Veganism: Tough Love for a Weak Movement.
16 August 2018 [link youtube]
Co-starring James Aspey. And yeah, if SOMEBODY doesn't donate $1 per month to support this channel on Patreon, all you're gonna hear is more empty platitudes, _à la_ James Aspey. https://www.patreon.com/a_bas_le_ciel/
#vegan #vegans #veganism
Youtube Automatic Transcription
tell me something how do you feel as a
vegan knowing that even if we manage to achieve a 20% decrease in meat consumption if we had a reducer terian uprising you know 20% decrease in demand nothing would change nothing would change except meat would become cheaper and more readily available for all the people who are still buying and eating meat if this is about the animals if this is about ecology or even if this is about public education and outreach fundamentally people become vegan when they discover when they learn that it's the right thing to do and the progress of the vegan movement relies in us asking again and again won't you join us won't you do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do and everyone knows the hinge that's gonna turn on more than anything else is going to be public education and outreach and guess what boycotts they actually don't reach out to or educate anyone the main effect they have is reaffirming our own sense which I would call a delusion of our moral purity this is tough love people I'm not gonna give you a reassuring half truth or a lie like oh yeah good for you by taking palm oil out of your fridge and putting in the garbage you're doing something really positive you're doing the best you can you're not it's really deeply disturbing to instead consider how futile those kinds of gestures are and that direct intervention would take everything you've got to give who's gonna make that commitment the odds are it's not going to be you or if is you it's only going to be the one issue to the exclusion of all others I think a decision made in a supermarket from a couple of thousand miles away still has an impact not many people can divide their time between all the causes they believe in choosing how we spend our money is then easy way to vote what we believe in you're right it's easy it's too easy it's facile it's exactly that easy cop-out you're taking that I'm here to challenge what I want to do isn't easy okay I want to win I want to make a real difference I want to challenge you to think this through and again he says a decision made in a supermarket still has an impact right more than zero impact but now let's question that that can't be the end of the conversation that has to be the beginning of our analysis same with street activism same with boycott based consumer activism something I've said to people now again and again last couple weeks is look I have my own unique contribution to make to the vegan movement and it is not standing in silence wearing a mask now look some people are deaf-mutes some people cannot speak I still would not recommend that they contribute to the movement by standing in silence wearing a mask I think there's probably sign of really said about sign language outreach and you know how someone communicating in sign language would do activism not really my topic for this video but I say to you also if you have the ability to watch this video on YouTube I really think the odds are you also have a unique contribution to make to the future of the movement and it is not standing in silence wearing a mask and it is not just reducing the number of items in your fridge that are linked to a history onic preachy over-the-top post on facebook that told you what you should and should not buy so that you can label yourself a morally good person we have to move past the boycott mentality [Music] a Venice yen remember jay-z had that lyric if you don't like my lyrics you can press fast-forward look guys um a lot of what you get on this channel is tough love for the vegan movement I think you know if you've even just started watching my videos this month it comes from a place of love I really love I really care about the future of the vegan movement and it's happening and in many ways I'm profoundly optimistic about what's happening but it is tough love you're gonna get here not reassuring half-truths and if you don't like it you can close the video you can press stop you can press fast-forward I'd urge you not to because I think I'm raising really important questions that for many of you are gonna have important and somewhat unexpected answers had someone writing in to me following up on the palm oil issue and the question of how we can make a positive difference in this world given where it is we're starting from in the movement in 2018 vegan dreamer wrote in quote the biggest thing with palm oil is we are told about massive reforestation I think she made a typo there she probably meant deforestation orangutan homeless and dying I even met someone who meant to Southeast Asia and saw for self the devastation I see your point and it's a great argument but I also want to do the right thing now look core intentions here are 100% positive I completely recognize that and you'll see what I save my reply what I say my reply is tough love I don't give her a half truth I don't reassure her and I don't sit down and Pat her on the head for having good intentions because good intentions are simply not good enough but we want to have our good impacts and good outcomes what we want is to play to win at the end of this game we don't want to be the losers who had the best of intentions right and that applies to specific case studies and examples like what do you want to do about orangutans and applies to the movement as a whole but before every my reply here just step back for a second and realized I taken on two of the biggest delusions in the vegan movement just within this month two of the most unchallenged deep-seated assumptions about what action and activism and organizing the movement is one of those topics was basically the significance of street protests street theatre street demonstrations including direct action everywhere anonymous for the voiceless cube of truth and I really got to see and also here when I had voice chat with people Skype calls that kind of communication I was really I don't know galvanizing other vegans I was sparking something new a new set of considerations where they were suddenly looking at and re-evaluating how they were using their time and what the real outcomes were in a very significant and meaningful way and it's not on the basis of claiming that there's zero ethicacy to these street protests I was saying to one colleague a guy who has a degree as a lawyer he has a high level of education he has various options for how we can make a difference in ecology in the vegan movement through various means he has better options in his life than standing on the street and screaming at people or holding a sign or just wearing a mask I said to him look this this protest that just took place in Canada in Ottawa Canada called nation rising they put more than a year of planning into this they had support from all of the biggest vegan and animal rights foundations in Canada some of them non vegan but mostly vegan you know vegan and allied organizations ie I've never seen a single photograph or video that shows more than 50 people showing up it looks to me like fewer than 50 people like when I'm counting honestly I can count like 35 people on camera than any one time and I said to him you and me if we had done this if we had put a year of work into this and I think it was more than a year we would now be sitting down and saying to each other wow what a huge waste of potential that was what a huge waste of time and money that was basically we organized fewer than 50 vegans to show up stand in the Sun and get a pep talk get a lecture from James ass be from another vegan about how we should all pat ourselves on the back and feel so great about being vegans it is about treating others the way that you want to be treated it is about extending a circle of compassion to embrace all living bangs and simply it's yeah give it up movement and this is not a cult if it was a cult we'll be the best damn cold ever [Applause] regardless tell the government to change the subsidies when people still want to eat these products of violence and torture and killing we need to educate people we need to encourage people we need to inspire people this should be an inclusive group where everybody feels welcome and supported and that's what I conveyed when we're asking for a compassionate world it's no good just to tell other people to help make it happen we need to walk the path we need a talk with compassion walk with compassion and show how that's done and shred it well so that it's easier for others to follow the world will change because of people like us who have been sitting here for hours in the hot Sun here and what a lot of us already know but just reaffirming what we believed who changed because of people like us sitting here for hours here and what a lot of us already know this this was nothing but vegans it was an act of self congratulation this accomplished nothing and of course we were having this conversation because we were talking about the other things we each of us hopes to accomplish in the last year and what we're hoping to accomplish next year the year ahead may be a two year time frame right these are serious decisions we've got to make and they have huge impacts on people's lives I've had no protracted discussions with several people and they're saying to me oh but the street activism it's so effective like you know we we we reach 300 people it's like guess what I can do a video on YouTube about Game of Thrones I can reach more than 300 people like there up like 300 is not a huge number you so you're telling me 15 people devoted like 30 hours of labor over several weekends and you reached it well let's really think about this let's really talk about what's effective and what you're challenging there as they say I call it a delusion but it's really just I mean it starts off as an unquestioned assumption that the most effective most important form of activism is standing on that Street and testifying right and today what we're dealing with is a similarly deep-seated unchallenged assumption that the way to make a difference in the world is through boycotts is the boycott mentality okay so here we go I replied to this person vegan dreamer quote doing the right thing involves positive action not just negation boycotts reduced consumption and antinatalism are all negative and passive rather than positive and active interventions if you want to help orangutan s-- you have to actually help orangutan that may be tragic and burdensome for you to face up to it is what it is you're not helping casualties of the Syrian civil war by refusing to purchase syrian products the war on the ukraine isn't going to end through a boycott nor through antinatalism the dolphins in the mekong river won't be saved by your buying less of anything really but you can actually help them by doing things as opposed to refusing to buy things get it this is tough love guys I'm not saying this out of contempt for this person or hatred or anger but this person is so deep in this boycott mentality that the only way the primary way or the only way to pursue an advanced social change is through a boycott and when you think of just this broader set of comparisons of examples it is tragic and burdensome it is frankly humiliating it's humiliating to think oh if I care about a human rights issue well do I really care about it and maybe I care about it not to buy something made in Syria when I go to the grocery store I don't know when the last time was you saw a product made in Syria on sale at the grocery store oh maybe I care enough about this to modify my consumer habits just slightly but of course it's humiliating and difficult to face up to the fact that you've got to prioritize these things maybe there are human rights issues within your own country that would be harder and more humiliating for you to deal with indigenous people who have been displaced who are living in poverty here in Canada we have human rights problems in Thunder Bay Ontario that are still ongoing you know what really can you do if you're a Canadian citizen to help people in Syria as opposed to helping people in Thunder Bay and why are you making that choice that can be a very difficult kind of self-examination to get into and you can't help them all you can't do it all you are making choices are you gonna help dolphins in the Mekong River or are you gonna help orangutans if you really help them not passively not negatively but positively and actively it's gonna take everything you've got to give time effort and probably money if you want to set up and get a foundation rolling doing this work or you could do it solo it could be a one-man activist going out helping read news helps if you have a background in veterinary science or something but sure if you want to you can roll up your sleeves you can do humanitarian work alone I met many people who did it in a sense I was a person doing inter trying to do it when I was in Southeast Asia too I didn't have any organization backing me and it was tough and again there's a humiliating question to ask here if this is really what you want to do why is it orangutan in far-off Indonesia why isn't it you know a species in your own backyard sorry assuming you're not watching this video in Indonesia assuming you're living in England Canada Australia anywhere else in the world in your country right now there are species probably endangered species and probably not endangered species that could use your help your time and effort and money to reach out to them and serve them in this direct and active way do you want to do that do you want to make that sacrifice that's time you won't be spending on your own family and in a sense it's time you won't be spending on on the vegan movement proper it's time you won't be spending supporting say a vegan diet abolishing slaughterhouses or think it's humiliating to have to deal with that with the finitude of what you've got to contribute and that's exactly what people don't want to face up that's what the boycott mentality lets you think the boycott mentality lets you think you can make an infinite positive difference in the world by reducing the scope of your incredibly finite consumption here's the next message that was written into me on this Hado rights so economics sanctions are useless question mark now let me just posit for one second so many people would just be intimidated by this kind of statement I find this is especially true in left-wing politics rather than you know conservative or centrist politics just someone throws out an economic claim about capitalism and like that's the end of the conference nobody wants to challenge it that's you know it puts a sort of powerful punctuation into the conversation you know period Oh oh he took a stand on economic sanctions well I'm not so easily intimidated and again this is one of the reasons why I bring tough loves the moon I know other people can't ask these questions and can't broach these answers in the way I can all right I'm not deterred by this you'll see my reply so economics and sanctions are useless he asks sarcastically assuming the population in question aren't idiots hopefully they'll recognize the path of least resistance in a capitalist society a drop in demand does what question mark I think a decision made in a supermarket from a couple of thousand miles away still has an impact pause again keep in mind at what I said over and over again in the critique of street activism I'm not claiming that screaming on the street has zero impact I'm saying when we sit down in all honesty and examine it in comparison to the alternatives whether you're a lawyer or you're a musician I gave a million examples you have to be really skeptical but is this or is this not the most effective option you've got and in most cases I think the answer is no something I've said to people now again and again last couple weeks is look I have my own unique contribution to make to the vegan movement and it is not standing in silence wearing a mask now look at some people are deaf mutes some people cannot speak I still would not recommend that they contribute to the movement by standing in silence wearing a mask I think there's probably Sun you've really said about sign language outreach and you know how someone communicating in sign language would do activism not really my topic for this video but I say to you also if you have of the ability to watch this video on YouTube I really think the odds are you also have a unique contribution to make to the future of the movement and it is not standing in silence wearing a mask and it is not just reducing the number of items in your fridge that are linked to a history onic preachy over-the-top post on Facebook that told you what you should and should not buy so that you can label yourself a morally good person we have to move past the boycott mentality not many people can divide their time between all the causes they believe in choosing how we spend our money is an easy way to vote for what we believe in Oh so you notice implicitly this is affirming what I just said to you in between you're right it's easy it's too easy it's facile it's exactly that easy cop-out you're taking that I'm here to challenge what I want to do isn't easy okay I want to win I want to make a real difference I want to challenge you to think this through and again he says a decision made in a supermarket still has an impact right more than zero impact but now let's question that that can't be the end of the conversation that has to be the beginning of our analysis same with street activism same with boycott based consumer activism quote regarding in a capitalist society a drop in demand does one answer it results in lower prices I formerly studied economics did you tell me something how do you feel as a vegan knowing that even if we manage to achieve a 20% decrease in meat consumption if we had a reduce a Tyrian uprising you know 20% decrease in demand nothing would change nothing would change except meat would become cheaper and more readily available for all the people who are still buying and eating meat whether they're reduce at Ariens or just plain old omnivores how would you feel about that accomplishment how would you feel about the fact that your accomplishment can never compete with even what a mild recession or economic depression does or even sorry currently there's a trade dispute started by Donald Trump that's resulted in a massive decline in demand for beef we can't compete with that through these boycott methods right so there were a lot of pieces of the puzzle missing here and yeah guess what the impact is the impact is lower prices for everyone else yeah I did study economics no I'm not intimidated but that's this kind of you know stereotypical invocation oh here's an economic concept yeah you think you're scoring points and you're not this was a pathetic own-goal all right quote I think a decision made in a supermarket from a couple thousand miles away still has an impact close quote gee do you think that setting up a charity that directly provides veterinary care rescue and relocation of orangutans would have an impact do you think that operating habitat conservation area and perhaps relocating orangutans to that special Park from agricultural and urban areas would have an impact how about preventing hunting or poaching by having men with guns on patrol is that a little bit too abstract for you to picture what kind of impact that might have this is tough love people I'm not gonna give you a reassuring half truth or a lie like oh yeah good for you by taking palm oil out of your fridge and putting in the garbage you're doing something really positive you're doing the best you can you're not it's really deeply disturbing to instead consider how futile those kinds of gestures are and that direct intervention would take everything you've got to give who's gonna make that commitment the odds are it's not going to be you or if is you it's only going to be the one issue to the exclusion of all others quote so economic sanctions are useless question mark close quote I formerly studied political science did you take a look at North Korea take a look at Cuba take a look at the Ukraine conflict do you think a consumer boycott on palm oil could ever have as much of an impact as the history of recent sanctions against North Korea Cuba and Russia do you think it could even have 5% as much impact and what are those impacts you could be 18 years old and you could be 84 I know in either case grow up my claim is not that economic sanctions have zero impact economic sanctions against Cuba and North Korea enforced by the world's greatest Navy with an unlimited budget enforced by American aircraft carriers burning billions of dollars they have a little bit of an impact they have utterly failed to achieve their goals over decades and decades of enforcement but no I would not say economic sanctions on Cuba North Korea have had zero impact I would never say that that would be ridiculous however I would say that if you think vegans boycotting palm oil could ever have an impact even 5% as significant as the u.s. needly blockade of Cuba you are insane and if you make any reasonable analysis of what that impact is either the 100 percent or the five percent situations like know through Cuba I think you'd have to have again a really humbling reevaluation of what you're doing in terms of boycott based activism what you're doing you know short term and long term if this is about the animals if this is about ecology or even if this is about public education and outreach fundamentally people become vegan when they discover when they learn that it's the right thing to do and the progress of the vegan movement relies on us asking again and again won't you join us won't you do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do and everyone knows the hinge that's gonna turn on more and anything else is going to be public education and outreach and guess what boycotts they actually don't reach out to or educate anyone the main effect they have is reaffirming our own sense which I would call a delusion of our moral purity because we've got less and less stuff in our fridge that somebody said on Facebook was dirty and bad and immoral and it lets us turn a blind eye to the tragic reality of what we can and cannot do whether it's for exotic orangutan in far-off Indonesia or bears suffering and dying in our own backyard I got love for the vegan movement I got hope for the future guys if you keep watching this channel I'm gonna keep asking the tough questions about us Yin
vegan knowing that even if we manage to achieve a 20% decrease in meat consumption if we had a reducer terian uprising you know 20% decrease in demand nothing would change nothing would change except meat would become cheaper and more readily available for all the people who are still buying and eating meat if this is about the animals if this is about ecology or even if this is about public education and outreach fundamentally people become vegan when they discover when they learn that it's the right thing to do and the progress of the vegan movement relies in us asking again and again won't you join us won't you do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do and everyone knows the hinge that's gonna turn on more than anything else is going to be public education and outreach and guess what boycotts they actually don't reach out to or educate anyone the main effect they have is reaffirming our own sense which I would call a delusion of our moral purity this is tough love people I'm not gonna give you a reassuring half truth or a lie like oh yeah good for you by taking palm oil out of your fridge and putting in the garbage you're doing something really positive you're doing the best you can you're not it's really deeply disturbing to instead consider how futile those kinds of gestures are and that direct intervention would take everything you've got to give who's gonna make that commitment the odds are it's not going to be you or if is you it's only going to be the one issue to the exclusion of all others I think a decision made in a supermarket from a couple of thousand miles away still has an impact not many people can divide their time between all the causes they believe in choosing how we spend our money is then easy way to vote what we believe in you're right it's easy it's too easy it's facile it's exactly that easy cop-out you're taking that I'm here to challenge what I want to do isn't easy okay I want to win I want to make a real difference I want to challenge you to think this through and again he says a decision made in a supermarket still has an impact right more than zero impact but now let's question that that can't be the end of the conversation that has to be the beginning of our analysis same with street activism same with boycott based consumer activism something I've said to people now again and again last couple weeks is look I have my own unique contribution to make to the vegan movement and it is not standing in silence wearing a mask now look some people are deaf-mutes some people cannot speak I still would not recommend that they contribute to the movement by standing in silence wearing a mask I think there's probably sign of really said about sign language outreach and you know how someone communicating in sign language would do activism not really my topic for this video but I say to you also if you have the ability to watch this video on YouTube I really think the odds are you also have a unique contribution to make to the future of the movement and it is not standing in silence wearing a mask and it is not just reducing the number of items in your fridge that are linked to a history onic preachy over-the-top post on facebook that told you what you should and should not buy so that you can label yourself a morally good person we have to move past the boycott mentality [Music] a Venice yen remember jay-z had that lyric if you don't like my lyrics you can press fast-forward look guys um a lot of what you get on this channel is tough love for the vegan movement I think you know if you've even just started watching my videos this month it comes from a place of love I really love I really care about the future of the vegan movement and it's happening and in many ways I'm profoundly optimistic about what's happening but it is tough love you're gonna get here not reassuring half-truths and if you don't like it you can close the video you can press stop you can press fast-forward I'd urge you not to because I think I'm raising really important questions that for many of you are gonna have important and somewhat unexpected answers had someone writing in to me following up on the palm oil issue and the question of how we can make a positive difference in this world given where it is we're starting from in the movement in 2018 vegan dreamer wrote in quote the biggest thing with palm oil is we are told about massive reforestation I think she made a typo there she probably meant deforestation orangutan homeless and dying I even met someone who meant to Southeast Asia and saw for self the devastation I see your point and it's a great argument but I also want to do the right thing now look core intentions here are 100% positive I completely recognize that and you'll see what I save my reply what I say my reply is tough love I don't give her a half truth I don't reassure her and I don't sit down and Pat her on the head for having good intentions because good intentions are simply not good enough but we want to have our good impacts and good outcomes what we want is to play to win at the end of this game we don't want to be the losers who had the best of intentions right and that applies to specific case studies and examples like what do you want to do about orangutans and applies to the movement as a whole but before every my reply here just step back for a second and realized I taken on two of the biggest delusions in the vegan movement just within this month two of the most unchallenged deep-seated assumptions about what action and activism and organizing the movement is one of those topics was basically the significance of street protests street theatre street demonstrations including direct action everywhere anonymous for the voiceless cube of truth and I really got to see and also here when I had voice chat with people Skype calls that kind of communication I was really I don't know galvanizing other vegans I was sparking something new a new set of considerations where they were suddenly looking at and re-evaluating how they were using their time and what the real outcomes were in a very significant and meaningful way and it's not on the basis of claiming that there's zero ethicacy to these street protests I was saying to one colleague a guy who has a degree as a lawyer he has a high level of education he has various options for how we can make a difference in ecology in the vegan movement through various means he has better options in his life than standing on the street and screaming at people or holding a sign or just wearing a mask I said to him look this this protest that just took place in Canada in Ottawa Canada called nation rising they put more than a year of planning into this they had support from all of the biggest vegan and animal rights foundations in Canada some of them non vegan but mostly vegan you know vegan and allied organizations ie I've never seen a single photograph or video that shows more than 50 people showing up it looks to me like fewer than 50 people like when I'm counting honestly I can count like 35 people on camera than any one time and I said to him you and me if we had done this if we had put a year of work into this and I think it was more than a year we would now be sitting down and saying to each other wow what a huge waste of potential that was what a huge waste of time and money that was basically we organized fewer than 50 vegans to show up stand in the Sun and get a pep talk get a lecture from James ass be from another vegan about how we should all pat ourselves on the back and feel so great about being vegans it is about treating others the way that you want to be treated it is about extending a circle of compassion to embrace all living bangs and simply it's yeah give it up movement and this is not a cult if it was a cult we'll be the best damn cold ever [Applause] regardless tell the government to change the subsidies when people still want to eat these products of violence and torture and killing we need to educate people we need to encourage people we need to inspire people this should be an inclusive group where everybody feels welcome and supported and that's what I conveyed when we're asking for a compassionate world it's no good just to tell other people to help make it happen we need to walk the path we need a talk with compassion walk with compassion and show how that's done and shred it well so that it's easier for others to follow the world will change because of people like us who have been sitting here for hours in the hot Sun here and what a lot of us already know but just reaffirming what we believed who changed because of people like us sitting here for hours here and what a lot of us already know this this was nothing but vegans it was an act of self congratulation this accomplished nothing and of course we were having this conversation because we were talking about the other things we each of us hopes to accomplish in the last year and what we're hoping to accomplish next year the year ahead may be a two year time frame right these are serious decisions we've got to make and they have huge impacts on people's lives I've had no protracted discussions with several people and they're saying to me oh but the street activism it's so effective like you know we we we reach 300 people it's like guess what I can do a video on YouTube about Game of Thrones I can reach more than 300 people like there up like 300 is not a huge number you so you're telling me 15 people devoted like 30 hours of labor over several weekends and you reached it well let's really think about this let's really talk about what's effective and what you're challenging there as they say I call it a delusion but it's really just I mean it starts off as an unquestioned assumption that the most effective most important form of activism is standing on that Street and testifying right and today what we're dealing with is a similarly deep-seated unchallenged assumption that the way to make a difference in the world is through boycotts is the boycott mentality okay so here we go I replied to this person vegan dreamer quote doing the right thing involves positive action not just negation boycotts reduced consumption and antinatalism are all negative and passive rather than positive and active interventions if you want to help orangutan s-- you have to actually help orangutan that may be tragic and burdensome for you to face up to it is what it is you're not helping casualties of the Syrian civil war by refusing to purchase syrian products the war on the ukraine isn't going to end through a boycott nor through antinatalism the dolphins in the mekong river won't be saved by your buying less of anything really but you can actually help them by doing things as opposed to refusing to buy things get it this is tough love guys I'm not saying this out of contempt for this person or hatred or anger but this person is so deep in this boycott mentality that the only way the primary way or the only way to pursue an advanced social change is through a boycott and when you think of just this broader set of comparisons of examples it is tragic and burdensome it is frankly humiliating it's humiliating to think oh if I care about a human rights issue well do I really care about it and maybe I care about it not to buy something made in Syria when I go to the grocery store I don't know when the last time was you saw a product made in Syria on sale at the grocery store oh maybe I care enough about this to modify my consumer habits just slightly but of course it's humiliating and difficult to face up to the fact that you've got to prioritize these things maybe there are human rights issues within your own country that would be harder and more humiliating for you to deal with indigenous people who have been displaced who are living in poverty here in Canada we have human rights problems in Thunder Bay Ontario that are still ongoing you know what really can you do if you're a Canadian citizen to help people in Syria as opposed to helping people in Thunder Bay and why are you making that choice that can be a very difficult kind of self-examination to get into and you can't help them all you can't do it all you are making choices are you gonna help dolphins in the Mekong River or are you gonna help orangutans if you really help them not passively not negatively but positively and actively it's gonna take everything you've got to give time effort and probably money if you want to set up and get a foundation rolling doing this work or you could do it solo it could be a one-man activist going out helping read news helps if you have a background in veterinary science or something but sure if you want to you can roll up your sleeves you can do humanitarian work alone I met many people who did it in a sense I was a person doing inter trying to do it when I was in Southeast Asia too I didn't have any organization backing me and it was tough and again there's a humiliating question to ask here if this is really what you want to do why is it orangutan in far-off Indonesia why isn't it you know a species in your own backyard sorry assuming you're not watching this video in Indonesia assuming you're living in England Canada Australia anywhere else in the world in your country right now there are species probably endangered species and probably not endangered species that could use your help your time and effort and money to reach out to them and serve them in this direct and active way do you want to do that do you want to make that sacrifice that's time you won't be spending on your own family and in a sense it's time you won't be spending on on the vegan movement proper it's time you won't be spending supporting say a vegan diet abolishing slaughterhouses or think it's humiliating to have to deal with that with the finitude of what you've got to contribute and that's exactly what people don't want to face up that's what the boycott mentality lets you think the boycott mentality lets you think you can make an infinite positive difference in the world by reducing the scope of your incredibly finite consumption here's the next message that was written into me on this Hado rights so economics sanctions are useless question mark now let me just posit for one second so many people would just be intimidated by this kind of statement I find this is especially true in left-wing politics rather than you know conservative or centrist politics just someone throws out an economic claim about capitalism and like that's the end of the conference nobody wants to challenge it that's you know it puts a sort of powerful punctuation into the conversation you know period Oh oh he took a stand on economic sanctions well I'm not so easily intimidated and again this is one of the reasons why I bring tough loves the moon I know other people can't ask these questions and can't broach these answers in the way I can all right I'm not deterred by this you'll see my reply so economics and sanctions are useless he asks sarcastically assuming the population in question aren't idiots hopefully they'll recognize the path of least resistance in a capitalist society a drop in demand does what question mark I think a decision made in a supermarket from a couple of thousand miles away still has an impact pause again keep in mind at what I said over and over again in the critique of street activism I'm not claiming that screaming on the street has zero impact I'm saying when we sit down in all honesty and examine it in comparison to the alternatives whether you're a lawyer or you're a musician I gave a million examples you have to be really skeptical but is this or is this not the most effective option you've got and in most cases I think the answer is no something I've said to people now again and again last couple weeks is look I have my own unique contribution to make to the vegan movement and it is not standing in silence wearing a mask now look at some people are deaf mutes some people cannot speak I still would not recommend that they contribute to the movement by standing in silence wearing a mask I think there's probably Sun you've really said about sign language outreach and you know how someone communicating in sign language would do activism not really my topic for this video but I say to you also if you have of the ability to watch this video on YouTube I really think the odds are you also have a unique contribution to make to the future of the movement and it is not standing in silence wearing a mask and it is not just reducing the number of items in your fridge that are linked to a history onic preachy over-the-top post on Facebook that told you what you should and should not buy so that you can label yourself a morally good person we have to move past the boycott mentality not many people can divide their time between all the causes they believe in choosing how we spend our money is an easy way to vote for what we believe in Oh so you notice implicitly this is affirming what I just said to you in between you're right it's easy it's too easy it's facile it's exactly that easy cop-out you're taking that I'm here to challenge what I want to do isn't easy okay I want to win I want to make a real difference I want to challenge you to think this through and again he says a decision made in a supermarket still has an impact right more than zero impact but now let's question that that can't be the end of the conversation that has to be the beginning of our analysis same with street activism same with boycott based consumer activism quote regarding in a capitalist society a drop in demand does one answer it results in lower prices I formerly studied economics did you tell me something how do you feel as a vegan knowing that even if we manage to achieve a 20% decrease in meat consumption if we had a reduce a Tyrian uprising you know 20% decrease in demand nothing would change nothing would change except meat would become cheaper and more readily available for all the people who are still buying and eating meat whether they're reduce at Ariens or just plain old omnivores how would you feel about that accomplishment how would you feel about the fact that your accomplishment can never compete with even what a mild recession or economic depression does or even sorry currently there's a trade dispute started by Donald Trump that's resulted in a massive decline in demand for beef we can't compete with that through these boycott methods right so there were a lot of pieces of the puzzle missing here and yeah guess what the impact is the impact is lower prices for everyone else yeah I did study economics no I'm not intimidated but that's this kind of you know stereotypical invocation oh here's an economic concept yeah you think you're scoring points and you're not this was a pathetic own-goal all right quote I think a decision made in a supermarket from a couple thousand miles away still has an impact close quote gee do you think that setting up a charity that directly provides veterinary care rescue and relocation of orangutans would have an impact do you think that operating habitat conservation area and perhaps relocating orangutans to that special Park from agricultural and urban areas would have an impact how about preventing hunting or poaching by having men with guns on patrol is that a little bit too abstract for you to picture what kind of impact that might have this is tough love people I'm not gonna give you a reassuring half truth or a lie like oh yeah good for you by taking palm oil out of your fridge and putting in the garbage you're doing something really positive you're doing the best you can you're not it's really deeply disturbing to instead consider how futile those kinds of gestures are and that direct intervention would take everything you've got to give who's gonna make that commitment the odds are it's not going to be you or if is you it's only going to be the one issue to the exclusion of all others quote so economic sanctions are useless question mark close quote I formerly studied political science did you take a look at North Korea take a look at Cuba take a look at the Ukraine conflict do you think a consumer boycott on palm oil could ever have as much of an impact as the history of recent sanctions against North Korea Cuba and Russia do you think it could even have 5% as much impact and what are those impacts you could be 18 years old and you could be 84 I know in either case grow up my claim is not that economic sanctions have zero impact economic sanctions against Cuba and North Korea enforced by the world's greatest Navy with an unlimited budget enforced by American aircraft carriers burning billions of dollars they have a little bit of an impact they have utterly failed to achieve their goals over decades and decades of enforcement but no I would not say economic sanctions on Cuba North Korea have had zero impact I would never say that that would be ridiculous however I would say that if you think vegans boycotting palm oil could ever have an impact even 5% as significant as the u.s. needly blockade of Cuba you are insane and if you make any reasonable analysis of what that impact is either the 100 percent or the five percent situations like know through Cuba I think you'd have to have again a really humbling reevaluation of what you're doing in terms of boycott based activism what you're doing you know short term and long term if this is about the animals if this is about ecology or even if this is about public education and outreach fundamentally people become vegan when they discover when they learn that it's the right thing to do and the progress of the vegan movement relies on us asking again and again won't you join us won't you do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do and everyone knows the hinge that's gonna turn on more and anything else is going to be public education and outreach and guess what boycotts they actually don't reach out to or educate anyone the main effect they have is reaffirming our own sense which I would call a delusion of our moral purity because we've got less and less stuff in our fridge that somebody said on Facebook was dirty and bad and immoral and it lets us turn a blind eye to the tragic reality of what we can and cannot do whether it's for exotic orangutan in far-off Indonesia or bears suffering and dying in our own backyard I got love for the vegan movement I got hope for the future guys if you keep watching this channel I'm gonna keep asking the tough questions about us Yin