Defamation Destroys the Vegan Movement From Within: Jeff Nelson, Durianrider, Vegan Cheetah.

but look there are these different
voices presenting competing visions of what these is supposed to be ethically politically morally diet airily I mean you know culturally as a cultural struggle guys like Jeff Nelson and during a writer have been I think self-consciously asserting their voices in that struggle in trying to form what the future vegans are supposed to be and there is a level on which I can respect both of them even though ninety percent of this video you're about to see is very disrespectful in case you haven't noticed in ain't news but Jeff Nelson veg source is a liar and hypocrite he saying izel was really frantic to get me to make a video about a situation with durianrider and I didn't take the bait it's not true Jeff I never asked you to take a stand that never I still don't want you to because I think your content is garbage because I have no respect for you and I have no respect for your channel so why would I ask you to it's true that I made a broad you know call to arms across the board everyone on YouTube everyone on the internet everyone who would hear me saying look if we don't draw a line in the sand against two things violence and defamation who's going to do it if not us then who if not now then when and Jeff now you are saying durianrider was one hundred percent right I fully deserved what I got from during writer it's used supporting during writer in one his use of threats threats of violence to false criminal allegations three serious defamation Jeff this is at the same time that you have just made a one hour video claiming you know nobody should be threatened with violence nobody should be defamed trolling by this definition has got to stop and you are guilty of the same things you are goddamn hypocrite I bonus yen if you think I'm ashamed of what I've done in the last six months you're wrong and Jeff I think you are a shade of what your daughters have done in the last six months and I know that I'm right I think you're coming on the internet and defaming me and playing all these games as a 60 year old man because deep down inside when you watch a video like to lick my body challenge you feel ashamed but there is actually a broader and more profound problem if everybody in the movement is tearing each other down because they perceive you as being morally impure because some jackass hypocrite lying [ __ ] like Jeff Nelson made up the lie that you're a pervert that he made the fam ettore allegations this is the movement tario tell apart over nothing in this context of muckraking of defamation etc and you're destroying the vegan movement before it as a chance to even get off the ground I bonus yen it's not an exaggeration to say that there is a struggle going on to shape the future of veganism I wouldn't say it's a struggle to control the movement as exists now because as it is now there's barely any movement to control but there is a struggle to inspire and form what the future of veganism is going to be and some people are doing that in a self-conscious way with a sincere concern for veganism achieving its goals politically or even nutritionally or in some other sense and some people i think are sleepwalking through it or in a state of denial about what it is they're struggling over what it is they're doing here on youtube or in their own activism what have you and beyond that there are some people who are more or less cynically exploiting the movement at this nation nascent stage just to get money just to get Fame maybe in some cases just for sex you asked me about the use of the term fake vegan it's used to describe people like you because you're a parasite on this movement you're not making a positive contribution you're doing your little bit to exploit and destroy the movement you are a fake vegan cheetah yeah that's right and then you turned around and you embrace durianrider and you claim that my court case is fake when you know it's real and you denounce me in the family cheetah you claimed that you you speculated that I had some kind of love affair with a 16 year old when you know I didn't you intentionally scraped the bottom of the barrel for every crumb Eli and recycled [ __ ] that you knew during writer invented a thin air just to get attention and yes you were on drugs at the time you were high on anavar and I think testosterone and you were trying to quit faking the faint vegan comment I'll tell you because it explains you cheetah explains why you're a fake vegan uh money power Fame sex these are motivations that captivate leaders and followers alike and I've got to say even though I disagree with many of the other leading voices in veganism today even though I'm a very openly revile their theories or their their political claims their political practices for being stupid let's give a quick example that you've seen on this channel few much for long time direct action everywhere had a protest where they ran onto the sports field at a baseball stadium this is a digression from top of this video but it's why you said Charis language they hold this up as a successful protest [Music] no they want others to be inspired by this and emulated it's making a very clear claim on what the future of Venus was supposed to be and there's a level of which because I mean they're not sleepwalking through it there's self-consciously articulating this as a style of activism and a philosophy and a set of political principles I can respect that they're making the claim even at the same time that I disagree with it from my perspective that protest is a total joke it just looks like a couple of fans ran into the field they had a that a banner they were trying to unfurl that said something like go vegan stop killing animals whatever it said they never even really unfurled it they interrupt the game for a couple of seconds security pounces on them holds them off the field I don't know if they spend the night in prison or what the probably pay a big fine for interrupting a major league baseball game but look there are these different voices presenting competing visions of what vgs is supposed to be ethically politically morally diet airily I mean you know culturally as a cultural struggle and guys like Jeff Nelson and dairy writer have been I think self-consciously asserting their voices in that struggle in trying to form what the future beacons are supposed to be and there is a level on which I can respect both of them even though ninety percent of this video you're about to see his favorite disrespectful towards the particular claims and ideas that they advance them vegan today I say this because while this video is in a sense just to drama video this video is in a sense just responding to controversy that's happening right now I try to make my videos in a way that I myself would find interesting if I came back and watch this five years from now or 10 years from now in veganism we do deal with the politics of the moment the politics of the month but also the politics of the millennium in many ways we're dealing with issues and struggles here that are going to continue not just for the decade but for centuries and because of their ethical wait I mean you could say the same thing on one level just about cigarette smoking nobody thinks that Western civilization is going to abolish the use of nicotine in the next five years it's not going to happen you can sit down look in the mirror and ask yourself and go through some of the statistics do you even imagine it be possible for us to abolish the use of nicotine in the next 50 years is it going to be a hundred 200 500 years but the reality is nobody quit smoking for the sake of the cigarettes nobody quits smoking to save the tobacco plants there are so many reasons to quit smoking I encourage you if you still smoke quit smoking but it's very different from the type of ethical struggle we're involved with in veganism across the board because in veganism we're not just doing it for health it's not just about a plant-based diet it is about ecology animal rights the human suffering animal suffering needless violence etc is about so many themes that we have to deal we have to carry the weight of every day and yeah I find it impossible to imagine that this struggle is going to be over in five years or 50 years I find it a lot easier to imagine that will still be asking these questions in 500 years for better and for worse with that Edmund said in case you haven't noticed in ain't news but Jeff Nelson veg source is a liar and hypocrite here's Jeff Nelson trying to be caddy and calling me out Jeff Nelson writes on his own tumblr blog sorry if you can see it I actually have the you can see the image on screen here on the edge your screen that's the fabulous graphic detail of Jeff Nelson's tumblr page but I am going to read out to you Jeff's comment on me if you want to search for it you can you can find his tumblr and you can search for dr. evil anonymous asks hey Jeff dr. evil is saying your daughters are ugly and discussing their physical appearance period are you going to slam him the way you did the vegan couple the profound question for Jeff here's his a reply now this is just a desperate move by someone who has nothing to contribute to anyone or anything he was really frantic to get me to make a video about his uation with durianrider that's a lie uh-huh I continue the quote and I didn't take that bait either he fully deserved what he got from Harley and more in my opinion his communication with me and he's written me super long weird emails a number of times has been deranged and mentally ill period that's a lie he fancies himself an intellectual but I went to Yale and then Stanford where there are a lot of actually intelligent people you ain't one of them Jeff none of them talk or act like this unemployed loser period okay I wanted to read this without stopping before I comment look um Jeff your daughters are not teenagers your daughter's a 23 years old 23 fully grown adults and you know I really didn't want to watch it but before making this video I felt an irresponsible if I didn't watch it an example of what your daughter's do for money on YouTube is called the lick my body challenge video I would be deeply ashamed if my daughter made that video I would be ashamed of my best friend made the video I'd be ashamed if my sister or my aunts I would be ashamed of myself if I made that video and at the same time of course it'd be different if your daughters were otherwise making a positive contribution to veganism or if they were making positive videos complete recipe videos about chess or science or the history of Polynesia anything okay but they're not your daughters are producing garbage content following Instagram Twitter itself acting and randa we and I criticized that content and not the only one and it's not a troll video it's an intelligent video and I can give the link here or whatever I still recommend people see that video there's nothing I regret in a video and the same video I'm criticizing heavy hitters in the vegan movement like Gary Francie ohne and Gary Yourofsky long list of important names and the video has a very clear point in very clear message that has nothing to do with whether or not your daughter's a good-looking I don't see how anyone even given you're their father if you watch the lick my body challenge there's only one example of many of garbage content your daughters are producing at age 23 as fully grown adults I don't see how anyone could watch the lick my body challenge and then feel that your daughter's Nina niranda are above criticism that nobody within veganism should day or criticize her daughters given that they made just let's just keep with one example to lick my body challenge in this case you know if it was someone else who made a very you know considerable if vegan gains made that video you'd see it in that cottage said well vegan gains made this one stupid video but he also makes videos that are well-researched and scientific or you know I think that's how most people thinking gains does make some stupid videos but they see it in the context of him also making videos that are well-researched absolutely important to say etc etc right so this is the basic point here to say I'm unemployed well Jeff uh I just did 540 hours in the classroom learning Chinese as a full-time student of the Chinese language I did five hundred forty hours in about six months in class now obviously this time studying and writing essays outside of class I wouldn't call that unemployed that's a lot more hours than a university student does in in the classroom with the teacher face-to-face okay if your daughter's at age 23 they can do the exact same thing I did I would encourage them to Nina and Aranda I would like to formally say to you that you know what your father has called me an unemployed loser but I think would be good for your lives if you stopped trying to play the guitar if you stopped appearing in commercials that promote the consumption of meat dairy and eggs for Taco Bell and other corporations if you stopped whoring yourselves on youtube in the most shameful and mind-numbingly stupid form of entertainment possible in videos that I genuinely do think are worse than pornography I have much more respect for actors who appear in real pornography then I have for need and randa producing their videos I think your lives would improve if you bought an airplane ticket to kunming china and you enrolled in exactly the same educational program I did you can move into the same apartment and you studied Chinese for 540 hours it is goddamn hard work and jeff i do not know if you have ever in your life worked as hard as I did during those those six months very hard work i went from level zero in chinese to now being able to speak and understand chinese chinese is not the first language you've done that with and it was very very difficult for me because i just mentioned you know immediately prior to that I was speaking Thai every day I was in Thailand where I got into a charming legal situation with a man named durianrider we'll come back to that later speaking the Thai language every day brought back ty and low shown in those languages to my mind and before that you know is studying Japanese it's very very hard to transition from Japanese the Chinese so when I first started working on Chinese I still had a japanese and thai really going on in my mind it's hard work so Jeff I appreciate that you're choosing to completely misrepresent my life that I'm merely an unemployed loser if you think I'm ashamed of what I've done in the last six months you're wrong and Jeff I think you are ashamed of what your daughters have done in the last six months and I know that I'm right I think you're coming on the internet and defaming me and playing all these gay as a 60 year old man because deep down inside when you watch a video like the lake my body challenge you feel ashamed I think Jeff you would be proud if I was your son or if your son had done with his life any other things I did and you know what Jeff he can your son can go and do humanitarian work in Cambodia your son can get a job working in the publishing industry doing editing of nonfiction books your son can study a whole bunch of languages and do humanitarian work and do original research and published peer-reviewed articles your son can aspire to do all those things and your daughter's can also really this is a gender-neutral thing okay but your daughters are 23 years old and what they're doing it isn't just shameful it's a lot of people do shameful stuff the internet none of my business it's also bad for the vegan movement which is why I came up briefly in one of my videos long after you and I had our discussion about her I continued soy to digress guys so I resume he was saying none of them talk or act like this unemployed loser nearly all of my friends from college run big companies comma have successful careers and normal relationships to other people period oh yeah Jeff you know that's that's really funny you should say that Jeff I don't know have you ever been involved the humanitarian project that handed sacks of rice to starving people in a third-world country have you ever done that Jeff have you ever signed up for humanitarian work where you literally woke up in the morning chopped logs of wood boiled your own lentils over a [ __ ] wood fire you've gotta boil your drinking water tubes doing and you you know one of the things you do we also did work so long-term improvement of a long-term improvement of their ability to farm food their ability to feed themselves there were other aspects the probably wasn't just sax parser have you decided that Jeff has your daughter than soda has your son I know you got money Jeff nobody's disputing that okay nobody is debating whether or not Jeff Nelson has got money what are you gonna do with it okay given the level of wealth I was born into my father had nine kids so in some ways I had advantages and in some ways I had disadvantages in many ways the kind of poverty my family experienced was temporary because it wasn't linked to my parents earnings it was linked the fact that my dad had so many kids like if a bunch of the kids are going to college at the same time it's a ton of money right but I did I did get to experience both miss being on with you I got the experience was like when my parents felt they had so much money they didn't have to worry and I got to experience what it was like when my parents said they had no money and they did have to worry I got to see both and that was my parents perspective with Rome finances however accurate or inaccurate um but yeah you know what I come from Canada and in Canada some of our poorest and most oppressed people who live in terrible conditions people who have to go out and boil their drinking water in a metal pail and carry it home in the freezing cold are CREE people a jib way people Mohawk people okay the Mohawks are doing relatively well okay wait Cree people a jib way people den a people other indigenous peoples of Canada shows the Mohawks I'm just saying in terms of actually having drinking water my impression is the Mohawks is doing better in in terms of that kind of access to basic services okay I enroll at First Nations University canada i enrolled in the study of creating a jib where languages i got i started to get involved with humanitarian work and research projects rid of those people so Jeff you are reproaching me because unlike nearly all of your friends nearly all of your friends run big companies really well you know what Jeff maybe one of the reasons why I don't run a big company it's because I never wanted to with a little bit of money and privilege I was born to in this world I was interested in making a positive difference and you can see that every single stage of my life even though my means are limited my family would not be considered rich or wealthy in Toronto not at all however if I go to a reservation if I go to a Cree or a jib way reservation in rural Saskatchewan those people consider me wealthy rightly or wrongly when I was going to small towns in Cambodia was going to some remote villages in Laos those people considered me wealthy so I actually let's keep it all the real I can remember go around Scotland and some of the people in Scotland thought I was wealthy you know Scotland has poor people too I don't know Jeff you really think you're going to shame me by talking about my failure to do run it Jeff there are so many levels on which this even though the point is defamation in which obviously your own insecurities about your own status as a leader in veganism are shining through here so Jeff's character assassination continues dr. evil is 40 spends his day on YouTube making long rants focused on young girls lie and uses big words he doesn't understand okay look Jeff point one why this is a lie your daughters are not young girls they're 23 years old they're women I know what I was like a 23 years old I was a monster I was an intellectual monster at 23 years old to say I was rough around the edges is an understatement okay that's that's at that age I had I had a lot of potential but outside of short fuse I'm now very reliable person in many anyways and at 23 Frank I still had some demons but I'm glad I mean it's always I'm glad I was not on youtube at 23 you know 23 I was a fully grown man absolutely it was and people can join the army most kinda join the army at 16 maybe join the army at 18 your daughters are 23 years old they're not girls ok secondly if you think my very brief criticism of your daughters is briz is overly castigating her harsh take a look at my criticism of fully grown men take a look at my criticism of Gary frenzy Oni gary Yourofsky take a look at my criticism of some of the the non vegans on my channel let's see a sam Harris sam Harris I think I was much more cruel to sam Harris than any other man woman or child talked about on my channel so yeah some people in the crowd I'm live streaming as I record this some of you have fond memories of just how I laid into Sam Aerith sure ok critique is part of politics critique is also part of the entertainment industry if you put your daughter's into a position where they're going to earn their living by playing the guitar and singing and dancing or going to audition as actresses there's going to be a lot of criticism and a lot of the criticisms would be much more hearts than anything I said I still stand by what I said completely completely reasonable but anyway so let's let's let's just reread that sentence and the next sentence here from the much respected Jeff Nelson dr. evil is 40 spends his day on YouTube making long rants focused on young girls and uses big words he doesn't understand period you don't have to have an Ivy League education to understand what word best describes the sky colon pervert period okay so Jeff you just accused me of being a pervert now alright sorry this is not over I've got to continue reading this gets into some serious defamation it's all series defamation why am i mentioning this now jeff has just been lying very hypocritically lying in trying to present himself as morally superior to durianrider morally superior to vegan cheetah morally superior to all the people who engage in trolling and a muckraking and lying and insults in the internet and he also had to shall we say moderate earlier statements he made in support of drawing which is interesting because he recalled he he talked about a fictional persona he's def the internet i think was something captain beefeater captain beefheart i forget um and he said he clarified that while he approved of certain types of trolling not other types of trolling and he's made a really kind of long involved convoluted one hour video explained you why he is so morally superior to all the other people on the internet whom he's apparently calling to account and you died Jeff Jeff when the opportunity was there for you to stand up and be counted when thousands of people literally thousands of people stood up to durianrider and said no more you've crossed the line Jeff you were not one of the people who did that now he's alluding to that history or very briefly he says he he's saying izel was really frantic to get me to make a video but a situation with durianrider and i didn't take a bit it's not true Jeff I never asked you to take a stand that never I still don't want you to because I think your content is garbage because I have no respect for you and I have no respect for your channel so why would I ask you to it's true that I made a broad you know call to arms across the board everyone on YouTube everyone on the internet everyone who would hear me saying look if we don't draw a line in the sand against two things violence and defamation who's going to do it if not us then who if not now then when all right there was a real crisis because I got threats of violence and serious defamation the internet all kinds of people good new people who didn't know me including some people who hated me stood up and said we've got to draw the line this far and no further uh shout out to a privilege vegan privilege vegan i believe hates my guts I think she really dislikes me as a person and partly due to misunderstanding but partly fair enough sir perspective of me privileged vegan made a video sporting me right saying hey you know I ZOL izel is in the right here during writer isn't the wrong we should stand up and do something shout out to her all kinds of people never heard of stood up in a state where they did it by email or a video Jeff you were one of them do I care no was I mad no months later you made a bunch of insulting statements against me on the internet insulting and the fam ettore and untrue statements over the internet and you behave as if you made statements that made it seem as if we'd been in contact you just said things like oh well he never explained this to me like what like people read that and they assume we've been talking like this you might we had a conversation which I'd never it was not true we never talked about we had never had any contact I barely knew who you were I recognized you from folk group photographs where you were with other vegans but like people said the name Jeff Nelson Bevan didn't really ring bells Jeff oh oh oh that guy okay you I'm not a fan okay I've just never been one of your fans and Jeff now you are saying durianrider was one hundred percent right I fully deserved what I got from during writer so Jeff this is at the same time that you have just made a one hour video claiming you know nobody should be threatened with violence nobody should be defamed trolling by this definition has got to stop and you are guilty of the same things you are a goddamn hypocrite of the lowest possible order all right but at that time to make a long story short a lot of your fans Jeff we're asking you to clarify why was it that you were still supporting terrain writer and you made a a kind of halfway statement say well you never really supported during murder and now what I've just read is you one hundred and ten percent supporting durianrider and supporting him in the worst excesses of his bad behavior it's used supporting during writer in one his use of threats threats of violence to false criminal allegations three serious defamation and of course you know what happens to you you turn around and say this has to stop now you're the one saying Jeff that somebody needs to draw the line I have a background in political science my first university degrees in political science so that cares about politics watches politics I believe politics matter my approach to veganism is political um I think I do have some positive and helpful advice to offer my fellow vegans in handling a situation like this what many of you may not suspect when you look at this you just see two people who hate each other throwing insults at each other what you may not see is how easy it is to turn a situation like this around makes link+ to make it an opportunity for something positive in the movement when you have a conflict like this one of the most useful techniques is to start by affirming what the other person says and then disagree with the content of what they're saying not the particular words someone who was great this technique was Bill Clinton if you can remember Bill Clinton in his prime in his heyday somebody would say something uh so insulting to Bill Clinton you'd ask a question that's really an accusation saying the bill clinton is guilty of mass murder is guilty of an arms deal that's morally equivalent to genocide say something really really terrible to Bill Clinton and Bill Clinton would look them back straight in the eyes smiling self confident relaxed and bilko say them you know you make an important point you know you ask a really good question I'm really glad you asked that now let me tell you something another really important technique to have in politics and I really felt Donald Trump was lacking this is that when you're dealing with a negative situation being described a confrontation conflict between two people two countries two parties what are the easiest things you can do to turned around is shift to discuss discussing the future so discuss a currently negative conflict in terms of the positive objectives the positive prospects you have the future so someone says to you well you know so let's say someone says to Bill Clinton or Barack Obama or somebody any political leader somebody might say in this big leader well look you know your relationship with Russia is terrible you know you have this problem that probably this conflict that conflict you know what are you going to do to deal with it you can very easily turn that around by looking at them sincerely and saying here's the positive situation I want to see 20 years from now doesn't sound hostile it doesn't say here's what I'm going to force the Russians to do here's the abuse here's my what is it Obama was always talk about a red line here's the red line if they if they do this bad thing then there's going to be war not in terms of negative definitions of this kind not in terms of punitive actions not in terms of threats we say you know what it's a good question thank you for asking you make a good point here's the positive relation that you can just switch to describing the positive relationship you want to have with Russia 20 years from now okay anybody with a background in politics whether it's Jeff Nelson or anybody else of the situation you could have used these techniques here what because what's the point I mean what are you ash you're wanting to accomplish where do you want to be I don't know if he's going to be alive 20 years here what's the future of veganism 20 years from now is the future of veganism all of us fighting over this kind of nonsense is the future of veganism us fighting about whether or not vasectomies should be mandatory whether or not driving a car or means that you're an immoral person or not it is possible to gain calories by eating too much fresh fruit sorry whether that it's possibly be body fat by eating excessive fresh fruit not calories you know um yeah you know what I can respond negatively in the way somebody like Obama does all too often and talk about a red line a hard limit something negative and you know what I can also respond by saying hey you know what I understand why you're making them I understand why you're upset or I understand why you're asking that tough question here's where I want us to be five years from now you know what five years from now it sure would be a better world if someone like Jeff Nelson and I were on the same team right instead of being on opposite teams and you can take it from there and you can take that conversation in any direction you can imagine this is not what Jeff Nelson does what Jeff Nelson does it is in politic it is politically inept okay so let's let's just finish a brilliant tour de force character assassination defamation from Jeff Nelson here so he's just accused me of being a pervert and I continue quote it's a good thing he doesn't have access to young girls or even to his own daughter given his weird behavior and sick obsessions he's got the whole sick Trump mindset that it's okay to objectify females and talk about their bodies I think it's good that his wife and daughter don't live near him and I hope he never gets custody and Thank You Harley for speaking out against this guy from the beginning close quote so that is pretty serious defamation from Jeff Nelson at exactly the time when Jeff Nelson is claiming he's so much morally superior to his critics to the trolls that he's morally spirit of holidays morally spirit of me that he's morally superior to the people who deigned to say criticize his daughters videos for their sections was go ahead look he says my problem is my channel objectifies females and talks about their bodies the only thing I would need to refute this as someone go to my channel look at the list of videos and scroll down it now i want to say i would actually never I would never disregard my youtubers whole output because they have some videos that do objective five females dug by the bodies the majority of youtube channels have some videos that really are just objectifying women italian with their bodies whether it's under the heading of health fitness dating romance neither red have tons of videos that do that but mean vegan gains i remember ages ago vegan gains data did a video where he was just talking about who he finds hot and sexy within veganism he mentioned other you know females on youtube who do yoga instruction videos he said oh yeah he finds this one a try to that one you know I some people would find that video offensive does that mean that the vegan gains that his intellectual output when he makes a video where he's researched the hell out of how cancer risk is linked to eating eggs and drinking milk does that mean is his whole all of his content is worthless no I would not dismiss him as a person or dismiss his whole channel or dismiss his significance for veganism terrorism if you go to my channel I have over 500 videos I defy you to show me one that's guilty of this but if so like I may have forgotten when you made over 500 videos you forget you know what I can own it do you find one do you find 50 okay you know what if I look back at them and I think those videos all right I can apologize I apologize to freely I'm really concerned about the future of veganism as a movement we just had a situation in Canada with a green party or ecological party tour itself apart imploded because of accusations about who was pro scientists and he was anti Zionist within the Green Party okay now I've said that was silly for a bunch of reasons because for one thing the Green Party of Canada they can't possibly have any influence on politics in Israel so it's a it's a counterproductive thing veganism in 2016 these are the last few days of 2016 veganism in 2017 tearing itself apart over who is and who isn't the misogynist this way who is it who is it objectifying female bodies okay as if needed Aranda the link my body challenge is not objective of you as if there aren't a million health and fitness and yoga channels and bikini channels at beach beach vacation channels there are so many channels than the vegan demi-monde that do this and I ain't even going to complain about that alright if you think the reason to disregard my content is because of my attitude towards women in their bodies I my problem is not that you choose to stop watching my channel it's fine my content is not for everybody my content is for a small but passionate audience people who really want to say for the world okay people who for the sake of ecology and the animals who are really motivated to engage in long discussions about how can we get organized alright that's something you're not going to see on Jeff's channel or on Nina and Randy's channel not going to see it on during rightist channel how can we get organized to make a difference it's not a question everybody wants to ask it's not a question everyone says that's fine but there is actually a broader and more profound problem if everybody in the movement is tearing each other down because they perceive you as being morally impure because some jackass hypocrite lying [ __ ] like Jeff Nelson made up the lie that you're a pervert that you're a creep and he insinuated that he made defamatory allegations this is the movement tearing itself apart over nothing over nothing but your ego and your shitty and securities Jeff and your pathetic attempt at your 60s to live like you're still a teenager your pathetic attempt when your daughters are 23 if you to pretend they're still teenagers this is really worse than the Green Party tearing itself apart over Israel over the israel-palestine conflict right the Green Party of Canada I mean at least that's an important issue okay Jeff this is the delusion of moral purity and I guess the thought that everyone's got to be morally pure to have a voice that matters and veganism I guess that's the delusion hi Jeff in this context of muckraking of defamation etc and you're destroying the vegan movement before it has a chance to even get off the ground and you're not thinking about where the movement is going to be five years from now you're not I wonder if you're thinking about where your own kids are going to be five years ago Jeff where do you think I'm gonna be five years ago Jeff think about it I badness yen I hope I'm not gonna be in court with durianrider five years from now but um let me tell you something guys when I first did the fundraiser people at first complained that I wasn't asking for enough money I should have asked for more and then what later there was this sort of second generation of complaints of people saying that I asked for too much money hahaha so what we've now I'd like almost six months of litigation for 6500 US dollars I think we got one hell of a good deal out of my lawyer I think I think we got a lot of legal services for 6500 US dollars I don't think anyone can complain uh whether or not we win what the outcomes are I don't know and you know what I think my lawyer would agree with that statement I think my lawyer is shocked that this case has gone on for so long and I think he never imagined that we would still be here so many months later without having the first major hearing in court he has spoken to several judges he has Nessus had several court dates but the first real hearing the first major hearing still hasn't happened yet and that would be the time after which the police would officially want to arrest durianrider is after that first major hearing um there was an interesting milestone that one of the questions I put to my lawyer early on I'll give a little bit of Baxter here you know when I spoke to lawyers in Australia and they said look you know durian writers normal way to play the game is to pretend that he has no fixed address to refuse to answer letters or court summons is for during rider to try to be to try to pretend that he's still homeless basically to avoid being easily pinned down by lawyers and police and by tax-efficient this is what I was told so they said you know it's very hard to get an answer out of him what have you so one of the questions I had my lawyer I said look let me know when is the first time that we have paperwork back from durianrider you know that proves that he's aware that this is a real case now almost everyone ever doubted it was a real case now already knows it's a real case if they asked me or they asked to see legal documents I've shared legal docs and fairs people including the one professional journalists who cover the story to my knowledge they emailed me and I gave them legal documents so everybody wanted to know knows that knows that it's legit it's real but during a writer has continued to pretend that either this isn't a real court proceeding or that to his knowledge it is not a real court procedure em as of November 2016 we got paperwork back we got paperwork back from durianrider and/or his lawyers so he himself or his lawyers in his behalf or both but I believe he was signed paperwork related to the case that was sent back to us so it is a fact at the I think he knew many months before but at the absolute latest in November of 2016 durianrider knew absolutely knew that the court case was real and the legal proceedings against them were real ongoing okay now we live in interesting times I remember a few years ago Obama was confronted by a journalist questioned by journalists about his use of drones to kill people overseas in targeted killings and assassinations by drones were these small unmanned aircraft okay and I remember to me it was very chilling Obama's reply was the worst kind of lie because he he SAT there and he said whatever you heard about those drones that has not been confirmed or if it has been confirmed it has not been confirmed by me and he went on to make other statements of this kind which basically meant I'm not going to lie to you but I'm also not going to tell you the truth and it really struck me I thought wow we are now living in an era where the concept of personal responsibility and personal accountability is so badly eroded that nobody is even going to look to this guy nobody is going to look to obama and say you know the buck stops here now again not even debating whether or not he should use Predator drones I I think there is actually on the millet I think a better president could make a convincing argument that using Predator drones is better than carpet bombing is better than other forms of bombing it's better than using the atomic bomb it's better than destroying the whole city this kind of think there is an interesting debate to be had about whether or not or what would be the ethical use of predator owns maybe it is actually better than other military tactics that for example United States used in Vietnam it's better than using land mines and all kinds of things there's an interesting to be together but we can't even have that debate if you don't admit the decision you already made if you don't come clean with that first step and say yes this is United States policy now let's talk about if it's good or bad now let's talk about the consequences now let's talk about strategy and tactics and outcomes and let's talk about where we want to be 10 years from now because 10 years from now we don't want to still be fighting the Iraq war right durianrider if you care about the vegan movement you should have had the integrity whether three months ago six months ago or six days ago to come on YouTube and say that you were wrong to say that because before I thought you were just joking to my knowledge you were just joking but whether you were joking or trolling or not you have maintained that you never heard from any lawyer or police or court authority that you were unaware that this was real and now I know for a fact I know that you know that it's real I think you've known for many months okay is it good or bad or are you guilty or not guilty sure you go to jail or not I think those are still debates to be had I think the significance of all this I think it really is the beta 1 i'm in other videos talking about that right in a sense we can't progress we can't move forward we can't even have those debates until you admit what you did wrong what you've been lying about and to refer back to what I said earlier I mean if you go back a few chapters in this story it would have been so easy for someone enduring about his position to spin this into something really positive using exactly the techniques that I mentioned you could say hey you know what that's a good question that's a good point now let me tell you something I'm going to respond to the substance the real content of what you're saying and not to just the words you can come back to it and say look like it would have been the easiest thing in the world for durianrider especially before this s going too far for durianrider to apologize for threatening with with violence he could have apologized for saying he was going to take me to the cops and put me in jail palio same is going to be beaten in the streets could have apologized for calling me a pedophile and all these other it's not the only allegation yeah he made up totally false allegations that I was kicked out of a vegan group in Quebec I've never lived in Quebec I was living in the west coast was living thousands of miles away it was sorry a very very long distance away from Quebec at the time but I was kicked out of a vegan group in Quebec because of my sexual relations so many women serious terrible allegations generator at any point you could have come out and said you know what I'm sorry that was wrong here's what I want to do in the next five years here's where I want us to all be five years ago because during writer I don't know where you're going to be five years from now but unless you kill me you know i'm not going to disappear you know i'm still going to be pursuing the form of ethical activism the form of politically engaged veganism that you've been seeing me do on youtube for all these years all right and maybe that's really going to matter to a few hundred people because i'm actually not out here pursuing Fame yes the other point I want to come back to you maybe it's good now maybe this team the concluding point of the video you know it's a powerfully distorting thing that so many people there either sleepwalking into this debate over what is the future of veganism going to be or that they're doing it in pursuit of fame someone like vegan cheetah someone like Jeff Nelson in my opinion similar during writer money fame etc notoriety okay if someone were to ask me am I so different am I not am I also pursuing Fame one of the reasons when my answer is no you can find in a great video I did I think a year ago now or maybe seven months ago I'll give the link below this video the great video did that has elitism in the title and you know it's about elitism partly video action is very positive and optimistic message if only 100 people in Canada know who i am and know what I'm trying to accomplish in veganism I could be completely happy with that if they're the right 100 people what do I mean by that look at any specific legal change like the group of people who got together in your country to try to change the labeling on cigarettes so the cigarettes had a different warning do you think 5,000 people got organized to that it's quite possible in your country it was a hundred people it was quite possible it was less than a hundred people all right and the if judgment local level provincial City Hall local level not federal level not national level 50 people if they're the right people in a good organization can make a tremendous difference okay so i'm actually not pursuing Fame I'm pursuing real organization with other activists as a video discusses in a sense is it elitist yes because if you ask me well who are the right people my answer is not durianrider okay my answer is people who can get together get organized work hard whether that's at City Hall or in the Board of Education provincial Parliament federal parliament you name it but actually that is a really deep sense in which I am different from durianrider and Jeff Nelson to her many many other differences between us why did we start this in the first place court cases durianrider as I said from the start nobody can guarantee you outcomes the only thing we can guarantee is that you're doing the right thing for the right reasons and that's why I invited you guys to donate that's why I budge you guys to join this slow-moving bureaucratic adventure with me was to draw a line in the sand and say no more I think it has already had an impact I don't know Wendy reminder founded it was real um I think several months ago right after I made the video talking about his passport number the Thai authorities did get in touch did get his passport I assume they got that from border control blah blah blah but I assume at that time at the latest he would have known it was real so I don't know exactly when he found out it was real but he has other legal proceedings against him that he knows her real so I don't know if he was always just joking around or if he ever sincerely had doubt about that whether or not durianrider was ever sincere in claiming to you that he doubted the reality of my case he could have been trolling all along he could have just been doing it as a joke in front of games that was the impression I had but if if he at one time was deceived into thinking my legal proceedings against him were fake doesn't really matter I think we can really say that calling together vegans under this banner vegans against violence and information it has already drawn a line in the sand two of the people who got the message kind of late where Jeff Nelson and during writer today Jeff Nelson is hypocritically enough dishonestly enough Jeff Nelson is calling for a line in the sand against violence and defamation he has his own problems with threats of violence and defamation well Jeff you're a little bit late to the party you could have taken the right position you could have taken a stand on point of principle a long time ago you could have opposed durianrider on this instead of approving of durianrider but nevertheless you're welcome to join the party if you also now want to take a stand on point of principle and oppose violence and defamation why don't you start by apologizing for your own defamation by making a very clear resolution that you will not sink to those kinds of defamatory tag is that we just saw I just read out an example of you using that kind of defamation against me nevertheless I can remember that for a period of I think more than one year on the Internet durianrider was very self-confident Lee and callously describing himself as the world's most effective vegan activist durianrider claimed he committed to heavily the concept that he and freely were the most effective vegan activist in the world and for a time that was taken seriously today I think I can say to you with no irony although there's no way to guarantee we'll win in court all it takes is one judge to look at these charges and maybe even look at how long it's taken and dismiss them and say look I'm sorry you have no standing so look I'm sorry your case has no merit that's it that's the end of the case think about the meanings of the words in English you plead your case you go to a court of law you plea need you ask the authorities to serve justice unto you there are a lot of other problems in Thailand Google thai politics 2016 a lot of things are going on in Thailand there are a lot of other things the establish would be concerned about you go you present the facts of the case in my case you also have to pay to have everything translate it from English into thai and have the translations legally proven to be valid you make your case and you say to the authorities please deliver me some justice you plead for it but believe me it's totally possible that even without during right are proving his innocence the court says may doesn't meet this standard doesn't pass this test we're not going to press charges we're not going to pursue a case for you same thing with pleading your case before the Crown Prosecution Service in England nobody can guarantee you outcomes what you can guarantee is that you're doing the right thing for the right reasons and I can tell you one very real outcome is that i do not see durianrider saying anymore that he is the most effective activist in the world and if he did say that today he might respond to this video tomorrow by making a new video on youtube which he doubles down on his claim that he during writer is still the most effective activist in the vegan world I think he would be laughed at with scorn across the board alright so that is a real change Jeff Nelson I think he doesn't realize the extent to which he too is being laughed at with scorn across the board all right and I as I was saying a few minutes ago only when you can acknowledge the problem only when you can confront the problem head-on then we can really start asking okay well what is the most effective way for us to be engaged in fig u'd activism because that's a question I've asked again and again on this channel and I reflect on for many different angles I think for different people they're going to be different answers different solutions etc etc but we do already have one very meaningful outcome from the case which is that I think we've destroyed many of the core illusions of the rato for cult I think we've witnessed in some ways of course it's just a coincidence at the same time during writers relationship with freely fell apart oh of dark personal secrets were exposed there were all these other dramatic events surrounding it that we're not they were not the cause of my legal case Durham writer and they were not caused by my legal case during order but nevertheless the fact that thousands of people stood up and donated money to draw this line in the sand and say here's the line no further it can be a positive turning point for veganism and I think invisibly thousands of people got the message Jeff Nelson is not one of them vegan cheetah is not one of them some of the most vocal and visible people in the movement have taken the exact opposite message some people have concluded that the way for them to become famous is to imitate durian writers worst excesses okay but there is a silent majority of people who are watching this with their arms crossed and they know that durian writers act is played out I have no idea and I have no idea where veganism is going to be five years ago there's really a set it's unpredictable I couldn't have predicted any of the stuff I could have predicted vasectomies being the debate of the decade I couldn't have predicted bicycles you know all this crazy nonsense it's to say it's unpredictable is an understatement right the permanent vacation paradigm a castration of dogs need and drinking honey or whatever I'm you know taco bell gate you know one thing after another yeah you know what there's a sense in which i can say veganism is still really unpredictable and I don't know what direction it's going in but the one thing I do know is that it's not going backwards you can't put the genie back in the bottle we're not going to miss repeat the same mistakes of the past and durianrider you were a mistake a small number of people like Jeff Nelson failed to learn the lessons from that mistake that we've all seen that in this video but there's a much larger number of people who can learn that lesson and who can now make some kind of positive change and some kind of positive progress in veganism as movement and for those of us who think about veganism as a movement that's also a way out of all this meaningless drama and chasing of Fame or lifestyle activism because I'm not trying to make a positive difference by reaching a huge number of people by reaching a huge audience by building up my status as an entertainer or a comedian or a bikini model or anything else i know that for me to make a positive difference in the country where i have citizenship where i have a passport canada for me to make a difference in canada all i need maybe 500 people but they've got to be the right people and that's why i commit this time thank you Jeff Nelson for calling me a loser etc etc that's why I'm not doing the male equivalent of the lick my body challenge I'm not doing salacious meaningless videos like so many other people on YouTube because for me it's about meeting the right people with the right motivations and then sitting down working on a methodology for we can really make a positive change in our own countries of origin if you're one of those people hit me up