Catharsis: the "Game of Thrones is Garbage" Bandwagon
21 October 2017 [link youtube]
This could have, also, been called, "HBO's award-winning garbage". It contains some brief comparisons to HBO's Rome and other shows that seem to have been (to some extent similarly?) a victim of its own success.
This ain't the only video on this topic that I've got… on the contrary, there's a whole playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZEkgohG7k7oK5ShvyvAswb-3lSWjlQe6
A.S.O.I.A.F. = "A Song of Ice and Fire", i.e., the books of George R.R. Martin (G.R.R.M.), also known under the title "Game of Thrones", used by the T.V. adaptation to refer to the series as a whole.
Youtube Automatic Transcription
Game of Thrones a Song of Ice and Fire
we did record one new video on this topic that was over an hour long had a lot of laughter had a lot of jokes about sex and eunuchs a lot of below-the-belt humor and that video never got upload but the broader truth is we both kind of lost all interest in talking about the TV show we lost all interest in talking about the books we lost all interest in reading the books because the overall effect of this season was so disheartening demotivating or just just uninteresting we just straight-up lost interest in doing Game of Thrones Song of Ice and Fire commentary another thing so you have not seen this this is news to you I've never mentioned it to you before there was this really broad change in the mood of a Song of Ice and Fire YouTube the YouTube game of Thrones demi-monde where before so you know the last video we had up on the channel that was actually just a response to like episode 2 episode 3 I forget which one we just said this episode was awful it's just mind-blowing lawfulness there was this shift from kind of everyone making excuses for the show and being really positive about the show - like a couple weeks after the season ended it went to the opposite extreme and there have been a whole bunch of like really janky not particularly well thought-out videos they're just titled like Game of Thrones sucks now like Game of Thrones is now garbage that have gotten tens of thousands of views 30,000 60,000 or over a hundred thousand views I think because a lot of people are now you know wandering around the internet looking looking for that echo chamber looking to reinforce you know their feelings the actual pros the people who make their money writing became of Thrones in magazines they're still saying it's a masterpiece well he's interesting but it seems like more and more the fandom has turned against the show and with that comes a certain level of lack of confidence even in the books because part of what's been happening - again you don't know what this there have been all these leaks allegedly from hacked computers in the heartless corporation making the TV show which kind of shows how weak I don't say okay how weak the writing process is does that even make sense you know that you know they're working from these very sketchy instructions from george RR martin and coming up with what the final come the show is supposed to be in terms of reflections on democracy and monarchy ii and so in terms of the directions the books are going in people have kind of less confidence than ever before of course there's this bedrock assumption that the books are gonna be better than the show but how much better we really don't know so there's a real a real sense of doom didn't you say that george RR martin was really negative about the show like he doesn't even watch it right no so that's also that's also a point it's question how much weight to put in that suit oh he has he has stated he now doesn't watch the TV show anymore right that's what people are reading into it you know i mean there's another way to look at that i mean another way to look at this he's way way behind in terms the actual writing and maybe a long time ago he should have stopped doing promo tours stopping him all with TV show maybe he should have just buckle down and trying to make the deadline in the books you know you could put more than one spin on it but i think most people feel that the author has lost faith in the creative direction the process yeah yeah of the project yeah yeah so to give you an examples there was one video up which is part of this new kind of school of thought of saying Game of Thrones sucks which is kind of like already become a hackneyed and again like I don't I don't feel motivated to pile on it our former video we did a lot of laughing about how awful Game of Thrones is and how awful it's become and we compare see so at that time this was a this was an understandable take we compared it to the kind of strangely sleepwalking attitude towards HBO's Rome yeah so Rome is a completely separate series made by the same heartless corporation HBO did a series called Rome a lot of the same actors a lot of people I think would say if you like one show check out the other but we found really strange was long story short our critical perspective on Rome is season one was a flawed masterpiece flawed but a masterpiece but season two was jaw-droppingly awful it was unbelievably bad so I wanted to title that that video HBO's award-winning garbage you know because it just seems strange since there's no critical capacity to recognize that these shows are going off the rails or getting worse and worse even when it's as obvious as season one of Rome verse in season two of Rome now I mean Game of Thrones has been spread out over seven or eight years now right so it's it's more of a gradual transformation I mean I think some people do feel there was like a specific moment when the show became garbage but anyways maybe not not as easy to see was wrong but I think you know in two sentences like that that's that's worth just worth saying we seem to be in a situation where as soon as the show becomes a critical darling as soon as it becomes a masthead Show for HBO as soon becomes their pride and joy and award-winning you know cultural icon of a show then we we I don't know I guess we go into situation where the the producers and writers are presumed to do no wrong and they have to go a long way wrong before anyone notices you know and that that's understandable it's hard to tell someone they're up when they're making millions of dollars yeah and winning awards and bringing prestige to the I can't say this generally about HBO because I've only seen brome gay Matthew and more recently Westworld which you have not want know I did see West world so that was only the first season I thought it was brilliant irony but we'll see what happens with the second season I remember trying to watch Boardwalk Empire and I thought it was garbage we tried to watch that drama about the American Civil War America sorry well American Revolution sorry John yes sir John Adams system I found it unwatchable but you know we we could try again so now I have a few other I have a few other experiences with HBO being overrated and there is this kind of narrative you know amongst audiences and amongst professional critics that this is the golden age of television the you know we're living through a period of time when television is better yeah better than the movies better than Hollywood movies yeah maybe true convenience I don't I don't watch Hollywood movies and most of our most of our recent attempts to watch Hollywood movies I I walk out after 10 minutes lying you know it's like this is not this is not at a level of walk out meaning just close close the video player on the computer right but yeah I mean you know for me I'm someone where Game of Thrones just barely is watchable anyway yeah there's just barely enough political content political and philosophical content to Game of Thrones to justify my time but the vast majority of pop culture I could never I could never watch yeah and I watch did you watch all the seasons really like did you binge watch the the first couple seasons or have you been with Thrones so okay there's a great question how did I start watching Game of Thrones anyway well I had a baby so my daughter is now four years old so during the pregnancy no was actually after the birth we had newborn baby I used to I used to lift weights I used to be doing upright rows I would say you know might but the uprights to excel with to hundreds of those while watching Game of Thrones and W while the baby was sleeping so you'd rock the baby is sleeping you know baby sleeps at funny times you never really know what's gonna happen so it was something I could do I don't know predictably but unexpectedly you know no particularly reschedule and so my ex-wife I'm divorced my ex-wife started watching Game of Thrones and at first I was so skeptical I'm just like oh god this is gonna be boobie dragon sword fights about Game of Thrones on your channel I was like oh come on right well okay there's this there's the nudity there's that there's that there's the reputation that show has for tawdry nudity right and like dragons right there's the fact that it's set in a fantasy world with dragon this already kind of gives you a preciousness germination of medieval you know I'm just thinking thinking back to when I first heard about the show from one of my college friends and he was raving about it he was like oh my gosh these are the best books of the century like best show and when he told me about it I was like I don't know like I got I've never really been into the like historical movies or like fiction or and this is a historical legacy but this isn't this doesn't even do this it's as more historical than yeah this has magic and yeah sword fighting and you know as well so that there's a scene in a famous American comedy a comedy for the theater and I totally put the name of this comedy but so it's a comedy this is very common for 20th century American theater it's a it's a commentary on the theater from within the theater so one of the characters is the playwright for the play kind of thing yeah it's several but anyway so that at one point the the playwright is reading a review of his of his newest play which the play itself is about you know some again it's a it's a it's a play within a play scenario and he sees it's a very positive review but he's totally disconsolate in my own blown he says a baseball play how can they say it's a baseball play it's not a play about baseball it's about a father's relationship with his son and he throws down the newspaper and says was Hamlet a play about castles the point being it is a play about baseball before the playwrights perspective you know he's offended at the suggestion that this is a vote that this is about you know it's said in but of course there is a sense in which Hamlet is a play about castles there is a sense in which Hamlet is a play about sword fighting I think it's actually is important to recognize that you know historically Hamlet was successful in large part as an action an action movie in action you know play there's a lot of sword fighting in Hamlet you know a lot of the plot twists hang on meant this came up whistling conversation at one point in the plot we expect Hamlet to be a weak sword fighter but he comments that while he was taken captive by the Pirates he's been doing nothing but practice sword fighting all day that he would survive you know it is what it is but in terms of reaching a popular audience I don't think Hamlet was selling tickets because of its lengthy reflections on suicide yeah anyway but yeah so I mean Game of Thrones is it is you know about dragons it is about sword fights it is about that stuff not entirely but if this season was pretty much a document and about about whether or not you know eunuch the sexuality of yet less brothels still some nudity of it yeah anyway there was this video but you were brothel fewer brothels I wasn't gonna I wasn't gonna aggression I let you I let it fly yeah there was this video up so speaking of being an English major that got more than thirty thousand views maybe more than sixty thousand I forget and it criticized the series and and the books was criticizing both that they had no catharsis that this is the flaw in the writing so this this struck me first and foremost I think this is part of this overall change of mood from everyone saying the show was so wonderful and making excuses about it and kind of justifying it didn't respond to it that way to now what kind of cycle where everyone is heaping blame on the show I want to keeping score on the show and kind of any criticism no matter how ridiculous is his value no not that many people read Greek tragedy any more ancient Greek tragedy full disclosure I read Greek tragedy in English translation not in the original Greek whereas I did read pally in the original poly and I read Chinese the original Chinese and some stuff but no I'm I'm not an ancient Greek scholar um that really struck me because to me it's kind of a mind-blowing ly stupid comment but wrapped in a kind of veneer of sophistication and respectability so catharsis and this is it mean obviously this is an ancient Greek concept from ancient Greek drama what kind of a person watching Game of Thrones would feel catharsis when Ramsay Bolton is killed so yeah I think this guy who made this YouTube video yeah he probably does have a probably as a master's degree in English literature or something I think he has a formal education this stuff okay you you could feel that and I think it's actually a criticism of the show and contours to the book what are we supposed to feel happy when the evil character is torn apart by dogs by his own dogs by his own right or should you feel happy should you feel catharsis this is the OL catharsis in the ancient Greek sense when circe poisons the daughter of the woman who poisoned her own daughter that is catharsis in the strictest ancient Greek sense that's exactly what they did with their tragedies including their most formal semi-religious tragedies it is imagined in ancient Greek theater some some of the plays were comedies some were were informal but the the high end or that Dido the deep end is simple some of them were very close to religious rituals where they were they were acting out you know drama they're acting scripts about Hercules but that they regarded as religious you know in the same way that acting out you know the execution of Jesus Christ or something is as a deeply religious ritual a lot of them were very happy very very formal in that sense and that that was catharsis was when you had that type of revenge you know an example is when somebody murders the person who plotted to murder their own father and the 30 years earlier this is kind of crap but you know and all the evidence is that the crowd cheered you know what that was satisfy that you know this was a culture where that was regarded positively now again like medieval Christian England for stealing a pad of paper for stealing stationery a man would be broken by the wheel in a public square with the crowd cheering a lot of these pre-modern cultures the idea of revenge the idea of the death penalty for what we'd consider trivial crimes was part of daily life maybe she's a weekly life you know you'd go to the local festival you'd go to whatever the you know whatever the event was and you'd see people being executed and tortured to death there was you know par for the course part of your culture so I mean there's a broader question of what does catharsis mean today is it even possible to have catharsis through violence in these kind of movies no probably there isn't horror genre probably there is in mainstream crap but I'm what problem I mean you know in comic book release I don't know is that why people watch comic book movies do they actually want to see Batman get revenge against the people who killed his own parents I don't think so like I don't even think the audience for Batman is that unsophisticated I don't think people think yeah if Batman commits murder that's good because murder was committed because I don't think people see it that way but to me to me that's really interesting because it's so well for one thing it's just terrible criticism of Game of Thrones and I think part of the subtlety of the book you know what you even see this within the Dunkin egg novels what is justice in dunk and egg dunk doesn't want to have his foot in his hand cut off right he doesn't want to face an unjust sentence yes he also doesn't want to murder seven people you know this is a tournament of seven against seven and a couple people died not you know and a good man dies a man who would have been king there's all this earth all these terrible what is justice Neil what should you feel catharsis does anyone read that story was anyone so stupid I think this story is written so that you're supposed to cheer like yeah like Duncan egg won the sore fight there for that like there for those people deserve to die there for dunk didn't deserve to have his foot cut off for the you know the crime he committed which was a crime and which we know was basically because he had an erection for this woman he had a crush on this girl he wanted to sleep with his girl so he mutilated a member of the royal family and that's the reality he wasn't you know the outsiders perceived it as if he was standing up for the the poor and the downtrodden and he wasn't he was trying to get laid you know would you say this is the psychological to me that's the way george RR martin barton writes and that's what we have to expect now in the books we assume that Ramsay Bolton will die you know it hasn't happened in the books yet maybe Ramsay Bolton will be eaten by his own dogs but I think exactly the point will inevitably be that you know there is no justice there is no catharsis unless you're some kind of monster unless you are a Ramsay Bolton like character yourself who would believe that's a good or great thing you know I mean even I mean you know Duncan egg you're kind of getting in at the shallow end of the swimming pool where you get into the main stories it's not that morally murky yet but you know these I don't know did you finish all three either Duncan I don't know if you got to the end okay right so you did so you know I mean the dispute over who controls the water in this river and the land ownership can be resolved through marriage and this stuff okay you want to talk about justice which is I think how that read the the author would talk about it just you know it's complex it's dissatisfactory and so on do you want to talk about catharsis like you know who's stupid enough to be like cheering for one side like yeah the old man got his revenge or the you know that that's the whole point is that it's not it's not resolved through revenge is is Cersei Lannister satisfied to poison this woman's daughter the same woman who poisoned her daughter with the same poison that's very ancient Greek that's like a textbook definition of catharsis you know but again I mean you know I don't know what you think of the audience where you think to yourself if anyone would think that that was satisfactory or even that's what the plots about maybe that's a failing of the show we have no idea how that how the book is gonna carry out I can believe that Cersei you'll do that or do something like that in the book we have we have no idea what's happening you know in the books that's thousands of pages away still from where we're at but uh yeah so to me catharsis is dead my long story short on that one all right so look we lived through a weird period of time with this you guys missed out on cuz the video got deleted we couldn't get it to upload we try it again again then I ended up accidentally deleting the video if we try to upload it like seven times or ability to access the Internet kind of comes and goes here in China but you know I felt like I was I was swimming against the current a couple of months ago basically and saying that this show is crap and now we're in the reverse situation where everyone's lamenting that the show is crap that's really become the dominant narrative about about Game of Thrones and it Nassif as you say it seems like even the author has kind of switched over to regarding the show as crap right right so I tried to watch the last Kingdom and like I say I can just barely compel myself to watch Song of Ice and Fire but has enough philosophical and political content for the books and the show to do well for me and that also was kind of interesting they can reflect on you you again you have an actual English degree but to me that made me reflect on instead of catharsis being dead that the hero narrative for me is dead you know for me the weakness of that TV show and probably better than original book I just have no interest in a plot that revolves around this hero and his greatness and him solving problems because he's so virtuous or he's so clever and he overcomes the odds yeah so that was that was interesting that the next couple episodes do revolve around him I think the worst season well and I clicked ahead to the start of the second season kind of wondering if it got got more interesting and you know I mean I guess the other thing it has okay probably the reason why george RR martin likes it is that it deals with religion front and center which obviously we're not even trying here to catalogue what's wrong with the TV show but in terms of the weaknesses of the TV show versus the book the TV show is now really the TV show being Game of Thrones sorry the TV show Game of Thrones is really failing to deal with religion and as the books progress the books get more and more religious religion becomes more and more of a who's cast more and more of a shadow over the plot and so on so I can imagine why george RR martin likes the last kingdom so much the last kingdom is historical not fantasy although it's just barely historical also in terms of costumes and stuff people look like they're extras from Star Trek The Next Generation they're not trying to be that historically accurate but I mean it's a long meditation on basically the tragedy of England becoming Christian you know with just you know there's a sense of dread about what medieval Christianity means in Europe and in England specifically and of you know torture and just all the horrible aspects of medieval Christianity creeping into that society but that hero narrative to me man I yeah I have zero interest I've absolutely zero interest which again made me reflect on well why is it that I can get behind Game of Thrones basically nobody in Game of Thrones is a hero you know and even if you think of one or two characters as heroic they're not they don't perceive themselves as such they're not perceived as such and within the fictional world and there's a lot of ambiguity and bumping of shoulders between would be heroes or I know you've seen it but yeah that's how West world is like that there isn't one here oh yeah that is interesting about the show well I mean you know one of the basic concepts we had in the 20th century was the theater of ideas and I mean ultimately you know for me Game of Thrones Song of Ice and Fire it's interesting as a theater of the theater of ideas and I think the vast majority of people say no they quote George Martin bethis it's about the human heart and contact in conflict with itself it's about the passions it's about the emotions and so on you you really care about how Jon Snow feels really at any point but any point in season seven you care about how Jon Snow feels you know I don't anymore we said this in the in the earlier video the romance tree Jon Snow and Ygritte actually was a successful romance and had kind of tipped stereotypical audience members were on the edge of their seat and so on the romance between Jon Snow and Daenerys is the non-event of 2017 it's it's literally not worth talking about we couldn't be bothered to make a youtube video talking about it it's just it's just garbage so yeah hey they go guys some interesting reflections on HBO's award-winning garbage I wonder if in terms of what can work in those story meetings at those table readings I wonder if there really is a problem or a pattern with these shows being cursed by their own success you get over a certain level of success and then you start to lose the sort of necessary self-criticism and rounds of rewriting improvement and self-improvement that made maybe the first three seasons so great or as good as they are or whatever you want to say I know you know it's commonly said that one of the best elements of the first three seasons were actually the filler scenes because they didn't have enough material and then that would write these scenes like dialogue between Vera's philosophical dialogue between Vera's and Littlefinger which was not planned was written last-minute and stuff they would have these rounds of rewrites and filler which which produced some of the best most philosophical material on the show evidently that's gone and what you've got net left now is a kind of you know brainless action movie booby dragon sword fights and if you came here to watch an action movie there's not enough of any of those three there's not enough sex or sexuality the interviews not enough boobies compared to well you can get on the internet oh boy you can get in the next channel on TV it's not it's not sexy you know it's not romantic it doesn't work in the way the Ygritte plot worked as a really involving one it's not doesn't really work or it's not satisfactory as an action movie you can watch a kung fu movie or something and I don't think the high fantasy elements can carry it either again okay I said do you care about Jon Snow's feelings did you care when that dragon died did that reach you emotionally of course not I rest my case
we did record one new video on this topic that was over an hour long had a lot of laughter had a lot of jokes about sex and eunuchs a lot of below-the-belt humor and that video never got upload but the broader truth is we both kind of lost all interest in talking about the TV show we lost all interest in talking about the books we lost all interest in reading the books because the overall effect of this season was so disheartening demotivating or just just uninteresting we just straight-up lost interest in doing Game of Thrones Song of Ice and Fire commentary another thing so you have not seen this this is news to you I've never mentioned it to you before there was this really broad change in the mood of a Song of Ice and Fire YouTube the YouTube game of Thrones demi-monde where before so you know the last video we had up on the channel that was actually just a response to like episode 2 episode 3 I forget which one we just said this episode was awful it's just mind-blowing lawfulness there was this shift from kind of everyone making excuses for the show and being really positive about the show - like a couple weeks after the season ended it went to the opposite extreme and there have been a whole bunch of like really janky not particularly well thought-out videos they're just titled like Game of Thrones sucks now like Game of Thrones is now garbage that have gotten tens of thousands of views 30,000 60,000 or over a hundred thousand views I think because a lot of people are now you know wandering around the internet looking looking for that echo chamber looking to reinforce you know their feelings the actual pros the people who make their money writing became of Thrones in magazines they're still saying it's a masterpiece well he's interesting but it seems like more and more the fandom has turned against the show and with that comes a certain level of lack of confidence even in the books because part of what's been happening - again you don't know what this there have been all these leaks allegedly from hacked computers in the heartless corporation making the TV show which kind of shows how weak I don't say okay how weak the writing process is does that even make sense you know that you know they're working from these very sketchy instructions from george RR martin and coming up with what the final come the show is supposed to be in terms of reflections on democracy and monarchy ii and so in terms of the directions the books are going in people have kind of less confidence than ever before of course there's this bedrock assumption that the books are gonna be better than the show but how much better we really don't know so there's a real a real sense of doom didn't you say that george RR martin was really negative about the show like he doesn't even watch it right no so that's also that's also a point it's question how much weight to put in that suit oh he has he has stated he now doesn't watch the TV show anymore right that's what people are reading into it you know i mean there's another way to look at that i mean another way to look at this he's way way behind in terms the actual writing and maybe a long time ago he should have stopped doing promo tours stopping him all with TV show maybe he should have just buckle down and trying to make the deadline in the books you know you could put more than one spin on it but i think most people feel that the author has lost faith in the creative direction the process yeah yeah of the project yeah yeah so to give you an examples there was one video up which is part of this new kind of school of thought of saying Game of Thrones sucks which is kind of like already become a hackneyed and again like I don't I don't feel motivated to pile on it our former video we did a lot of laughing about how awful Game of Thrones is and how awful it's become and we compare see so at that time this was a this was an understandable take we compared it to the kind of strangely sleepwalking attitude towards HBO's Rome yeah so Rome is a completely separate series made by the same heartless corporation HBO did a series called Rome a lot of the same actors a lot of people I think would say if you like one show check out the other but we found really strange was long story short our critical perspective on Rome is season one was a flawed masterpiece flawed but a masterpiece but season two was jaw-droppingly awful it was unbelievably bad so I wanted to title that that video HBO's award-winning garbage you know because it just seems strange since there's no critical capacity to recognize that these shows are going off the rails or getting worse and worse even when it's as obvious as season one of Rome verse in season two of Rome now I mean Game of Thrones has been spread out over seven or eight years now right so it's it's more of a gradual transformation I mean I think some people do feel there was like a specific moment when the show became garbage but anyways maybe not not as easy to see was wrong but I think you know in two sentences like that that's that's worth just worth saying we seem to be in a situation where as soon as the show becomes a critical darling as soon as it becomes a masthead Show for HBO as soon becomes their pride and joy and award-winning you know cultural icon of a show then we we I don't know I guess we go into situation where the the producers and writers are presumed to do no wrong and they have to go a long way wrong before anyone notices you know and that that's understandable it's hard to tell someone they're up when they're making millions of dollars yeah and winning awards and bringing prestige to the I can't say this generally about HBO because I've only seen brome gay Matthew and more recently Westworld which you have not want know I did see West world so that was only the first season I thought it was brilliant irony but we'll see what happens with the second season I remember trying to watch Boardwalk Empire and I thought it was garbage we tried to watch that drama about the American Civil War America sorry well American Revolution sorry John yes sir John Adams system I found it unwatchable but you know we we could try again so now I have a few other I have a few other experiences with HBO being overrated and there is this kind of narrative you know amongst audiences and amongst professional critics that this is the golden age of television the you know we're living through a period of time when television is better yeah better than the movies better than Hollywood movies yeah maybe true convenience I don't I don't watch Hollywood movies and most of our most of our recent attempts to watch Hollywood movies I I walk out after 10 minutes lying you know it's like this is not this is not at a level of walk out meaning just close close the video player on the computer right but yeah I mean you know for me I'm someone where Game of Thrones just barely is watchable anyway yeah there's just barely enough political content political and philosophical content to Game of Thrones to justify my time but the vast majority of pop culture I could never I could never watch yeah and I watch did you watch all the seasons really like did you binge watch the the first couple seasons or have you been with Thrones so okay there's a great question how did I start watching Game of Thrones anyway well I had a baby so my daughter is now four years old so during the pregnancy no was actually after the birth we had newborn baby I used to I used to lift weights I used to be doing upright rows I would say you know might but the uprights to excel with to hundreds of those while watching Game of Thrones and W while the baby was sleeping so you'd rock the baby is sleeping you know baby sleeps at funny times you never really know what's gonna happen so it was something I could do I don't know predictably but unexpectedly you know no particularly reschedule and so my ex-wife I'm divorced my ex-wife started watching Game of Thrones and at first I was so skeptical I'm just like oh god this is gonna be boobie dragon sword fights about Game of Thrones on your channel I was like oh come on right well okay there's this there's the nudity there's that there's that there's the reputation that show has for tawdry nudity right and like dragons right there's the fact that it's set in a fantasy world with dragon this already kind of gives you a preciousness germination of medieval you know I'm just thinking thinking back to when I first heard about the show from one of my college friends and he was raving about it he was like oh my gosh these are the best books of the century like best show and when he told me about it I was like I don't know like I got I've never really been into the like historical movies or like fiction or and this is a historical legacy but this isn't this doesn't even do this it's as more historical than yeah this has magic and yeah sword fighting and you know as well so that there's a scene in a famous American comedy a comedy for the theater and I totally put the name of this comedy but so it's a comedy this is very common for 20th century American theater it's a it's a commentary on the theater from within the theater so one of the characters is the playwright for the play kind of thing yeah it's several but anyway so that at one point the the playwright is reading a review of his of his newest play which the play itself is about you know some again it's a it's a it's a play within a play scenario and he sees it's a very positive review but he's totally disconsolate in my own blown he says a baseball play how can they say it's a baseball play it's not a play about baseball it's about a father's relationship with his son and he throws down the newspaper and says was Hamlet a play about castles the point being it is a play about baseball before the playwrights perspective you know he's offended at the suggestion that this is a vote that this is about you know it's said in but of course there is a sense in which Hamlet is a play about castles there is a sense in which Hamlet is a play about sword fighting I think it's actually is important to recognize that you know historically Hamlet was successful in large part as an action an action movie in action you know play there's a lot of sword fighting in Hamlet you know a lot of the plot twists hang on meant this came up whistling conversation at one point in the plot we expect Hamlet to be a weak sword fighter but he comments that while he was taken captive by the Pirates he's been doing nothing but practice sword fighting all day that he would survive you know it is what it is but in terms of reaching a popular audience I don't think Hamlet was selling tickets because of its lengthy reflections on suicide yeah anyway but yeah so I mean Game of Thrones is it is you know about dragons it is about sword fights it is about that stuff not entirely but if this season was pretty much a document and about about whether or not you know eunuch the sexuality of yet less brothels still some nudity of it yeah anyway there was this video but you were brothel fewer brothels I wasn't gonna I wasn't gonna aggression I let you I let it fly yeah there was this video up so speaking of being an English major that got more than thirty thousand views maybe more than sixty thousand I forget and it criticized the series and and the books was criticizing both that they had no catharsis that this is the flaw in the writing so this this struck me first and foremost I think this is part of this overall change of mood from everyone saying the show was so wonderful and making excuses about it and kind of justifying it didn't respond to it that way to now what kind of cycle where everyone is heaping blame on the show I want to keeping score on the show and kind of any criticism no matter how ridiculous is his value no not that many people read Greek tragedy any more ancient Greek tragedy full disclosure I read Greek tragedy in English translation not in the original Greek whereas I did read pally in the original poly and I read Chinese the original Chinese and some stuff but no I'm I'm not an ancient Greek scholar um that really struck me because to me it's kind of a mind-blowing ly stupid comment but wrapped in a kind of veneer of sophistication and respectability so catharsis and this is it mean obviously this is an ancient Greek concept from ancient Greek drama what kind of a person watching Game of Thrones would feel catharsis when Ramsay Bolton is killed so yeah I think this guy who made this YouTube video yeah he probably does have a probably as a master's degree in English literature or something I think he has a formal education this stuff okay you you could feel that and I think it's actually a criticism of the show and contours to the book what are we supposed to feel happy when the evil character is torn apart by dogs by his own dogs by his own right or should you feel happy should you feel catharsis this is the OL catharsis in the ancient Greek sense when circe poisons the daughter of the woman who poisoned her own daughter that is catharsis in the strictest ancient Greek sense that's exactly what they did with their tragedies including their most formal semi-religious tragedies it is imagined in ancient Greek theater some some of the plays were comedies some were were informal but the the high end or that Dido the deep end is simple some of them were very close to religious rituals where they were they were acting out you know drama they're acting scripts about Hercules but that they regarded as religious you know in the same way that acting out you know the execution of Jesus Christ or something is as a deeply religious ritual a lot of them were very happy very very formal in that sense and that that was catharsis was when you had that type of revenge you know an example is when somebody murders the person who plotted to murder their own father and the 30 years earlier this is kind of crap but you know and all the evidence is that the crowd cheered you know what that was satisfy that you know this was a culture where that was regarded positively now again like medieval Christian England for stealing a pad of paper for stealing stationery a man would be broken by the wheel in a public square with the crowd cheering a lot of these pre-modern cultures the idea of revenge the idea of the death penalty for what we'd consider trivial crimes was part of daily life maybe she's a weekly life you know you'd go to the local festival you'd go to whatever the you know whatever the event was and you'd see people being executed and tortured to death there was you know par for the course part of your culture so I mean there's a broader question of what does catharsis mean today is it even possible to have catharsis through violence in these kind of movies no probably there isn't horror genre probably there is in mainstream crap but I'm what problem I mean you know in comic book release I don't know is that why people watch comic book movies do they actually want to see Batman get revenge against the people who killed his own parents I don't think so like I don't even think the audience for Batman is that unsophisticated I don't think people think yeah if Batman commits murder that's good because murder was committed because I don't think people see it that way but to me to me that's really interesting because it's so well for one thing it's just terrible criticism of Game of Thrones and I think part of the subtlety of the book you know what you even see this within the Dunkin egg novels what is justice in dunk and egg dunk doesn't want to have his foot in his hand cut off right he doesn't want to face an unjust sentence yes he also doesn't want to murder seven people you know this is a tournament of seven against seven and a couple people died not you know and a good man dies a man who would have been king there's all this earth all these terrible what is justice Neil what should you feel catharsis does anyone read that story was anyone so stupid I think this story is written so that you're supposed to cheer like yeah like Duncan egg won the sore fight there for that like there for those people deserve to die there for dunk didn't deserve to have his foot cut off for the you know the crime he committed which was a crime and which we know was basically because he had an erection for this woman he had a crush on this girl he wanted to sleep with his girl so he mutilated a member of the royal family and that's the reality he wasn't you know the outsiders perceived it as if he was standing up for the the poor and the downtrodden and he wasn't he was trying to get laid you know would you say this is the psychological to me that's the way george RR martin barton writes and that's what we have to expect now in the books we assume that Ramsay Bolton will die you know it hasn't happened in the books yet maybe Ramsay Bolton will be eaten by his own dogs but I think exactly the point will inevitably be that you know there is no justice there is no catharsis unless you're some kind of monster unless you are a Ramsay Bolton like character yourself who would believe that's a good or great thing you know I mean even I mean you know Duncan egg you're kind of getting in at the shallow end of the swimming pool where you get into the main stories it's not that morally murky yet but you know these I don't know did you finish all three either Duncan I don't know if you got to the end okay right so you did so you know I mean the dispute over who controls the water in this river and the land ownership can be resolved through marriage and this stuff okay you want to talk about justice which is I think how that read the the author would talk about it just you know it's complex it's dissatisfactory and so on do you want to talk about catharsis like you know who's stupid enough to be like cheering for one side like yeah the old man got his revenge or the you know that that's the whole point is that it's not it's not resolved through revenge is is Cersei Lannister satisfied to poison this woman's daughter the same woman who poisoned her daughter with the same poison that's very ancient Greek that's like a textbook definition of catharsis you know but again I mean you know I don't know what you think of the audience where you think to yourself if anyone would think that that was satisfactory or even that's what the plots about maybe that's a failing of the show we have no idea how that how the book is gonna carry out I can believe that Cersei you'll do that or do something like that in the book we have we have no idea what's happening you know in the books that's thousands of pages away still from where we're at but uh yeah so to me catharsis is dead my long story short on that one all right so look we lived through a weird period of time with this you guys missed out on cuz the video got deleted we couldn't get it to upload we try it again again then I ended up accidentally deleting the video if we try to upload it like seven times or ability to access the Internet kind of comes and goes here in China but you know I felt like I was I was swimming against the current a couple of months ago basically and saying that this show is crap and now we're in the reverse situation where everyone's lamenting that the show is crap that's really become the dominant narrative about about Game of Thrones and it Nassif as you say it seems like even the author has kind of switched over to regarding the show as crap right right so I tried to watch the last Kingdom and like I say I can just barely compel myself to watch Song of Ice and Fire but has enough philosophical and political content for the books and the show to do well for me and that also was kind of interesting they can reflect on you you again you have an actual English degree but to me that made me reflect on instead of catharsis being dead that the hero narrative for me is dead you know for me the weakness of that TV show and probably better than original book I just have no interest in a plot that revolves around this hero and his greatness and him solving problems because he's so virtuous or he's so clever and he overcomes the odds yeah so that was that was interesting that the next couple episodes do revolve around him I think the worst season well and I clicked ahead to the start of the second season kind of wondering if it got got more interesting and you know I mean I guess the other thing it has okay probably the reason why george RR martin likes it is that it deals with religion front and center which obviously we're not even trying here to catalogue what's wrong with the TV show but in terms of the weaknesses of the TV show versus the book the TV show is now really the TV show being Game of Thrones sorry the TV show Game of Thrones is really failing to deal with religion and as the books progress the books get more and more religious religion becomes more and more of a who's cast more and more of a shadow over the plot and so on so I can imagine why george RR martin likes the last kingdom so much the last kingdom is historical not fantasy although it's just barely historical also in terms of costumes and stuff people look like they're extras from Star Trek The Next Generation they're not trying to be that historically accurate but I mean it's a long meditation on basically the tragedy of England becoming Christian you know with just you know there's a sense of dread about what medieval Christianity means in Europe and in England specifically and of you know torture and just all the horrible aspects of medieval Christianity creeping into that society but that hero narrative to me man I yeah I have zero interest I've absolutely zero interest which again made me reflect on well why is it that I can get behind Game of Thrones basically nobody in Game of Thrones is a hero you know and even if you think of one or two characters as heroic they're not they don't perceive themselves as such they're not perceived as such and within the fictional world and there's a lot of ambiguity and bumping of shoulders between would be heroes or I know you've seen it but yeah that's how West world is like that there isn't one here oh yeah that is interesting about the show well I mean you know one of the basic concepts we had in the 20th century was the theater of ideas and I mean ultimately you know for me Game of Thrones Song of Ice and Fire it's interesting as a theater of the theater of ideas and I think the vast majority of people say no they quote George Martin bethis it's about the human heart and contact in conflict with itself it's about the passions it's about the emotions and so on you you really care about how Jon Snow feels really at any point but any point in season seven you care about how Jon Snow feels you know I don't anymore we said this in the in the earlier video the romance tree Jon Snow and Ygritte actually was a successful romance and had kind of tipped stereotypical audience members were on the edge of their seat and so on the romance between Jon Snow and Daenerys is the non-event of 2017 it's it's literally not worth talking about we couldn't be bothered to make a youtube video talking about it it's just it's just garbage so yeah hey they go guys some interesting reflections on HBO's award-winning garbage I wonder if in terms of what can work in those story meetings at those table readings I wonder if there really is a problem or a pattern with these shows being cursed by their own success you get over a certain level of success and then you start to lose the sort of necessary self-criticism and rounds of rewriting improvement and self-improvement that made maybe the first three seasons so great or as good as they are or whatever you want to say I know you know it's commonly said that one of the best elements of the first three seasons were actually the filler scenes because they didn't have enough material and then that would write these scenes like dialogue between Vera's philosophical dialogue between Vera's and Littlefinger which was not planned was written last-minute and stuff they would have these rounds of rewrites and filler which which produced some of the best most philosophical material on the show evidently that's gone and what you've got net left now is a kind of you know brainless action movie booby dragon sword fights and if you came here to watch an action movie there's not enough of any of those three there's not enough sex or sexuality the interviews not enough boobies compared to well you can get on the internet oh boy you can get in the next channel on TV it's not it's not sexy you know it's not romantic it doesn't work in the way the Ygritte plot worked as a really involving one it's not doesn't really work or it's not satisfactory as an action movie you can watch a kung fu movie or something and I don't think the high fantasy elements can carry it either again okay I said do you care about Jon Snow's feelings did you care when that dragon died did that reach you emotionally of course not I rest my case