Maybe I'm wrong: vegans working with meat-eaters in the movement.
23 February 2017 [link youtube]
Youtube Automatic Transcription
maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm wrong I feel
that in Canada it would be easier for me to organize a vegan foundation cooperating with conservatives who go hunting but who sincerely care about preserving forest epithet then it would be for me to cooperate with left wingers socialists communists for whom veganism is just one more check mark on a nearly endless list of so-called social justice issues maybe I'm wrong maybe I am wrong I got a letter the other day I got an email from a 60 year old vegan in Australia I'm not going to read the letter out now but one of his main points in being a vegan 60 years old he tried to get involved with an animal rights group but the animal rights group was not vegan so they had people eating cheese and meat and they refused to use the word vegan they obviously regarded veganism as negative and extreme when he raised vegan issues about slaughterhouses they gave him this lecture about how you should believe in humane slaughter and believe in people's freedom of personal choice the usual anti vegan horseshit and you know so no matter how you define your group politically you're going to alienate some people are going to exclude some people and this animal rights group in Australia alienated him it excluded him and if you have a vegan foundation foundation that is first and foremost vegan a foundation where all the members have to be vegan for then come in the door then you alienate and exclude all kinds of other people and you know again maybe I'm wrong but I mean when I was in canada it was much easier for me to be understood ethically by people who were Crean a jib way who really engaged in hunting who hunts you know moose and beaver but who regarded factory farming as evil eye I had no problem talking to those guys egan ism and they're they're not vegan you know and I've never had a problem relating to you in communicating with down-to-earth conservative people that's not all conservative people I understand who you know again part of conservatism tends to be conservation who care about conservation whether it's a forest or wetlands or lakes or rivers who may not see ecology in the way I do who may not see their personal responsibility for their choices as a consumer in the way that I do but who still fundamentally look at a map and share some of my concerns you know one of the funny breaking points in the deforestation of Canada which is much much worse than anyone wants to admit it is by the way I remember so I mean these problems only come to the government's attention when somebody lobbies for them there was a a lobby a political group that got organized of small aircraft pilots so these are what we call in Canada bush planes and these small aircraft pilots one of the main ways they make money of course they deliver packages they do all kinds of things but one of the ways they make money is by taking tourists and wealthy Canadian nature lovers taking them on small flights um normally without landing they could they could fly out land go fishing and fly back some wealthy people pay for that kind of thing in in Canada but a lot of the time people want to pay money for the small aircraft to just take them and show them the beauty the alleged beauty of the Canadian forest and looking at the map looking at the progress of deforestation and Canada these guys were having a harder and harder time doing this because the brutal reality of forestry practices in Canada when you got past all the all the [ __ ] all the propaganda you know Canada really didn't have any forest left to show off and these guys were in the tiny minority of people for in a position to know that position to see that and you know i just mentioned if you work on those issues from a political science perspective there is so much intentionally vague and misleading language in government documents however we had city documents the city of toronto that refer to green spaces and open spaces open space includes parking lots they were making claims about how environmentally friendly a city Toronto was on the basis of green space and so-called opens faith and as well check check the appendix check the appendix and check the footnotes what is the definition of open space what is the definition of green green space is not a forest right and as we say you probably all know this slogan a tree farm is not a for us um you know I think the good thing about life is and good thing about politics everybody gets a second chance everybody gets a third chance everybody gets a fifth chance you get to be wrong the stakes are not life and death here they're not that bad this guy's 60 years old he had this negative experience with one foundation he quit he's going to go on and try to have a positive experience at some other foundation he mentions I think he's there's another group called act a CT capital a CT which is a different vegan society in Canberra Australia it sounds like he's had a relatively positive experience to them he's not completely satisfied he's looking for other ways you can make a positive difference in terms of activism but still you know it's not all bad the the good news is you get to try again and again you get to try to start your own foundation to replace the foundations that are bad and it's never an either/or right if I were back in Canada I could have one foundation that's really based on positive cooperation with and outreach to hunters and meat eaters all the people who care about forest habitat and river water most of those people in Canada are conservative most of the purchase meat-eaters they're hunters there there are a lot of them are rural Canadians too but in terms of the wealthy donors for a foundation like that you know you're not they're not the social justice warriors they're not the people on the far left or in the streets testing because they want a law in Toronto that will force the government to use a list of 46 different gender neutral pronouns for four you know transgendered people who neither want to identify as as male nor female which by the way is a minority of transgender people many many transgender people want to identify as either male or female um you know the people who are in the social justice struggle of the day on the far left are not the same people who are going to be involved in those ecological issues in Canada but at the same time man there are all these fights they're all these debates that I don't want to have with the in veganism where I can totally recognize the value in reaching out to others but at some point you have to come home you have to have someplace you feel as home you have those some people who feel you or you who you feel are your colleagues and contemporaries and not your enemies I don't want to within my own organization have to sit down and deal with the arguments that humane slaughter and free-range eggs and personal choice are the solution and that veganism is crazy an extreme so I don't know man maybe that's just you know two different two different foundations two different organizations or two different sides of your life but there's no doubt that outreach there's no doubt that cooperating with people who disagree with you fundamentally is demoralizing and emotionally exhausting and difficult but you know both sides learn from it I think I mean the guys I met the Cree in a jib way guys I talked to who hunt moose and hunt beaver and care about traditional um care about the traditions of their people I remember one of them was an enthusiast about the traditional ritual dancing you know the religious dancing you know the each of them worked very different characters I don't think those guys had ever met a vegan before I'm sure of it now that I remember I don't think any of them had met someone who was a former scholar of Buddhism or who had lived in Cambodia for them meeting me gave them a lot to think about give them a very different perspective on life and gave them a very different set of questions and for me meeting them it was really interesting to meet people you know who care about those issues from such a different perspective it was interesting for me to meet people who considered hunting a wild moose moral and good but who by the same token looked at the reality of factory farming and milk production and you know animals living in captivity their whole lives and who regarded that as evil so um and conversely it is true that if I live my life within an echo chamber within a hot house within a very closed circle of people who only agree with me on those fundamental issues whether they're left wing or not then I don't know maybe through those interactions we would be learning nothing at all
that in Canada it would be easier for me to organize a vegan foundation cooperating with conservatives who go hunting but who sincerely care about preserving forest epithet then it would be for me to cooperate with left wingers socialists communists for whom veganism is just one more check mark on a nearly endless list of so-called social justice issues maybe I'm wrong maybe I am wrong I got a letter the other day I got an email from a 60 year old vegan in Australia I'm not going to read the letter out now but one of his main points in being a vegan 60 years old he tried to get involved with an animal rights group but the animal rights group was not vegan so they had people eating cheese and meat and they refused to use the word vegan they obviously regarded veganism as negative and extreme when he raised vegan issues about slaughterhouses they gave him this lecture about how you should believe in humane slaughter and believe in people's freedom of personal choice the usual anti vegan horseshit and you know so no matter how you define your group politically you're going to alienate some people are going to exclude some people and this animal rights group in Australia alienated him it excluded him and if you have a vegan foundation foundation that is first and foremost vegan a foundation where all the members have to be vegan for then come in the door then you alienate and exclude all kinds of other people and you know again maybe I'm wrong but I mean when I was in canada it was much easier for me to be understood ethically by people who were Crean a jib way who really engaged in hunting who hunts you know moose and beaver but who regarded factory farming as evil eye I had no problem talking to those guys egan ism and they're they're not vegan you know and I've never had a problem relating to you in communicating with down-to-earth conservative people that's not all conservative people I understand who you know again part of conservatism tends to be conservation who care about conservation whether it's a forest or wetlands or lakes or rivers who may not see ecology in the way I do who may not see their personal responsibility for their choices as a consumer in the way that I do but who still fundamentally look at a map and share some of my concerns you know one of the funny breaking points in the deforestation of Canada which is much much worse than anyone wants to admit it is by the way I remember so I mean these problems only come to the government's attention when somebody lobbies for them there was a a lobby a political group that got organized of small aircraft pilots so these are what we call in Canada bush planes and these small aircraft pilots one of the main ways they make money of course they deliver packages they do all kinds of things but one of the ways they make money is by taking tourists and wealthy Canadian nature lovers taking them on small flights um normally without landing they could they could fly out land go fishing and fly back some wealthy people pay for that kind of thing in in Canada but a lot of the time people want to pay money for the small aircraft to just take them and show them the beauty the alleged beauty of the Canadian forest and looking at the map looking at the progress of deforestation and Canada these guys were having a harder and harder time doing this because the brutal reality of forestry practices in Canada when you got past all the all the [ __ ] all the propaganda you know Canada really didn't have any forest left to show off and these guys were in the tiny minority of people for in a position to know that position to see that and you know i just mentioned if you work on those issues from a political science perspective there is so much intentionally vague and misleading language in government documents however we had city documents the city of toronto that refer to green spaces and open spaces open space includes parking lots they were making claims about how environmentally friendly a city Toronto was on the basis of green space and so-called opens faith and as well check check the appendix check the appendix and check the footnotes what is the definition of open space what is the definition of green green space is not a forest right and as we say you probably all know this slogan a tree farm is not a for us um you know I think the good thing about life is and good thing about politics everybody gets a second chance everybody gets a third chance everybody gets a fifth chance you get to be wrong the stakes are not life and death here they're not that bad this guy's 60 years old he had this negative experience with one foundation he quit he's going to go on and try to have a positive experience at some other foundation he mentions I think he's there's another group called act a CT capital a CT which is a different vegan society in Canberra Australia it sounds like he's had a relatively positive experience to them he's not completely satisfied he's looking for other ways you can make a positive difference in terms of activism but still you know it's not all bad the the good news is you get to try again and again you get to try to start your own foundation to replace the foundations that are bad and it's never an either/or right if I were back in Canada I could have one foundation that's really based on positive cooperation with and outreach to hunters and meat eaters all the people who care about forest habitat and river water most of those people in Canada are conservative most of the purchase meat-eaters they're hunters there there are a lot of them are rural Canadians too but in terms of the wealthy donors for a foundation like that you know you're not they're not the social justice warriors they're not the people on the far left or in the streets testing because they want a law in Toronto that will force the government to use a list of 46 different gender neutral pronouns for four you know transgendered people who neither want to identify as as male nor female which by the way is a minority of transgender people many many transgender people want to identify as either male or female um you know the people who are in the social justice struggle of the day on the far left are not the same people who are going to be involved in those ecological issues in Canada but at the same time man there are all these fights they're all these debates that I don't want to have with the in veganism where I can totally recognize the value in reaching out to others but at some point you have to come home you have to have someplace you feel as home you have those some people who feel you or you who you feel are your colleagues and contemporaries and not your enemies I don't want to within my own organization have to sit down and deal with the arguments that humane slaughter and free-range eggs and personal choice are the solution and that veganism is crazy an extreme so I don't know man maybe that's just you know two different two different foundations two different organizations or two different sides of your life but there's no doubt that outreach there's no doubt that cooperating with people who disagree with you fundamentally is demoralizing and emotionally exhausting and difficult but you know both sides learn from it I think I mean the guys I met the Cree in a jib way guys I talked to who hunt moose and hunt beaver and care about traditional um care about the traditions of their people I remember one of them was an enthusiast about the traditional ritual dancing you know the religious dancing you know the each of them worked very different characters I don't think those guys had ever met a vegan before I'm sure of it now that I remember I don't think any of them had met someone who was a former scholar of Buddhism or who had lived in Cambodia for them meeting me gave them a lot to think about give them a very different perspective on life and gave them a very different set of questions and for me meeting them it was really interesting to meet people you know who care about those issues from such a different perspective it was interesting for me to meet people who considered hunting a wild moose moral and good but who by the same token looked at the reality of factory farming and milk production and you know animals living in captivity their whole lives and who regarded that as evil so um and conversely it is true that if I live my life within an echo chamber within a hot house within a very closed circle of people who only agree with me on those fundamental issues whether they're left wing or not then I don't know maybe through those interactions we would be learning nothing at all