trying to prevent illegal logging and poaching and dealing with armed men who were cutting in the forest i think it was in Colombia I could be misremembering i think it was inclined right because i remember when i was doing my undergraduate wait one sec let me finish the antidote wait wait wait let me finish because there's only one more sense well over sense so the and you know I told us and she completely didn't believe me completely dismissed I'd say and then maybe two or three weeks later on the job I asked her saying we're working at starbucks said here oh so you know did you did you get your reply from that service she was so downcast she's looking down the table she didn't want to look for you in the eye and she said you were right you're right a bit of it that that was exactly what I bonus yen