(反共產) Can Anyone Deprogram a True-Believing Communist? (Anti-Communist)
13 July 2019 [link youtube]
An attempt (as an anti-Communist) to talk sense to a thoroughly brainwashed, true-believing Communist.
Youtube Automatic Transcription
I'm just having a conversation on the
internet with someone who wanted to follow up with me after watching my video discussing the definition and history of communism so this is going to be a lot less confrontational I think than the quote-unquote debates I had recently with common communists on the internet I don't even know Katherine do you consider yourself a communist would you say would you say that you are a member of a communist party or sport of communism yeah okay so that's an interesting place to start then now I take it you're you know creepy over wrong I take it you're fundamental disagreement with me is that you don't like the empirical and historical approach I have of really insisting that like the history of the last 200 years matters that that tells us what communism means and you know what what the problems are that we can learn that from studying history I take it that's your objection yeah um I think that's mostly just rhetoric and they think it's irrelevant to discussing the actual concept of communism and whether it can be achieved okay so let me ask you to define what you mean by rhetoric and something being only rhetoric I'll just I'll just give one illustration I don't think you would accept it if somebody said that the history of capitalism is only rhetoric I don't think you would accept that if someone said that the history of Buddhism or the history of Nazism is only rhetoric and doesn't matter for the reality of those concepts and those political tendencies I'm not sure how exactly to answer your question I would I would be more than willing to admit that we don't have true like chronic or true capitalism in the modern world I'm more than happy to admit that we don't have to capitalism in the modern world and yeah I mean you know there's always an idea of what exactly something is versus what something pretended to be and if you want to I can I can say either Nazis were like a special brand of fascism that not all fascism racism we can we can definitely have that without that discussion so you can imagine that's that's the opposite of the point I'm making though right so you probably noticeable you might not I was a scholar of Buddhism for about 10 years if you want to talk about what is Buddhism what are the advantages and disadvantages having a Buddhist society my approach is going to be based entirely on historical reality and I think would be ridiculous if someone said what you're saying that no no historical reality doesn't matter and your way of putting it is that that that's only rhetoric so I don't I don't know what rhetoric would mean I mean if rhetoric is an excuse to ignore 2,000 years of history that's that's not a word I understand wait so ok fine I don't know if this is what you're trying to say but if your if your argument against communism is oh but look at what look at how many people Stalin killed then that's just baseless and meaningless and irrelevant to the conversation we're having okay it's it's not so far we're at the start of this conversation so we're defining conversation right now I've got to tell you that is not irrelevant to the conversation I'm having and if you wanted to talk about the history of Buddhism or any other ideology I would also be talking about historical reality you know I learned truth from facts that's actually a communist slogan you might not know and again Karl Marx himself his method so-called historical materialism was all about proceeding from historical reality so even even if I were a communist or a Marxist which I'm not my method here would be quite easy to defend that no you know historical reality really matters okay so let me ask you a question that is do you think that if I identify as a communist it means that I would be condoning all the atrocities that were conducted under the different of different historical regimes like Stalinism or Maui's and so the question is really would I would I personally I think the question has to be asked and by the same token okay but by the same token if I meet someone who's Catholic I think I can ask them look do you really approve of the history of genocide and conquest that the Catholic Church is a part of and maybe they'll say yes and maybe they'll say no open they've got something else to say if you need someone who identifies openly as a Nazi do you do you assume that they if they if they tell you that there are Nazi don't you assume that they're also anti-semitic or racist they might not be you might be surprised but that's a pretty natural assumption is that they approve of those historical aspects of fascism in Germany I don't find people so easily based on or like forming judgments so quickly about about them I have I have definitely met people at least online who claimed to be Nazis or something or something and if if I like it's it's a lot more complex just okay so it's like this if I believe that this the the means of production should be owned by the public or whatever if I say that I want to abolish private property does it also mean that I want I want to genocide political dissenters or throw people into Google Apps I think that's you made about three points there I'm gonna respond to the first part first it's not about me calling someone a communist or me calling someone a fascist this is about you self identifying as a communist so I think it's fine you you raised the question of my motivation in categorizing somebody right but that's not actual we're discussing it well it's also with whatever thoughtless ISM or Buddhism right this is someone who self-identifies with with a given ideology so I think there is a question what would be your motivation why would you choose to describe yourself with the city ology I think you can recognize when you meet someone who describes themselves as a Nazi or describes themselves as something else then you know you're gonna make assumptions and you're gonna ask questions you're gonna learn what would be their motivation in using that label and using that category I don't I don't really know what how to answer that question if someone believes in the import that in in abolishing probably someone believes in the core tenets of communism they are a communist it doesn't matter whether they identify or not it's the same it's like it's like the inherent property of an object I'm just using the word communism to communist to define a person's beliefs it's it's a label labels apply themselves it's like say it's the same thing if I'm attracted to men and heterosexual I don't need to identify as a heterosexual person it's it's the same thing there's no need to identify as a communist but you do you choose - well yeah but I even if I didn't identify as a communist I would still be a communist do you understand what I'm saying I think these labeling and identity identity politics or whatever you call it I think that's stupid people's like I don't see why I have to choose to identify as a communist you don't you chose I'm asking you I'm asking you what would motivate you to do that why would you be motivated to call yourself communist given the terrible reputation for mass murder or the city ology has that's a pretty good reason not to call yourself communist because it's true because it's true I'm not gonna participate if people are gonna drop agree to talk to one person because I'm identify as communist because I am communist I don't really know what else to say about that like it okay so Amos like I've heard people use this argument like oh I I don't I condone the mass murder of animals and I definitely do follow a plant-based diet I'm just not going to call myself a beacon because the only because the vegan community has like some kind of as so many idiotic people in it or something like that yeah do you think that's okay I mean that would be the same thing right Katherine so Katherine okay good answer you know Katherine I think it would be really meaningful for you at age 24 if you decided that the historical record of mass murder under communism matters and that you're not going to make excuses for it and that you're not going to describe yourself with that term precisely because it it associates you with that odious history now by the same token I think it's really meaningful for example when I meet indigenous people in Canada so we say American Indians First Nations we use these different terms when I meet people like that who tell me that they still believe in God and they maybe even still pray to God but they do not describe themselves as Catholic anymore because they reject the authority of the Catholic Church in the history of genocide and so on associate with the Catholic Church I think that's meaningful now maybe you don't maybe you want to laugh at that I wouldn't laugh at that and I wouldn't laugh at you if you made an ethical decision that you know what because people like Joseph Stalin and Lenin and even Marx himself to some extent they all defined this term they dragged it through the mud or whatever they gave it the meaning you know has that that's not a term you'd want to describe yourself with I think that's really meaningful okay so here's here's what I'm saying right when I when I take Marx when I take a Marx a book written by Colin Watts like for example let's say that I'm reading the Communist Manifesto or or the cat over Capitol I read I read what's written there and I read read this kind of stuff in it and then I and then I go like oh I agree so so does the Amaya Marxist now whether you're a Marxist or not is up to you nobody's disputing it but but I read it and I agree with everything that said there and I would even get into a debate like this with you I mean how how productive is I don't even understand I mean I wanted to I want to isolate Martius ideas from from what so from for mort's Daleks right so but that's exactly but Katherine you know this that's why many people on the left will say that they are Marxian but that they are not communist that they are not Stalinist that they reject Stalin and Lenin that's very common that they've rejected Mao Zedong that's very common okay so I'm not a Stalinist that's how I would describe it I'm a Marxist I'm not a Stalinist so don't you think that's don't you that's a significant I'm not going to participate if people are gonna interact don't you think that's a significant moral distinction I think you do you began this discussion by trying to claim that there is no important moral distinction there but I think you agree with me I think it's me you think it's meaningful also to clarify that you're enthusiastic about crawl marks but that you're not a follower of Stalin or Lenin or Mao Zedong that makes sense right well I honestly I don't know like I still think yours I still think you're using rhetoric here I don't you sound really flustered about such a simple question like you sound really flustered like you're really having difficulty and this is this is really pretty basic I don't know why this would be hard for you I mean why is a small being like I'm not gonna participate I'm gonna mute this guy I'm not gonna participate if you're gonna yeah I agreed to have a one-on-one conversation with this person that's over why do you only yeah I mean what exactly do you criticize about communism other than Stalin or seriously whenever people - oh whenever I'm having a discussion with someone and then they're like oh but but look at USSR look at look at all that stuff I mean there's so much to unpack here there is so much to unpack there I mean I'm not against like do you have any idea what what Stalin or Lenin or or or Malik you have any idea what these people's principles were or what - okay so Catherine you saw that video for me about the history of communism right you saw that at least no I haven't seen your video but I okay so you said earlier you said earlier that you had so you lied to me unfortunately you should told me that a couple days ago okay so never claimed to have so Catherine then if you haven't seen any videos from me on the topic or you haven't read se articles or looked at articles yes I have decades and decades of research on the history of communism I know an enormous amount about the history of communism so I don't know what to tell you if you don't want to really slow down the conversation I could break down for you how I started studying communism at a very early age how I studied it in different university contacts in different languages how I've lived in different communist countries have no one in spoken to communist professors how my own parents were communist I have a huge amount well know Katherine you just asked me it's not a role because it's to your question you asked do I know what the principles espoused by people like Lenin Stalin and Mao Zedong are yes I know an enormous amount about the history of communism so Katherine let me ask you what kind of person in the year 2019 is motivated to make excuses for and defend Nazism and what kind of person in the year 2019 is motivated to make excuses for and defend communism what what what motivates is kind of behavior on the Internet what like did these are questions that are entirely based on rhetoric I didn't I don't even want to like I don't I how is that rhetoric you you seem to just dismiss anything that's rhetoric that you don't want to think about ok ok let me let me answer your question right you asked me what kind of person would defend Nazis them I don't know I'm not defending Nazis them you asked me what kind of person would different communism I don't know I don't know about other people I know about myself and I know other people who I've talked to and their reasons for being communism this is this is entirely pointless aside from history do you have any action Katherine do you not think you sound really flustered and really defensive in talking about really really simple questions here I'm not going if you want to talk to me about Buddhism so you said you said earlier that you also you identify as a Buddhist if you were to ask me questions about the history and politics of Buddhism I would not be flustered and defensive like this now I also say you asked me if I know about the doctrine the actual beliefs of Mao Zedong Lenin and Stalin do you I do yep ok so what kind of sources do you know from did you study this in like university textbooks or did you look it up on YouTube what what's your source right there things I write I've read capital I've read state revolutionize you know those that's how I know what they what they talked about because I've read their books think okay and how do you know how do you know about Buddhism because I read about it that's it I haven't actually gone to university and studied or something but okay so I have one more one more question I have one more question for instance what what did the Communists do to the Buddhists what's what's the history of that like why wouldn't you know that you're interested in both these things why wouldn't you know about the history of mass murder and repression of calm as destroying but that seems like the sort of thing you'd know about sure I is how is any of this relevant to actual communism I thought we were having a debate on actual communist theories and things like that we are you just don't know it yet
internet with someone who wanted to follow up with me after watching my video discussing the definition and history of communism so this is going to be a lot less confrontational I think than the quote-unquote debates I had recently with common communists on the internet I don't even know Katherine do you consider yourself a communist would you say would you say that you are a member of a communist party or sport of communism yeah okay so that's an interesting place to start then now I take it you're you know creepy over wrong I take it you're fundamental disagreement with me is that you don't like the empirical and historical approach I have of really insisting that like the history of the last 200 years matters that that tells us what communism means and you know what what the problems are that we can learn that from studying history I take it that's your objection yeah um I think that's mostly just rhetoric and they think it's irrelevant to discussing the actual concept of communism and whether it can be achieved okay so let me ask you to define what you mean by rhetoric and something being only rhetoric I'll just I'll just give one illustration I don't think you would accept it if somebody said that the history of capitalism is only rhetoric I don't think you would accept that if someone said that the history of Buddhism or the history of Nazism is only rhetoric and doesn't matter for the reality of those concepts and those political tendencies I'm not sure how exactly to answer your question I would I would be more than willing to admit that we don't have true like chronic or true capitalism in the modern world I'm more than happy to admit that we don't have to capitalism in the modern world and yeah I mean you know there's always an idea of what exactly something is versus what something pretended to be and if you want to I can I can say either Nazis were like a special brand of fascism that not all fascism racism we can we can definitely have that without that discussion so you can imagine that's that's the opposite of the point I'm making though right so you probably noticeable you might not I was a scholar of Buddhism for about 10 years if you want to talk about what is Buddhism what are the advantages and disadvantages having a Buddhist society my approach is going to be based entirely on historical reality and I think would be ridiculous if someone said what you're saying that no no historical reality doesn't matter and your way of putting it is that that that's only rhetoric so I don't I don't know what rhetoric would mean I mean if rhetoric is an excuse to ignore 2,000 years of history that's that's not a word I understand wait so ok fine I don't know if this is what you're trying to say but if your if your argument against communism is oh but look at what look at how many people Stalin killed then that's just baseless and meaningless and irrelevant to the conversation we're having okay it's it's not so far we're at the start of this conversation so we're defining conversation right now I've got to tell you that is not irrelevant to the conversation I'm having and if you wanted to talk about the history of Buddhism or any other ideology I would also be talking about historical reality you know I learned truth from facts that's actually a communist slogan you might not know and again Karl Marx himself his method so-called historical materialism was all about proceeding from historical reality so even even if I were a communist or a Marxist which I'm not my method here would be quite easy to defend that no you know historical reality really matters okay so let me ask you a question that is do you think that if I identify as a communist it means that I would be condoning all the atrocities that were conducted under the different of different historical regimes like Stalinism or Maui's and so the question is really would I would I personally I think the question has to be asked and by the same token okay but by the same token if I meet someone who's Catholic I think I can ask them look do you really approve of the history of genocide and conquest that the Catholic Church is a part of and maybe they'll say yes and maybe they'll say no open they've got something else to say if you need someone who identifies openly as a Nazi do you do you assume that they if they if they tell you that there are Nazi don't you assume that they're also anti-semitic or racist they might not be you might be surprised but that's a pretty natural assumption is that they approve of those historical aspects of fascism in Germany I don't find people so easily based on or like forming judgments so quickly about about them I have I have definitely met people at least online who claimed to be Nazis or something or something and if if I like it's it's a lot more complex just okay so it's like this if I believe that this the the means of production should be owned by the public or whatever if I say that I want to abolish private property does it also mean that I want I want to genocide political dissenters or throw people into Google Apps I think that's you made about three points there I'm gonna respond to the first part first it's not about me calling someone a communist or me calling someone a fascist this is about you self identifying as a communist so I think it's fine you you raised the question of my motivation in categorizing somebody right but that's not actual we're discussing it well it's also with whatever thoughtless ISM or Buddhism right this is someone who self-identifies with with a given ideology so I think there is a question what would be your motivation why would you choose to describe yourself with the city ology I think you can recognize when you meet someone who describes themselves as a Nazi or describes themselves as something else then you know you're gonna make assumptions and you're gonna ask questions you're gonna learn what would be their motivation in using that label and using that category I don't I don't really know what how to answer that question if someone believes in the import that in in abolishing probably someone believes in the core tenets of communism they are a communist it doesn't matter whether they identify or not it's the same it's like it's like the inherent property of an object I'm just using the word communism to communist to define a person's beliefs it's it's a label labels apply themselves it's like say it's the same thing if I'm attracted to men and heterosexual I don't need to identify as a heterosexual person it's it's the same thing there's no need to identify as a communist but you do you choose - well yeah but I even if I didn't identify as a communist I would still be a communist do you understand what I'm saying I think these labeling and identity identity politics or whatever you call it I think that's stupid people's like I don't see why I have to choose to identify as a communist you don't you chose I'm asking you I'm asking you what would motivate you to do that why would you be motivated to call yourself communist given the terrible reputation for mass murder or the city ology has that's a pretty good reason not to call yourself communist because it's true because it's true I'm not gonna participate if people are gonna drop agree to talk to one person because I'm identify as communist because I am communist I don't really know what else to say about that like it okay so Amos like I've heard people use this argument like oh I I don't I condone the mass murder of animals and I definitely do follow a plant-based diet I'm just not going to call myself a beacon because the only because the vegan community has like some kind of as so many idiotic people in it or something like that yeah do you think that's okay I mean that would be the same thing right Katherine so Katherine okay good answer you know Katherine I think it would be really meaningful for you at age 24 if you decided that the historical record of mass murder under communism matters and that you're not going to make excuses for it and that you're not going to describe yourself with that term precisely because it it associates you with that odious history now by the same token I think it's really meaningful for example when I meet indigenous people in Canada so we say American Indians First Nations we use these different terms when I meet people like that who tell me that they still believe in God and they maybe even still pray to God but they do not describe themselves as Catholic anymore because they reject the authority of the Catholic Church in the history of genocide and so on associate with the Catholic Church I think that's meaningful now maybe you don't maybe you want to laugh at that I wouldn't laugh at that and I wouldn't laugh at you if you made an ethical decision that you know what because people like Joseph Stalin and Lenin and even Marx himself to some extent they all defined this term they dragged it through the mud or whatever they gave it the meaning you know has that that's not a term you'd want to describe yourself with I think that's really meaningful okay so here's here's what I'm saying right when I when I take Marx when I take a Marx a book written by Colin Watts like for example let's say that I'm reading the Communist Manifesto or or the cat over Capitol I read I read what's written there and I read read this kind of stuff in it and then I and then I go like oh I agree so so does the Amaya Marxist now whether you're a Marxist or not is up to you nobody's disputing it but but I read it and I agree with everything that said there and I would even get into a debate like this with you I mean how how productive is I don't even understand I mean I wanted to I want to isolate Martius ideas from from what so from for mort's Daleks right so but that's exactly but Katherine you know this that's why many people on the left will say that they are Marxian but that they are not communist that they are not Stalinist that they reject Stalin and Lenin that's very common that they've rejected Mao Zedong that's very common okay so I'm not a Stalinist that's how I would describe it I'm a Marxist I'm not a Stalinist so don't you think that's don't you that's a significant I'm not going to participate if people are gonna interact don't you think that's a significant moral distinction I think you do you began this discussion by trying to claim that there is no important moral distinction there but I think you agree with me I think it's me you think it's meaningful also to clarify that you're enthusiastic about crawl marks but that you're not a follower of Stalin or Lenin or Mao Zedong that makes sense right well I honestly I don't know like I still think yours I still think you're using rhetoric here I don't you sound really flustered about such a simple question like you sound really flustered like you're really having difficulty and this is this is really pretty basic I don't know why this would be hard for you I mean why is a small being like I'm not gonna participate I'm gonna mute this guy I'm not gonna participate if you're gonna yeah I agreed to have a one-on-one conversation with this person that's over why do you only yeah I mean what exactly do you criticize about communism other than Stalin or seriously whenever people - oh whenever I'm having a discussion with someone and then they're like oh but but look at USSR look at look at all that stuff I mean there's so much to unpack here there is so much to unpack there I mean I'm not against like do you have any idea what what Stalin or Lenin or or or Malik you have any idea what these people's principles were or what - okay so Catherine you saw that video for me about the history of communism right you saw that at least no I haven't seen your video but I okay so you said earlier you said earlier that you had so you lied to me unfortunately you should told me that a couple days ago okay so never claimed to have so Catherine then if you haven't seen any videos from me on the topic or you haven't read se articles or looked at articles yes I have decades and decades of research on the history of communism I know an enormous amount about the history of communism so I don't know what to tell you if you don't want to really slow down the conversation I could break down for you how I started studying communism at a very early age how I studied it in different university contacts in different languages how I've lived in different communist countries have no one in spoken to communist professors how my own parents were communist I have a huge amount well know Katherine you just asked me it's not a role because it's to your question you asked do I know what the principles espoused by people like Lenin Stalin and Mao Zedong are yes I know an enormous amount about the history of communism so Katherine let me ask you what kind of person in the year 2019 is motivated to make excuses for and defend Nazism and what kind of person in the year 2019 is motivated to make excuses for and defend communism what what what motivates is kind of behavior on the Internet what like did these are questions that are entirely based on rhetoric I didn't I don't even want to like I don't I how is that rhetoric you you seem to just dismiss anything that's rhetoric that you don't want to think about ok ok let me let me answer your question right you asked me what kind of person would defend Nazis them I don't know I'm not defending Nazis them you asked me what kind of person would different communism I don't know I don't know about other people I know about myself and I know other people who I've talked to and their reasons for being communism this is this is entirely pointless aside from history do you have any action Katherine do you not think you sound really flustered and really defensive in talking about really really simple questions here I'm not going if you want to talk to me about Buddhism so you said you said earlier that you also you identify as a Buddhist if you were to ask me questions about the history and politics of Buddhism I would not be flustered and defensive like this now I also say you asked me if I know about the doctrine the actual beliefs of Mao Zedong Lenin and Stalin do you I do yep ok so what kind of sources do you know from did you study this in like university textbooks or did you look it up on YouTube what what's your source right there things I write I've read capital I've read state revolutionize you know those that's how I know what they what they talked about because I've read their books think okay and how do you know how do you know about Buddhism because I read about it that's it I haven't actually gone to university and studied or something but okay so I have one more one more question I have one more question for instance what what did the Communists do to the Buddhists what's what's the history of that like why wouldn't you know that you're interested in both these things why wouldn't you know about the history of mass murder and repression of calm as destroying but that seems like the sort of thing you'd know about sure I is how is any of this relevant to actual communism I thought we were having a debate on actual communist theories and things like that we are you just don't know it yet