Vegsource: what is "the deal" with me and Jeff Nelson?

in most forms of small-scale politics
there's some kind of dividing line between the insider discourse in the outsider discourse and within my life nowhere was this more dramatic than in First Nations politics so first nations is the term we use in canada to refer to american indians to native Canadians whatever you want to say first nations is the term we use for that the people who were in Canada the descendants of the people who were in Canada prior to European colonialism my engagement with those politics ethnically I have no native blood I am a white person to be blunt and I showed up I enrolled in the native languages I started studying Korean a jib way and i did so openly with an interest in the politics and the future of those languages in those cultures in canada which is different from any white man many white men are only addressed in the past and we interest in history they're only interested in a kind of Musial ah gical approach which is to say their interest in how that culture is going to be put into a museum and remembered or they're interested in studying folklore and tradition from the past and for me I was really thinking about the political present and the political future and a lot of First Nations people was talking to got very excited about me and my research in the positive contribution I can make for that reason to give one example I remember I used to talk to people about doing research about the Vietnam War about First Nations peoples and their memories of their involvement with the Cold War you know the era when people in Canada real especially northern Canada were really justifiably terrified that a huge war was United States and Russia was going to happen any time involving nuclear weapons when I talked like I said people they were just getting incredibly excited because they never met anyone who even thought about First Nations that way you know what I mean when they met white people they would they would think about they would imagine or native people as if they lived in the ancient past and they don't they live in the modern world you know they eat pizza and they drive cars and they joined the army and they sit and watch the evening news and they wonder oh my god is there going to be a nuclear war that's going to destroy the world's we know it and they were able to same ecological political problems that white people do although from a different perspective and of course they have the unique challenge of trying to prevent their own languages from going extinct to some extent preventing their own culture their own dances their own music their own religion for going extinct so there are of course unique aspects but fundamentally they're living in the 21st century just like you and me but when I was involved with First Nations politics and again I kind of show up just saying look I'm a talented guy I've worked on a lot of obscure languages before I've worked on a lot of very difficult political problems before this my background in politics is my background in languages including indigenous ethnic minority languages I want to do something positive this so i am but with no claim to being an insider it was amazing to me how quickly i made the transition from being involved in the outside of this course to being involved in the insider discourse so as an example of this you know several times when i was on the First Nations University campus people said to me in this very strangely confessional way like as if they were telling me something really bad they were ashamed of they'd say oh you know um I'm doing a project up on the fourth floor no I'm sorry if I forget maybe it was the third floor this is from memory i forget but it was just a floor like that and I'd seen that floor like I'd been there it looked like any other floor in any other you know office building so at first I did not get the significance that at all and you know i would kind of say oh you know good for you so what's you know what's your project what are you what are you working on and then again they'd say in a really kind of reluctant way as if they're confessing to you that they're dealing drugs or doing something really really bad tell you know it's this project to try to help kids who've dropped out of school or they'd say oh you know it's this project to study access to hospitals really positive things again at first I just don't get like what's my talking about this later that's oh wow that's great i'm really happy for you you know when and I would say like oh that's great sounds like a wonderful project you know or maybe I'd say oh that reminds me of a project I did in Cambodia you don't want a similar issue you know and they kind of look at me and and squint and look down their feet and they'd say well it only short-term you know it's only a contract only be a couple of months like as if they're talking about something really bad so later I figured out what it was when they were saying the project was on the fourth floor that was code for it's not my project and it's not the university's project and it's not a project that answers to the indigenous government the First Nations government it's a project funded by and controlled by the federal government by the Canadian government by you know the kind of evil political enemies of the native people trying to watch all I didn't know germs inside our politics was outside of politics I had no way of imagine you know how was I gonna guess the floor that it's on tells you where the money's come from tells you who's in charge you know it's a great example of inside politics or is outside of politics right but those the things you learn um it's a little disturbing to me that right now I mean in terms of insider politics or results at our politics and veganism we kind of have all these dotted lines that are supposed to be about who hates who who's sleeping with who who supports whose career in terms of making money who's willing to lie into Fame who etc etc you know um I made a video ages ago it's not that good video to be honestly I look back at it a couple of weeks ago because I remembered it fondly but I made a video that was cold drama not meaningless drama and in that video I said look I'm not against drama we got to have drama about meaningful important things and the recent controversy my channel illustrates that where I was really talking about look I'm happy to address you know that what my own comments on Gary Yourofsky in cary France ela and abolitionism serious political issues serious questions about effective activism and philosophy and politics and veganism let's let's break it down let's talk about it let's let's really talk about it I'm even I'm totally willing to talk about okay an ethical issue in an intellectual issue like I'm saying Nina and Randa did something immoral in endorsing taco bell in advertising Taco Bell it's just a comment made in passing those trip that's a really serious issue and I think it think that could raise all kinds of debate and discussion doesn't but I'm just saying this is more substantive but if you want to take that video that raises all of those points and more and talks about breeze Harper and will tuttle and the world peace diet and raises the issue of kind of Buddhist and Hindu mysticism within vegan as did there are so many big issues for us to debate in for us to have drama though in that one video there was so much there and it links to and shows on screen videos have made addressing since the past you want to take that and reduce it to being a hot or not video that's what you want to make it into you know what I mean you want to turn this into a drama about you know who would you rather or who's who's hot who's not and I just got to say no that's not what the video is about and that's not what the drama should be about if you're really vegan if you're really concerned about the future of the movement etc etc help Todd well that too but I mean I raised that issue for a very clear purpose for a point etc I've made the point and now let's you know let's let's not have meaningless drama if you want to drown with me you know let's let's really do it um now the first time I ever heard the name Jeff Nelson because I didn't know the guy to me he wasn't famous um I you know this is all micro fame a few thousand people know who you are and a lot of people start to think themselves the same so the first time I ever heard Jeff Nelson's name was when one of my fans a supporter on patreon sent me an email with screen shots of his conversation with Jeff Nelson I know Jeff Nelson was but this supporter of my on patreon had written to Jeff saying the Jeff ought to take a stand against during writer what durianrider was doing in Chiang Mai I was still in Chiang Mai I think and at that time during writer was threatening to beat me up etc he was there to beat me up take me to the police station at least once he talked about having me killed but you know whatever these these threats along with the course very serious defamation and what have you so I think it was on Jeff's blog his tumblr or something Jeff replied in a very kind of stupid a to this supporter of my writing to him and saying look this is a really important issue you should take a stand on it but I didn't write to Jeff and when my fan my supporter sent me the screenshots of that at that time i did not know who jeff nelson was so you know i took the name in google debt and I realized like oh yeah like I'd seen his image before I had seen him in someone else's video or something like that you know what I mean it was like oh yeah right okay that guy like at some point I'd seen him in some video from some festival or something you know and at that point I figured out okay so there was this old website called veg source and he's you know the manager of that but I had no interest I had no concern I wasn't a fan but I also didn't dislike him he was not part of my life in any which way now months later you know I didn't care um you know also at that time I looked into it seemed like well Jeff was a guy who always supported during Ryder so it wasn't surprising he was going to continue to support to every miners that was it I didn't give it any more thought now at any stage of this why would I even bother talking to someone like Jeff I want to talk about that for just a minute here what motivates me to reach out and talk to any vegans and as a side note it's always been especially sad and lamentable to me that people including durianrider denounced and defame me for talking to hundreds of vegans where durianrider would say that I was this is proof that I was a bad person or up to no good that I had sent emails to hundreds of vegans and it's the opposite look I really reach out to and of course when several hundreds of vegans almost none of them are famous almost none of them are successful I'm not trying to get youtube use out of it like even we talked about youtubers most of these people have 10 views on YouTube they have YouTube channels that only their friends and family know about but yeah you know you're damn right over the last three years i have written emailed hundreds of vegans as for the cause you know I'm networking for that reason for me the only reason to reach out to someone like Jeff is really political take a step hold on and I mean political in a very positive sense some people are here on YouTube for fame some people are here on YouTube for sex some people are here on YouTube for money and um good luck there ain't much of any one of those three things to go around but if that's true here for you know I don't even hate on the game that's just a different game from what I'm playing and I'm in the category of people wear what positively motivates me what rewards my behavior what really makes this whole exercise worthwhile is the dream the dream of making a positive difference in the world that's why I take the time to write to Jeff that's why I take the time to write to vegan Ava that's why I took the time to apologize to freely like a lot of my behavior on the internet if you wonder why did I bother talking these people and some of them are despicable and some of them are wonderful and most of us are a mix of the two it really is the dream of making something positive happen in terms of real world vegan activist in terms of the cult core issues of ecology ethics veganism itself as a diet if you like etc etc and I've been through this stuff before I mean not to digress from a digression I had a supporter write to me saying just lamenting so terrible you know the conduct of these vegans is so terrible it's so depressing people are so more this is the worst community I've ever seen community that's not a community etc etc and I remember I wrote back to her and said well I'll be honest you I've seen worse Buddhism was worse my involvement with Buddhism as a community or as a political movement it's worse my involvement with or my witnessing of you know left-wing politics in Canada in general is worse what I saw in terms of the Green Party of Canada ecological politics defined as ecology not to find us vegan or animal rights is worse and their movements I was not a part of but that I witnessed the rise and fall of if you look back at something like a narco primitivism that was really a big deal right up to about 2001-2002 that was really where a lot of the action was that before veganism took off as a category it's worse so no I've seen worse things as bad as this is so you know my behavior reaching out to these people and doing a lot of what I do is in that sense political and it's very positive because it's based on the hope and the aspiration that you talked to enough of these people you reach out positively you see what do we have in common these aspirations we have to song quote to save the planet to save the animals to do something positive or at least to promote a diet and lifestyle because that is part of it can we work together make something positive and sometimes the answer is yes I never thought I'd be friends with vegan gains it's an unlikely pairing but vegan gains is someone I reached out to him back when his channel had only a few thousand or a few hundred viewers i think i think it was he was already at about 3,000 but you know he was a small channel when i first talked him and now here we are years later and he and I you know really become friends I'm I would have never expected that like in terms of people I have things in common with I might have expected to instead become friends some lakenya who is also someone I reached out to and someone I've talked to you this much but we're not friends now okay that's probably because I am friends with Enya's ex-boyfriend you know there are other issues there but whatever I just say there's no way for me to judge before you reach out to people on try to make those connections who can you have a productive collaborative relationship with and even though so at this stage coming back to my story um I know Jeff Nelson's over 60 years old why not why shouldn't Jeff Nelson and I become colleagues or friends like just looking at it on the face you know why do I have less in common with Jeff Nelson than I do with vegan gains there's just no way off the bat you gotta approach people I'm sorry this is my advice to you my advice to you is approach people with an open heart and an open mind and see if you can make some positive and that's what I did with Jeff Nelson even when he behaved like a scumbag towards me even when he showed that he's as immature as any 16 year old in the internet even when he showed to me again and again that you know he's a despicable person by my standards um you know because I again I wouldn't even call that optimism it's just what motivates me and I had someone asking me today a for whatever reason he asked the sort of overly humble way he said Oh sometime could I appear on their channel could we do a podcast together or something and he said to me I don't know if you have some minimum standard like you only have people on if they have only a certain number of thousands of yours thousands of subscribers I said no no all the time scroll through much I've had people on my channel who had 30 viewers 10 subscribers I've promoted channels when nobody heard of them and some of those channels have gone on to become popular and some of them have remained unknown but no know anyone who's doing real content anyone who's sincere vegan I'm out here trying to make those connections and I'll just mention unlike Jeff a back when durianrider defamed me and threatened to beat me up a whole lot of those people stood up to be counted so one that sticks out in my mind there's a woman who mostly does cooking videos and fitness videos so just not my kind of thing she's a vegan but just different genre from me and she uses the tag you know that vegan mom and she said in the video she said look you know I know this guy and I trust this guy something you know she knows me and trust me to some extent because um I'd written her I just sent her email back when her channel was pretty new back when nobody knew she was she had very very few viewers and I just wrote to her in a totally sincere way you know talk about talk about veganism etc uh which is true it's a pretty distant memory that's a couple years ago I say her channel was new and nobody heard of it and it was just interesting me she was an example of someone for whom that just left a positive impression in memory and she just came on camera and said look I know this guy I know this guy enough to know that what he's doing is is sincere and is motivated by real interest in vegan activism and this is ridiculous to see him victimized this way now we talked with three categories people here there are people who did that who just made some kind of positive comment about me or you know even just privately sent me an email in sympathy you know what that means a lot to me they're all kinds of people that didn't make a video didn't make a public statement but you just sent me an email saying wow man I'm sorry to hear about this thing in Chiang Mai this is really tough for you you know wish you the best whatever okay that's one category of people there people who said nothing it's another category people and then there are people like Jeff Nelson who waited for their chance to try to stunt who waited for their chance to try to insult me and take durianrider side and try to gain notoriety and viewers to doing it that's who jeff nelson was he was that third category and before this I didn't care about him I didn't know who he was but as I've just said at length fundamentally I was interested trying to make some positive happen because he's a vegan and again if you just look on the surface why would vegan gains be my friend and not Jeff Nelson I don't know oh I like if all I know what Jeff Nelson is he's 60 years old and he cares about veganism I don't know who am i close to an age my closer to Jeff Nelson and a germ I closer to vegan gains yeah I don't know i have like I don't know old Richard is ash I don't know if old vegan gains it but you know okay you know whatever and you know someone like that even if they've insulted me on the Internet I'm gonna give them a chance um I'm gonna say to them okay this is who I am you may have no idea who I really am because one apparently the only things you know about me come from durianrider now I think you have to be really pretty stupid to take durianrider at his word and not click on my channel and see my version of events I do think that that's uh yeah I'm losing confidence in your intelligence if this is your approach to life but I was obvious to me at the start that Jeff the little bit he knew about me was from nonsense durianrider had said and maybe some of Durand writers supporters it said in the internet okay but I'm going to give you the chance and I'm pretty confident that if you're basically an intelligent being um you know you're gonna take a look at my videos or hear what I have to say and you're gonna realize that I'm a sincere vegan you may hate me anyway you may disagree with me it's fine but you know you're not gonna regard me as a shill secretly working for the meat and dairy industry you're not gonna regard me as a CIA agent trying to destroy veganism from within you're not going to regard me as someone whose whole backstory xulai someone who's never been to university someone who never lived in Laos and Cambodia because the level of defamation at the time wasn't just about my sex life the level of defamation was so high they created a whole parallel universe where everything is upside down including a parallel universe in which i instigated the problem with durianrider which is completely false right so it is the ultimate victim-blaming it's blaming me for what during writer did so that's the foot you're starting off with Jeff Nelson so by the way i'm recording this with with comets coming alive so someone asked when did he insult you before calling his daughters early um for one thing I called them not beautiful and I very very you know specifically said that compared to other people who are going to be in Hollywood going to editions for the same role they do not stand out as strikingly beautiful so that is a very reasonable criticism for anyone and talent agents are going to tell you the same thing a show business is tough I'm not going to the only person to tell you some of that and it's not this is not an outrageous statement for anyone to make any circumstances but I didn't say ugly I just said they're not beautiful in that in that context but when did he insult me know that was back at that time says months ago now but also a couple of months after the conflict with during writer was really popping case I'm just gotta pause you if my lighting is kind of flashing in and out sorry guys all right there we go so I mentioned this is my camera having trouble with the natural light and the artificial lighting being on screen the same time uh so just to clarify so what was now again also I don't really mind the insults but what Jeff Nelson said to me what was insulting in my attempt to reply to it he very quickly lost track of what he was saying why he was saying it initially what Jeff Nelson said in insulting me was that I should stand up for myself okay it's the lighting in a stabilized here is the lighting all right all right okay you can see me um so what Jeff said initially in insulting me publicly on YouTube was that I should stand up for myself I E versus durianrider and then this is the second thing so it's there are two categories of insult or approach here and again like it just shows that he only knew about the situation from Duran rider from lies that were told about me just didn't know what happened but I don't know like I think it'd be very easy for someone take the opposite perspective easy to criticize me and say I stood up for myself too much but no his claim was that I ought to stand up for myself um and then his second category of complaint uh sorry he was claiming that I should have stood up for myself and his second category of complaint oh right was that I was in Chiang Mai for no good reason that I had no excuse that simply by being in Chiang Mai it was all my fault and that I should be blamed for everything during writer did including really criminal conduct so that was Jeff's taken in time now it's stupid as those two statements are because they are really stupid if you're familiar with the general facts a situation of the case they still are rational misconceptions that I can answer you know I can I can reply to that I can address what he misunderstood alright so my camera is acting up again here I could close the drapes so that we just have artificial light alright let's see if we can make this work and my response to him was to write to him and I wasn't angry but I said look Jeff I can by the way jeff has given me permission to read his emails on the internet he stated that both privately and publicly he encouraged me to do so uh hi sorry people saying hi to me from the audience welcome welcome to chat Jeff encouraged me to read his emails publicly on YouTube and he did that just because he felt he had provide me with good advice so there was no shade in that but he said that I should take the advice I'd that he'd given me and that I should discuss it openly on youtube so you know that's fine there was no no no malice in that but at the time I didn't get mad at Jeff I saw him as somebody who on the one hand was really completely misinformed somebody didn't know what even happened in Chiang Mai either because he was listening to durianrider other people who were just as much intentionally lying as durianrider and also frankly he seemed to me stupid he seemed to be stupid and to lack curiosity into lack rigor but Jeff did start it because at that time he came on the internet and insulted me repeatedly he made two videos that were insulting towards me but it was mostly in written comments on YouTube written comments and on his blog his other platforms and he started doing it then when I had already left Chiang Mai I was already here in China and kunming there was no reason for it aside from Jeff seeing an opportunity for his own self-promotion and at that time Jeff had kind of decided to stick his neck out and talk a lot of trash about durianrider but he was it was a weird thing he was still kind of supporting durianrider but he was also talking trash with her right it was just self-promotion on his part and again like okay so the two misconceptions are talking about so misconception one um if you think I didn't stand up for myself well I did durianrider threatened have a gang of thugs beat me up and my reply was where do you want to meet I was willing to get the teeth knocked out of my mouth I was willing to bleed for this I didn't care and during writer has turned that around and now claims that I was threatening him which was never true during writer threatened me but I didn't back down now why did during my do that we have a little bit of a boiling frog scenario just so exactly one year earlier during my did the same thing to a totally harmless and really boring guy on YouTube oh god what was his name he changed his name to something like astrological numismatics he was this guy passion and fruit that was his name of the time so there's this guy named passion and fruit who was really harmless and in Chiang Mai at that time during writer did exactly the same thing one year earlier threatened to have a gang of people beat him up blah blah blah and when you look into it this is actually behavior during writer has done again and again but the difference is in most cases durianrider was not in the same place as the people he was threatening so often you know they were just in two separate cities in Australia you know so whatever he was threatening somebody saying a gang of carved up people would come and beat them up and posting people's addresses on the internet so daxing them posting their private mission generator had done this again and again and nobody had put him in check during writer had seriously defamed people again again I'm a criminal act allegations against people again again nobody to put him in check and then I was the first person who actually stood up for myself and said no you want to beat me up ok see me when you see me where do you want to do this um where do you want to meet I don't mind you know I don't again I'm not trying to fight i'm trying to win but this cannot just be that goes on unchecked forever when he said so durianrider said he would take me to the police and he would charge me with a serious crime he pedophilia was in the list but he may just vaguely said some bunch of serious crimes you and I said ok let's meet you want to meet at the police station where do you want to meet if you're gonna report me to the police let's go let's do this you've threatened on the internet that you're going to put me in jail let's do it that was the situation that so you made serious criminal allegations guns me serious defamation serious threats of violence and I did stand up for myself I 110 percent stood up for myself so to have Jeff insulting me publicly in terms of where he started our private conversation Jeff saying that my problem is I should have stood up for myself and I like I didn't but like I should in the present tense that like I should standing up for myself and I'm not it's like Jeff you obviously don't know the basic facts of what happened whether that's because Jeff heard it from during writer or someone just as crazy just as dishonest or I don't know but it's like I think you could say the opposite you could fault me for standing up for myself too much if someone said that I'd be like okay that's a rational argument you know maybe when someone threatens to beat you up it makes false criminal allegations against you maybe you shouldn't say okay let's meet up see me too you know maybe my way of handling it nobody else handle that way and I did by the way at that time I got emails thanking me from other people whom durianrider had really bullied and victimized in the past and people need defamed in the past i did get family of people saying thank you you did what I couldn't do now you guys already know the end of the story the story ends with during writer totally think tout he was a coward during writer was a physical coward as well as an intellectual coward he never met me he never showed up he neither was willing to debate me or discuss things with me no he wasn't willing to patch things up positively nor was he willing to show up and and kick my ass put it that way it was a physical coward as well as intellectual coward the only reasonable request during right are made to me at that time okay I'm coming back to that Andrew I'm coming back to that one second sorry just live comments here um the only reasonable requests he made at the time was that I apologized to freely everything else he said was totally unreasonable um and I actually comply with that request there still is on my channel an apology video too freely which is an interesting and sincere video by the way it's not a game it's not I made a sincere video saying look your boyfriend or ex-boyfriend asked me to apologize to you so I'm going to do it because it makes the world a better place in a tiny tiny way and i'm always up to do something positive even if you don't deserve it because i made freely did not deserve an apology video but whatever during writers upset so he totally could have taken that as an out he could have taken that to say okay you apologized to freely let's make something positive happen but also if he wants to catch a fade if he wants to put his fist in my face i offered show up for that too right so there's a question here from from andrew sorry so what would it Andrew ask right so this Andrew I don't know if you just tuned in but I was saying I was addressing Jeff's original criticism me in two categories so one of them have just finished addressing one of them was the category of Jeff saying that I should have stood up for myself which it makes no sense but I can address that criticism but as I say we make more sense to complain that I stood up for myself too much I did stand up for myself and we're still going to court and stealth than ever I'll so it's still ongoing I didn't back down at any point on the contrary during writer back down so maybe during writers that should have stood up for himself if he actually believed in his own cause are believed in his own words but we all know he didn't we all know it was completely insincere from first to last um but the second category that you've just asked about is um why was it in Chiang Mai now I'd already answered that question the time but Jeff I don't think he watched a single video on my channel before defaming me um so Jeff you know when he asked well why were you in Chiang Mai anyway it was like well look there are already videos on my channel about that but also i can forward you an email it already written I have written an email several pages long that I sent to just a couple people who asked that question and that email explains exactly why i was in chiang mai when i was there why i arrived when I did why I left when I did because I left only a few days into the Chiang Mai festival I arrived before it started and I left just a few days into the proceedings so it's just not true I wasn't there in order to attend the festival and it everything to do with the job I had at the time and with paperwork I needed to do in order to start that job so the details are boring but you know I had to go to the hospital I had to get um I had to get tests done I had to get paperwork town for the Chinese government and then I had to start school i'm currently in school this is broadcasting to you now out of a school in kunming china so there's a very complete answer to that question and i already had it written up as an email that i sent to a couple other people and nobody I mentioned it's boring email but explains kabuto I was there had nothing to do with her murder I think it briefly alludes to also what I was doing in Chiang Mai before durianrider threatened my life and threatened to put me in prison etc sir is moving the suck and put my elbow on it um and that also i mean it's boring but like I went to the zoo I was doing videos related to animal rights I wasn't making videos about during writer I wasn't interested in writer and I was meeting up with people who were already my fans who were in Chiang Mai which there were tons of by the way there were lots of people there who did not support durianrider but he wanted to meet with me and again Chiang Mai's reporter my life for years and years I can talk about that at length or not but not a single person who's received that email now including Jeff Nelson nobody's written back to me and even asked a question nobody's even had a doubt like well I don't know um why are you nobody's even followed up with a question that email completely explains why i arrived in chiang mai when i did why left when i did and even what i was doing there before during writer made threats against me anyway and it's this stuff again real life is not dramatic real life is not a soap opera real life is full of exactly those kinds of details like I had to get paperwork done for the Chinese embassy and I've been going to Chiang Mai before during writer has I was already involved in this part of Southeast Asia dreams my research my career my language study I was I've been going to Chiang Mai well way over a decade it's been a normal part of my life so you know it's better question what does anyone else doing in Chiang Mai I don't who else speaks Thai I speak Thai with a very strong northern dialect accent because i'm mostly speaking lotion I've lived in Thailand I've lived in Laos this has been you know is really there's nothing surprising about me being in Chiang Mai to begin with and then whatever was there for this reason so i just mentioned sorry not don't want to digress from a digression but under that second category i was able to without even writing it out against a look Jeff if you want to know about this stuff you could have just asked me um and you didn't you never talked to you about this you went straight to defaming me publicly on the internet and one you never even watch the videos on my own channel that already explained the situation and to you never asked me to talk to me so this is really seventeen-year-old behavior knows we all know um Jeff's whole act is really he's still like a 16 year old girl I mean now I know this which at the time I didn't know him maybe if I knew him better the time I wouldn't have bothered maybe I would have just said Jeff you can hang guys you know I I don't want to deal with your I didn't know how immature he was he's shockingly immature for a grown man but Jeff's whole act was he was just manufacturing drama out of the stuff completely insincerely and he did as mentioned publicly you know defame me and insult me in this kind of derivative way on the internet and as they didn't even have the interest of watch it was already on my youtube channel let alone do anything else but whatever that's what we need to expect from a sixteen-year-old youtube or plenty of 16 year olds on youtube did exactly that so in some ways it's not surprising it's just surprising because he says 60 60 plus your old man so as i said before you expect the best about people you try to do something positive and in my case I'm not trying to do something positive to get views or get promotion I'm trying to do something positive because I really think about veganism as a political movement I'm thinking you know I'm thinking long term about trying to make the world a better place blah blah blah all right now Jeff recently has responded to me by doing the same thing has son did I don't know how old his son is Willie looks like a teenager he could be 21 for all I know but Jeff Nelson and his son Willie Nelson great name they just improvised the worst kind of defamation possible me that is made up garbage on the spot including and this is just hilarious to me like including claiming that I never went to university and including making statements about my divorce and my daughter saying I'm a divorced parent that I shouldn't have the legal right to see my own daughter really low now again if sixteen-year-old does this one thing Jeff's over 60 and he's doing it you know for no good reason so Jeff repeatedly gave me permission to read his email on the internet he didn't you see that privately did it publicly on a YouTube like he made statements on YouTube saying well I told izel to read out my email like to share my email and I don't see why he didn't do that and he did that because he felt he'd given me good advice he just one you want to show the good advice evening um I don't know if I'm gonna skip through this or read the whole thing but here's here's email I got from Jeff Nelson back on july 26th 2016 the first two sentences here are high izel thanks for your note period impressive cv period now in a sense that's the most important two sentences here one first part is thanks for your note so you can tell it's not a very long email sent before he calls it a note and he says impressive cv so Jeff is pretending he doesn't know that I've been to university he's pretending he doesn't know what kind of jobs I've had in the past he's pretending that I've been forever unemployed he's made up all this garbage that any 16 year old makeup and that his own sons and daughters are now making about me he's defaming the lowest most pathetic way possible but the reality is and he's also pretended that my emails to him were insane and they're not they're totally reasonable but the first thing he says here is oh thanks for your note impressive CV he's seen my CV you seen my resume he knows where I've been to University he knows what kind of jobs are done in the past and he founds it impressive that's his actual response when he's not pretending to be a fictional character on the internet to try to get views and attention like a teenager which like I say for a man his age is especially you know lacking and dignity but its lucky dignity for everyone if you're 16 you shouldn't do it either I think if you're 16 your parents should take you aside and explained to you what it is you're doing wrong when you when you engage in defamation that way okay so I'm gonna continue reading Jeff Nelson's email to me because again he gave me permission he encouraged me to share this suggests there's a question asking i think is this Precourt no hide everyone in the chat this is a live conversation um so Jeff's letter continues why I didn't write to you before is I have a life while you were having your drama I was in Hawaii helping my wife who is still recovering from a very serious accident last year she was run over by a truck spent a few weeks in the hospital had five surgeries has been going from wheelchair to Walker to cane to walking on her own and she was finally in good enough shape to get away and have a vacation for the first time in a long time so pause so they were on vacation Hawaii now it's blows my mind Jeff I'm sorry to hear that your wife had a car accident I am sorry to hear that that's sad but that has nothing to do with why right now ie right at the time this email is written you have defamed me and insulted me and made these demands on me because he liked demanded i explain why i'm in chiang mai at that time sorry past tense why I was in Chiang Mai at that time etc like why are you doing that the internet and in the way that he did why are you insulting me but using stupid lines like who put your big boy pants on and stand up for yourself he doesn't even know I did stand up for myself what are you talking about there is no connection and there is no justification between your wife being hit by a truck and this conduct in your part one doesn't explain the other not even in terms of the timeline because they're months apart I mean if you were apologizing to me which he's not saying I'm sorry I made some crazy statements the internet because I was so upset I did it at the same time as my wife being hit by a truck alright there's some connection it still doesn't really excuse your behavior but this is just the most meaningless excuse making if this was what a teenager said to their professor for why they turned in an essay late it would still be lame it would still be stupid but this is a man over 60 years old explaining to me why he's defamed me on the internet why he's picked a fight with me on the internet and also why he took durianrider side at a time when no supporting durianrider at a time when even vegan gains who before that was close friends with derm vegan gains stood up and said during rider this is the line you're crossing the line and that was the role of every moral self-respecting vegan personality on youtube at that time was to stand up and be counted so look there is a line were against this kind of violence were against this kind of defamation and Jeff Nelson went to the opposite extreme and just showed he's willing to back up during writers will get him an extra five thousand views that's it so I mean some people stood up into the right thing some people sat down and did nothing and some people like Jeff just showed that they were Fame which is how Jeff conduct himself and Jeff if you're a Fame the fact that your wife got hit by a truck just months prior has nothing to do with it the jury was need much higher so so a very long time earlier a year earlier she was hit by a truck and whatever four months before this message she was still going through recovery fine but how is this explain your behavior how does explain even why your content of this email your writing email but he's writing to me and I already sent him an email providing explanation for why I was in Chiang Mai at that time I was going on in my life which again why are you demanding this from me this way ridiculous but anyway I continue reading Jeff's message here he says so I wasn't exactly spending a lot of time on the web mostly just checking in from time to time on my email and tumblr period okay again fine this is the same thing with happy healthy vegan and others don't say well I haven't seen any of your videos but don't say well I didn't actually watch what eyes'll said about happened what happened in Chiang Mai but based on my having watched five minutes of what durianrider said here's my opinion is ridiculous and again whether you're 16 years old six years old okay great explanation Jeff so over this period of months you came to the conclusion that I was in the wrong when again even people like vegan gains figured out that I was in the right Jeff didn't this is the approach you took it's not an excuse Jeff before you take that position you could take the time to watch the one video on my channel that for example in just a couple of minutes shows the screenshots of what durianrider said to me the threats he made the defamation that he was going to be me up take me to the police station centers you didn't even do that Jeff you just decided to strike a pose to see if you get some attention on the net like a teenager so Jeff's right some really insulting stuff to me here for no reason he says is any of this registering with you izel ? or are you just going to ignore and go back to thinking about yourself and whatever it is you want very insulting very teenage language for no reason because Jeff you never stepped up with me you insulted me publicly for no good reason and i replied by providing you with the answers to your questions even though they were unreasonable one what was i doing in chiang mai to why didn't i stand up for myself the answers i did stand up for myself because he didn't know the basic facts of the case and this is his response it's really insulting and stupid and childish alright um maybe my wife and that situation is more important than you and your situation that's what Jeff says Jeff I didn't ask you to get involved you insulted me publicly on the Internet if your wife is more important that would explain why you said nothing but you started this fight with me and you are feeling to recognize that you're pretending I started something with you when I didn't he continues this is all obviously super important to you so I could ask you the same thing you asked me why didn't you email me sooner if you felt that was so important your situation I hate this gonna go well this is all super pretty dude I did a fundraiser I raised more than 6,500 dollars in one day for all of veganism that's really an interesting landmark that's pretty important that's pretty interesting a whole bunch of people stood up and said during Ryder here's the line you crossed the line and they were going to donate money to my legal fund to take him to court just to demonstrate that point and Jeff you weren't one of them that's okay you can say nothing but why insult me and defame me on the internet because now he's really gotten into you know totally ludicrous defamation um anyway so you know there's some other insulting nonsense here I just feel like skipping over cuz it just stuff that makes no sense um so I mean like he says something he says like guilt by association is abominable what are you trying to say Jeff do you think I'm treating you as guilty by association I never getting this stuff to you Jeff I never came at you you came at me anyway he then says anyhow I'd rather communicate with you when you've cooled down if you're interested in anything that I have to say I really don't want to do a skype because I don't know you I don't know if it would be taped or whatever but it doesn't establish a lot of trust when you write to me I respond and then discover you've done a silly video about me which i'm not going to watch again i love this self-righteous thing of like oh well i haven't watched any videos on your channel but great if there's something specific you want to talk to me about and not just vent why don't you give that a shot this is the the brilliance of Jeff Nelson so I mean you know the guy started this thing with me on the net I could read my reply to him but I mean the fundamental thing is talking to Jeff Nelson this way he was just too stupid to understand what was going on the whole the reality of the situation was before he communicated with me privately he was too stupid to know what happened in Chiang Mai what during writer did why hundreds of people donated money to my legal cause why so many people including vegan gains stood up and sport he did not know what happened and he struck a pose on it he tried to make an extreme you know edgy statement just to get views and attention and he insulted me and then after I replied to him after I gave him reasonable answers to his unreasonable questions he was still just too stupid to know what was going on um anyway I could read my reply to him I mean I'm just going to pull out a sentence here because I wrote a reply to that message I sent out to him you made two videos that directly pertain to durianrider freely and myself two of them so you cannot say that you don't have time or that you're not involved it cetera just positive if your point is you're constantly taking care of your your wife who got hit by a truck you have time to make multiple videos addressing this issue but not to watch the videos on my channel that even say what the issue was or what happened he had already made it this one two videos on this topic so I said you know I never lifted a finger to make you involve that was a decision you made he made the decision to get involved and yes again your response is and you disrespected me repeatedly both in the video and in written comments those are decisions you made as a grown man I didn't ask him to get involved I didn't do anything that involved him he chose to get involved and he put in the time and effort to at this point already make two videos and he made written comments on YouTube and on his blogs etc I had nothing to do with that he again I think he was just like a teenager trying to get attention trying to get views without even figure what situation was I then say further I'm again I'm just taking a quote from this email I said you have chosen consistently in public statements to trivialize what durianrider did serious crimes seriously bad for veganism apart from being seriously bad for myself personally you have made lame excuses and you have been dismissive contemptuous and insulting toward me publicly I realize that has the potential to change right now and that the emails you're sending me are much more thoughtful by contrast and I appreciate that however I'm being honest about the basis were working from so just I'll leave it there but even that statement it shows how reasonable I'm willing to be in trying to build something positive people whether we're talking about vegan Ava or Jeff or any of these people what says look actually this even true about close the guy does plant-based news when I talk to close I said look the point is not that I'm complaining you know this can move forward positively we can work together positively but it's going to start by being me being honest with you about the basis that we're working from now so the basis is you've insulted me publicly on the internet or you've believed a bunch of lies that during writers said without questioning them or like in Jeff's case the basis is that you continue to make videos attacking me and about my situation without watching the videos that are my channel first or without talking to me privately etc etc that's the basis we're going to move forward from now okay we're talking to a 60 year old man man over 60 maybe I'm wildly optimistic to think hey maybe he can set this aside and work forward positively it would have been the easiest thing in the world for Jeff to write back to that and say hey you know what you're right I was misinformed Jeff could have written back and said hey you know what um I believed a bunch of rumors and lies in the Internet including what during writer said you're right and you know what what's really important here is veganism and I've taken the time and looked at some of the videos on your channel on a ballast yell and I realize you're making real content that's really about veganism it's not just about drama or it's not just about rumors and gossip and nonsense he could have taken the time and said hey I realized that people like vegan gains stepped up and made the decision to support you for good reason I realized that people donated 6500 your legal fund through his hey you know what this is a real situation and I stumbled into it without knowing what was going on and I made some videos that just don't really make any sense and I'm sorry for a man over 60 that's not asking a lot I'm SD this is not some new and unseen level of maturity for him to be capable of but as we all know Jeff never did that on the contrary he really doubled down on defaming me and ultimately on supporting durianrider of saying during writers write in a situation where nobody familiar with the facts nobody you've seen the one video on my channel giving you the screenshots of just what durianrider said nobody sports with your reminder did defamation is wrong it's bad for me it's bad for the movement it's bad for veganism it's bad for YouTube thank you defamation as a crime we're talking about criminal defamation is bad and it's wrong we're not even going to debate that right um threats of violence are bad and they're wrong and during writer had done that again and again I wasn't his first victim I probably won't be his last so there was an outright call to say um we need to draw the line we need to stand up and say no more because durianrider is going to keep doing this until someone stands up and says you can't do it anymore because durianrider from his own perspective was making money and getting Fame and getting attention and getting the approval of people like Jeff Nelson by engaging in defamation and threats of violence and that's why the fundraiser was cold vegans against violence and defamation and again I I had no interest in asking Jeff Nelson decide to stand up and make it a statement in support of my cause I never heard of the guy at that point I didn't recognize the name couldn't care less but Jeff he it's not just that he didn't support it it's not just that he was silent he went on the other extreme where he thought this was his chance to stunt this is his chance to get a little bit of attention from the young folks to be young and hip and trendy up by insulting me so that's it guys that's the whole backstory and the problem is with someone like Jeff when I talk to him I assumed he was being sincere I assumed that when he asked me well what were you doing in Chiang Mai anyway I assume that was sincere interest and if it was then when he got the factual answer to the question that would have changed his position in perspective this is a difference between a troll and dealing with the sincere person in politics right but when I provided the answer that question and he recognized it was factional he recognized that was in the right it changed nothing Jeff continued being a complete dishonest drama mongering after he had the facts provided to him that he requests and getting requests them by emailing me he requested them by insulting me public so that's who jeff is and that's the game he's playing and his kids are playing the same game and worse under his tutelage which is really very sad on vegan cheetahs Channel I saw Jeff's son Willie seriously engaging in defamation against me you know defamation by the criminal definition of defamation I don't mean serious and sensitive was I mean he was joking around obviously he was just making stuff out of his head if you were Jeff yeah hi soy I'm talking about you have Nelson if you are Jeff Nelson if you are this young man's son it is absolutely your role to take your son aside and say look you can't do this it's a crime it's immoral it's harms people it's bad for you it's bad for the person you're defaming it's bad for veganism as a movement it's even bad for YouTube as a medium this is bad and it's wrong and you have to stop that's what a father should do a father over 60 years old but Jeff Nelson can never tell his son that because Jeff Nelson himself is engaged in exactly the same game he's acting like a chicken headed teenager he's acting like a complete and doing the same thing and just making up defamation and insults off the top of his head both in situations where he knows nothing about what's going on and in this situation where he's lying about what I said to him an email what he said to me an email he's lying about my job my career my divorce my relationship with my own daughter he's Jeff Nelson himself as the father is going for the lowest of the low level of defamation so what do you expect his son to do son is just as bad or worse that is really sad to see now in terms of his relationship with his daughters um you know I do think to put it bluntly that if your daughter's if you're wealthy as Jeff boasts he is he's very proud he's very happy to boast of how much money he's got if you're wealthy your daughters should not be doing a commercial for Taco Bell I can understand if it's straight up poverty and you just own it I would totally sympathize if someone who was vegan came on the internet and just said hey they're vegan but they're flat broke and they had no choice but to work at McDonald's or do an advertisement for donald's I'd say yo I respect the player respect with respect the game I respect the struggle and that's it poverty is poverty people do not have a better choice no better option but we all know that's not true about Jeff Jeff is boasting even while he's insulting me about richness so why are your daughters given their status as leaguers leaders in the vegan community leaders who don't believe in ethical veganism leaders who don't believe in cruelty-free veganism I mean it just had those clips in that video their figures who are making statements that marked them out as being almost aunty vegan or anti ethical veganism there I guess their dietary vegans or whatever you want to say I guess they're just plant-based why do you have your daughter's prostituting themselves in videos like the lake my body challenge if you're rich why do you have your daughter's selling out the core tenets of veganism by making an advertisement for Taco Bell yes I think that's shameful yes I think that's something meaningful to engage in critique of and I'm not the first to do it not going to be the last and I've heard Jeff's reply to that I've unlike Jeff I don't come on say oh well I haven't seen anything on his channel but here's my pin no I've heard Jeff's explanation and F Ferdinand Randy's explanation and you know my steez I'm keeping it real to me their explanation is garbage whereas as i said if someone just came out and talked about straight up poverty course i would understand that and there were vegans in the military and there are vegans who work at McDonald's I've talked to all kinds of vegans who do struggle with poverty or limited money and ye'll I myself I know you guys don't want to hear it but contradicted too many rumors I'm not affluent it is hard for me to feed myself even here in China and it was hard in Saskatchewan it was hard at many places live I know that struggle but this is not about the struggle sadly this is about a man who's had an incredibly negative impact on veganism as a movement in the past couple of years and he's still having a negative impact and he's creating conflict and drama out and nothing because he's more than 60 years old but he still has the mentality of a teenager and some of the most direct influence we've seen him have is on his own son and on his own daughters and then the impact they have on veganism so no I'm not about to apologize for questioning that I'm not about to apologize for bringing that issue forward also not about to apologize to the fact that at a time when Jeff had insulted me on the internet repeatedly months ago I still approached him with an open mind and an open heart to see if we could make something positive happen when people do insult me in the internet again and again even vegan Ava even terrible people said terrible things about me and suddenly as well me and my daughter and my ex-wife people have taken it all the way low I still do a person with an open heart open mind for the cause to see if to see if something positive can come from it but with people like Jeff a lot of the time to answer is simply no