[反共產] Against Communist Idealism, Live Debate.

we can flip the question is there any
claim of this kind that would not be a no true Scotsman fallacy so what can I say to you well do you understand look Isaac you could step in and explain a no truth no true Scotsman fallacy if somebody says to you oh well Stalin wasn't a true communist now Saddam wasn't a few communist Paul Paul was a major figures authors and leaders come ISM you don't revert any of them as a true communist this is a no true Scotsman fallacy let's let's put forward let's before the opposite perspective if a capitalist said to you that the United States is not a capitalist country because for example the government controls the price of milk and you know doesn't allow free trade and oranges these are examples of socialist style market interventions they don't know their socialist most interventionist dates so indeed socialist there are there are libertarians who say this day yeah so the Syrians do make that argument they say this isn't a true capitalist economy would you then say well okay I guess I guess we just can't include the United States in our consideration of what happens when you take the principles of capitalism and put them into practice [Music] historical specifics that may happen right it just doesn't seem like there's like much much likelihood that what we call Stalinism or maoism and so on or those kinds of governments I guess that that will repeat itself in the future right it's like the point is that I'm confident in saying I guess that most likely we're gonna have some genuine socialist future right III see that's what that's the claims that I'm actually like I guess more interested in you refused when I listen I just went back and checked the reporting you refuse to answer the question on command economy that's the first question a few possible yes so the first question I asked you was about class war which you were very uncomfortable answering you barely and then the second question I asked you was about command economy so if you just these are just two features of communism definitive as basic economies we're placing a free market account with a command economy mm-hm so let's say well if you if you support that then you support you know that these are really important elements the definition communism yeah but it's just like what the [ __ ] is I think I think you should talk to Tripp about that looks like Tripp central focus and studying caucus when he was inside ball marks we insulted me claiming I don't know the meaning of communism repeatedly but you seem to really be unfamiliar with very soon why would you would you take those two things as being constitutive of socialism or communism we're not talking about social to communism well then just amend economy this is just like being in a room full of Nazi apologists ridiculous yes you honestly don't do not know what a command economy is like do you know what a [ __ ] is look Isaac you're hanging out with a really dumb crowd you're man but this is just as dishonest as sitting around with a bunch of ice why would it be hard to answer a question about class war back and I went back and told you right that what it meant for classes to be in conflict isn't that the whole duration of society or what that mode of production is gonna be spent having war with another class and I even told you right there in the specific case of socialism it is well it was prescribed right I guess right that the first step that the proletarian revolution may take a suppress the other class so that there is no class struggle anymore no class war right so you're just like out of your league you're just saying nonsense like three how am I out of my league what absurd I asked you a very play at the class war and you think because I asked the question in terms of in terms of proceeding with the conversation proceeding with the debate okay then I'm out of my lip there's no evidence here whatsoever that I don't want to talk about there's a lot of evidence you know what you're talking about look if you don't support a command economy that's okay but you there's no reason to pretend that's not part of the definition of communism it absolutely lets you read many times that it was ridiculous think Amodeo was communist look like it's just nonsense right like little bit even one with me full statements about glass war I can say you never read Marx have you read Marx and you shall you never ever conferences for class please this isn't even right answer the question you just saying it's not communism it couldn't communism wait like the whole point the whole points right philosophies no third this is like the third time I'm gonna say this to you right it's like even like the like the most basic lay man on this topic right no unionism what communism is positive to be where it is a classless maan ulis stateless society that functions socialistic linic in economics right now give me one historical example that's monolith classless stateless and has a socialist economy so you claim you've been you've claimed you've been influenced miss Burma the definition you just offered is not what you will find in a political science textbook or epidemic context of course it's - it's not your definition all right I never finish presents you don't stick of course it is the definition you've offer is just as ridiculous as someone who supports the Islamic state saying that an Islamic state is by definition a paradise where there's none of this conflict etc and other people would have to say no that's not what in the real world that Islam what is this analogy look guys you're so you are clinging to a no true Scotsman fallacy it's a no true communist fallacy so that you can believe that you can claim really obvious elements of Marxism like class war don't matter what matters is your idealized notion of fairness that's just a subtle shift right where he was saying it was communism and now he's reverting it back to like just merely being Marxist or in the Marxist doctrine I just like Google communism right what go on [ __ ] Wikipedia or something go through Google prom you know some and show what it sure like it just yeah I think we really need to we're just I think this is really important just think there's not you're not paying there she thinks it's the command just let him answer what what is your understanding of communism I just didn't see the name PO who should address us whose week grace at praise peppers yeah I think it's been completely clear and completely consistent from started this conversation that in the same sense that I look at actually existing Muslim designs as examples of what a Muslim society is in the same way that's okay thanks then hope you enjoyed my answer the question the same way I learned from history on any other topic and the same way I'd look at real examples of societies that have abolished alcohol I would look at societies that have abolished money and what happens that so yes there are different specific well those are those interpretive interpretation is strongly just it's it falls prey to people that are bad actors and will just accuse you like for example like people accusing sargon of akkad of being a Nazi because he's you know right-leaning like that's dishonest and I think you're gonna find that what their argument is against your definition is that people are going to just accuse things of being communist without the but really both fitting criteria okay but a it is also ridiculous what they actually said their own terms they accused me of a false equivocation by claiming that historical reality matters so they were gave us a death sentence Cambodia Cambodia it is a society that self-identified as communist no distinguish between communism and sociable communism only through the entire conversation I have only been talking if you want to know in the question was what's the definition of communism that I use and SEIU I'm talking about historically real communism empirically the same way what that fascism historically real if you ask does Cambodia or does Cambodia not count as a communist society they were it's by the same token it's just a token these are people who took that book took those principles and tried to create a society based on those principles so the countries that call themselves glom unist is it fair just to acknowledge them as communists historically the other factor there is the role of the Quran so to speak is the role the sacred text it's not just the homes of Communists it's also that they're working through a context the other societies work from so communist China communist Cambodia communist Russia and even Cuba they all they didn't just call them stones Thomas they also work from exactly the same corpus of sacred texts of principles the comparison to his long really does matter it really is useful and for them to dismiss this and to say that I'm insane that I'm gaslighting that I don't know where I'm talking about it is warm ok oh my god what the [ __ ] why are you talking go ahead I want you to talk ok look the point is that it's obvious of equivocation right and borderline like you know saying something like my definition of communism is Cambodia and I use that [ __ ] definition to gauge whether or not cambogia is socialist or not or some [ __ ] it's [ __ ] ridiculous right and it's obviously equivocating on what marks on what and the other serious serious Marxist would call social as re communism it's just nonsense right so you would disagree with his assertion that of course okay it's just very simple right it's like a very well accepted widespread view in communist circles right and anyone who knows about communism right that what communism is right is a state of socialist development in which money the state and classes cease to exist right now if you want to make some empirical ass poll where you show me societies that existed in the last [ __ ] century that were stateless modulus and class mess yeah that they had those properties go ahead but you're just like not going to be able to it's just not so let's let's just make a friendly member another common America what I am guilty of is not equivocation I'm going to read you the English you simply disagree with me so why not be honest why not be reasonable and say okay I just let me read you I'm gonna tell you the meaning of the word equivocation which you don't seem to no equivocation quote the use of ambiguous language to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself so what I have said is not in any way equivocal and glide about many things including that because you're so stupid right like the point is that it would receive you've been completely dishonest this debate all that is meant by a provocation right is that we provided the meaning for wars that we are using namely communism it explains complex sorry concept X right and what you are doing is using the same word and ignoring the meaning that we provided as being X and just said no communist communism is why just ignoring all the academic I don't I didn't ignore anything from the very food very first thing I said in the conversation I was making an argument for empirical reality over chalkboard hypothetical reality that's that has been my only argument and I hate to tell you this but i won cuz you underly failed to oppose or respond to that what you engage in was simply lying that's it I was like you do in response was lying you could make claims like homage doesn't support classroom again like he's just so we're talking look again right like you were caught just equivocating while asking gotcha questions I then leave and leave no where you were able to concoct again just one fact someone disagrees with you isn't equivocating that's not the meaning of the word if I disagree with you that's not an equation let me money it's just incorrect use of the English language but we haven't completely clear or what I'm saying I may be wrong you're allowed to say I'm incorrect you disagree with me but I'm not acquitted of course you're equivocating look when you when you I say something like communist Cambodia's and is in communist or something right and you say that it's absurd it just means that you're not understanding what I mean by communist it's obvious like location right is not equivocation and it's not a fill-in insane you my only point I just meant what what is meant is that I'm using a word a certain way and that you're construing that word to mean something else and acting as if I mean that - right it's just nonsense right right don't weekend in week that I had like surpassed in how convincing it was before the debate even started has destroyed I think this will this will be a good ending question here I just want to ask you and you know you guys can both talk about this if you were to hypothetically store a nation and you wanted it to be communist but it fell through could you still say that the intention was that it was to be communist that when if it failed why don't I don't think that's I think it's possible I guess but I don't think that was the case with Solomon because I truly think that the intentions were not good with heading towards communism basically at least for the bureau for the bureaucracy you know Heysel to have any response my thesis throughout this was just a thesis in favor of learning from real historical experience but do you have any response to what he said how are the push ups that gives the debate that is all of debated here so you know to me what are you saying in response it is just as laughable as anyone else whose claim to a no true Scotsman fallacy if you guys all what what happens if you if you if you make out the whole legal if you want to know what happens when looking at gun control legislation that's just a clavicle abortion legislation any principle this my approach is to look at empirical reality historical again in the case of alcohol you can make completely convincing abstract argument that alcohol ought to be illegal in society would be a better place if nobody drink alcohol you can make an abstract argument about gun control or about gun letting everyone have a gun making every person have a free gun or something you can make those as abstract arguments on a chalkboard and they may seem convincing my insistence is that we work from stories in these values that you like and how long was it is very important that they were fused without the definition of prohibition you don't know what the historical examples are like if I ask you what's a circle and you say the bottom of a soup cans a circle the outline of the moon is a circle but if we need to know about an egg and whether it's a circle you didn't say you know it's a set of points equidistant from another point so we're asking what's the definition for you of communism because you didn't accept that you're not using ours you're lying so Brinn do you think you're telling the truth right now again what I said clearly you guys like everybody why is that used to be clear that that wasn't bran I think that was who was that was that communist being in McDonald's gizmo no that was gizmo yeah but that's that's communist vegan McDonald's okay I'm sorry well but the point is very easy way it's like I was asked do you think Cambodia for instance is communist right it's obviously going to be relevant right what I mean by communism there for you till I get a satisfactory answer right and I've provided reasons that I think are convincing from you used to use the word communism and that's Pacific plate namely it's the most perceive pervasive definition in Marxist and Marxist circles and even outside us furthermore okay I understand that but you see that was the debate no if I introduced it was about empirical reality versus why with chalkboard approach why would and what I have invited you to consider please here's a quest review which is not insulting or not confrontational why don't you reflect a little bit on why you wouldn't accept these excuses from any other geology we wouldn't accept a chalkboard hypothetical definition of the Islamic state that would that would make them in no way responsible for the blood types of story with effect and a yardstick for any other system and you know there's a chalkboard description of capitalism is the most wonderful plaintiff that you're trying to pull as your entry you're trying to pull this sneaky like empirical card right where's the question second question why not just answer the question I'm just that's what I already [ __ ] answered the question a thousand times I know I just put you you haven't answered why do you make this system me it bugged me how you misrepresented that I'll get to it but it brought me how you were misrepresented what was happening before the empirical evidence thing right like all that was saying is right given this definition of communism that have reason to hold is the most pervasive definition of communism right it's just going to be an empirical issue right well XYZ countries or communist or not and I invited you right to look for countries that you can point to that were stateless moneyless and classes in class 'no switch is what communism is so i was in the empirics as well in fact it's the onus to present imperiex's on your side here so how you feel about any of social system is there any other special system that gets your no true Scotsman fallacy because if you were debating capitalism with someone and someone defending captain within the whole history of capitalism doesn't matter the only thing that matters is this perfect chalkboard definition right I've told you three history that would that would that would that would set of a situation where the real history of capitalism is irrelevant and I've caught you because the reality is you're now an anti Marxist north what does Karl Marx said with history of capitalism what does he say you're supposed to do learn from the concrete's willful reality the point is that it's very simple right to make your locator you are what does learning what does hallmark say about learning from the history captain concrete history what'swhat's Carter's approach is his approach the same as your approach no but isn't is it oh yeah of course it is just all works would not in order to substantiate your claim right that I think right that I don't think that cut the cabbage is communist you have to show me right or like given my definition why are you repeating yourself you're not answering any of the questions no no I'm completely accepting your argument I understand your with your argument is anti empirical but it's also an tomorrow's it means you wouldn't be able to ever discussed history of capitalism or what capitalism is where the reality of what is long as or anything it's literally an empirical and well empirical disorder wendell ism does he use your method no right because you have so much to say the point right it's very simple that given my definition of car like I think that communism my claim is cambogia is not communist to it given what I believe communism to be given that that the Nishan is the one that marks user that everyone basically uses right all I did was take that that that definition see if there were some empirical examples right of the definition obtaining and it didn't young everyone's complaining about your sound I've got you 200% just please talk louder get closer to make you something just one second so if if that's the excuse you're using then anyone could say back to you feudalism as an excuse don't mix the old don't straw and it's the exact same approach someone if someone had a definition of capitalism that was different from an economy that works on private ownership or whatever right and if they had some wild criteria right given that they have this wild criteria it will apply that that's that country wouldn't be capitalist right but the point is is if din that case right if someone were to say capitalism is when sheep are like on the table or something right that would just like be an absurd [ __ ] definition right that no one has a reason to hold that all right but given that I told you and demonstrated to you right that the communism the definition of communism that I hold is completely tangible and that there's reason to hold that given that everyone else calls it that right then you're just gonna have right unless you want to be heterodox about this and be some outsider that uses the word differently you know just and you're just gonna have to accept that Cambodia just so everyone just so he understands do you mind being clear about what you mean when you say that your definition is tenable the sense the sense the sense in which you know there's some reason for you to actually hold that definition is in its mo is how most most people use the word it's how specialists and the field will use the word in the field use the word but does that make it way a whole lot more in the field because the specialist in the field would not use the word communism to describe Pol Pot's Cambodia would not use the word I mean ISM to describe the Soviet Union or would not use the word communism to describe describe China to wrap its MU let's call it reductio ad absurdum it's completely absurd to claim you've just made the claim that your definition is how most people use the word communism and that would be using the word communist we have most people who know I rest my case you.your yeah yeah resi the rest stick to sleep yeah you should go you should go and rest to you I've been completely clear why not why are you lying why not just be on the level with you were saying you were saying that would come and there's no you said you said before that's what communism was if it was [ __ ] central planning Reagan [ __ ] you know you're just we were just equivocating I guess you can concede to it now right but you know I said command economy for some reason you couldn't answer that statement you got real uncomfortable with the statement command economy I told you it's communism it's not what kind of you asked for you asked for examples of specific elements that define communism and I got two out and you freaked out but that's not an example of communism definition one is the definition one morning they are absent birthday finish calm ISM again you say you've been to a political science university I really doubt it one is the philosophy of class war I'm sure replacing a Fremont I clarified class war like three times now yeah right and you're doing that what communism you begin your do don't want you to know so you're saying and you're saying right and you're saying that you picked two empirical examples of coming out of countries that were communist that's just like obviously question begging right the point is that given the definitions are not time you know it's not an idiot look at the thesis I put forward ask isn't it so was it is that historical reality matters and you guess what I'm on the same side as Karl Marx with that you're and which I cited historical reality right when I gave up some homey and and now you're not what is historical I have to kill yourself because you've gone what SS the whole material scene which is your own religion well what is well i comply come again I stated my case empirically right he walks you just got destroyed it's just like you know it's it's fine it happens sometimes young just so I'll try to see if I can get this going again would you say that even the or would you agree that even though everyone might agree on your definition of communism that doesn't necessarily make it actually possible of course well it's not that bad that makes it possible I just don't think there's any like you know what do you mean like what do you even mean by possible like it's obvious logically possible it's obvious obviously physically possible right it's it's just a matter of plausibility or if you think that there's some chance you know we can flip the question is there any claim of this kind that would not be a no true Scotsman fallacy so what can I say to you do you understand look Isaac you could step in and explain a no true Scotsman fallacy if somebody says to you oh well Stalin wasn't a true communist now Saddam wasn't a few communist Paul Paul was a major figures authors and leaders come ISM you don't revert any of them as a true communist this is a no true Scotsman fallacy okay I didn't say that they weren't lying again you were saying that the societies were in communist not that the people were [ __ ] away called themselves communists you're just an idiot what are you doing you think that weird that stupid that will fall for like this type of rhetoric yes Michael Ince was much much more stupid than you think you are stupid yes I think your skin thank you for asking that question whether I think you stupid how can it not be a no true Scotsman fallacy if someone says slick you're talking to a student who's interested in the history of Islam and and they tell you oh no no Saudi Arabia is not an example of a Muslim country Indonesia is not an example of Muslim country the Islamic state is not no no none of these or Islamic societies what do you mean what do you study what do you actually this is engagement it look like it you understand right if someone says the United States is not I think you're smart enough right I don't think you're smart enough to understand that you're in the minority right regarding how this word is used to it that the point is just to say everybody on that in the in the most in this in the Muslim case and the Muslim same one other point what what what what in the Muslim case right what it wasn't like what you're doing what you're doing you mute him what are you doing what you're doing within the Muslim case right is merely saying is this country Muslim and by Muslim I mean that it's [ __ ] Jewish or some [ __ ] but some completely offense [ __ ] right that no one understands to be what Muslim means right now if that person tells you know or whatever it's not know it's it's not a Muslim country then it's not gonna be a [ __ ] no true Scotsman you're just using a [ __ ] silly definition of the word Izola it sounds like you're saying that the real existing examples of countries that call themselves communist is what you go by is that correct yeah it is a very major are you are you aware that the Soviet Union never claimed to have achieved communism they would have said explicitly they did say explicitly we have not achieved communism are you aware I am aware of all the propaganda on all sides I am aware of all internet traditions he's aware of propaganda on all sides it's just like we just seems like he has drank like the kool-aid yes avoiding the issue so no it goes directly to the heart of did they claim to have achieved communist let's put forward let's before the opposite perspective if a capitalist said to you that the United States is not a capitalist country because for example the government controls the price of milk and you know doesn't allow free trade and oranges these are examples of socialist style marketeer socialist most interventionist dates so we need socialist there are there were libertarians who say this day yeah so blessed Aryans do make that argument they say this isn't a true capitalist economy would you then say well okay I guess I guess we just can't include the United States in our consideration of what happens when you take the principles of capitalism of what the minute practice get bogged down and it's just like a silly thing but meaning like why is that no one is appointed the point is that is to say right this thing that exists that we normally called the u.s. is capitalist right or is free market or is in free market right it's it's whatever whatever [ __ ] word you want to use it you realize that these countries that have existed are communist yeah can I add a point of information here about how Marx defined communism he said it was two things he said it's the thing that Jung is focusing on a stateless class is money in this society that evens out urban and rural and ends value exchange and he also said it's the movement of people and attempted worker states towards that hypothetical future society which has always been a hypothetical future Society okay now did the Soviet Union seek to achieve communism not if they think up until speak to it I'm lying about what mark says though multitasking Nazis but what Hitler said Marx recognized Louie Augusto own key as a communist and and has even called them the real communists well I just want to hear though I know but even this they're lying about they're lying at every stage of the argument so what did the Soviet Union attempt communism did they say they attempted it you can McDonald's got a skew yeah they did they were sincere in Cambodia also they were sincere I mean I don't think that state you fail you see I see I don't think that 16 fever of your side I obey it's not like I I so my suggestion to you is history right or if you know any like position that's not just Stalinism right then you'd know that my most people in fact I'd say most communists right now in the world don't believe that right they don't believe right then you the most people who are Muslim don't believe that the Islamic state was Islamic the agree are you stupid the point is that they agree on the fact right that Stalinism for instance was some deformation of the actual goal that they were trying to achieve and I don't think how is that how this is that's like legitimately like this is not even debating validity of your communist fantasy its debating the significance of empirical reality versus fantasy yes yeah why would you but why would you talk about that right given that everything that we said right with that that I said at least that demanded empirical evidence right or a reference to reference to empirics was Matt with reference to him you know what necessitated empirics was met with empirics right so I don't know why you're trying to do here trying to like convince people that you're that you just want to talk about empirics versus theory for no [ __ ] reason how about this would it be fair to say we can try to constrain the conversation to theory or empirics and then maybe that'll we can move from there so like what's one would you guys rather do look for my I wouldn't because they've already conceded the point lemmya now it's a bit obvious to everyone who is like same line that this guy got shadow or a certain a flattering way I don't think they even make them kiss work you know from a flattering to flatter the other side what they're saying is that the the theory of communism remains valid remains meaningful and important and that it isn't damaged by the historical examples of what happened when people put that theory to practice now I can accept that I'm going to understand we've given arguments for that let me say I've never read the arguments and I said you have kept saying that I don't understand you or that I'm equivocating is no you're just not equivocate and then there's nothing to understand there but as a whole that asahi way that when you're talking the way discussion control or any of the whole discussion was I will discuss ties empirical historical reality that was that was what what the point is that you have to you know like search for empirical evidence right when it's relevant to the beliefs that the person actually holds raitis what you're trying to do ready to say something like you know I want to look at the empirical evidence evidence of the Soviet Union under Stalin or something and then say that that's relevant to my belief that socialism is good yes it's obviously not going to be relevant or a critique right given that we think that Stalinism is an entirely different phenomenon that is not entailed by socialism or by Bhangarh it is or Lenin is so there's a mic the vegan in the audience here and this simply asks Mike's a class do you deny any past failure of communism now I believe for every wrong but I believe your position your position is not that you deny there were failures of communism I heard what you said earlier your position isn't a feel that those failures are not relevant to the utopian chalkboard abstract definition of communism that you have in your own mind okay no that's slavery and once I gotta say one thing just for clarity's sake mike is asking that just to Brin and in chat he's not asking that at young but you know just just to be fair they seem like a gentleman but I am young should respond to that what was just said from quick please hi silicon drifting so it okay he first said do you deny that there are historical disaster it's caused by Congress the bad things have makan ISM and I was suggesting it's not that you deny there have been bad things in the other congressmen it's just that you deny the connection between those things and communism in principle your abstract definition come well the first part with the work the force first horn there I think that there well there were projects by self-proclaimed communists and people who I genuinely think we're communists at one point or another that failed miserably yeah so I agree with that but the point is not to say that it's merely theoretically theoretically sound right we think that it's actually I think at least that is that it's at least well that there is at least you never in a well that you know capitalism is not going to be an option anymore right and that the most likely option that humanity will you know what walk towards this socialism right and that it's very unlikely that these things that we call that we call like different political phenomena like Stalinism will actually repeat themselves in the future so that's my position I think it's actually likely to support socialism it to exist and for it to succeed no so it's not just about understanding there was no point saying it was equivocating or there was being dishonest I understand your position and you know it's possible to have a reasonable conversation with it it's possible recognize the other person's position and see that their disagree with you my summary of your position was reasonable and wasn't hostile and so on I have known communists all my life now Jung would you say that based on what you just told me that what I got from that is that although you you're not solely basing this off of theory you just believe that a communist system or socialist system will be inevitable and that the likelihood of a situation like the Soviet Union is not likely in the future and if that's the case no well I told you well I told I was that's what I was talking about before the point is that we think that the shirt sorry we think that the circumstances by which the Soviet Union got Stalin eyes died guess right we're very specific historical contingencies regarding the Civil War and how it affected you know membership of the body I think that you go next you both should disguise on the face the point is that I've been like out and it's like a a.m. and I live and haven't slept for it okay and also English is your second language I sympathize but you know say I think it's a simple point and I think you know I made my point but Marxism is his first language that was funny Marxism that was a good joke sorry anyway I recognized that was a good job but look you know I just say I think it's possible to talk about these things in a reasonable way and you were smart with a lot of insults against me and a lot of evasion and a lot of dishonesty well I'm just I'm just gonna finish by right there saying that I think it's quite clear that but at least for the bulk of the conversation what was just like being done was mainly rhetoric right and like no real argument except like one inductive inference so I'm just you know like as far as I'm concerned you know like it's fine you know but I'm just gonna go and you know he's repeatedly I only had one week inductive inference you have had no answer to the problem of the no true Scotsman fallacy there's only one point I don't you I told you I gave a retort I gave her a torch with my different retorts I gave her a tone I give I gave I gave you a tour to the no true Scotsman thing which is recorded and you could you're here in the record I hope that it's recorded if it's recorded you'll hear in the recording that they may when he went completely silent you went completely silent and didn't respond to it and like literally swayed switched the topic right because it was clear that it wasn't equivocation as I it wasn't a no true Scotsman alright I'm just I'm just gonna say bye and just thank you guys for the plot for the platform and thank you for letting me [ __ ] on this girl good carry on good night young good night it's so sad to see the young people on drugs so sad right now forever was I being a little overbearing with my moderation no no that was great that was great I don't even know who you are what's your name my name is crazy well on the server anyway yeah okay praise but anyway that was the best look that was the best moderation I have ever had on any online discussion legit dude thank you I mean it's huge praise I appreciate it well most moderators are really durable thank you I think progress was slow but there was some like you know it sounds like your definition of communism is command economy and class warfare something like that yeah well I'm more open-minded than that as they say my organ was just about the importance of empirical historical reality as such but you know I do think he also mean toward the end he was saying look you can define communist in one way or another like there's some there's some wiggle room some we were as long as you come to a reasonable working definition by the same token you know if you want to have it if you want have a discussion where you just define communism economically the communism is an economic system that can be illegitimate if you put in other instances there are other elements that are going to be more important but no it's it's just an historical reality approach so just just to give him much less you know um and a much less offensive example or something I would say the same thing about Buddhism like I would never accept and by the way it was a scholar what is him for about ten years I would never accept someone who gave a utopian definition of Buddhism and then said well a Buddhist society has never existed or something but you know you did use here what I was trying to say about like if it's the case of alcohol and prohibition we can come up with a definition of prohibition where it's like you create strictures against the use of alcohol and then we can go back and find the induction of here's what happens every time that we've seen in the past but without that definition we're not going to know if some future proposal that we label bla bla bla instead of prohibition actually meets the definition so if I come up with a set of proposals for gizmo ISM and then it's like well that could never work cuz that's communism gonna go well I didn't label it that what are the essential features of communism that make a gizmo ISM the same as causing rhythm I just think I just think you're being reasonable and I mean I guess you're just offended by it but I mean that's also true with Islam you have to have a definition as long altom utley that leave there are all religions that are similar to Islam but are not Islam so shirk I think um and I would accept the criticism that you know that may be really complicated doing that with Islam it's not it's much less complicated doing it I think I just did it with prohibition of alcohol but I think we can approach by degrees here like what would the purpose of the command economy and the class warfare be would it be that those seem to be like the simple solutions may be suggested or hinted at by capital when you consider that communism is defined by Marx as the movement towards this hypothetical future stateless society even if it does involve worker states that would be like a movement of communism and then we could say well it often includes those is that make sense sure of course the scissors there's gonna be that kind of diversity and that's again right from the beginning I was saying that like I said look Iran is different from Afghanistan is different from Saudi Arabia but there were these are very different places culturally and politically but mean likewise even if you were trying to talk about an economic definition most begin this is in textbooks most definitions of an Islamic state is that an Islamic state would make banking illegal in the sense of banks charging interest with banks charging usury right so I mean but in some discussions about Islam you would use that definition and say okay in order to count as an Islamic state you have to make banking and use your illegal but in some other context like we're talking about a country like the Philippines and Indonesia and Thailand where Islam is is more liberal then you'd say okay we're going to talk about Islam here but it's not Islam to find this way sure it's you know and so likewise with communism you know sometimes you're gonna have to have reasonable compromises or Kluge's or define i'm sure [Music]