An interview "for the future of the vegan movement".

not much bro so you can see us yeah at
my end at my end i'm recording the video of me but not the video of you so vo i know you you keep your facebook but so i'm recording the audio in the video but your audio only okay yeah cool melissa i don't don't know your name either actually other than yeah other than being in revolution want us to call you big rev or what that's what i called you back in the day ah be online okay see me grab it is alright yeah well it's just long talk remark i I mean you wanted to initiate this I can speculate and say you probably want an apology to me some of the things because I find you to be contacting a lot of people we should need to try and initiate computation well that night that ain't new and my channel of always reaches people I've reached out to people since day one of the channel so no I mean you know people can make rumors out of anything and during writers done that like oh it's a big deal that I got in touch with people in Chiangmai I got in touch people in Chiangmai when my channel was brand new and you know only 200 people had heard of me I got in touch with people you know when I had 10,000 subscribers I've you know my whole channel of being always constantly reaching out to people from different walks of life for the future of the movement now it's more rare they reach out to someone who's for instance a competitive Fitness athlete but I remember not too long ago I did that because there was one competitive Fitness athlete who went to a vegan only conference you know this special conference for people who are basically vegan in the fitness industry and I thought wow I'd like to Yerba that look I'd like to know what that kind of conference is like or what what goes on there so you know sometimes even channels where you might not think I'd write to them saying hey you know do you want to come instead you want to talk to me when there is something we have in common that I think is worth discussing I reach you positively lock-ons people including people who either really do hate me or people who again they make sure family sure well you know well it's part of the it's part of what people do to dramatize their channels on on YouTube you know there's a lot of phony hate and phony anguish Oh Google don't feel like no I like the way you described that excuse my arch-nemesis and now that sorting that's all you can human more than I didn't really feel I mean the way I see is like I'm up against McDonald's they're the enemies a bit within that there is southern fighting with veganism and then you know I would you to give you a shout out when you first start it owes when you're in your queue subs Oh sir and I didn't like obvious is interesting because here's a guy who's doing something that other people aren't like kind of long videos talking about purely mostly the epic and a little bit of psychology of the people in the next I think of them yeah I I just wanted to know your motivation to the podcast like you're saying is to progress to media movement but I pissed you're too much man I think Michael Dixon on well look man you know I think you also were changing this this year you might say in 2016 a lot of vegans on YouTube had overly leveraged expectations back in 2016 quite a few people when they first talked to me on skype or you know sometimes by email or other kinds of messaging that one of the first things that say to me is why don't you just quit your job and do YouTube full time the people who said to me in 2016 all the time and in 2017 I think a lot of people the first big impetus for philosophical political change was actually that they lost faith in that they lost faith in the idea that YouTube was going to pay their rent and then following soon after that I think it served as themselves why are they making these other compromises like if you no longer believe you're going to make money out of this why are you compromising with somebody like durianrider whom you may find offensive or reprehensible in different ways or who may just be insulting and hurting your friends in different ways because most of us you know yeah that so that's one example there are numerous other examples I think a lot of people start to look at the meaning of and purpose of what they're doing in a different way you know as that your shifted so now I do think a lot of things have changed in the last year on your channel and probably how you perceive both your own activism ie real-world activism and the function of your channel and I think you know across the whole scene a lot of things to choose that way and also as you know like a lot of things used to scream at me about you you used to engage in active conspiracy theories claiming that I used to be an employee of the CIA and if I was that doesn't in any way discredit me as a voice of veganism let me just say I'm sure there are some perfectly good highly ethical vegans working for the agency today providing quality intelligence work I just want to say but I used to used to indulge in this in this range of things but in cute including being used to rant on used to believe that my core case wasn't real and so on at this point so many of those facts have been disclosed and proven redundantly that I knew that you'd be coming into this conversation with a very different set of attitudes and assumptions then you would have I think just six months ago like I think you now know that like on every kind of talking point or sticking point I was telling the truth and other people were lying and I was telling the truth consistently for whatever a year or however long you're counting um yeah I suppose dude I never I'm getting bit of feedback I don't know if you took bowling down little bit more Anderson okay well do that helps Willie yeah Islam yeah I think I never said we were CIA I said I'm suspicious of this guy and he might be which is this different I'd say as to whether I mean that and you know I do apologize for that because I was too quick to assume and like to speculate which are then that speculating just lead to the sort of vegan cheese of the world and I know I'll be part of that right and you and I knew each other personally before that time too so I mean as the vegan cheetah it's not the kids it's not the case that you were a complete stranger especially about me you know you and I had talked for a long time by you know internet messages back and forth and you had sent me appreciative messages about my videos and I attend you appreciate messages of yours we talk about what I'm seeing so I know you knew about things there's my family's that you Jenna my divorce everything else we had progressed in the friendship to that point so yeah both roadside observers and for me it was a little weird to see you going up to defend that way because they say I'm just answering your question you asked why talk now well I do think your channel has changed your condos change your conduct has changed I've seen that in your conduct the types of messages you're putting out now you know written messages and to give more than videos you could say about the biz to is very very different from what you're doing one year ago or six months ago and I'm not here to analyze why but I saw in that change though maybe this is now an opportunity to reach out to you positively to like I say since day one of my channel I've been reaching out to people positively including people I have very little in common with or where they're very clear you know ideological divisions even you know I had one woman on my channel is a conservative Mormon who believes in no sex before marriage and she believes that you know like pornography is evil and will take you to hell and like she doesn't even believe in masturbation I've had people on my channel who you know really fundamentally have a different view of the world than I do and you know again I think many of my critics don't appreciate that about me because they don't actually watch my channel but I've always been open to bringing people on tour you know in that sense represent meaningfully different perspectives within veganism I don't I don't think about a single person channel was actually non vegan but you know it's a theory I'd be open that to open at someone who has you know meaningful oh I have one guy who was vegetarian not Vanessa sure that guy from South America but anyway yeah so no I just say that's that that kind of openness and positive engagement that's always been part of what I'm doing and sometimes you get positive results and sends you negative results oh yeah I'd say well you just said that one thing I definitely learn I wouldn't even say 2016 was like idealistic phase I'd say that 2016 was like the death of that a little bit 2015 was very idealistic is one of the things I've learned I'd call you out before you just said is calling something to Friendship we're knowing something someone personally having never met them and I think that's one of the biggest mistakes of the online vegan community is treating people like it's a personal friendship when actually means the first time the only language of the way they interact offline would be completely different and as someone with some common packaging yeah well but there are also father's experiences when I met people in Chiangmai one of the most common comments I got was that they were astounded that in person I behaved exactly the same way I do on YouTube I speak about veganism and being in politics exactly the same way I do in YouTube I'm really straight and really honest with people and you know I talk about dating and my love life exactly the same way in person as fatu on YouTube so you know again like I don't really think you should make a general rule about that I was really straight with you you know big Rev I really talked to you about my real life my work history my personal life my divorce who I was I talked to you about all that stuff and in return you kept a mask on and never told me your real name so you were fake with me but I was 100% real with you and everyone can see that because what I talk about on YouTube is consistent with tact and again for someone like you look understand you're in a difficult position you used to really look up to you know freelee and durianrider I can remember videos you made in the past where you know and I'm not insulting you for that I'm insane but I could never just say what I can remember where you really talk to them in a very respectful way where you really did look up to them well but they lied hold on love you citizens they lie about many many important things you know just to use one objective example freely lied about our credentials in our education they also lied about medical and scientific facts you can make a long list of things where it's a really a verifiable that this is a lie and it matters and you were one of the people who rather than recognizing that I was really being consistently honest and forthright with you in private communication and publicly you chose to treat during writer as more as a respectable source information I was and you see where that got you I mean you see the path that that lady no those people were liars they were proven liars and you used to make accusations as ever call even that I was lying about my university diploma which is ridiculous I mean I've been honest about my career and my experience university to a fault I'm not talking great detail but my experience how negative it was and so on so Rev that's the way you responded to those you know those issues and opportunities and you see work at you but no so long story short some people online are going to lie to you some people are fake and some people are real and I would say the better advice is you got to know what's what you know I'm 38 so I don't mind playing that game um I mean your name you say you forget about your name while I was hiding behind masks like you names actually Benjamin is that right No you've seen my passport you've seen my passport on screen haven't you wait wait a minute yes your question is your question here's your question have I or have I not show my passport on screen I can get it now okay so so now you have two choices today of two choices either you believe what durianrider says that it's a fake passport or you believe I'm showing you my real passport and you chose you chose to believe during Ryder like face up to it you know you were one of the people no no yes and I talked to you about that I talked to everyone about that I've talked about on livestream start voting YouTube videos it's not a secret never has been I talked about that need to be with the light winds I started openly always but you were one of the people stupid enough to believe durianrider and even to go further creating new lies and stories embellishing on and expanding on this idea that I was leading a double life when I was being straight with you and if you had ever been willing and if you had ever wanted to talk to me I could have been even more stir with you anyone who doubted that the court case was real look here I can give you legal documents anyone who doubted anything I was just engaging with you buzz Li you're completing a lot of different things like one they're not they're not different things they're not different things revs and here's why because they're all about me telling the truth and you lying you lied again and again in the period but a year and a half for no good reason not for the benefit of the movement not to take down McDonald's but to hurt me to hurt me personally and professionally and on YouTube and in my job and in my personal life the last time I talked to you the last time we talked before this was you came on my live stream and you told me that you're in touch with my ex-wife and that you were going to somehow Docs me or determine so good so tell me something tell me think you party yourself like how does that make what kind of a person that makes you Rev like it's not like you talked to me about that as a friend you tried to make that into a threat so what what kind of a guy are you what kind of a guy are you what kind of person do you want to be okay so you blocked me at that point so I wasn't able to get in communication with you and oh wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute let's go to Google and write in Google email aisel mozart you had no way to get in touch with me is that the truth or is that a lot is that it is that is that the truth or is that a lie reve reve that is already a lie they continue but that is already alive I could have emailed you but the reason I contacted your wife is because I wanted to hear it from her rather than just you because if I can if I'm suspicious of you lying I can't ask you if you're lying to figure out your life with it so what you want to know for my divorce is that what you want to know about what do you want to know before I slip the situation yeah thanks I talked to her last night this is yesterday with Alaska I talked to her yesterday I'm Scott Key so what sorry sorry reve reve so you you were just saying we're not friends you've never shown me your face you never told me your name although I know it anyway because Briana jackfruits invited you out gangster that she is but look Rev like so you gotten touched my ex-wife let's do that most basic thing that sympathy requires how would you feel if someone that to you if someone got in touch with your ex-girlfriend for the same reasons you got those times when I mean I've got nothing to hide sighs I'm not I'm not asking you if you've got anything to hide you're wearing a mask you weight it you're literally you're literally wearing a mask I'm not I'm not asking if you guys can hide I'm asking you if what you're doing is moral or immoral I'm asking you how you'd feel if someone else was doing it to you I'm not asking if you're gonna deny it I don't care if you've got anything I that's that's what I'm asking you know dogs me online saying my mask we just did give me and I have okay are you gonna look you think i darkest you online how did I doctor you online well first off you send a blank email to my personal email which was sort of grandiose so we're being like oh I know and then shortly after that did a video wife you tried to using a lot of sophistry trying to make me sound as if I was a Holocaust denier that's that's daxing no no I mean you should we need so rest given your given your definition dachshund have you or have you not Doc's to me because I've seen you and directly in conversation with durianrider because you were doing a public forum I have seen you by your own definition Daxing me you dug up personal information on me you got in touch next wife you did everything you could to defame me from claiming that I from claiming that I work for Monsanto as a shill to making up you I have seen you directly claiming that I'm a danger to my own daughter that I shouldn't be allowed to see my own daughter I've seen you do all the stuff nothing was too nothing was too low for you okay so if you if you think I'm guilty of daxing you if you think I'm guilty of talk to you then you can ask yourself whether or not you're guilty of daxing me not only deduction you sat in front of it citizen four-poster world which means like the irony I completely lost the new penny in terms of right why don't you why don't you rephrase why don't you rephrase your accusation as a question what is it what does you want to know you know I already know it I you just talk to me a lot can I ask you actually did um get some cool disco Nova took you off to who I was dude anyone could a figure of you were by going to Google and putting in I'm gonna answer your question right now I went to Google and I just googled information I already knew about you like that you know you you're the religion of your parents where you grew up that you're vegan like Somerset and I got your website just the information that you've talked about on your podcast but no you have a website for yourself as a filmmaker and that's how I got your website and got your name cuz you were all that was all I had to do was go to Google and Google five or six key terms you just said you did with my name yeah I googled I googled information from your podcast and I got your website as a filmmaker no I'm telling you I googled information that you had already provided with yourself it's a long time ago and I got the website that a filmmaker I'm sorry I forget if it was Somerset or what but some of the other information about you and where you described yourself and was obvious that it was you can we hug different or feel like you put it all so look is this about is this about whether or not I'm a good person is about whether or not you're a good person what like what is the topic being discussed here okay cuz Josh let me tell you something you have no idea what a terrible person I am I'm not here to debate whether or not I'm a good person with you Josh you have no idea what I've done in my past you have no idea what I'm capable of in the future and Josh if you think I feel the same way about you I do but I'm here talking to you with an open heart and an open mind because I really genuinely care about the future of the vegan movement and everything you say and everything you do indicates that you don't at no point in the last two years have you've been acting as an activist in good faith concerned about the future of the movement ma'am all the stuff you've just described all of the games you played and trying to discredit me and defame me and insult me and hurt my feelings and talk to my ex-wife and talk to durianrider all of that whereas it got you man because look you have a background in film right that's not a secret you have that kind of film and you're capable of making videos on YouTube that are much better than the average vegan youtubers but you know you created enormous hatred and resentment against yourself you really discredit yourself with your own behavior in the last two years so now you put up a now you put up a top ten video I went and looked at your channel again you have a recent top ten video which was good you did good work we both watched it together I commented many times oh look this is better than the majority you want something in YouTube but Josh you got like 1,200 viewers on it and that is really the consequence of how you've treated a large number of people not just me you haven't acted with dignity you haven't treated other people with dignity and you're not really doing it now so dude look you started by asking me why I reached out to you positively now it was a good question and I gave you a good answer you don't seem to have any good answer for your own behavior over the last two years men ask you some really simple questions I'm interested what motivation was for changing your name from Benjamin I I have I have a video on that I think it's like 40 minutes long so do you watch my channel as you you can search the video so it's called my nom de guerre no I think you can go and watch the video if you're interested but I addressed that already you need to I did with the light twins over a year ago I've addressed that stuff many many times but you know can do you want did you want to talk about why you changed your name to vegan revolution have you change earlier yet you know Nova Josh I have talked about that at length I started with a length and Josh these are questions about my personal life and this isn't how you talks to sorsa when interviewed sorcerer Mirada isn't how you talk to bite size vegan you interviewed bite size vegan and you asked her about why she studied Sanskrit you showed her a lot of respect and you show me nice Josh Josh I'm just pointing out to you a contrast between the way you talk to me and the way you talk to other people you've interviewed including sorcerer Moya you only need for this difference as a price sorry sorry what what respect do you think I deserve Josh why don't you go ahead and tell me why don't you tell me why show me comparing me to sorcerer murasa why don't you tell me just how much less respect I deserve compared to certian Robin I knew searching Rob's back that anywhere before channel got a no facebook message that would you just send in your key behind this big difference between 9 : just messaging and empowerment yeah but that's Josh did you not hear what you said I just said I knew were like we had a few messages that we're going to sync Facebook group I didn't claim I knew or in any other sense Josh you hear that and you think that's a lie Josh you think I'm lying to you Josh josh Josh Josh do you want to get up go to the bathroom wash your hands and come back if you sound rattled man you think I'm lying to you when I say after after inviting you to really tell me what is the difference to me and sorsha what is the difference I said and I knew sorsha back in the day through Facebook that's all thing just saying I don't really have any against sorsha I made videos supporting her you may recall well I did treat you with the same level of respect starting off and put you in the top tens I gave you a shout out you know I was killing videos advise people to go and check out channel to begin with the same level of respect yeah but as time went on and I started to realize a lot very suspicious of you you'd like literally predicted behavior that didn't began up this is why context your wife and stuff after you've got you blocked me though like what I found is like I'd gone through and thinking well here's a guy I don't have intellectual discussions about things are going wrong within the vegan movement trying critique it to improve it in homie I would you say let's tell us what your remit on YouTube one of my major topics you can just check the playlists on my channel I mean I do a bunch of things but I always say again again fundamentally my youtube channel was about my life so you know I've got videos ago Game of Thrones I've got videos about a Song of Ice and Fire I've got videos about how I learned Chinese I got videos about rap music so yeah it's part of what I do but you know yeah yeah yeah so just over a period of time I started to realize well I didn't realize if I became very suspicious of your motivations because it seemed like all you spend your time doing leaders a really good example of this right it's like Gandhi right ganodi does a lot of good his next good hang on angles before you start rolling right get out before like Gandhi did a lot of neck good in terms of what he did overall for Humanity for India right but then the stories of him like hitting his wife or some other he did maybe he was like he molested some children or something right and these rumors end up being anyone who wants to discredit him that ends up being their entire focus and so I feel like a lot of your channel is going to just trying to find that one thing you can discredit another atticus ways and then making that your entire focus paper so Josh later learned a little and since Washington's up if someone wants to look up worse a Gary from seoane Gary Yourofsky and these are people who I think their motivation is very pure I bet they're not above procedure and when I think that seems to be your role in the movement with people but I'm a bit concerned that when people look for things on YouTube this is kind of like rule of idle massive criticism about person before they actually get to the content that's going to benefit them and so you're going to think that a community before they even get to the leading stage looking you might actually preventing people from learning about veganism with your criticisms so Josh how do you apply these standards to yourself because I have criticized Gary Franchione Eddy and Gary Yourofsky for example in very substantive very important matters in a thoroughgoing and responsible way so for example it's my turn to talk wait if I didn't duck so for example with Gary Yourofsky I address what he actually says about violence what he actually says about you know terrorist groups like the a LF I directly quote him I let him speak and then I give you my commentary on this you never did that for me you've never lived up to that standard for any of the people whose name you blackened I've seen you instead presenting criticism of me which is full of outright malicious lies innuendo you've just claimed you never specifically said I work for the CIA you just speculate is it something like that seems like a puzzle you you've you trade in you trade in you know a form of criticism I can't call critique and so why don't you ask yourself this question you've just asked how would someone perceive Gary Yourofsky for example if they first encountered Mullen my channel how do you think people perceive me when the first thing they've encountered are the lies you tell about me because you've now got two years of telling lies a lot of them recycled from durianrider but some of them made up yourself and you said unforgivable things about me my perverse my personal life my professional life you've said that I'm guilty of financial fraud so I'm gonna do a fundraiser in the future to publish this children's storybook let's ask you what do you think the impact is on people who might donate to support that story book you know get a copy of the story book and promote its donation if what they know about me comes from you or if what they know about me comes from durianrider because you you've been even worse than your mother two years and I've seen that man I've seen what you've said to saleable I can worsen soon if um yes Josh I didn't ask you Josh I didn't ask you if you agreed you just presented a very clear set of moral criteria for me why don't you hold yourself the same standards you don't you don't so Josh if you want now look I can respond to the deeper part of your question that's the first part of my response I can we can have a deeper discussion for the nature of critique within the vegan movement with individual Emma I'm very happy to talk about that but Josh what you're doing really is projecting what you're doing is projecting onto me a sin you will are much more guilty of and when you're not interested in kicking yourself accountable now look about Gandhi about why I rolled my eyes because we can go back to this I'm not evading it I'm happy to discuss the issue of critique in depth I really am but let me just say you start psych eval Gandhi formerly you talked about the Holocaust World War two and Nazis right I can ask you and I already asked the question have you read three books about Gandhi have you read three books about the Holocaust in world war two because my impression of you is during your whole podcast about the Holocaust etc you were constantly invoking the fact that you didn't know what you're talking about you hadn't done any reading but here's your opinion you did that repeatedly and I would you say if I knew as little about Cambodia as you know about World War 2 and the Holocaust I would never have made a youtube video talking about Cambodia Josh am i joking with you right now I'm being really sincere with you and answering you I think you can go ahead and talk about Gandhi you can do book reviews you can do video cellular stuff if you've read three books about Gandhi and about independence struggle in India or any of those issues I have I've done plenty of reading about that that's part of my education it's part of my background okay but you choose the same problem with direct action everywhere when they some they also like to call up Gandhi as an example and I'm sitting there listening thinking these guys clearly know nothing about Gandhi so there is a problem in politics when you're choosing examples that you know nothing about so I just say that's why I react that way and that's that's a separate concern but by all means we can talk about critique I'm ready to talk about substantive issues in politics and if you're ready to also then I'm happy to do that but you're not happy that you've already made a video discuss me you would just say oh I need a video on this film okay well sometimes I mean look I get email all the time asking me questions like that people say why don't you give it to a video on X and I write back to oh I actually did already like to me that's not hostile that's the beauty YouTube so you know look I don't know if you've sometimes done a whole podcast on a single topic if someone sends you an email saying why don't you do a podcast on this topic you say hey I already did a two hour podcast on that or I did a 40 minute buck isn't that's what it is man I will say the story about his name is a pretty long story so like the video is like 40 minutes so that would take out most of the conversation I think but basically am sure my be associated with his family at the time and Josh you're not my friend I mean you know it's not like you I'm in terms of opening the conversation with this you want to talk about my family life my personal life you know based on your content your conduct in the last two years you're not in a position to start there I mean you could have started by asking about my relation with my girlfriend is sitting right next to me this is an example probably that would have been a relatively shallow and casual type of conversation but Josh you know as you say you gave me credit I reached out to you and offered you this podcast after you have been in layman's terms a complete [ __ ] to me for two years solid you've said unforgivable things about my personal life of a professional like you so stuff and do you know know if you want to know about that yeah I recently that the most recent video you happened what happened as my father died so after the death of my father I said okay this is a good time for me to tell that whole story and it's a long video and yeah of course it's a deeply personal topic and Josh there's an asymmetry here you're not coming to the table willing to talk about any people's personal topics so like I say I reached out to you for the future of the moment totally also also quite personal that's an unfair assumption I mean one of the things that I was kind of keen to look into when I was suspicious to be being some sort of like shale or I they call him astroturf is like a grassroots movement people to try and cause disruption and I think I felt like there was two possibilities like intuitively I felt it was either wanted to think it was either here's a guy who's actively trying to do some soft power like division within living or here's someone who's got some severe a childhood trauma growing up and he's kind of just bringing it to the movement and like so I think it is kind of interesting you've never really talked about like your childhood or anything I don't believe on your own I think I have I think if you watch portrayal AB okay so thanks thanks Josh so your theory was either you know so your theory based on not watching the videos on my channel which you don't take responsibility for apologize for now see as foolhardy your your theory your theory so you have you have one or two theories one is that my behavior is explained by being employed by men's at Monsanto or the CIA so one theory is that I'm that I'm a secret agent and then the only other explanation you can think of is that I've been driven insane by Sheldon tremor so tell me something the videos you were mentioning earlier this is Josh Josh this is your intelligent response to watching say my critique of Gary Yourofsky and Gary Franek that's what you think of after that as I understand you the youngest sibling of like 9g is that a secret or is that something I talk about openly on my channel and you therefore know it Josh so Josh you actually see no other explanation for why some would want to sit down and talk in a thorough way about gary yourofsky's position on violence or gary Francey oh nice position on single single issue causes you can't think of any other reason than childhood trauma and insanity for those videos Josh I really have to question your intellectual David here let that's that's that's what you got from those videos huh and you Josh so you said you were going to talk about deeper personal issues do you do you do you not feel any interest you just feel nothing when you look at videos dealing with those kinds of complex issues within the ism can I still have messages from you back when you used to thank me for those same videos and used to say they were insightful and important I know I know that's how you felt about them I know I don't you value it oh my god please enter some of your content you pray and if these things that haven't otherwise been discussed and legal movement and your winnings call some people out when it's an unpopular move which mean Amanda Jeff Nelson Sam Harris when you were a fairly book and he pulled him out for it and I appreciate Neil the person to take on most people I think you know in a way that Chris what why because I work with the CIA or because I'm insane because I had a traumatic childhood why Josh what is it the qualifies you for that let's hear Josh I stopped talking I figured these childhood trauma by the time he's done the Stan Harris and Jeff Nelson call outs I figured it but sometimes that's useful just so what I'd say Jeremiah has done some good with the movement and that is partly due to the fact you so up he's going to take on the wound without even like seven years benches because he so relentless and such an [ __ ] he's the person to take down David wolf or Matthew monarch and all these other kind of like memes they were people just sending like deer antler products to go and when he tried to take down me what happened you what happened Josh how did that work out for us how does that work out from when he tries do you mean so how did that work up of Josh he tried to take down the wrong guy huh I think the way you've handled it is very typical Josh did I ask you what what you like what you think about angle it did I at do you think I care do you think I want to know your opinion Josh josh Josh is that what I want to know is that what I want to know Josh Josh let's let's come back here let's come back your claim here the view regard you regard critique Josh Josh no Josh I'm not trying to propose the right when you were suggesting I was a bad person I said you Josh I'm a terrible person you don't know the half I'm not going to debate with you with another good person I'm not here to defend my moral character understand being right being wrong I have no interest in that none Josh listen real carefully Josh listen real carefully Josh my only interest in this conversation is in the future of the movement okay that's why I engage in critique and I'm really Josh Josh it's your time to listen there's an interview you're interviewing me right I'm not interviewing you alright job I'm not here to ask you about the man behind the mask I'm not here to ask you about your childhood I'm not here suggesting your behavior is because of gel drama you're the one suggested to me but Josh the role of critique Josh the role of critique is so alien to you Josh I'm in mid censor you're Josh okay okay Josh okay Yosh the role of critique is so foreign to you that you look at criticism of that kind like my videos and Gary are asking your friend Tony and you think I must be insane and I must be the victim of childhood trauma they've done that Josh this says a lot about you and your intellectual life because you work in the film industry where critique is actually an integral part of the industry where critics are respected and esteemed even though they can't do the same things as the people they criticize I don't think you say to someone who's a critic hey you're not as good a director as the person you're criticizing therefore you know gonna have an opinion okay white why can't you why can't you regard what I do in the same way that you'd regard critique within the film industry I think I'm asking you a perfectly reasonable question Josh hang on Hank okay thank you and we are back I'm not hanging up on you this just attack understand so not into recording spat that's what I want to understand as you want as you ever okay so no I just I just put you a question I said look Josh I'm inviting you to really consider why it would be that the concept of critique itself is so foreign to you that your only explanation is that I must be insane most of the program given that you have a background in film that is you said me a given you have a background in film and in the film industry the role of the critic and the importance of critique I think is very well understood I think it's very well understood of something different from the director or the gaffer or anyone else in history I think it's understood to be something important and valuable yeah I mean I think that critiquing activism is different you've got a lot of opinions on it having not really done any activism yourself are if we're getting a really bad connection in what we were just training the video I hear you find it this end at this end you sound perfect just being honest I'm before in this in China so I can send you the mp3 afterwards I mean if you want if you want me to send you the unedited audio I can do that it's no big deal okay because we have this end you you don't perfect now yeah yeah you've got a lot of things on actors and having not that it's all theory it's not from experience which means is not wisdom is just so sometimes knowledge sometimes okay so let's let's let's pretend that's true let's pretend I have no experience in politics or activism okay let's pretend it's true do you in the film industry say to someone how dare you criticize this director when you've never directed a film do you say that yes or no who votes on the Oscars Josh Josh who votes on the Oscars are only people who are actors able to vote on best ask actor Josh Josh let me let me ask you something else the whole academic discipline of philosophy of political science do you think you say hey how dare you criticize President Nixon when you've never been present United States is that a valid response to critique because I come out of an academic background and I have all kinds of experiences you don't have so so look Josh you've said in the past you thought my backstory was a lie that I didn't really live in Laos and Cambodia but I wasn't involved in First Nations politics and the Green Party in ecology okay so look Josh Josh you I have seen you say it more than ten times the internet that my backstory is a fraud I've seen you so much so you can lie now but you've said it and I'm not managing but Josh given what you know what my backstory I think I'm I'm much more qualified than a film critic is to comment on a director and Josh you come out of a field you come out of a discipline where that role was respected and seen as vital to the progress of the art form okay so you're holding people to very strange standards here so Josh even if it was true even if I had never been involved with the Green Party if I had never been involved ecologic or politics if I'd never been involved with First Nations politics or Laos or Cambodia if I never any of these experiences that do color my videos Josh I would still have a role and you know it and you know you should respect it and shame on you for suggesting that I must be insane that it must about a traumatic childhood that there's just no other explanation for why I would take on that role in pointing the finger at someone like Gary Yourofsky and saying hey this guy this guy is so pro violence he says the al f is not violent enough those are issues that are really worth discussing those are debates we really need to have with the vegan movement another one you know I was the one guy who stood up and raised the issue of castration of animals was a huge discussion people were not having within veganism hey castrating dogs a huge issue what are you going to say to me I've never castrated a dog so I don't know okay sure man sure we'll reconnect okay okay coo coo we'll hang up and reconnect well we're gonna and we are back okay this is clear you know good obviously criticism is necessary I'm not saying the criticism is bad in and of itself and then like yourself who have stayed within academia and just become critics without necessarily doing things on self sight and so I think being depends on the quality of the criticism there's still good criticism a bad criticism of course when your whole focus on gary yourofsky's in talking about palestinians I've never done now you make that I've never done that but I've never done that I never raised the Palestinian with him never once never once never once that was not my issue with them I'm sorry you can go back to watch the videos oh not Hank you have made that criticism of no you're thinking of privileged vegan you're thinking of another channel there are other channels to raise that privilege be I've never taken them on honor I've never accused him of being a racist and that's sort of thing no that's not my issue then like you knows the Palestinian issue the Israel issue that's never been what I raised to them never though what's a more like three videos I didn't them but you can see all three I think I think there are three may be misremembering it's four it's - but no but do my videos I'm just saying that's not a national example well if you want to take it as a hypothetical example because that is true like other channels like privilege we again made that a big deal but no it's not my issue so I think to talk about in such a or like your criticism of cowspiracy for example which I thought was good it was also it wasn't even enough because I think you have to recognize the cowspiracy does a lot good but your whole focus was what was wrong with it that's not true at all if you do think you may not I think you may not remember the video but it's a very positive video but it is on cowspiracy I based on say anything bad about the film I talk about the type of bureaucrats you deal with in government in political science but no I don't say any motive of the film that was my first video to get over 10,000 views and it's a very very positive review of the austerity so I'm sorry I'm you know just mentioned your memory it's flawed in these particular examples but there are examples I mean you know I gave a very very negative viewed a Casey taps book here baby get over here I gave a very very negative you - Casey taps book on vegan activism that's one where you know throughout the whole video most of everything I say is negative that it's that's a bad book you know I've said it's okay I'm good to them sir just messin polite sir I've given you know I mean I think my video reviewing Gary Francie Monet's book again that's a good that's a mix of praise and and criticism so you know no I mean it is what it is man again a lot of people their opinion in my channel is not based on actually watching my content it's based on what the writer says about it and specifically you may be well no really because it's very influential thousands of thousands people watching writer thousands of people watch unnatural vegan and other channels that only say bad things about me and no they haven't actually watched the the critiques themselves so no I served that's just not true but during a martyr himself repeatedly stated that I had slammed cowspiracy that's not true at all you can go back and watch the video it hasn't changed it's a very very positive I don't remember Harley saying I just remember watching the video myself and you really focused on like some of the folk statistics which is my point was is the cowspiracy repeated was a little bit more balanced but with Gary Yourofsky you're not looking at his neck good you know like the good D does you just focusing on amenities that that's like saying to a film critic but you failed to say it was a really great film I don't believe that I actually disagree with you I don't believe he's not good when we have a substantive difference of views so I'm not going to say that because that's not my view as critic I'm sorry it's as simple as that but you know that's not what a my opinion about Gary Gary Yourofsky yeah this is like the hypocrisy of it is I'm obviously if you feel are you being miss actress hang on hang on like if you feel like you're being Apocrypha please please you're such a reasonable guy Josh I mean you know I'm just wondering what's coming next I mean first it's that the only reason I could be a critic is that I had traumatic childhood and I'm insane or I'm employed by the CIA as the episode as if those are mutually exclusive possibilities you're not giving the CIA enough credit and what kind of people do you think they employ but but now now now I'm a hypocrite for having made the incredibly straightforward argument I just made so let's hear it let's hear I'm a hypocrite Josh first off before I begin I'm sorry the body I'm getting a bit of feedback again okay that may be a tax additional hazard but I'd rather that thanks is on to go back to which dead ages ago there was a guy I think his name was like Bob I want to say the Lambo or something there's got Robert someone and he was basically an infiltrator for the police in the 80s when the al F was doing lab raids and he was like I remember that starring Melissa yet but I've actually got a book I found this book from like this Anika's library where I am there's just this random Anika's library and there's a good comic libel and actually says that this guy was one of the main people to come up with the idea to do the McLibel leaflets then ended up becoming this huge case against McDonald's where they won so is actually the police I remember all that yes yeah the police spy ended up doing like a lot of good for the movement back he also he also got a woman pregnant had a kid with her right that's the same guy or is that a different story yeah with this woman called hell in my absence these people it very yeah and they've never apologized for it as well by the police and starfish weird well your first thing is I'm not British you should know that you know ya understand art like please don't interrupt me I feel stupid I have to say so I just let me make my point before you cut me off if you get offended away but but I feel like I'm not criticizing you for the sake of mischaracterizing when I say that and I have done that in the past just for the sake of like you know like satire or whatever you want to call it I like like you think oh please come and keep grabbing the like okay is that I think it's a valid point if you're the youngest of nine don't grab my friend is it there might be some sort of art it's a useful trait to have in some aspects but I think sometimes you want to try knock who's ever the top dog in the active scene of their platform just because you've got this kind of insecurity in the youngest and there's older children in you these if you want to it's kind of like this thing of like oh I can I've seen it a lot I've got like big families where you know there's like five six kids and the youngest one and I've had to be a lot tougher and likes ladder the others just kind of be find a place in the pecking order and I do think that I think that before I knew about the nine siblings being it was kind of natural for me to assume that maybe like there's some ulterior motive other than perverting the vegan movement now I can continually are vegan I think you're you want to progress the vegan movement but I think you I think by the fact that you have this insecurity with other people being perceived as more of you know you think you think insecurity is my problem Josh that's your analysis of my character your your sincere impression of me as a person down to and including the fact that I'm doing this Park as a man you think you think insecurity so let me let me just ask you compared to anyone else you've met through vegan YouTube to the security self-confident security do you think I have more or less of a problem with insecurity than say sorta murabba then say then say any of the people you met when you were hanging out with um yeah when you were going to the meetups in London you think that more or less a problem with insecurity than vegan games well why don't you tell me what your standards are for security because in my whole life of people have known me face to face people hate me for all kinds of reasons but lack of self-confidence is not one of them Josh insecurity I have never heard anyone claim that insecurity is one of my character traits yeah including your friend durianrider once you ask him how insecure I am when people threatened to beat me up in the street okay Josh I don't I don't think you've been watching my channel real closely if your analysis of my character is that what motivates my critique of Garry Franchione a big one example is insecurity so no Josh thanks thanks for your psychological perspective I've listened I tried not to direct you too much but Josh it's laughable because you're laughable that Ansel seemed quite insecure let's be fair you can really talk eating directly handling and growing up you mr. Chang Josh josh Josh Josh good I mean I don't know how much personal information you want to share but did not actually grow up with eight siblings in the house no I did one sibling in your house that's true yeah you really didn't have siblings to compete with constantly but Josh you can present the same psychological analysis and claim that my problem is that I grew up with Sega Master System instead of Nintendo like you can construct the same your line of reasoning here is only meant to discredit me it proceeds from nothing to nothing so there's nothing meaningful for me to respond to here okay but Josh yeah you know what it was really tough growing up with Sega Master System when all the other kids had Nintendo and you know I just couldn't relate to them in the schoolyard when they were talking about Super Mario Brothers you know it was real tough and that must be the reason why I made that video discussing the politics of Gary Franchione a you know you've you've had so much insight Josh no Josh uh and if you you read that answer as insecure if you read that answer is insecure it's obvious you're willing to interpret anything is insecure Josh compare me to anyone else during writer took on Josh anyone else during a minor took on who showed who showed more or less insecurity says a lot of people collapsed a lot of us feel rich shows to me who is boosting war in Syria putting a lot of words into my mouth as a strong man and one thing you say miss your friend during writer I've never I wouldn't consider myself to have been a friend of Jeremiah's I think had you not discredited in the way you would he would have fallen apartment away Abby you seem to be taking is like a personal victory I use I just cured Oh who's putting words into my mouth now Josh Josh back when during writers started coming after me back when during writers started coming after me you were so eager to be his friend you were so eager to tell him lies about me you were so eager to get in touch with him I've seen you do it you did it on public comments on YouTube that I've seen where you wrote your little poem in which you claimed you just said you talk to me in a satirical way you wrote your poem in which you claimed I should never be allowed to see my daughter again think about that you said that to another man another man in the vegan movement for numbers you didn't say if someone works at McDonald's you didn't say that someone's working in vivisection lab you said that to me you said that I should never be allowed to see my daughter again and then during Ryder go to be like oh you have inside dirt on this guy eyes'll tell me more I want to get to know you wrote back saying yeah I want to tell you do reminder I've seen those messages so yeah I guess you're right you never worries friend Josh you were just really eager to jump on the bandwagon at the first opportunity to harm me and that's all it is it's just hurting another human being that's all you wanted to do Josh you're saying this is based on facts but I'd say like personally just from my my subjective experience of you I'm not someone who would be comfortable like employing you as a baby third you know I mean that's just my personal credit that's just these you're blaming me for my perception or energy based on what I've seen of you Josh I'm not blaming it all Josh from the first time you brought up my moral character I said you I'm a terrible human being I'm not going to debate with you whether I'm a morally good character or not Josh you have no idea what I did in Cambodia you have no idea what I'm capable of you never will Josh I'm Josh look into my eyes over Skype here you're not showing your face but I'm showing mine Josh Josh I'm a terrible human being now why don't you tell us something about yourself why don't you tell us what a good or terrible person you are why don't you tell me you might feel like you're booking me by repeating the ending and starting everything my name just got home cast Josh Josh about every said Joshua Josh that's not the question I asked you Josh tell me what yourself okay so I can't miss my it's like I've got my feedback feedback is an occupational hazard of the Skype column in chat calling to China and is what it is I just went astray it's um yeah I've actually just done a seven-hour podcast discussing everything I'm ashamed of and calling out my own egging I don't know if you thought that but you want to have an opinion on me about experiencing one of my content which apparently is not something people should be they should okay so just your friends think you're clever like do other people find this intelligent when you talk this way just look bad you and I hang out with very different people we hang out a very different walks of life but like I don't know if you think this is dazzling me but you just sound like an imbecile afraid but we started talking about the meaning of critique in the movement and you had jack to say you thought this was great a character assassination vote against me I think it's a meaningful topic but you're not bringing anything meaningful to it okay now you want to call me insecure I said well I've got to tell you something Josh in my life there are people that hate me for being too self-confident I get that all the time I never get a problem with people saying I'm insecure never I'm just telling you that and your reply to that was well that's a really insecure answer now Josh you may think that's dazzling and witty and intelligent I got to tell you from my perspective that's like a log of soggy Weetabix that's not really great repartee but whatever I mean this is the level of conversation Maddon with you so we can talk about the role critique in the movement but I told you again you've repeatedly claimed that I'm trying to debate that I'm trying to convince you I'm a good person and I keep reminding you know from the first time this came up I said I'm a terrible person you have no idea and I'm not going to debate that with you anytime you're gonna question my moral character and fumarole character I'm not just going to agree with you I'm going to go further and say you don't know the half the fan and so well I'd say you I called you insecure in your cleaning to be confident I'd say like that I'd call that arrogance and arrogance is a symptom of being insecure so no matter what I say I'm insecure great agree hundred percent Josh you the first person to interpret me as insecure I just telling you in terms of other people's perception of me excellent Josh Josh let's look at your track record of being right and wrong in the last two years all the BET's you made whether it was about durianrider whether it was about me was anything else Josh I can't remember anything you were right about Josh Josh you bought a lot of lies okay you you're a gullible kind of guy what were you write about last year Josh was my court case real or fake was my passport real or fake was I telling the truth or telling a lie but all those things you said I was lying about you've been lying both intentionally and unintentionally you've been lying and you've been believing and repeating other people's lives and I've been as you're doing the truth I can't remember any serious issue you were right about Josh including Gary Yourofsky and Gary Francine it's not like you took a position on those issues it's not like you made an intelligent video reviewing the same book disputing the philosophical issues I can't remember anything you were right about this year Josh why he couldn't carry friends yoni as you said his name is very project it says that you watch it on Vince knows me yeah but you know I've also been Italy it's an Italian name I'm basically doing a halfway well in terms of Italian actually the consonant sound would be different but entire more like front seal on a but you know like to intentionally mispronounce his name I find a bit bizarre so I kind of go halfway with them where it's like I'm Americanizing the consonant sound but I'm not going to like delete a whole syllable so but it's an Italian name ma'am so you're saying you know how to pronounce his name better than he does no I'm just saying that's my preferred pronunciation but okay interesting um ah yeah first off you're a well-traveled band Oh Josh Josh you're a well-traveled man I remember you saying I'd never been to Laos because I couldn't pronounce the word aloud I remember you claiming you could prove my backstory was fake and I worked the CIA because of my pronunciation of the word Lao a monosyllabic words so you care a lot about pronunciation you've traveled so much Josh have you have you been to Italy why don't you and wait and when you phoned my ex-wife was that satire to Josh sorry Sagan when you phone my ex-wife was that satire to nothing I was just inquiry I was trying to understand the situation better I'm just clearing the entire story because unreliable narrators are an issue to anyone and we see we see how understanding you are we're really seeing that now Josh okay so it's like two questions and then I let you just like monologue answer is the lawsuit you showed the paperwork why was Hardy referred to his during Roger on the legal documents and secondly secondly why did you go to Chiangmai in the first place okay well sure these guys should these questions have been answered but because his comments use the name Durham Ryder you'll see the legal documents use both so that's how you handle a legal alias in the tie system so you know like it'll say like durianrider Hartley Johnstone because like it's this I think again it's a different legal system but that is the way they do the paperwork there is that they state both his real name and the alias used and I know different countries have different legal systems it's not real interesting just you know you know Josh you know so much about Gandhi I was just so impressed when you claimed you greatly forget your comments and Gandhi were so well informed and intelligent now you're going to tell me about legal services and toilet Josh you're a font of information what you want to talk about independent woman in India weekend in that that podcast you did it but World War two in the Holocaust I could really tell you'd read a whole pamphlet about the history John but Josh if you want to give me your opinion it can't be worse than Joe bests opinion I mean maybe this is what your compares will do maybe your chuffed up and feel like you got well informed perspectives because you watch Joe best channel I don't know man but you say if you thought that was if you thought that was a sign of a shoddy lawyer you know said well you know maybe you could help me out next time Josh maybe you can help me find a better lawyer in Thailand do you do you have some connections do you want to actually help or do you want to be a troll who sits on the internet and says the family torreón slanderous things about me because that's what you've done for like two years now I'm just asking no but I'm asking you a question now Josh why didn't you ever try to help Josh I was in a tough situation you never tried to help me why should I try and help you this oh oh I've got an answer Josh I've got an answer I've got an answer because you can and because you care about the future of the vegan movement there's a great answer Josh Josh that's a great answer Josh why do you try to help just because you knew me and because you care about the future of the vegan movement because yeah you could have reached out to me at any point positively and helped and you never did your neighbourhood even today you're still not how we're going to help never you've never tried to be helpful okay I was in Italy with Alex breezy when you're constantly calling you more in the middle of the documentary project when you're like sorry how many phone calls how many phone calls ever deli icons how many phone calls ever at least three name alone no one I had one phone call with a little breezy so it if you're if you're not if you're not aware that you're lying I can't help you grow grow I had one I had one phone conversation with them and it wasn't very long but Ali hey man Ali never tried to help either but you sure didn't so huh I have this idea everyone should drop whatever they're doing even if they're making a documentary battery Oh Josh such a reasonable comment Josh Josh so Josh what did I what did I ask Ali to do what did I ask him do you ask me to point no no I didn't nothing I cut off Ali Tabrizi because he told me he was supporting durianrider I said well look man that's you know in the situation he wrote back to me I can tell you exactly what he said he wrote back to me he said he talked to Harley he talked so after doctor didn't you talk to Harley and he said no you know he's not going to support my case because he's talked normally he's heard hourly started it so no he did not use the words I am supporting during writer but for me it was like look look man and he was a friend of mine as much as anyone leader that's a friend he wrote to me responding to my videos I wrote in respond is talked about vegans talked about our personal lives we talked about who we were dating in as much as you become a friend with somebody through Facebook messages and that kind of thing Sher Ali was my friends and I was sore to see him go and I talked about that at the time but you know if somebody is your friend and then they tell you that they say no I talked to Harley I heard his side so almost said I didn't I didn't ask to be congenital about me I was shocked when he did I didn't give Ali to Breezy any kind of ultimatum about that but Ali didn't care and didn't want to help and from my perspective he was taking hourly sides so look I've just spoke to that point stating you so you do you want to lie Josh do you want to live in make-believe land like what's your point here support your mother you just didn't want to have a position on it well thank you thank you for making up that story that has nothing to do with reality I'd like to tell you about my pet unicorn I feed it only free-range organic mangoes like dude Josh do you think I'm interested in your perspective you're talking about a facebook conversation you've never seen and you started this claiming that I was calling him constantly and had three long phone calls with him when I didn't so there's already started with you either killing lies or repeating lies Ali told you I mean maybe you made this out maybe it Sonny told you maybe it's just how your memory blurt it but everything you've been saying is false and wrong if you think I'm really interesting your perspective on a pretty brief facebook conversation that you didn't see I'm not so thanks Josh for volunteering you're ignorant and dishonest opinion once again I'm not really impressed like dude as with Gandhi and the Holocaust I'd advise you to talk about things you know about or to ask questions because otherwise it's your unicorn those organic mangoes man I'm really not interested in what you feed your unicorn for the Moyne sense is um with the Holocaust City what I do now come on come on dude dude no no this is exactly what I'm not going to you transport when you know as much about the Holocaust dinoball Cambodia will talk to the hokum I'm not I am not going to discuss the whole cost with you I'm not because you're speaking out of ignorance the whole thing that I said on that podcast was you just came at me wait a minute Josh you came at me saying I'm not qualified to talk about activism you haven't asked me Josh you didn't ask me Josh you didn't ask me what experience of God I've been to protests I've got experience of activism you didn't ask me you told me you told me I have no experience of activism I do I had experienced activism okay sorry sorry why would Josh let me ask you Josh do i or do I not have experience with activism I do I also have a background in politics that makes use of them but Josh in European I'm not qualified to read a book by Gary Fran Sione and do a book review on it because I don't have enough experience sexism statue perspective that's that's the position you presented here and we debated it the rule is fatigue but let me tell you Josh if there is one dude if there is one dude on the internet who does not know enough about the Holocaust if you hate I'm a terrible human being because I'm telling you straight to your face bro you do not know enough about the Holocaust to come to me with this and you said yourself in that podcast over 20 times that you don't really know what you're talking about but and you haven't done any reading and you don't really know the history but and dude that's the end of it you don't know there's no but and I'm not making any excuses for you whatever you want to say about the Holocaust I'm not going to hear it on the podcast I mean it was turning on next I know and look at what a great job you did and dude when you've done as much reading but the Holocaust as I've done a book Cambodia let's talk about it but dude next topic I have zero sympathy for you there you were talking out of worse than ignorance and you see where it got you oh I understand all the people I know I know your excuses Josh I've heard you excuse your excuses you don't know what you're talking about but and I've just told you that's not good enough Josh you I don't know how old you are Josh but you're old enough to take this l and hear this advice Josh I am NOT look Cambodia it's really controversial I talked about mass murder in Cambodia more than a million people getting killed terrible violent history I would not speak on that with your excuse of I don't know what I'm talking about but I've never read any books about it but I wouldn't do that I think that's immoral and bad and wrong and I think you should live up to more of an adult standard when you're thinking about what you know and just what reading you should do before stepping on an issue like that whether it's Cambodia the Hocus I'm not particularly attached to the Holocaust I got relatives who died in the Holocaust I knew one Holocaust survivor face to face I did growing up Josh Josh do you actually think that's irrelevant just let me talk you I'm not Josh I'm very directly telling you I'm not letting you talk and I don't think it is irrelevant that I knew all duster about survivor growing up I don't think that's irrelevant Josh to you do you think that's wrong this is you vegan yes we met so that interests me she wasn't just know I am no we met we met through vegan YouTube I remember we could talk about the relationship fine okay sorry what next with you sorry I just review so I couldn't I couldn't hear that sorry just yeah did you have a Jackman oh she doesn't ever on YouTube channel is usually we met through we met through vegan YouTube we met because she watch my channel yeah yeah I see um as soon I feel like you've answered maybe you want to link to me a video where you discuss instead but just like a simple answer on what your motivation going to chang-myung and doing videos with like Jay Kings and stuff okay well III think that's simple enough to answer it doesn't take 40 minute stands we have mentioned that in many different videos including Q&A videos where the person who's you question live so I just say that's no big deal but the answer is pretty boring and detailed I mean I had a new job I was supposed to start in Kunming China so I had to do paperwork for that job that paperwork included getting legally valid documents from a hospital and the hospital had to meet certain criteria and I knew I could do that in Chiangmai there's a good hospital that they're little bit leased to good hospitals in town touching my you've been to Chiang Mai so you know I'm talking about and I couldn't by the way I actually couldn't get that work done in Victoria before I left Canada so in terms of what my options were I needed to go somewhere to get that paperwork done and somewhere I spoke the language because I still spoke enough Thai at that time to communicate and Thai you know not at a great level but simple interaction so that was one reason for it to be chiang mai specifically you rather than say VN Chen capital city of Laos or what have you but I needed to go somewhere where I could get a good Hospital get that paperwork done I wanted to be in a city preferably that had a Chinese Embassy in case there was a problem with the paperwork or go to the embassy and Shang might does have a Chinese embassy so there were a bunch of considerations like that and then I was going up to Quin Ming so I arrived before the festival started and I left only a few days into it beginning I wasn't there for the festival but it's also true I did have a couple of friends in town who I met up with you mentioned Jake Eames I really liked his channel it was taken down because of people like you Josh which is sad you know sorry what did I you say I said it was taken down because of people like you I didn't say you did yeah the kind of behavior you show on the Internet I know a lot of people have quit because of yeah and including your picture Josh you engage in a lot of sleep chamber behavior on the Internet Josh you engage in a lot of shameful Damon that you say a lot of things just are people's feelings Josh I can just throw up screenshots of the things you said trying to make unnatural vegan cry it's ridiculous like you you get at me you say I'm an unreasonable critic when I'm criticizing a natural vegan I'm talking about the content of our philosophical political views I've seen you just engage in the most vile attempts to make her cry personal insult and I've seen you done all kinds channels and yes Josh I know people who have quit vegan YouTube because of the content that you you and people like you bring to it sure it's sad people quit the scene because of the poison you bring to those and well that's the answer aggression was Chiangmai I had a bunch of practical reasons to be there and then also a couple of people like Jake and Lea were in town who I know it can meet up with and then met up with other vegans who wanted me with me so yeah I've talked about that from different angles in different videos and interviews and Kunis I personally found video I'm getting a fever it's um I personally found the the content that you made with Jay Kings quite disturbing because it almost seemed like you were grooming him to kind of by speak your language and have your opinions and he was just happy to have a friend he felt quite disassociated from the rest of the group and you were quite keen to just point out all the negatives of Chiang Mai and to really kind of like cook his worldviews yours and then like a for example in vegan to you Josh you're an idiot do your friends think you're insightful when you say this kind of like this is your opinion of my relationship with Jake Eames what the man like you do you talk this way to people face to face like yes you personally found it this well just let me tell you something else Josh every single person I knew who was your friend two years ago none of them are your friends now I know a lot of exam FS people write to me I know a lot of people who hate you and not even for your antics personally so dude you should probably examine this behavior like I could say something equally Josh I could say something equally as horrible about you talking to Zarya and I don't I could say yeah well you know I watched your video here's my psychological theory about your relationship with Zarya I don't say that to you I haven't said anything like that you in this whole conversation you repeatedly do this now it also happens that you're wrong to a ridiculous extent but Josh I don't know you know if this the way you talk to people it explains to a large extent to me every single person I knew who back to you or was friends they were just who knew you and was cool with you for meeting you at vegan events you know we touched base you're at the same picnic or whatever in London every single one this person said to me Wow I now realize what a despicable piece of garbage the revolution is like dude you've got if no I say I said I said everyone I know Josh I said everyone I know who's known you over these last year's that's everyone I know there are other people I don't know I'm sure you got friends I'm sure you got friends who really love it when you say I watched a video on youtube of you talking to someone else and here's my psychological theory about your relationship but there are people who really appreciate your insight and I think you have got to be the worst possible witness that but Josh you're batting zero here you're batting zero for a thousand every single one of your theories has been an L so thanks for your theory about my relationship with Jake but it's garbage no next theory next brilliant insightful question okay so from talking to your wife she said you can your portrayal of being the father and being very involved and begins like and you'll even watch my channel I haven't seen my daughter in years with it we need hang on you already sit here while you're telling lies about my personal life my relationship with my daughter everything I study with your own version of you took my mom's understanding the point in front of me and I just have to sit here in this do shout my name on repeat just calm down me right so judge why should I calm down Josh why should I calm down you're talking about my relationship with my ex-wife and my daughter what why should I calm down yeah we tried what Josh even better why should I hear you out Josh you've opened with a lie claiming that I misrepresent how involved I am with my daughter I haven't seen my daughter in years and Josh you know you're lying you were personal friends with me Josh you were personal friends with me the last time I saw my daughter and you sent me messages saying how meaningful it was the video I sent back from Germany I went to Germany and went to France to see my daughter and you wrote to me personally you said how moving it was to see the video footage of me playing with my daughter you wrote that to me you you are living a lie on many different levels you're Josh you're pretending to be someone you're not Josh Josh you Josh did you or did you not Josh I'm not insecure Josh I'm not insecure I'm mortified I disapprove of what you're doing everyone would love to be their own princess you don't get to baby Josh not really I mean why would I want to hear your opinion about my ex-wife and my daughter of all topics you've already done an incredibly bad job of responding to what's actually on my youtube channel but okay let's let's hear you make an ass of yourself yet again after your brilliant insight into my relationship with Giggy well first that's the line is she's your ex-wife she's still your wife that's kind of fine judge you want me to reply or not notify or not you think I'm lying by referring to someone as my ex-wife who I have been legally separated from for three plus years like what do you want me to refer to as my current wife would that would that be more accurate to you I haven't seen her or slept with her in years we've been separated and we filed for divorce and the paperwork's incredible so you think ex-wife is a lie you think someone who separated referring to the woman they've been separated from for years as they're actually you think that's a lie and you think it would be more honest if I went around calling her my wife that's what you think ex-wife is like disingenuous in terms of legal sense oh no you said it was a lie Josh you said that's a lie okay Josh so Josh you know what Josh I'd like to apologize you seeing as you've been so good at posing I'd like to apologize to you for referring to the woman I've been separated from for years as my ex-wife I really see how compared to the level of dishonest that you engage in the internet that you'd really be offended by that Josh I see you're very sensitive about truth and honesty when it's convenient for you so he made the claims you spend most of your time sitting in another room have nothing to do with being a parent and while reading books him yeah and um she said one thing that was very disturbing about your behavior was that you'd spend a lot of time practicing how your emotions look in front of a mirror interpret the emotions that came across so that people would understand I mean German said oh yeah these are all lies and Josh you know you've got in touch with somebody who was you know obviously in a disturbed in mourning state and also somebody who engaged in an active campaign trying to defame me across YouTube you know my ex-wife as you probably know got in touch with vegan cheetah she got in touch with Joe vegan and she got in touch with other youtubers I'm forgetting some of their names now and this has been documented and she was just out to say you know the worst thing she could make up about me and that's very sad and we just talked to her last night you know I think she's now trying to turn over more positive leaves but you know this is situation where Josh I think it should be pretty obvious to you even just looking at the context that you're being lied to by someone who has no other reason to get in touch with you like what do you think her motivations were you've started what your motivations won't talk to her but what do you think her motivations weren't talking to you I don't I was done Josh I don't want to know I'm just telling you something might do so you were saying that I shouldn't trust her because she's got motivations but all your motivation pure Josh of just you Josh I haven't said anything like that I just answered your question no no it's not Josh you could rewind and listen back later Josh I didn't use the words pure or impure or anything like that Josh I gave you a very factual account of the fact that my wife got in touch with a number of youtubers and it turns out you're one of them and yes what you were told were lies and if you know anything about that context it's not really surprising that their lives so that one Josh that's not insecure to you because I mean it seems like your analysis of everything is that on the one hand I'm insecure and they'll end up dominating and grooming people because you know what the truth is Josh I'm grooming you I'm grooming you right now to take over my youtube channel that's the future I have plant you Josh step by step you will be a future voice on a ballast yell that's my secret planner Josh step bye-bye delicate steps it means you're being you're being groomed then you don't even know it you know why because you're too insecure because you're too insecure I'm talking to you Josh you're the dynamic between Melissa and yourself is very similar to the takings videos Thanks okay our next question you were talking about net good earlier and you're saying I'd agree with you that um Rhys probably had let you've done less good then he's done more bad than good basically I'd agree with you on that um hang on I'd encourage you to target yeah why don't you talk a little judge why do you talk about your own past relationship wouldn't though because there was a time when you really believed and then you lost faith you know yeah but you were saying you want to talk about person yourself you could talk about that I had zero relationship a dream idea if any comments I left the Hadees videos were I mean just it's like enemy of enemies not necessarily a friend you know that's the assumption you seem to be making there Bo I like with Gary Yourofsky you're saying he you would argue that he has done less good than he's done bad you the same question it's like overall is it to evaluate it the same way turning the criticism to yourself do you think you've done more good or more bad in terms of your divisive ness of the movement and your creases and correctly it's been more useful than then it's done harm well let's let's respond to the word divisive is it divisive to talk about the ethics of castrating dogs no I really want no no no I hope in Josh I'm not I'm not I'm not asking about whether you grow I'm just talking with the nature of divisiveness now you know during a writer himself says that he's polarizing which really means about the same thing as divisive here you know now if you ask me is but look I'm answering your question if you ask me is it divisive to take a strong stand about castration of dogs domestication animals I would say yes it's the but if you ask me is it a bad thing or is that a meaningless debate to have or is that dividing people for no good reason or having a bad effect I would I would say no this is a really meaningful conversation AB you know etc etc so no this is a really meaningful set of questions at the moment now likewise any of the book review videos I did you could look at any of the negative book reviews so it's a very very negative book review of will Kim Lucas book which is on the citizen in citizenship approach animal-rights and you know it's a really harsh I did in two parts that it one that's polite and one that's really harsh so is that divisive I think book reviews are really important for what's going on in veganism right now and if it's divisive its divisive about really meaningful and important issues now by contrast your campaign against me was divisive you're leaving hate comments against a natural vegan you're telling lies and slanders if you do is divisive and it's not about meaningful issues in those ways not at all I can't say that about you so I think that certain types of debates are going to be divisive and I completely accept that and I think some things are worth debating and not others now you know are some of the issues that are raised on my channel silly yes you know vegan Ava made a ridiculous t-shirt in Thailand and we all have to laugh at that I remember that now but if you ask me is that video divisive I would I would say no not really I think that was just laughing at something that's silly and you do a lot of laughing and stuff that's silly to and I think that's I think that's part of the joy of YouTube I want to I want to give you a compliment ear when I first discovered your podcasts what I loved about it was that you were treating people like celebrities and to me they were celebrities you know I mean it was like I felt like a Cena government no it is I think no it's not no to me to me when I first discovered your your podcast you had like an interview with Abdullah the guy from the glucose Network and back then he had only like 500 viewers he was a really small YouTube channel but whoa Wow here's an interview with these like obscure characters that I know and the people who were really following veganism knew you know being interview to say to me that was thrilling there's enough of a demi-monde there's enough going on in veganism that you can kind of have entertainment the news and you know this kind of stuff with the veganism so to meet your channel was this was this you know kind of bright and interesting thing in that context so likewise you know some of the stuff I have a laugh at like vegan Ava made this ridiculous t-shirt I don't think that's divisive and I don't think it's harmful to the Future the movement so you know and now again you can ask yourself that question whether or not you've been divisive about substantive issues or if you've been lying inside of you and you can obviously look at people like durianrider who are in their own terms also divisive and look at what the issues are and I think you know even you would say some of the issues during writers engaged in you can give them credit for and a lot of others you can ya know right so on to actually answer the question is a non-political roundabout way do you think you've done more naked or all in that bag I don't believe either I don't think I've done good or bad I'm just being honest you know it's study politics and then I'm surprised no I'm directly answer your question I don't believe that having a YouTube channel talking about my life and doing book reviews I don't think that's doing good or doing that and I think you may be stuck in a delusion where you're losing touch with the difference between the digital demi-monde and the real world I mean in the real world I teach students at a university you can ask me if I'm doing Goodridge embed in the real world like the humanitarian work in Laos that's a real discussion they did the humanitarian work do more good or more harm but no having a YouTube channel is like having a conversation in a coffee shop and you've heard me say that many times on my youtube channel I know is saying that already two years ago and I think you're really engaging in a kind of megalomaniac delusion big rev if you think that what you're doing is really doing harm or good in that sense because the reality of what we're doing you know is really like a bunch of people sitting down in the coffee shop and have a conversation and sometimes we talk about how ridiculous vegan avis t-shirt is and sometimes we talk about real issues of political philosophy and organization in the future the movement and my channel is says as both I think you reading mischaracterizes my podcast say that I interview people like celebrities I'd say I I'd say don't I start objectively the obvious that it's a conversational style between people just call up and forget to listen in on a conversation it's not really mean to startle you think this is conversational style what you can do anything I'm not talking about this I mean I wanted it to be an interview I've said like let's have a conversation you got what I want that's not what I wanted rev you never asked me what I wanted you never asked me what I wanted to work for another one of us that's not what I wanted well I'm gonna ask you want to ask me nails God you want ask me now what I wanted because I'll tell you Benjamin what would you like the format of this to be you know my own mother hasn't called me Benjamin for like what's about 2001 power right would you say you use some of her critical theory from our books in the way you implement Josh I'm going to answer the question you asked I don't know 30 seconds ago Josh what I wanted was to talk about the future of the movement and I wanted to give you a chance to do something positive because you've done so much dirt in the past you've done so much negative you it's in your opinion - Josh you're not proud of what you did I'm not sure is good Josh Siletz Josh look I start answering you say I interrupt you a lot on your roofing Josh when you look back at all these things you said to unnatural vegan and to me and the things you said supporting durianrider and all the lies you told and all the cruel you know just cruel things you've written on the Internet to hurt the feelings of your fellow vegans I know you also write a lot of cool things there at the village of meat-eaters I know that's different genre of your writing but where you're really writing things just to hurt people when you look back on that in the last two years how do you feel about it how do you think feel about now so I don't underst you asked me how do i you're kind of alluding to the idea that I must feel a certain way about what I've done right it's a totally open question I'm asking you when you look back at the last two years and all the things you've said to hurt other vegans including myself including a natural vegan including many other examples I can give not to hurt meat-eaters because I know you also write in that genre when you look back at that last year's how do you feel about it why don't you talk about that I mean that's such a double bond that question you're kind of making an assumption it's not a double buying Josh but we both know what you've been writing we both know what you've been doing I'm not here to dither over that when you look back at how you spent all that time in two years and you know you've heard people's feelings and you know you've written really intentionally in order her if it was including mine you know you were writing to hurt my feelings and to blacken my character and offend me when you look back at that at last year's how do you feel that it you're evading the question you sound you sound really insecure Josh I've got to tell you I haven't been insecure answer patients you sound really insecure right now and this is the third time I'm answering the question you've accused me of dodging questions but man how come I'm starting to kill anyone let me talk okay you have some long silence is there where you were being about to talk and now again I'm going to put down this mic and I'm going to invite you to answer that question I like to think sometimes before I just spout things out okay so first of all I'm going to be clear about the question you're claiming I've said hurtful things I would agree that I've I've put our criticisms kind of no different into unity and I think there is a real need in though what's become like especially with YouTube with the numbers are so like it's not like a video you know that you've got like sub counts view counts like income from it there's a lot of things to turn a career in vegan active into a pyramid scheme and I think it's good to sometimes call out the people where there you guys are getting too big at the top and I expect the same in return so I wouldn't say I'm a hypocrite for that and I'd say it's probably kept people in check like a little bit how you feel done all right okay so yeah I'd say in terms of things that I've written to a natural vegan yeah very accurate that's how I would talk to in a coffee shop especially example I take Joe best I definitely uh apologize because I was actually good to judge my Vincent when there was a witch hunter that in which you partly that yourself yeah did anyone I've never let me says I've never deleted any of the videos about your best all of them are still up he's never asked me to delete them I've talked to Joe best me good my videos of Oh Joe vest are not witch hunting I said in a very magnanimous way I gave him good advice I gave him a vise about living in Thailand about making friends I gave him advice that was sincere based on my own experience living in Thailand but none of it was leading a witch hunt none of it was accusatory none of it was the fam'ly tori and none of it was I mean there's there's nothing for me to go back and regret or delete I didn't I didn't join in the witch hunt at all I didn't believe the lies were told about him and I didn't make any allegations against him that are false or anything the kind but I gave him advice that I myself have followed I told him if you want to build a niche for yourself in the vegan movement now do something positive for example writing a children's story book that was the video I made and I've never written a children's story book myself I told him he should think about writing a story book and Thai so whether or not that's good advice that's advice I've taken myself I was living in China I wrote a story book in Chinese I said you're living in Thailand you can write a story Thai so Josh even this year mischaracterizing you've now just said that you think you're a critic no different for myself I think the difference between our criticism is obvious for anyone who really is looking at primary sources but it seems to me you're pretty deep in delusion about the nature of both your criticism and mine you've just said I led a witch-hunt against your best and it's very untrue but you have also just said that you regretted what you say so that's interesting so we didn't hear that so I wouldn't ask like you want me to give a blank you say in the knowledge that some things are the great apologize for other things that I have and I still stand by it and I do believe that this platform of debate is like I turned into a bit more of an art form that people want to sit and watch as in failing you know and there is an element of like glad interesting really probably really so you're pulling like a thousand views now man for video right oh well you you just know it's not you just said you turned it into art form that people want to want to see and Josh I I wouldn't agree with that I think you've utterly failed to turn in to our front view I see your views on a video that's a top ten video my purpose for doing that is to bring a community together you don't really there is a community you stay about every angle I'm from there Josh I'm just in shower I'm just responding which said Josh so your feeling is in the last two years I asked you about hurting the feelings of other vegans and you feel good about it because you think you made it into an art form that entertains other people you know well said that to me vegan cheetah that's exactly the justification vegan cheetah offers I'd agree to some degree on that like he has drawn a lot of non vegans and just rude like sensationalizing the fact the cheese sandwich and just by telling lies about people's personal lives just by telling lies about my sex life just like you repeating lies about my personal life my divorce my wife my kid and you think is nothing wrong with that okay I understand so you and cheetah are on the same level I understand specific in regards to you specifically what have I lied about Josh Carlos like every morning you're gonna create like a parent-child relationship I repeat the same way namely why do you feel need to give Josh star you sound really insecure Josh you seemed really insecure right now I just said your name and your response was that I'm trying to create a parent-child relationship that doesn't say only secure to you does that insecure to you Josh something you asked me why did I go to Chiangmai why don't you answer the same question why did you go to Chiangmai cuz I don't remember you having any great humanitarian motives when you went to Chiangmai we both know a lot about what upon your HMO you can say the same about London I've just tried to follow and document the vision seen as it grows in different areas and I went to China and I realized it was for the plate people taking Instagram pictures and calling activism but like I wanted to go there rather than just go on hearsay to like understand where the movements like almost on a journalistic level to have the experience rather than just talk the web being TVs he starts imitating new saying permanent vacation blah blah blah and then he's currently under parole where he can't even like leave the state experiences things so it's all secondhand information I wanted to go there for myself and see how fake it was and it was probably faker than you even made out because I you know I witnessed people clicking on their own adverts to like all day just to bring in revenue for to live their permanent vacation lifestyle I got more the firsthand experience and authority on why it was sheer and you speculating about so you so you you see the important role the critic within the movement a you see it now you see it when it's used with the criticism critic with experience and I definitely I think criticizing with experience is really important like you've obviously come from a political background and you've gone on some marches have held some banners you want to call that experience I mean thanks Josh thanks well done eyes also coming to says that so it's I'm trying to have like a sincere conversation you want to keep being sarcastic and say my name over peers it's quite disingenuous I think Josh of the two of us who's been disingenuous here come on I'm answering all your questions okay Josh you haven't answered my question some of them you said I'm not allowed to talk about and you would talk over me I when it comes to your wife or the Holocaust I'm not allowed to discuss my opinion because you just discredit before you've even heard me and tell me online before I've even made a point so that seems kind of weird and I know you start talking about sega mega systems if that's Reverend I grew up with a sega mega system what the you on about not why you're talking about unicorns it's just it's all surface treat from you like that a natural whole channel and I see through it I didn't charge Josh you sound real insecure right now I've got to say Josh you sound really insecure what do you feel the need to say my name twice the same sentence let's all behavior okay I mean it is job training let me let me ask you a question where do you think you're going to be in the vegan movement five years from now because you haven't I said five years but whatever you want over there Josh you've just been explaining to me how you feel absolutely no remorse looking back at hurting so many vegan feelings at doing the things you've done the last two years and you've insisted to me that you talk to people in person same ways I've met what I believe because I know people who've known you personally and who were particularly disappointed and will hate you till the day they die because you're such a piece of face to face a person Josh you've managed to whittle down what used to be a big following to the last 1000 people Linda let's do it I don't know man dude I don't know what your ambitions are maybe you really want to accomplish something great but Josh I want to give the floor to you what do you see yourself doing the next five years with special reference to the big moon hangar just just to pull upon your question that you're saying like Josh it's a positive question you haven't given me a single question that positive this is an opportunity for you to say something positive put aside your insecurities focus tell me what you're going to do for the vegan movement in the next five years me and all your patreon supporters would love to hear it I mean if you want to talk about numbers and growth through like correct valuation like you've lost a huge amount of subscribers over like the last year - but consistently I've had consist josh Josh did you hear the question Josh this is a positive question I'm giving you what do you do your answer you want to talk about my number of subscribers Josh Josh I've given you a positive question Josh maybe you want to stop and take a deep breath Josh your answer can't possibly be my subscriber numbers listen QB 1 that's when I'm talking you want to create lies in the question and then when I trying to book those lives but then when it's the other way around there are no Josh there are no lies and the question I asked my my prior question was how do you feel what we did in the last two years we heard that answer you don't feel any remorse or regret you enjoy hurting other vegans feelings and you feel you've raised it into an art form that entertains people that was your answer okay and now I've asked you okay so that's what happened last two years that's how you feel about it and I've heard from other people going first etc so now looking ahead to the next five years is is that what we have more to look forward to is that what you can do you're gonna keep trying to hurt people's feelings gonna keep phoning up the wrecks wives and trying to spread gossip and slander and innuendo still going to keep doing all the things you're doing here Josh is this the future of the vegan movement is this the future of what you do with your time is this where it's at man so first will you or something else what are you gonna do it next love you son Carter listen so you're trying to say that my top ten video had a thousand views therefore I'm losing influence the top ten video is not me debating anyone well I don't I wanna know what the future Josh I want to know about the next five years and watching the next five years Josh I'm happy to videos to get less views if they help strengthen the community even if that's not what people see in the top ten that serves that purpose I'm not trying to get as many views as possible that's not lame so Keith for you to use those kind of videos as an example of what we're talking about is it's not just incorrect thank you that's not what I'm talking about Josh completely agree that's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about the future of the movement I'm talking about next five years yeah I just wanted to address what you said wrong in the question before I address the question right which I think it's fair enough you've said you don't even want to hear the questions when you think they wrong the next five years what I see is there's going to be following the the Gandhi quote or like is quite with abandon I'm not I've talked about Gandhi because you said I have read three books even though I've read more than three books but you keep stating I haven't because you can let me answer the question is this whole paradigm that like it gets broken Earthlings it's like regular and legal movement is you know like they know you be more Q they fight you win I think we can see that like my style as the movement develops between ignoring being mock has to develop as the move away so the way I see is when they're ignoring this we I do have to be kind of rude I have to be entertaining in order to stop like trolling use of fair term I'm trying but I'm not doing it to bring people down I'm trying to get their attention so it's a different kind of art form of trolling I prefer to people is God willing because there's a sanctuary behind me I'm trying to protect it's not just for the sake of bringing others down for the sake of it as we move into the phase where we get mocked we have to talk like we have to talk with a much classy in a stance where it's not just name-calling and trying to be a bad noise of movement yes they have to answer things in a way that seems reasonable once we've got the line light on ourselves and then when they fight us I think they're in a position where instead of fighting back we should be shaming ourselves so isn't there no resistance from the fight and I'm trying to play all three of those roles where people are at different stages and as we move through it moving so my techniques are going to change and they are changing I've definitely gone from like a troll on Twitter who's just trying to get through to millions of people just so they've got the word vegan and ahead whether it's good or bad I don't care it's just publicity for the vegan movement is not I don't care whether they hate you I just want them to know what the word is and what it means and then off the back of that I didn't want to make it reputable so it's like or maybe veganism isn't about being as they try and mockers like and we're moving into that phase a lot now as like vegan gains ask yourself everyone started give the debate where instead of it being called out videos it's a conversation and then I think finally the work we have to do on ourselves when we show you our selves so the things we've done wrong allows for an open conversation that stops the resistance of a fight so that other people are comfortable to do that too I've really structured that and I'm going to keep being flexible with my approach as Moodle grows hey Josh thank you for your time yeah