Drama, Debate, Ambition, Activism: Why Vegans Fight Vegans.
09 September 2016 [link youtube]
Every possible trigger-warning applies to this video: sex, violence, defecation, etc. You may think I'm joking, but I'm not.
Youtube Automatic Transcription
although it's true that any particular
conflict or debate may be meaningless it's just as true to say that any particular call for unity or cooperation between two conflicting sides may also be meaningless misguided pointless hopeless why do we fight why are there so many conflicts of vegans against other vegans I approach this in a very different way for most of the people on YouTube and I think that many people have lost sight of the fundamentals of the situation where now be in you'll find reflections those fundamentals right up front near the top of my abandoned blog myblog called vegan mind tricks there's an entry there that's titled something like veganism fractious and fragmentary I view this as a movement with tremendous internal diversity with very deep rifts within itself and with deep and meaningful disagreements at the core about questions such as what does the word veganism mean we get into questions of effect of activism but what any of us are actually going to do to try to bring the principles of veganism into effect in this world then of course it gets even more fractures of fragmentary but I do not start from a misconception that many of you have out there that the purpose of us lending our voices to the airwaves is for all of us to just get along is it's quite false to start off with the assumption that the natural situation for vegans as human beings is to be in solidarity unison and unity and that the disagreements between us have merely come about by some misunderstanding by some inclement happenstance not the case at all the disagreements between us may in many cases be based on a real understanding not misunderstanding not a misunderstanding at all I think there are basically two categories for why we fight for why we have these internal conflicts one is debate come back to number one in a minute I think people lose sight of why debate matters why it's really a positive and vital thing and number two is ambition the ambition to do something positive and I'm not going to create a third category I don't think there is a valid third category but right now I think what many people would see a third category is so-called drama drama for the sake of drama scandal for the sake of scandal I'll come back to all three of these things first off why do I say the ambition to do something positive wouldn't it be better if i said something like activism well activism has much more narrow connotations in most people's minds when i say do something positive it may be something as simple as writing a children's book writing and illustrating a children's book about veganism and it may be something as specific to your town to your location as challenging the local school board on the curriculum that gets caught taught in schools a friend of mine who i met here on youtube i'll leave anonymous for this video a friend of mine mentioned to me her horror what she discovered that her kids in school were being delivered propaganda written by the egg industry I've read about other instances in Australia of the dairy industry really having pro industry propaganda being delivered to schools now I find that very deeply disturbing for many reasons partly because I'm a vegan but partly just because I believe in democracy transparent today accountability I believe in you no question of you know public education really serving public goals and I'm deeply disturbed by the role that you know Catholic propaganda can play in schools if you allow the Catholic Church to decide what's taught in schools I think that's a tremendous ethical quandary public conflict of interest worth having and likewise for those same reasons we're fundamentally we have to question democratically who decides what's taught to children who determines the message it's delivered in the classroom and it should not be something bought and sold to the highest bidder I neither want the egg industry to do that nor the dairy industry nor any other industry I don't think that any private interest should be able to determine that neither a church nor an industry but with that aside of course teaching children that eggs are healthy and natural and normal and necessary for them to eat course is a vegan that's that's a message that may be especially disturbing to me but if it's the egg industry why not the beer industry or anyone else for that matter in any case taking on a challenge like that taking on the local school board taking on whichever body decide little curriculum that even that may not match the notion you have of activism in your mind and of course writing a story book may not either but the ambition to do something positive you know whether it's in the arts or in politics or any other form of organizing human beings that kind of ambition it alien ates people and it separates people normally into small groups that really can cooperate in pursuit of that ambition as a common perception that artists are very difficult people to get along with and I think that perception is mostly shaped by this issue of ambition and people who are not artists really failing to understand what the ambition is how it operates how it separates people and also unites people into small groups that really cooperate in pursuit of that goal if you don't share my ambition if I'm organizing a concert concert talking about the arts here but in some ways the type of human cooperation involve closely resembles politics but I'm organizing a concert I'm looking around I'm working with people I'm looking at everybody on that project and it's like look do you share my vision for this project or not if not get out I can't have you here I can't have you at this meeting I can't have you as part of this project only the people who share and support that ambition may be very short-term maybe six months we all have to work together really hard in a focused way I need a group of people who share this vision for this concert who share this ambition and that's it either you're in or you're out doesn't mean you're my enemy not the same as being a political enemy but either you share that ambition you don't back what I was involved with organizing Buddhist studies or organizing Buddhism I can remember having meetings with people who other people were involved in that and we were organizing some things that were like you know public lectures academic lectures related to Buddhist philosophy or POTUS history or what have you and some of the other things were even closer to real politics where we were lobbying to influence it's not even worth describing this video we were lobbying for lobbying the influence decisions leave it at that um but you know have a meeting some of the people traveled an hour to attend that meeting Toronto is a big spread out city some people came a long way to attend that meeting to make those decisions to discuss those factors you know if there's one person at the meeting who doesn't share your ambitions for what that groups trying to accomplish was trying to do it totally disrupts the meeting and they've just got to get out and it's not this is why I have this in a separate category category one was debate but when you're working in pursuit of that kind of ambition to do something positive when you're getting organized it's not a debating club anymore remember one meeting like that and there was a young woman who was invited by one of the other organizers on the poor people who really worked and you know she wasn't even Buddhist she was Chinese she was not a member of the Buddhist religion anyway she'd no interest as she kept disrupting the meeting like during the meeting some of the sound okay so we're going to have this lecture we're going to bring in the speaker to the University we're going to set this up and you know there would be donations Buddhism is religion Orthodox ancient Buddhism it's all built on people giving donations which is partly morally significant because one of the alternatives detected to donations is taxation in Christianity you know you have tithing but anyway so this is not tithing fuels not taxing people's not charging an admission fee but it's allowing donations to be voluntary and you know this young woman was disrupting the meeting saying she was morally opposed to taking donations and we're since then look I'm sorry I don't know how much you study Buddhism but it's actually one of the founding principles of the religion is that donations are a good thing and we're not going to debate it now we can't stop this meeting we can't disrupt what we're doing and a you know we really have limited time and energy and we're all focused on this vision whether it's a creative vision or a political vision you know you know ultimately either you're part of this meeting where you got to get out but like you know I remember she revealed some point that she wasn't even a Buddha so she shouldn't have been in that meeting at all what was ridiculous I don't know why she wasn't going to be there debate is one thing what you do as a group in pursuit of a shared ambition is really another and that meeting was not a debating Club we were not there to debate Buddhist philosophy or Buddhist economics or the history of Buddhism or the significance of donations as opposed to charging admission Thor those are interesting debates that have they really are but again i'm not using the word activism because it's a little bit more narrow but you have to recognize that you have to recognize what it is for a group of people to really work to work hard to sacrifice their time and their money but it's that time is the most precious part of all in pursuit of an ambition and I mean to stereotype slightly I do especially often see people a part of the fruit movement the fruitarian movement food movement and I think they really do not understand that issue of ambition that i'm not on youtube just to be happy even though i am here to make friends i am here to make colleagues and connections and find people i can cooperate with in pursuit of any number of ambitions this is not a mutual appreciation club and this is not just a venue for me to come on and show you how much I'm enjoying my life or to encourage you to enjoy your life what that's like again whether it's in the arts or maybe in theory in the sciences I don't know I don't know missionaries with pure sciences or in politics to say look we have a group of people whether it's five people or 50 people whether it's organizing a concert or a lecture or an exhibition for the Arts or a theater program or you know it's not an easy Democratic to recognize that when you're putting together a crew of people in pursuit of an ambition what you're doing is by very its very definition its exclusive because you're just looking for the group of people who share that ambition and if we're going to work hard to make it happen and you can refer back actually there were some reflections on that I'm a conversation with American unicorn my long podcast with her but she was trying to get some vegan events going some vegan things going and her struggle to find even a few other people who shared that vision and shared those ambitions okay now debate point one of my two pointless I think the people forget about the real meaning of the word debate and this category of drama has distracted us from it even further in debate motives matter it really does matter if I'm just trying to be clever for the sake of being clever or if I'm just trying to get attention of the circuit attention or if the debate has real outcomes has real consequences for me if it's about something I really care about I realize that may seem like an overly emotional criterion to bring to the question of debate but yes the question of why are we having this debate what do I have invested in it that really does matter there are many people I think they've never seen the videos there are many people who have the false assumption that my disagreement with a natural vegan was just about personality or getting attention any views know if you watch any of the videos dealing with the domestication of animals any of the videos about dogs and cats etc it should be very clear to you I really care about that issue to me that's really worth debating and the justification for why I had the debate at all is exactly my sincerity engaging with the issue and I'm totally satisfied with the fact that although it took a great deal of time and effort at length when it was all done when all those videos were made I did get to see the transformation of the world view of quite a few people who watched those videos and who wrote in to me saying they just never thought about it before they never thought about it from my perspective before and they now realize wow this is actually a tremendously important issue at the heart of veganism and has implications for everything it has implications for how we live our lives how we view the world how we're getting organized as activists and for me that's a tremendously positive thing that had that debate even though first I was debating with really didn't cooperate so it was almost totally a monologue but you know it's a debate where I know very well the other side's view because of course the other side is the majority the vast majority of vegans uncritically support pet owner chip uncritically make excuses for castrating dogs and even uncritically make excuses for killing a cow in order to feed it to a cat in the form of cat food I'm aware it's the majority position but for me speaking as minority that debate is justified not by personal vendetta not by seeking drama it's justified by my motives by my sincerity the fact that I really do care about those issues whether or not I actually have anything intelligent to say you can decide for yourself but my motivations in that that you can disagree with me but my motivations in that should be clear so we have to stop thinking of debate as something that detracts from veganism the reality is that this is one of the most fractious and fragmentary internally divided movements the world because we do not even agree on what veganism is on why it matters on why we became vegan let alone how we propose to propound this to the rest of the world as I've said so many times any type if you ever want to humble yourself with the progress of the vegan movement think about what percentage of the world's population we've managed to convince to stop wearing leather shoes incredibly small percentage of people will refuse to wear leather shoes how do you want to get up that hill it's a matter of real debate I think anyone who has sincere motives should get involved in exactly that way now with that haven't been said once you move past that debating phase which we do a lot of here on YouTube which is wonderful and positive to actually trying to make something positive happen like you actually want to put together a poster campaign and advertising campaign addressing leather shoes then the debates are over just for that group maybe five people maybe 50 people so okay we're going to get organized we're going to put in some time and effort and a little bit of money ultimately go to print the posters maybe everyone throws in ten dollars however much it cost maybe you're going to work with a professional illustrator and that's going to cause some more money okay you're going to do an advertising campaign related leather shoes now we're working in pursuit of an ambition to do something positive you can call it activism doesn't matter as soon as we're guided by that ambition the debates are over and simply you got to look at the people sitting at that table and say either you're in or you're out because that's not the table where you have those debates terms of the third category drama people are forgetting the meaning of the word scandal they're forgetting what a real scandal is seeing people trying to make a scandal out of the fact that one vegan sent another vegan a text message saying that she's cute you know saying she's attractive it's not a scandal all right stop trying to make scandals out of totally normal human relations I'm interested in seeing these connections between people this network these relations between colleagues and Friends expand and deepen and blossom over the next five years because I want to see something really positive happened something really positive come out of it can be myriad foundations it may be myriad micro projects publishing books taking a case to the local Board of Education putting up posters about leather shoes it may be or you know it may be one big foundation more like pettah or what have you it may be some big project some small ones it's not for me to say but you know human beings want to be loved and for every one relationship that results in a marriage or even just a loving boyfriend girlfriend relationship people are going to have hundreds and hundreds short interactions that may start with one person sending another text message saying hey you're cute do you want to meet for coffee and it actually is really destructive and negative to see that kind of behavior vilified and turned into a scandal and it's going to stop people from making friends it's going to stop you before having real romance than it's going to stop people from attempting to have romances that just turn out to be nothing I don't know what person ninety percent ninety-five percent of flirtations like that or people meeting for coffee be four coffee decide you're not interested in show that romantically maybe become friends maybe become colleagues maybe you continue cooperating the vegan movement maybe nothing comes from it for those of you who are taking a shot of vodka every time I mention Laos or Cambodia get your bottles ready now when i was living in laos there was a real scandal there was a real scandal reportedly involving two israeli guys who in a hotel room peed a prostitute to spend time with them and when they left the hotel room this prostitute was tied to the bed I believed her you know her ankles and her wrists were tied to the bed and they had defecated on her in plain English they had left a pile of poo on her and then they just left the hotel room with her stranded there on the bed until the cleaning staff you know until the hotel staff came and opened the door and discovered this woman tied to the bed now this was a real scandal and it shocked the whole city and there was a big reaction to it comes to in just a moment and the sense of horror and moral outrage was made much worse by the fact that this woman could not scream for help she was a deaf mute as we would say and at that time she was very well known I didn't frequent any of the bars she would prove I didn't know anything about her but when the scandal broke many people said oh yes they knew exactly who she was because she was somewhat famous for being death but for being one of these very hardworking deaf people who learned how to read lips and who could really communicate to an amazing extent despite being born deaf and she was a prostitute and so many people in the town knew her apparently because of the way she would socialize at the different bars and nightclubs I never went to any of those places so I didn't know I learned about this as a as a story after the fact now that was a real scandal and that really shocked people and I first heard about it because I noticed a whole bunch of hotel owners put up signs in their hotels saying no Israelis loud so they they respond to this by banning all Israelis because they had the idea the prejudicial idea but based in the shocking experience that there were all these Israeli guys who had just finished their military service and who were on vacation and who were carrying on in this in this odious manner I could say more ok that's a scandal if something like that happened in the vegan community it would be a real scandal and we should talk about it absolutely but I was starting to a friend of mine who is a vegan on YouTube and who was interested in making a positive into the wrong and he was basically saying that he was now afraid to or he he was saying he was deciding not to flirt with or hit on or strike up conversation with or approach you know women within veganism that he was never going to communicate by text message and swag and initiating relationships because of the current climate of fear and hostility impacts over trivialities over nothing over nonsense over one person telling another person they're cute and saying they wanted me for coffee and he was very surprised my response as I said no it's actually really important for you me usually we know you've gotta love people you've still got to have that love in your heart you still got to initiate relationships shallow relationships friendships love whatever the whole range because you don't know when you start what you don't know what it's going to be you know it's going to time I said no you should not be ashamed of this you should not be afraid of this you should be you know initiating relationships with whatever the opposite sex the same sex whatever you're into um no shade you know just whatever you're into um this is a chilling effect on the whole movement that's really negative really regrettable and really stunts our growth as people as individuals and will stunt the growth of the network as a whole again I think I think you know people want to be loved I think people want to be known I think people want to have meaningful relationships some people want to have meaningless relationships also that's okay but the idea that you would silence yourself censor yourself in that most personal and intimate of aspects of your life that you wouldn't ask someone out for coffee that's really very scary to me that's very different from censoring yourself in writing a newspaper article are you making a public declaration of that kind of making a speech on the radio or something that's a form of censorship that goes right into the bedrooms of the nation if you don't mind my using a hackneyed phrase and I told this guy in this conversation told me anecdote I just thought I said look you've forgotten the meaning of the word scandal and I told him with a scandal in Laos with a deaf woman who was you know humiliated and victimizes ways look that's a scandal that if I find out that you have been asking vegan women to go out to coffee with you to go on a date with you or something it's not a scandal and I'm never going to shame you for that I'm never going to make you feel ashamed for that never going to insult you for that or denigrate you for that and if you go for coffee with them and the relationship works out that's great and how if you doesn't work out it's fine too it's not a scandal if I find out you went out with this particular woman and you went to a hotel and you left her handcuffed to the bed with a pile of poo to be discovered by the cleaning staff that is a scandal and then I would be furious with you and then I would have questions for you and I would say why the hell did you do this you know to whatever to this other activists I know this other person I know whatever it is okay my point is not that nothing is scandalous some things are scandalous and those are the things that you would address with real concern even if you were just dealing with a personal friend and that of course you would deal with real concern if you were dealing with someone in position of real political power of real political leadership check your head a little bit right now in veganism does anyone have real political power is anyone in a position of real political leadership the answer may be no it may be nobody is in that position or maybe one or two people who never get involved with the digital vegan demi-monde here on youtube at all there are little bits and pieces of political power scattered around but compared even to the type of political power that exists within tera vaada Buddhism nothing's at that scale yet but still sadly you see the type of disgraceful behavior that's inspired by just money and fame without power even coming into the equation yet but yes it is coming it is there in the future for us to worry about there are questions of accountability and abusive power doesn't hurt thinking about them now so look guys I that's about it that's all I had to say in this video I am on YouTube to make friends and friendship as I've said before is unequal I have real ambitions and I'm honest and open about those ambitions and if you were to look at who do I interview who I talked to on this channel the main question is do these people share some of those ambitions with me or do they have the potential to work towards those ambitions with me and in some cases I'm delighted when I find that the answer is yes I think someone like vegan gains really does have the potential to make a very positive impact very positive ends in the world in Canada is a Canadian citizen many of you might not have guessed that you can listen to the podcast I did with them what have you many of you I think assumed that the light twins didn't have a political bone in their body the interview that's like two ends did with me for many many people those the first time they heard the light twins talk about politics talk about their political envisions and again that's in Canada so you know they have that potential and they have that desire so sometimes you know people surprise you sometimes even if you don't initiate that contact with that person that colleague for that reason you find out afterwards either that there are people who are so dissatisfied with the status quo that they want to change the world for that reason or that they have some particular goal some particular project some particular ambition in mind they have a very general ambition of mine when vegan gains said in my conversation them that he wants to see fur become illegal it was he furrow Balash she wants to see factory farming disappear I very rarely think in terms that broad but of course you know I feeling you know I feel I'd sympathize totally with those ambitions but I tend to think much more in that precise sense of how do I stop the Board of Education from including propaganda material provided by the AG industry provided by the dairy industry how do I build a foundation where I can raise enough money to employ a lawyer who can pursue that goal with me so that I'm not giving depositions alone when I approached the provincial government because I want to deal with education policy and a real question democratic accountability and for how those propaganda messages get into the school board set Earth's I think in this much more precise and focused way for better and for worse you know certainly there's room for visionaries this room for people with that much broader view of wanting to just see factory farming stop going to see fur industry stop going to see a vegan world or a vegan majority or vegan 5% getting to 5% vegans would be a huge accomplishment for planet Earth debate is a legitimate positive part of that process and in the pursuit of those ambitions we do engage in exclusive behavior exclusionary behavior say because we try to put together groups of people who can really work in in a close-knit circle just in pursuit of that one ambition whether it's publishing that one book putting on that one post that one concert putting together that poster campaign etc etc etc so those are behaviors that some people regard as negative but they're really positive and on the other hand this third category drama and scandal mongering I think that is really negative it's really / Nicias and it has impacts for how we operate politically and how we live our lives personally that are far-reaching and insidious and for those of you who perceive it as positive or perceive it as just entertainment I'm going to have to ask you to just sympathize to empathize to imagine how different the world would look if you were sitting where I'm sitting as someone who has very limited ability to bring about social change on planet earth but as someone who has enormous ambition to bring about that change as someone who was getting on the telephone every day skype of course not the real telephone but someone who's getting on telephone every day and talking to other vegans who share those ambitions who want to make the world a better place but who don't know how and who don't feel confident that they can do it we're trying to build up the confidence and the capacity to take on Parliament to take on City Hall and instead what we're getting distracted with is people stabbing each other in the back over [ __ ]
conflict or debate may be meaningless it's just as true to say that any particular call for unity or cooperation between two conflicting sides may also be meaningless misguided pointless hopeless why do we fight why are there so many conflicts of vegans against other vegans I approach this in a very different way for most of the people on YouTube and I think that many people have lost sight of the fundamentals of the situation where now be in you'll find reflections those fundamentals right up front near the top of my abandoned blog myblog called vegan mind tricks there's an entry there that's titled something like veganism fractious and fragmentary I view this as a movement with tremendous internal diversity with very deep rifts within itself and with deep and meaningful disagreements at the core about questions such as what does the word veganism mean we get into questions of effect of activism but what any of us are actually going to do to try to bring the principles of veganism into effect in this world then of course it gets even more fractures of fragmentary but I do not start from a misconception that many of you have out there that the purpose of us lending our voices to the airwaves is for all of us to just get along is it's quite false to start off with the assumption that the natural situation for vegans as human beings is to be in solidarity unison and unity and that the disagreements between us have merely come about by some misunderstanding by some inclement happenstance not the case at all the disagreements between us may in many cases be based on a real understanding not misunderstanding not a misunderstanding at all I think there are basically two categories for why we fight for why we have these internal conflicts one is debate come back to number one in a minute I think people lose sight of why debate matters why it's really a positive and vital thing and number two is ambition the ambition to do something positive and I'm not going to create a third category I don't think there is a valid third category but right now I think what many people would see a third category is so-called drama drama for the sake of drama scandal for the sake of scandal I'll come back to all three of these things first off why do I say the ambition to do something positive wouldn't it be better if i said something like activism well activism has much more narrow connotations in most people's minds when i say do something positive it may be something as simple as writing a children's book writing and illustrating a children's book about veganism and it may be something as specific to your town to your location as challenging the local school board on the curriculum that gets caught taught in schools a friend of mine who i met here on youtube i'll leave anonymous for this video a friend of mine mentioned to me her horror what she discovered that her kids in school were being delivered propaganda written by the egg industry I've read about other instances in Australia of the dairy industry really having pro industry propaganda being delivered to schools now I find that very deeply disturbing for many reasons partly because I'm a vegan but partly just because I believe in democracy transparent today accountability I believe in you no question of you know public education really serving public goals and I'm deeply disturbed by the role that you know Catholic propaganda can play in schools if you allow the Catholic Church to decide what's taught in schools I think that's a tremendous ethical quandary public conflict of interest worth having and likewise for those same reasons we're fundamentally we have to question democratically who decides what's taught to children who determines the message it's delivered in the classroom and it should not be something bought and sold to the highest bidder I neither want the egg industry to do that nor the dairy industry nor any other industry I don't think that any private interest should be able to determine that neither a church nor an industry but with that aside of course teaching children that eggs are healthy and natural and normal and necessary for them to eat course is a vegan that's that's a message that may be especially disturbing to me but if it's the egg industry why not the beer industry or anyone else for that matter in any case taking on a challenge like that taking on the local school board taking on whichever body decide little curriculum that even that may not match the notion you have of activism in your mind and of course writing a story book may not either but the ambition to do something positive you know whether it's in the arts or in politics or any other form of organizing human beings that kind of ambition it alien ates people and it separates people normally into small groups that really can cooperate in pursuit of that ambition as a common perception that artists are very difficult people to get along with and I think that perception is mostly shaped by this issue of ambition and people who are not artists really failing to understand what the ambition is how it operates how it separates people and also unites people into small groups that really cooperate in pursuit of that goal if you don't share my ambition if I'm organizing a concert concert talking about the arts here but in some ways the type of human cooperation involve closely resembles politics but I'm organizing a concert I'm looking around I'm working with people I'm looking at everybody on that project and it's like look do you share my vision for this project or not if not get out I can't have you here I can't have you at this meeting I can't have you as part of this project only the people who share and support that ambition may be very short-term maybe six months we all have to work together really hard in a focused way I need a group of people who share this vision for this concert who share this ambition and that's it either you're in or you're out doesn't mean you're my enemy not the same as being a political enemy but either you share that ambition you don't back what I was involved with organizing Buddhist studies or organizing Buddhism I can remember having meetings with people who other people were involved in that and we were organizing some things that were like you know public lectures academic lectures related to Buddhist philosophy or POTUS history or what have you and some of the other things were even closer to real politics where we were lobbying to influence it's not even worth describing this video we were lobbying for lobbying the influence decisions leave it at that um but you know have a meeting some of the people traveled an hour to attend that meeting Toronto is a big spread out city some people came a long way to attend that meeting to make those decisions to discuss those factors you know if there's one person at the meeting who doesn't share your ambitions for what that groups trying to accomplish was trying to do it totally disrupts the meeting and they've just got to get out and it's not this is why I have this in a separate category category one was debate but when you're working in pursuit of that kind of ambition to do something positive when you're getting organized it's not a debating club anymore remember one meeting like that and there was a young woman who was invited by one of the other organizers on the poor people who really worked and you know she wasn't even Buddhist she was Chinese she was not a member of the Buddhist religion anyway she'd no interest as she kept disrupting the meeting like during the meeting some of the sound okay so we're going to have this lecture we're going to bring in the speaker to the University we're going to set this up and you know there would be donations Buddhism is religion Orthodox ancient Buddhism it's all built on people giving donations which is partly morally significant because one of the alternatives detected to donations is taxation in Christianity you know you have tithing but anyway so this is not tithing fuels not taxing people's not charging an admission fee but it's allowing donations to be voluntary and you know this young woman was disrupting the meeting saying she was morally opposed to taking donations and we're since then look I'm sorry I don't know how much you study Buddhism but it's actually one of the founding principles of the religion is that donations are a good thing and we're not going to debate it now we can't stop this meeting we can't disrupt what we're doing and a you know we really have limited time and energy and we're all focused on this vision whether it's a creative vision or a political vision you know you know ultimately either you're part of this meeting where you got to get out but like you know I remember she revealed some point that she wasn't even a Buddha so she shouldn't have been in that meeting at all what was ridiculous I don't know why she wasn't going to be there debate is one thing what you do as a group in pursuit of a shared ambition is really another and that meeting was not a debating Club we were not there to debate Buddhist philosophy or Buddhist economics or the history of Buddhism or the significance of donations as opposed to charging admission Thor those are interesting debates that have they really are but again i'm not using the word activism because it's a little bit more narrow but you have to recognize that you have to recognize what it is for a group of people to really work to work hard to sacrifice their time and their money but it's that time is the most precious part of all in pursuit of an ambition and I mean to stereotype slightly I do especially often see people a part of the fruit movement the fruitarian movement food movement and I think they really do not understand that issue of ambition that i'm not on youtube just to be happy even though i am here to make friends i am here to make colleagues and connections and find people i can cooperate with in pursuit of any number of ambitions this is not a mutual appreciation club and this is not just a venue for me to come on and show you how much I'm enjoying my life or to encourage you to enjoy your life what that's like again whether it's in the arts or maybe in theory in the sciences I don't know I don't know missionaries with pure sciences or in politics to say look we have a group of people whether it's five people or 50 people whether it's organizing a concert or a lecture or an exhibition for the Arts or a theater program or you know it's not an easy Democratic to recognize that when you're putting together a crew of people in pursuit of an ambition what you're doing is by very its very definition its exclusive because you're just looking for the group of people who share that ambition and if we're going to work hard to make it happen and you can refer back actually there were some reflections on that I'm a conversation with American unicorn my long podcast with her but she was trying to get some vegan events going some vegan things going and her struggle to find even a few other people who shared that vision and shared those ambitions okay now debate point one of my two pointless I think the people forget about the real meaning of the word debate and this category of drama has distracted us from it even further in debate motives matter it really does matter if I'm just trying to be clever for the sake of being clever or if I'm just trying to get attention of the circuit attention or if the debate has real outcomes has real consequences for me if it's about something I really care about I realize that may seem like an overly emotional criterion to bring to the question of debate but yes the question of why are we having this debate what do I have invested in it that really does matter there are many people I think they've never seen the videos there are many people who have the false assumption that my disagreement with a natural vegan was just about personality or getting attention any views know if you watch any of the videos dealing with the domestication of animals any of the videos about dogs and cats etc it should be very clear to you I really care about that issue to me that's really worth debating and the justification for why I had the debate at all is exactly my sincerity engaging with the issue and I'm totally satisfied with the fact that although it took a great deal of time and effort at length when it was all done when all those videos were made I did get to see the transformation of the world view of quite a few people who watched those videos and who wrote in to me saying they just never thought about it before they never thought about it from my perspective before and they now realize wow this is actually a tremendously important issue at the heart of veganism and has implications for everything it has implications for how we live our lives how we view the world how we're getting organized as activists and for me that's a tremendously positive thing that had that debate even though first I was debating with really didn't cooperate so it was almost totally a monologue but you know it's a debate where I know very well the other side's view because of course the other side is the majority the vast majority of vegans uncritically support pet owner chip uncritically make excuses for castrating dogs and even uncritically make excuses for killing a cow in order to feed it to a cat in the form of cat food I'm aware it's the majority position but for me speaking as minority that debate is justified not by personal vendetta not by seeking drama it's justified by my motives by my sincerity the fact that I really do care about those issues whether or not I actually have anything intelligent to say you can decide for yourself but my motivations in that that you can disagree with me but my motivations in that should be clear so we have to stop thinking of debate as something that detracts from veganism the reality is that this is one of the most fractious and fragmentary internally divided movements the world because we do not even agree on what veganism is on why it matters on why we became vegan let alone how we propose to propound this to the rest of the world as I've said so many times any type if you ever want to humble yourself with the progress of the vegan movement think about what percentage of the world's population we've managed to convince to stop wearing leather shoes incredibly small percentage of people will refuse to wear leather shoes how do you want to get up that hill it's a matter of real debate I think anyone who has sincere motives should get involved in exactly that way now with that haven't been said once you move past that debating phase which we do a lot of here on YouTube which is wonderful and positive to actually trying to make something positive happen like you actually want to put together a poster campaign and advertising campaign addressing leather shoes then the debates are over just for that group maybe five people maybe 50 people so okay we're going to get organized we're going to put in some time and effort and a little bit of money ultimately go to print the posters maybe everyone throws in ten dollars however much it cost maybe you're going to work with a professional illustrator and that's going to cause some more money okay you're going to do an advertising campaign related leather shoes now we're working in pursuit of an ambition to do something positive you can call it activism doesn't matter as soon as we're guided by that ambition the debates are over and simply you got to look at the people sitting at that table and say either you're in or you're out because that's not the table where you have those debates terms of the third category drama people are forgetting the meaning of the word scandal they're forgetting what a real scandal is seeing people trying to make a scandal out of the fact that one vegan sent another vegan a text message saying that she's cute you know saying she's attractive it's not a scandal all right stop trying to make scandals out of totally normal human relations I'm interested in seeing these connections between people this network these relations between colleagues and Friends expand and deepen and blossom over the next five years because I want to see something really positive happened something really positive come out of it can be myriad foundations it may be myriad micro projects publishing books taking a case to the local Board of Education putting up posters about leather shoes it may be or you know it may be one big foundation more like pettah or what have you it may be some big project some small ones it's not for me to say but you know human beings want to be loved and for every one relationship that results in a marriage or even just a loving boyfriend girlfriend relationship people are going to have hundreds and hundreds short interactions that may start with one person sending another text message saying hey you're cute do you want to meet for coffee and it actually is really destructive and negative to see that kind of behavior vilified and turned into a scandal and it's going to stop people from making friends it's going to stop you before having real romance than it's going to stop people from attempting to have romances that just turn out to be nothing I don't know what person ninety percent ninety-five percent of flirtations like that or people meeting for coffee be four coffee decide you're not interested in show that romantically maybe become friends maybe become colleagues maybe you continue cooperating the vegan movement maybe nothing comes from it for those of you who are taking a shot of vodka every time I mention Laos or Cambodia get your bottles ready now when i was living in laos there was a real scandal there was a real scandal reportedly involving two israeli guys who in a hotel room peed a prostitute to spend time with them and when they left the hotel room this prostitute was tied to the bed I believed her you know her ankles and her wrists were tied to the bed and they had defecated on her in plain English they had left a pile of poo on her and then they just left the hotel room with her stranded there on the bed until the cleaning staff you know until the hotel staff came and opened the door and discovered this woman tied to the bed now this was a real scandal and it shocked the whole city and there was a big reaction to it comes to in just a moment and the sense of horror and moral outrage was made much worse by the fact that this woman could not scream for help she was a deaf mute as we would say and at that time she was very well known I didn't frequent any of the bars she would prove I didn't know anything about her but when the scandal broke many people said oh yes they knew exactly who she was because she was somewhat famous for being death but for being one of these very hardworking deaf people who learned how to read lips and who could really communicate to an amazing extent despite being born deaf and she was a prostitute and so many people in the town knew her apparently because of the way she would socialize at the different bars and nightclubs I never went to any of those places so I didn't know I learned about this as a as a story after the fact now that was a real scandal and that really shocked people and I first heard about it because I noticed a whole bunch of hotel owners put up signs in their hotels saying no Israelis loud so they they respond to this by banning all Israelis because they had the idea the prejudicial idea but based in the shocking experience that there were all these Israeli guys who had just finished their military service and who were on vacation and who were carrying on in this in this odious manner I could say more ok that's a scandal if something like that happened in the vegan community it would be a real scandal and we should talk about it absolutely but I was starting to a friend of mine who is a vegan on YouTube and who was interested in making a positive into the wrong and he was basically saying that he was now afraid to or he he was saying he was deciding not to flirt with or hit on or strike up conversation with or approach you know women within veganism that he was never going to communicate by text message and swag and initiating relationships because of the current climate of fear and hostility impacts over trivialities over nothing over nonsense over one person telling another person they're cute and saying they wanted me for coffee and he was very surprised my response as I said no it's actually really important for you me usually we know you've gotta love people you've still got to have that love in your heart you still got to initiate relationships shallow relationships friendships love whatever the whole range because you don't know when you start what you don't know what it's going to be you know it's going to time I said no you should not be ashamed of this you should not be afraid of this you should be you know initiating relationships with whatever the opposite sex the same sex whatever you're into um no shade you know just whatever you're into um this is a chilling effect on the whole movement that's really negative really regrettable and really stunts our growth as people as individuals and will stunt the growth of the network as a whole again I think I think you know people want to be loved I think people want to be known I think people want to have meaningful relationships some people want to have meaningless relationships also that's okay but the idea that you would silence yourself censor yourself in that most personal and intimate of aspects of your life that you wouldn't ask someone out for coffee that's really very scary to me that's very different from censoring yourself in writing a newspaper article are you making a public declaration of that kind of making a speech on the radio or something that's a form of censorship that goes right into the bedrooms of the nation if you don't mind my using a hackneyed phrase and I told this guy in this conversation told me anecdote I just thought I said look you've forgotten the meaning of the word scandal and I told him with a scandal in Laos with a deaf woman who was you know humiliated and victimizes ways look that's a scandal that if I find out that you have been asking vegan women to go out to coffee with you to go on a date with you or something it's not a scandal and I'm never going to shame you for that I'm never going to make you feel ashamed for that never going to insult you for that or denigrate you for that and if you go for coffee with them and the relationship works out that's great and how if you doesn't work out it's fine too it's not a scandal if I find out you went out with this particular woman and you went to a hotel and you left her handcuffed to the bed with a pile of poo to be discovered by the cleaning staff that is a scandal and then I would be furious with you and then I would have questions for you and I would say why the hell did you do this you know to whatever to this other activists I know this other person I know whatever it is okay my point is not that nothing is scandalous some things are scandalous and those are the things that you would address with real concern even if you were just dealing with a personal friend and that of course you would deal with real concern if you were dealing with someone in position of real political power of real political leadership check your head a little bit right now in veganism does anyone have real political power is anyone in a position of real political leadership the answer may be no it may be nobody is in that position or maybe one or two people who never get involved with the digital vegan demi-monde here on youtube at all there are little bits and pieces of political power scattered around but compared even to the type of political power that exists within tera vaada Buddhism nothing's at that scale yet but still sadly you see the type of disgraceful behavior that's inspired by just money and fame without power even coming into the equation yet but yes it is coming it is there in the future for us to worry about there are questions of accountability and abusive power doesn't hurt thinking about them now so look guys I that's about it that's all I had to say in this video I am on YouTube to make friends and friendship as I've said before is unequal I have real ambitions and I'm honest and open about those ambitions and if you were to look at who do I interview who I talked to on this channel the main question is do these people share some of those ambitions with me or do they have the potential to work towards those ambitions with me and in some cases I'm delighted when I find that the answer is yes I think someone like vegan gains really does have the potential to make a very positive impact very positive ends in the world in Canada is a Canadian citizen many of you might not have guessed that you can listen to the podcast I did with them what have you many of you I think assumed that the light twins didn't have a political bone in their body the interview that's like two ends did with me for many many people those the first time they heard the light twins talk about politics talk about their political envisions and again that's in Canada so you know they have that potential and they have that desire so sometimes you know people surprise you sometimes even if you don't initiate that contact with that person that colleague for that reason you find out afterwards either that there are people who are so dissatisfied with the status quo that they want to change the world for that reason or that they have some particular goal some particular project some particular ambition in mind they have a very general ambition of mine when vegan gains said in my conversation them that he wants to see fur become illegal it was he furrow Balash she wants to see factory farming disappear I very rarely think in terms that broad but of course you know I feeling you know I feel I'd sympathize totally with those ambitions but I tend to think much more in that precise sense of how do I stop the Board of Education from including propaganda material provided by the AG industry provided by the dairy industry how do I build a foundation where I can raise enough money to employ a lawyer who can pursue that goal with me so that I'm not giving depositions alone when I approached the provincial government because I want to deal with education policy and a real question democratic accountability and for how those propaganda messages get into the school board set Earth's I think in this much more precise and focused way for better and for worse you know certainly there's room for visionaries this room for people with that much broader view of wanting to just see factory farming stop going to see fur industry stop going to see a vegan world or a vegan majority or vegan 5% getting to 5% vegans would be a huge accomplishment for planet Earth debate is a legitimate positive part of that process and in the pursuit of those ambitions we do engage in exclusive behavior exclusionary behavior say because we try to put together groups of people who can really work in in a close-knit circle just in pursuit of that one ambition whether it's publishing that one book putting on that one post that one concert putting together that poster campaign etc etc etc so those are behaviors that some people regard as negative but they're really positive and on the other hand this third category drama and scandal mongering I think that is really negative it's really / Nicias and it has impacts for how we operate politically and how we live our lives personally that are far-reaching and insidious and for those of you who perceive it as positive or perceive it as just entertainment I'm going to have to ask you to just sympathize to empathize to imagine how different the world would look if you were sitting where I'm sitting as someone who has very limited ability to bring about social change on planet earth but as someone who has enormous ambition to bring about that change as someone who was getting on the telephone every day skype of course not the real telephone but someone who's getting on telephone every day and talking to other vegans who share those ambitions who want to make the world a better place but who don't know how and who don't feel confident that they can do it we're trying to build up the confidence and the capacity to take on Parliament to take on City Hall and instead what we're getting distracted with is people stabbing each other in the back over [ __ ]