A Conversation: Plantriotic, Izzy Davis & Durianrider's Long Shadow.

Banas yen just for the audio sync you
probably would notice about me but I had ceramics in my family so my great my great aunt was a courier ceramicist and as you know that's unusual where that's the only thing she did you know like 24/7 for 50 years of her life whistling yeah she's she's a weird so in Toronto and it was actually quite close to the kind of the last home I was in with my parents obviously we moved to a few different houses so even though she was my great-aunt we were unusually close to her like I have brothers and sisters I've never met they're my brothers but we know but there are other issues my great-aunt but we actually had a meaningful relationship and I thought it was meaningful it's the way so you'll know the significance she did salt glaze so glazed ceramics yeah that's right so you know and that's the thing where she depth she build the urn the build sorry build the whole environment you do know build the kiln right and then it would right right right and the kiln gets destroyed in the process like you use it a certain number of times then you rebuild it then you start again with the new kiln see that was that was a thing you know my father's comment was that she was really great at these at the surface effects at the color and aesthetic but that structure and form was not really her strong suit so I think he probably had a point [Music] [Music] well I assume so incredibly mom you mentioned being in university I assume what you studied University was unrelated to pottery that the pottery thing you've been doing since 14 and then your academic studies are armored [Music] cuz I wanted to go travel I grew up in Los Angeles my whole life really academic and pretty challenging academic competitive clearly from elementary school all the way to high school and this is not exactly my vibe I'm more into travel and art and things like that so I decided to go into art school but I wanted to take a year off before starting and my life's just transformed in my interest so much during that year that I realized actually didn't want to go study ceramics full-time so I ended up transferring to Colorado College the small liberal arts school in Colorado Springs great but you get myself for me I mean I'm interested in meeting all kinds of vegans but that makes me really hopeful you can be an important voice in veganism in the future you know with that kind of Education the ceramics is great you know especially you know Ernie the great thing with slightly ceramics is basically that you're earning a living in a really ethically positive way because you know like I've done so many jobs people see my resume look ID humanitarian work in Cambodia you know and it's like that sounds really positive I did you give audio but I can start talking through the corruption and the conflict of interest like all the morally murky stuff in that workplace and that line of work it's like you know something like ceramics I mean unless you're killing people to get clay I mean clay is is easy to ethically source clay [Laughter] is probably the impact to your health it's early it's pretty dangerous on glazes are full of silicon particles and minerals that are really unhealthy so if you go to any like professional ceramic studios they will have specific rooms for certain chemicals for glazed in you have to wear masks and most full time ceramicist right I am cancer related lung issues from inhaling oil with the particles and stuff like that which is unfortunate but there are ways that you can be mindful of that like nowadays there's lots of vacuums and ceramic studios that are constantly pulling in like materials but old-school Potter's they all died early of like water related dishes because it's pretty dangerous material and especially back then yes yeah and the colors to the coloring I assume probably all of it is basically toxic but I wonder if that's what my great-aunt you know she formed like a union of potters and they got their own space they took over a factory and that might have been one of the considerations so but she lived oh and all of them actually all the potters in that they lived past 90 in a note at no health problems but they set up their own yeah well no but this this was the interesting that's why I mention it so they were a group of just five they were all female potters and they were the same age and they all kind of ethnically similar though kind of looked similar frankly we saw the five of them San Diego they all hated each other each one of them thought the others their work was garbage it's just a typical thing with human nature it's like you might think wow this is a really positive workspace no they're all sitting there with luggage now you don't know you you think you know salt glaze only I know salt right right that that competitor I'm not a sports guy I lift weights to stay in shape but you know people say that about uh sorry that the famous famous basketball player from the Chicago Bulls Michael Jordan you know Michael Jordan the real Michael Jordan which is now much talked about that he was just this unbelievably cruel vicious kind of son of a [ __ ] who hated everyone he played against hated all the other members of his own team and this is kind of covered up for the sake of you know doing product endorsements Botero everyone who work with him said no you have no idea how vicious this guy was but that for him was well I keep telling debo I'm not a nice guy but we'll see we'll see yeah all right I saw you at her you have a trailer for on the on the bike so that's white yeah that's quite noisy I've done long-distance cycling to back when I was in Thailand I did over 100 kilometres a day I do like 115 thereabouts so you know long distance but not crazy long distance you gotta turn this no I wouldn't do that I can remember sometimes when I was on the bike to save weight I throw my own clothing in the garbage like the bike trip would start with 10 t-shirts and it would end with 6 t-shirts got a few holes in it cycling gets you into yeah anyway a lot of people forget that about me too that like I used to say that whenever I was making the videos criticising durianrider I'd be like you know during writer and I have a lot of things in common well you know we both used to do long-distance cycling in Thailand and whatever you we're not we're not sailing look last thing about about baking you know my own future career path is actually about about this kind of hands-on a thing you're doing ceramics my university degree is not related to my first Universe degrees in political science so actually not that different and I did take classes in ecology I was very much interested in politics because you when I did that but my plan has become a baker so I'm enrolled with my girlfriend Melissa we're going to bake College we're gonna do you know the whole range show bread and pastry and everything and we're gonna see if I can use baking as a platform for positive direction yeah you know just going to the end of the but in the short term yeah I rise to the southern tip of Baja which I'll be there about three weeks and then you take a ferry directly east over to the mainland Mexico salon and then from there you know connect with America and can keep going from there yeah so I you know I pretty radically changed my lifestyle I was doing these bike tours in college I don't know if you're interested in this I used to do long distance cycling so you know it is interesting right [Music] I suppose across the United States I had no experience recycling I was a vegetarian at the time I was an 18 year old vegetarian kid no cycling no losses a low travelling experience but I just heard about people doing long distance bike tours and I grew up in LA my parents did nothing outdoors I lived a very city life and I was like I want to see this whole country and see the places that I've never been so my friend and I we took a train with our bikes to Virginia Beach from LA and we biked over 80 days back to LA and that just changed my life open my mind to traveling to cycling I fell in love with it I did a few different things that year I volunteered at an orangutan orphanage in Borneo Indonesia I did some solo backpacking in the Sierras actually worked for a Potter in LA for a period of time and I fell in love with Vice boring so during the summers in college I would take little trips like when I was in Thailand after the bike festival and when if he came back home me and my friends we bites from Chiang Mai Singapore over 40 days and if I sell my bike touring and I obviously started my youtube channel my second year of college with the intention the whole time and maybe this'll disappoint you because I know you are in some vegans kind of be in the academic sphere but I don't have a future and be an environmental law that's I just know what was what interests me I really want to try to just inspire people through making wild entertaining videos and I'm also travelling in places where people are not exposed to the concepts of sustainability and veganism if you can think about it on a bike store you have to go to every single small little town and so that's another way that I like to advocate for the things that my belief is business but after graduating college you know I I moved back to the Bay Area why Lizzie and I were still dating we broke up a few months later and then I decided I really wanted to try to make my full-time thing by touring making tons of YouTube videos and trying to get supported by my viewer in to follow me because as you know kind of views that I did I made like a hundred three hundred dollars month YouTube but thanks to patreon through small donations as people you know all over the world who are pledging one two three dollars a month and you know it's been like a year now of full-time traveling off of making videos and my life is so simple I don't have a card payment I don't have a rent and they're really only paying for food for Maggie and I and you know we sleep outside most of the time so I can make it work and I really intend to continue biking like this for a number of years and it's a different style of bike touring you know you meet a lot of people bike touring or putting out a hundred kilometers a day and they're driven to Hong Kong and that's cool because most people have to go back to their jobs but I'm making this my like semi permanent light so we keep it mellow on the bike we bike for a few days at a time takes a couple of weeks or months off like I'm really just traveling trying to learn about the cultures my Spanish has gotten a little much better I you know I'm going to become fluent in Spanish for sure within the next year or two and I love it it's such a rewarding lifestyle talk be hard and there's certain sacrifices but I am enjoying it so much and I've been on the bike now nine months consistently and as long as the big rig don't hit me on the road I'll keep doing it III can think of the sexes the sacrifice is already not a lot of sex not a lot of showers not a lot of sleeping on flat surfaces but dogs a dog man the end of the day [Music] one of my subscribers here in a ballast y'all can hunt you down man intersect with you somewhere in southern Mexico yeah hey look just just my sling you said in passing there you said that I'm into supporting you know youtubers kind of being in academia you know I have many many videos talking about how awful academia is how negative my experience is that it's corrupt and terrible and awful most of the time and there are exceptions you can meet people at a positive experience University but they're there they're few and far between in my generation I'd say so it's it's not really that I'm Pro academia and you know even the decision to bake bread for a living it's not a conventional academic decision or even the decisions in might even the decisions in my past like going to Cambodia the new humanitarian work and stuff it's not you know it's not an academic path it's not leading me back that way or what have you but school sound is fine no problem at all you've been totally fun so far ago anyway you know the the thing is in the context of talking to durianrider specifically I was talking you know about people and two people who had dropped out of high school because of during writers advice in some other cases they dropped out of college and they were bragging about it you know they said oh wow this guy you know part of his message was hate your parents part of his message was drop out of school part of his message was that it was really easy to just start earning money on YouTube which a lot of people went for so this was an intoxicating combination right sure so in that in that context I'm I seem like the guy who's saying hey kid staying in school which there's some there's some truth to but you know it's it's not like it's not like I'd say in a simple way like getting a PhD is better than working in pottery you know I pottery as you said it's a really ethically positive field that's one of the reasons like if my daughter told me she wanted to go into ceramics that probably the first I'd say you know it's one of the few really ethically positive jobs you can get whereas you know a lot of work you know it's the reality is if someone feels that in their heart like for me throughout my college I got so much more out of my university experience than just the academics I did a lot of vegan organizing I learned how to start clothes and you learn so much about social interaction and how to get through a shitty class that is annoying but how to just work hard and get through it College teaches you so much more than just the academic nature of what you're studying but if someone's out there who wants to do something that they can't study in college they really truly do want to be the most famous youtuber in the world and College will hold them back from that then sure you got a listen to your heart but I don't think if you have the opportunity financially to go to college I don't see how that will take you further back I started my youtube channel while I was in college you can do both at the same time and so I say if you have the opportunity to and it doesn't sound terrible to you you should do it but also we do live in the world - got to be honest that you don't have in your nature oh yeah okay hey sorry sorry I just said it's kind of where I stand on the spectrum at the University so look I mean obviously I don't think we have any any great conflict in terms of in terms of durianrider and the the future of the movement did the the connection cut out no no but you know it's been a it's been a really positive conversation at this point you know part of the reason I made the video I did about you that moment was just that I saw that vegan Ava had finally turned against the rain rider and you know just mind well she was a personal favor when you were in Thailand her no do you guys think no yeah but she was one of the kind of closest personal friends Tim several of the people who knew him personally including vegan foot soldier and angry vegan and someone have talked to me at some length about their feelings and so on and for all of them I mean they felt at some stage the same way that you felt because you just said this guy was a friend to you or he was nice to you and and add a certain level of loyalty at some point it's this guy is [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] and during someone who's just so positive like if he was the vegan movement at that time calling her like daddy issues coffee drinker complete fabrications and lies right that made no sense so so I made that video thank you we were only coming near festival because you know we looked up to them in a way because we were insuring and that's how we got into the beading community and I would say during Ryder wasn't that controversial there wasn't as many instances of him having disorderly conduct which I'll bet into my stance on him now which is definitely evolved from when I would make those videos which I'm guessing you didn't think was cowardly correct what I'm saying like dude what the park what's up with that and then when we went to the festival I think that video that I filmed which you referenced I do it man is he talking was one of the first times ever that he is like admitted to the face of someone like hate sorry he specifically said I was ugly and I didn't rant about something I shouldn't have done it that was so from that experience just to keep in mind I'm I probably have a few thousand subscribers at that point yes graduated college during Ryder shoots this video on in Thailand at his festival he shoots this video with Izzy saying I'm sorry so my immediate instinct water should I make sure that make the best of it sure yeah I'm just like you know what I really want to be a youtuber why would I call [ __ ] right now and just say like [ __ ] this dog is terrible just so that I can get that toxic durianrider drama hey so I made a video being pretty big saying maybe not that bad whatever and then you took that as saying hey Jackson you're being cowardly all these people have come out and says if this guy's not judge look at all these lies that he's doing so if you want to continue to say that that was cowardly and you think I'm cowardly at that moment I can own up to that alright I was trying to play nice I didn't wanna make any and I also didn't know all of the information I had never met you I had never we met him and I didn't want to come out with claim because I literally didn't have any claims I had no experience with the guys we're going to Thailand and talking to him a little and how do we know who to trust on the Internet why should I trust you versus someone else or someone else who I'd never met so it's confusing and I didn't want to make a staunch video to say this guy's a terrible guy because of this this and this I just wanted to play nice and I was younger at that time and I can now say and feel free if you have any questions on that like I want to be as transparent and open and get everything out as possible so yeah if you have any questions about by feeling their experiences that I had please ask and after I'm done you know with this little spiel but I would say now making a the most modern contemporary opinion I can say right now is that based on this dude during writers actions on the internet the only kind of person that can attract this much negative energy it's someone that you probably shouldn't trust and it's so obvious like no good person who is telling the truth and only doing good things can be such a polarizing stare it's not possible negative energy attracts negative energy um I also want to say that I think he is completely irrelevant in the big picture the only people that know or care about during Ryder or honestly care about watching this video are people who are within the community I'm not saying that right this videos stupid because people are in this community and this community has changed people's lives it changes my life for the better being vegan getting nutrition cycling fruit improves my life significantly but I think that it's fair to say that anyone that attracts such negative energy and so many people saying bad things about him it definitely has to be a slightly sketchy person who was trying to attract that energy and it's probably live for the purpose I mean he's such an obvious narcissist anyone that makes any claims against him he attacks them so brutally you know we're having this conversation now because there was some negative claims towards me and we can be friends and has an actual reasonable conversation you can't have that kind of conversation I'm guessing with durianrider and that says a lot about him he'll spin everything off and no they're just jealous they're just victims like what are you please no so I guess my stance right now is that do I want to come out and saying this sighs terrible don't visit us guys I'm not going to make those videos because he's they're relevant weren't people that people that are relevant in the vegan community are celebrities people like Moby who are artists and have any people like Kip and he is or making cowspiracy or actually putting out quality information to promote veganism to make this a better world for animals and for people in the environment do I think that during the rider has veganized a lot of people and that the animals are probably stoked about that yes you know we can't defend that but to think that he has a big impact on the vegan world and community now is ridiculous right but at the height and at the height of his fame before he broke up with really before his channel tumbled he said I was a pedophile he said I was a sexual predator and what you just said is that he's not very relevant outside of the vegan community but that is my community that's where I live and work so he he denounced me he denounced me and he defend me in a way that was very powerful and very real impacts of my life inside veganism and outside veganism when I first met my girlfriend so she's on my channel a lot lately if people haven't seen it so ever say it's not like a secret girlfriend when I first met my girlfriend her father and her two brothers googled my name and found all these lies durianrider had told about me another person who was just like a new fan of mine sent me email and then said oh wow I found all this dirt on you this these terrible things you look and there's there's no basis to any of it in terms of the stories he made up of me it's not even a he-said she-said story like where there's my version events and there's the girl's version events there never was girl Julia boar she said openly that she had never met me which is true we never met each other and that I'd never sent her like a flirtatious you know nothing like that ever happens you me and her and the other women were imaginary but you said I mean this is the thing you said you knew he lied and made things up this is your attention you in all your videos you said that like even the more positive videos you said you were like a where the jury writer was crazy it made stuff up it's like well he did he just made up that I had a sex scandal in Quebec where I was just sleeping with like so many vegan women and there was some skill and it's like dude I haven't been to Quebec in years Canada's a really big country from east to west it's like I'm on the west coast of Canada enrolled in university classes I have like this story is it's so obviously false in so many ways and where are these girls who I slept with they believe me if I was getting laid with a bunch of vegans in Quebec they'd be on my youtube-channel those girls would be I'd be doing videos of them I wouldn't I wouldn't be hiding real information but and that is a less trustworthy source at this point and considering that that's really really tough man I can't imagine it wasn't one with a big following was saying lies about pedophilia on the internet about me that would be a terrible traumatic experience and again you are correct which I trust you right now even though I don't know any real information I feel like I have to keep saying that but you know you know let's just give in that you're given that supposing that you're completely honest right I am definitely really sorry that that happens very shortly it is hard lying about this Saturday terrible terrible action and if that is all true I can definitely publicly say that only a monster would had publicly defamed someone like that and and I hope that in the circumstances where I wasn't as criticizing him it's not because I was holding all this back because I was a coward and I was afraid of during Ryder I just didn't know the information and I don't watch all over look but now it's given that I seen everything given his behavior I'm sorry to snoop low like this but having different girlfriends 20 years younger then you just crazy guy that you probably can't trust and I'm really sorry to do that to bandits and I can publicly say that dudes probably pretty wack right so I really don't judge durianrider by his by his private sex well sex life to be honest you to me there are so many other yeah it's it's unseemly you know his relationships with women yeah it yeah but there are all these other red flags of the guy like so when I first talked about this with vegan gains so vegan gains supported me he said during Ryder was wrong and I was right and that was it that was a big deal because bean gains was at that time the single biggest YouTube channel unnatural vegan and a bunch of other girls were but you were there and that was the other thing like vegan gains wasn't there you were in Thailand at that time when it came down so I kind of assumed you and his he knew a little bit more about a was going on was just just that the controversy was such a big deal generally people were gossiping but you know what I mean it was a big deal in the air YouTube channel and help to make sure on the videos because so look so just I just don't want to finish the the point but so when I first talked to being gains one of the questions I asked him was because vegan gains of one of the things this channel does this really criticizes people about fake health information like fake weight loss information fake steroid information and I said why didn't you notice the red flag the durianrider claimed he could cure Crohn's disease so crows diseases are really serious incurable disease and he made all the German writer made these contradictory claims about Crohn's disease and again even if you don't have someone like me criticizing them if you just watch what he's saying it's obvious that he's lying from the inconsistencies in what he's saying like the self contradictory and things that scientifically don't make sense so like for you for you vegan gains for Richard it should be really obvious this this dude is lying you know in a serious way so there's some examples of that that are completely dry like they don't have anything to do with sex but it's like this is a really serious red flag that this is someone he was lying and manipulating to people whose fame is based on on something negative and then on the other hand again this is the side I would have thought you'd know about like my interaction with durianrider so he didn't just accuse me of being a pedophile and a sexual predator he said he was gonna have a gang of people beat me up he said he was gonna have people stab me in Chiangmai repeatedly and I had to go back to Chiangmai for the court case later now already that makes one side of the conversation a little bit less credible than the other because I haven't said anything like that right like who's lying here who's threatening to have someone beaten up or stabbed but some right that's the case you'll make it right you find that you're saying is completely a mind of life again if he's fabricating all this the whole thing is again she what well I'm just saying it's not credible it's not like you'd watch you're saying but anyway so when he was he demanded to see my criminal record and I was just about to start a job in China so I actually had my criminal record check with me like normally I wouldn't I just had all like here you go but I did because I was starting a new job and for that job you it was a job in the university as a teacher you needed to have a criminal record check to do that kind of job in China so he's like oh well look it's a it's a funny coincidence my passport here's my criminal record check I sent it to him and he responds and by the way I was always willing to talk to him I was willing to meet in person I said look if you want to meet in a coffee shop we do that and I said if you actually want to kick my ass we can meet at a boxing ring or something like I don't care but like you want to talk to gonna sell this I'll meet with you and I said if you want to meet on a street corner we can do that too like you know I don't care and he completely wimped out by the way he lost his support that scene this nothing all the lies he was thrown at them he also told all these lies about being a tough guy that he'd been to prison that he was such a tough guy he used to really play that role which again makes his side of the story less credible and like for someone like you also if you're just paying attention that's like there's a lot of things that don't add up okay distance but the point was so he demanded it's totally unreasonable look if I said to you right now show me your criminal record like it's just unreasonable but I actually did it I was like okay here's my criminal record here's my passport and he immediately wrote back and made statements on the internet and in videos and and on tumblr saying that my my passport was fake and that my criminal record check was so that's how he responds to this like if you give him an inch he just he just tries to raise the stakes of the conflict that slike that's how the confluent like obviously I could talk I could talk for an hour but all the other crazy shitty it but every so it's like so I'm here being reasonable like I'm actually willing to talk this this through and dude so I just say I gave you the example of my girlfriend's dad and her brothers like this stuff impacted my life it's impacted employers I'm hiring for jobs right right so that's do you think that's the game we play right yeah it's cool it's a long time it's a long time for you to ignore your dog it's reasonable she'd want a job you know we are we the world is not black and white durianrider is loves animals he wants to help animals during our to look to help people because I've seen him help people with which he claims about all the time you know those are positive qualities that no one could argue as those are positive qualities and then he also has really really negative qualities but clearly the negative qualities that he's chosen to commit are they're so far beyond the negative that I would have as also do something that's what you say because people are complicated but even with the complications of the human being a good person doesn't make the sanatory comments accusing someone of a disgusting illegal activity just because the program criticizing their nutritional ideology let me ask you a question why what did you start criticizing like this questioning well so I can tell you the the Crohn's disease thing was one turning point where I made videos pointing out that specific health claims he made were wrong and a lot of people respond to that so no like his fans were asking about that because that was something he the skinniest and everything you should listen to him you question that and then he comes out with these accusations like if you get this we put it all together that's just someone who's trying to beat down to a pulp anyone that argues with him you know you put out a video maybe questioning my behavior and now we're having a logical conclusion people react to things if I don't make the Phantom asourian lying claim because I don't want to hurt anyone I want the truth to be exposed and it's pretty pretty clear they don't really like the ability narcissistic behavior well I mean look anyone can be vegan not anyone can be a leader in the vegan movement you know what I mean like I'm just saying I'm not gonna take it away during rider is a real vegan you know I call some people Fabian's I've had I've had conflicts with other vegans where I said to them honestly I think durianrider is a better person than you because I know at least he sincerely cares but x y&z you know like some people I think are faked vegans that are absolutely terrible for the movement however someone like Jerry Reiter can't be in a position of authority he abuses that authority he can't be in a position of leadership and it's obvious that the little bit of Fame and someone that he had from my perspective it's very clear he's done more harm than good and I'm not the only one we won't go into the other cases there are other individual people he's hurt but again you know the other thing when you mentioned like when you kind of asked in a vague way why did they start hating me so intensely the other thing was I did an interview with a former follower of theirs her name was Leah pram so that interview was still on my channel I think it's over an hour long discussion but you know she wasn't heating on during writer and freely but she gained a lot of body fats she dropped at a school she moved to Thailand like you know she changed her whole life because their leadership and you know the conversation is like hey this is pretty weird huh you know but we're not in that conversation we're not you know we're talking about life and it's pretty weird man we don't know but there's a difference between someone who's just like a malicious [ __ ] who's trying to cause [ __ ] versus someone who actually has a mental disorder maybe double personality disorder like and I don't know and I and I have seen an interactive durianrider it seems pretty functional and in society like you know maybe he has a mental disorder or something on the spectrum of some emotional disorder that gets him so angry and heard and maybe he fits this narrative that way he's just such a good guy so if anyone criticizes him is just so unfair because he's been on YouTube first and he's helped more people like maybe dude he's created this narrative in his head I'm the one who stood up that's why people remember me is because I really stood up to it but yeah a lot of people weren't in a position where they could a lot of people are slunk into the shadows via going yeah yeah now you know one of the reasons I'm okay just being open and talking is like I realized and I hope other people watching this will realize that yes during writer can have a significant impact on your life as he had to you which is unfortunate but for the most part don't take people so seriously enduring orders not God like do you know people goodness chill out mellow out but again I did I feel like I can't say that's you because he really has negatively impacted your life so that's not yet in my life why it might have a slightly gentle attitude to it but it synthesizes you I can clearly feel that okay you want to keep on wondering all right talk about some other things I wanted to clear up the easy thing is I don't want any this I guess I just want to hit any little criticism you might have had about me in that video just like okay I but you know I didn't think I was laying a really hard criticism exploring that it was just kind of questioning you know philosophically what's the meaning of saying someone never was a vegan or something you know video and to the sense of truth that I was trying to pull from it is that veganism as you would probably agree versus plant-based is an ethical ideology original thing agree I I am gonna I so I wanted to bring up that maybe people who have lived a plant-based and vegan dietary lifestyle but I'm truly in their heart done it mainly for the nutritional or weight loss surgeries maybe we'll call those people not vegan keep it right did live a vegan lifestyle and the animals don't give a [ __ ] because where it's not being eaten so that's like I always say that I don't care if you're vegan or plant-based as long as you keep doing it because they don't care as long as you're not you can contribute and they're suffering so I'm sure that it was kind of an employment for you sure he definitely wasn't vegan for however two or three years however she was but you know I dated her for a long time yeah I'll say this kind of exclusive information content here I think I just saw a bug bite on my cheek those are getting karma you know when when when we moved to Berkeley and again this is no hasty because is he the passionate smarter woman and she's gonna do the things that she's interested in she is interested in academics and many many other things I am really into animal rights and there was getting people to go ethically vegan so when I was in Berkeley and doing tons of animal rights activism he came to one or two things let's say in a given month when I went to 10 or 15 she never was as into animal rights as I was so in that video I didn't make the claim that sure you know while she did make some animal rights content I heard art probably wasn't as into the animal rights thing as it is for me and many of my vegan friends so maybe she was kind of really plant-based and now as we see she's meeting all kinds of animal products and if you're truly intentional Eraser yes I know goes on in 10 years but I've been six years a vegan now and I cannot imagine every animal processing for the rest of my life but look I think you just didn't I think you didn't I think you didn't flesh it out in that videos as you did here well I think by me look you could make a separate video talking about it because a lot of us have been through that my ex-wife I was married for six years and this is another reason why the dairy martyr thing had such an impact I have a five-year-old daughter at that time she was three years old and I'm in a divorce and custody battle and it's like I've got people on the internet saying I'm a pedophile on a sexual predator it doesn't just impact my employment impacts my divorce in custody situation it's really pretty scary that's one of the reasons why you know it impacted my life but my ex-wife after I split up with her she went back to a non-vegan time so I know I know it's like and my current girlfriend her ex-boyfriend like you know he became vegan because of her and then five minutes after they split up he went back to it so I think we can a lot of people can relate to and I think for the viewers I said the video I think there's a sense of disappointment because people did look up to her I think people did look to her as a future possible leader for veganism like I just be honest I don't give a [ __ ] about the pole-dancing a lot of pole dancers a lot of pole dancers in LA sorry there's no real shortage of that but like oh wow okay here's somebody who's vegan no I'm just saying it is to me it's fundamentally not interesting it doesn't make me interested in what our next video is gonna be whereas okay so you're someone who's doing like biomedical sciences and nutrition in university you're vegan you care about these issues now I'm interested for me that's that's the hook that's what I think makes people or you know interested in the probably I think you know people should share their life and what they're interested in on YouTube and that's the great thing about YouTube you can only watch the videos that you're interested in on a certain well look I do you appreciate that about Channel I've watched a bunch of videos now and I was going to say I think one thing you and I have in common is that we both do just keep it real we do talk about our real life I'm not there's no fiction there's no artifice on my channel and like even in that video right I don't even pretend to be pissed off if I'm not pissed off or something like you could see that in that video maybe I'm not like obviously the video would get more hits if I came on camera and was like Plantronics a sack of [ __ ] up or something but no I'm just you know no but I think there is I think I think there is an important lesson for you to take from it because in that case you know in case the dream writer thing all the cards were on the table and like I say even people who really knew him personally even people who support him like the guy from the glucose network Abdullah Zainab or vegan Ava or foot soldier but even vegan gains vegan gains was friends with during writer and a supporter of human freely all these people even the people had the most to lose by opposing during writer and he really had the most to gain by continuing to be his friend or supporter all of those people the information was there on the table to figure out Wow Hartley's done something really immoral so I just say I think the lesson for you to learn is you've you've got to do that little bit of research you know in this case it would have just been a little bit of good whether you reach out to me or solve what was already out there on the on the net because all that stuff was there to put the pieces together you know and I during either videos because look if someone's trying to start a YouTube channel and thinking about themselves in this situation sometimes you know very neither has bullied certain people it's scary to come out and be against someone who's kind of the king and the original king in this movement and of course you could say it is cowardly if someone's not going to come out and look at all the facts and then talk about it but I'm also going to be sympathetic to people who just don't want to cause that drama and attention to their lives even though it's obviously so important to you because you've unfortunately had to bear a really brutal brunt of that and I'm happy and I can now come out and reinforce my beliefs on this so hopefully try to lessen that it's beating and discomfort and shittiness that's happened to your life sure I'm also sympathetic to people that are scared to make videos about it because they feel like if I go against this bullies this bully's gonna go in beat the [ __ ] out of me online and that's also during rider should think is that really the reputation that he wants that silencing people of how they think in fear that he's going to bully them again that's not a person that you want to look up to you want to look up to people like this you can just have open logical reasonable conversations with you know bully mentality is not a nice thing and I can say that I felt that form of bullying I didn't want to make a video against crazy dude because I didn't want to feel the brunt of it but again I was I understand I did say I think I think the lesson I think the less for you to take from it is what you actually said in your second video that has my name in it where you talk about the situation you kind of say all these bad things about during rider that you know he's a liar you say he's totally discredited himself you said if this is untrue and you know what's untrue if this is untrue during riders totally discredit all right reasons right yeah but you could have known nobody really it was knowable really everyone figured it out except you really you were one of the last people to figure it out because there were so many obvious signs this was this was false but you know you say well if if together it is very clear and there but again even if you just examine his statements the the lies are quite obvious from one side only but you could have reached out to me whatever you know and all the lies he told about the court case one lie led to another of this guy and it was all equally false but you know you said well I know but I know but you did you'll you did me I know but you did make two videos you know taking stimulus you did just think so it's not like you chose not talking you did then one of them one of them is a long video and one of the short but you're saying you did take a stand on this and you were wrong I think if you want to be like I say though but even I think even if you would just looked at the threats of violence he made against me your opinion would have changed like even if you everything else the same we just knew this guy threatened davines stabbed beaten up by again would probably have changed your perspective but looks right so the sensors in the middle of it was just saying um well you did in that video was you said okay if during writers lying and again anyone wants to nose knows that he really is like if during writer's lying then he has no credibility as terrible person and then you say but my personal experience with him is positive I think he's a funny guy the next guy so you know I'm supposed but this is turbid this is my point I think the conclusion you have to make is in life going ahead that's not really a solid basis for that kind of judgment you know with anybody or with anything you can't you can't just say well and a lot of people are in this position with Donald Trump right your current president states he's been in show business for so long there were a lot of people who could say oh well you know he's a nice guy I met him at a party I shook his hand that's not real what we're talking about you know the question about whether or not right okay and I think I think face to face probably Donald Trump is a nice guy to have a conversation with he's funny he's drugged he's relaxed he's been in television for a long time even your whole circle of friends the Donald Trump's hung out with you know six other people who've hung out with Donald Trump and they all say he's a great guy but you know at the end of the day the question is can can poor people get health care yes or no that's so that's that's kind of the question okay great so dude we're coming up to one full hour it's been wonderful talking to you and look I hope honestly dude I think we should put a pin in it now but it's it's been great to argue and I am really genuinely open to cooperating with you in future I also am really passionate about the future of the vegan movement my bicycle riding days are in the past but you know I do also travel I'm going back and forth to France about two weeks from now and so on whether we can actually meet in person or whether we can just exchange useful information about you know vegan events and activism what's happening I am in this long term and you know I whether you settle down eventually in Los Angeles or Portland or wherever you end up but look believe me you know I really am out here trying to recruit talent and contacts for the movement not for my YouTube channel not for my ego okay I really you know oh that's pretty minor but if if there's something positive that can come out of this for the future of the movement that's ultimately what you tube and stay on youtube in the first place [Music] [Music] on substitute and dude it was great talking to you as well I'm really glad it's it sucks about the YouTube world when people just fight back and forth without talking to face-to-face oh I'm really glad that we could come to a logical conclusion and be friends and I'm much I'm much happier about the whole situation so I appreciate you also having me on thank you very much Jackson Foster plant trionic we're going to give you the link just below this video hit him up a bonus Yin