Two Vegans: whole, unedited conversation / podcast.

I'm on the line with captain Weiner or
is that name already taken how shall I uh shall I refer to you great I can call you captain for short um so your channels people don't know if you just glance at your channel let's say a lot of the emphasis is on fitness and health and I'd say you're taking like like like myself you're someone who not only doesn't pretend to be a professional athlete athlete you emphasize the extent to which you're a normal person and not a professional athlete in the extent to which your advice is compatible with the normal lives of normal people of full-time jobs would that would that be fair to say or so anyway obviously you have a list of questions you want to ask me which is great but I mean I'm assuming you turned the corner at some point and decided that you wanted to paint a bunch of slogans on the wall of you're the host of your garage and and set up a home gym you know can I just ask what was the inspiration for that specifically you know just because most people do work out at a gym or you know or don't don't work out at all so what what for you what made you interested in making that kind of commitment all right so like somewhat of an inspiration from Tony Horton of p90x and Scooby of the earlier years of YouTube where he would tell you that Fitness is free and that you don't have to go to a gym you can get fit at home but I remember that guy I remember that guy yeah go on it's become more of a convenience thing where I don't want to carry a new set of clothes I don't want to drive ten minutes to the gym I just want to work out get my stuff done go back upstairs take a shower and be on my way right but as far as like the inspiration for doing these kinds of workouts it's nothing special and I feel like most people need to understand that you're not gonna get a six pack in three months right I mean if you do like crazy genetics or whatever you know whatever the reason is good I'll be eating but I'm just trying to be realistic here and that if you want allistic result is gonna take a long time I eat one year or more right so I just want to remind people that we're average people some of us below average it takes us a while to do one pull-up it takes other people a long time to do five push-ups if you can't look up a standard 135 pounds that's fine just know just show up you don't have to show up and go or just show up and eventually you'll get to where you need to be well I've just gone through that process with my girlfriend Melissa I might as well have been her personal trainer for the last year and a half or coming up on two years now when she first met me she had literally never lifted any weight in her life she never had any fun yeah nothing and her muscular development was at a really really low level in terms of just being so one of the exercise of a fan of is the upright row people man but it's a very simple exercise where you're lifting the bar and so when we were starting with exercise like that she couldn't do one wrap with the bar she couldn't really do arm curls with five film weights you know and so we were really starting from zero we really was like rehabilitating a disabled person in some ways and but the difference is she's not disabled you know very rapidly she did make progress I think she is still not able to do one pushup or one chin up however you know those hair does her body wood exercises but yeah I've seen her come a long long way so that's that was interesting I never had any experience like that before I've never been anybody's personal trainer and yeah I would say the one thing I wanna say before we move on I don't think this is gonna be really a fitness related discussion but you know I think it's really easy for people to say that exercise and life should not be two separate things the exercise should just be part of your life but in the 21st century that's true for a very small percentage of the population so you've watched my channel as I always mentioned that I used to live in Laos and Cambodia I've lived in other places that get mentioned less often I very rarely say oh I used to live in Hong Kong it's also true anyway um you know I did meet people in Laos who really had such physically tough jobs like really really hard work in agriculture one guy who literally carried sacks of concrete on his shoulder for a living who built up unbelievable physical strain doing those jobs you know and you could even tell when you shook their hand the amount of strength in the forearm you know was up there but I mean today in 2018 that that's you know in in Canada or the United States or Western Europe an insignificant number of people have exercised as part of their jobs and part of their daily life right so we have to make these kinds of decisions whether the right thing for you is to have a gym at home get some weights or whatever or you know I've had times in my life either times my life when I worked out using five liter bottles of water I had no gym I had no way of working out and I'd get some big jugs of water and I do you know different kinds of presses and lifts with those and there'd be a small mountain or something nearby that run up and down that mountain when I was just living in China now there was a staircase there are some videos showing this is this big big staircase leading up to the university it's really just like a decorative staircase and I'd repeatedly run up and down those those stairs stone stairs you know you know I find I find ways to work in it but yeah but again the point being I'm not an athlete I'm not an Instagram model you know right that's this is yeah this is this is my middle age I'm now 40 years old but yeah I don't look like any of my relatives when they were 40 years old she just looked back one generation look at any of my blood relations what they look like at 40 it's a huge huge difference so and I think a very large majority of the population well those that are just right I don't think it's what you real Montag on this interview I mean that all of this is happening in the shadow of the the steroids phenomenon I was gonna say steroids epidemic but um you know when I was in in China so I don't lift that heavy because I don't I don't want to push my luck and get injured currently i benchpress 230 pounds i'm gonna repeat not kilograms pounds because i'm in canada 2 or 30 pounds but you know when i was in china there were these guys who were lifting 1/4 and 1/5 of what i lift like really really light lifts and with these huge round muscles and you know i just thought what's what's going on with that and you know i was working up so regularly the geometry is that oh they're doing something else and they're working I'm not seeing like you know like when I'm when I'm not here they must be really lifting heavy weights it's like and no I mean it you know again I saw the same guys repeatedly over over time it's it's steroids I mean that's that's what it is all right when you're on juice you can lift 50 pounds and still have those those kinds of big big projecting bulging muscles and that's really what's called the movie star or look is you know people who don't push the limits with steroids people are not bodybuilders if you got those results and yeah as soon as I figured that out I realized why steroids are such an epidemic the Stara the stereotype is like an Olympic athlete with with steroids you know working really really hard and then using steroids to get an extra 5% out of your performance but that's not the epidemic the epidemic is millions of people using steroids and being lazy that's appealing that's the feeling using steroids and not working out hard and getting getting those kinds of results so yeah and for the next generation I mean it's it's sad but I can't I can't imagine the genie going back in the bottle I think like like cocaine and heroin this is gonna become a permanent part of our drug landscape so yeah going forward I think that's the other challenge with Fitness being part of life right is is a commitment one way or another to be clean and what that what that really means yeah way into what we're gonna be discussing and if I'm a I'm going to be pulling up the the topics of discussion for today so for those of you guys that have made it this far I'm probably going to timestamp all of these but so that they want to skip through or don't want to hear anything else the topics of discussion for today are going to be effective vegan activism and not effective or ineffective vegan activism the other topic of discussion we're going to be talking about is carnivore dieters in specific vegetable police and kasumi Chris a couple others might show up to my favorite people discussion mental and physical health issues among vegans and it's just something for a little bit of fun maybe a little controversy social and psychological effects of video yeah sure so I hope you guys make it through we don't know how long this discussion might last it could be an hour two maybe even three but we're just going to see how this rolls the timestamps will be in the description and I said why don't you kick us off since you have a lot of knowledge on vegan activism seeing that you are you've been around the scene yeah and you know what good and bad looks like well I remember I had I had a conversation with Isaac recently I saw Isaac's YouTube name is ask yourself and he was talking about direct action everywhere so I think there's a playlist of like 30 videos criticizing direct action everywhere I can check but it is one of the playlist with the most videos of any post on my channel I remember something Isaac said to me very unpretentiously a very down-to-earth way which is I think true both of us he said you know look I so I think that both you and I are very reluctant to just say [Music] this is bad for veganism it's so intellectually lazy it's kind of too easy to just dismiss something as being quote unquote bad for veganism and we're critical of other youtubers when they do that so you really have been in the past that was more like 2016 used to be that YouTube channels were piled up with people pointing the finger and saying this person is bad for veganism and people have done it to me of course people point the finger at me and said that I'm bad for veganism because basically I asked some inconvenient philosophical questions and sometimes come to difficult and conflicting answers to them um but sure there is some point in which you have to start making judgments about what is good and bad for veganism and ultimately what is a waste of your time so you know direct action everywhere is the easy case study to point to for looking at effective and ineffective activism and the irony is they were founded by guy named Wayne Siong they were founded with the resolution to scientifically advanced vegan activism by examining what works and what doesn't with social science methods and that they would throw away the vestiges of the past they would throw away standing on a street corner with pamphlets and free vegan muffins giving muffins and pamphlets to people to spread veganism that way that their research and new scientific findings we're going to open up the golden path to a brighter future in vegan activism now what we've seen as they pursue down that golden path our many aberrations including you know trying to interrupt Bernie Sanders when Bernie Sanders is doing a public rally trying to interrupt Hillary Clinton trying to run on to a baseball field with a banner telling people to go vegan and then immediately being pounced on by the police these are all real examples them getting arrested and beat up trying to disrupt disrupt is their key term rodeos as I say baseball games public events political events that have nothing to do with them so we've seen them go down a bumpy road of showing us all the things not to do in vkontakte vism so that's one case study where you know we're examining these things and asking these questions you know in that case I think you're far enough over the line in a number of ways that you know you can say look this is a bad for veganism and if my own sister or brother were asking me for advice if they wanted to join direct action everywhere I would really urge them not to now you know other other discussions on the channel though are not as black and white start don't worry you have to talk what he's gonna say but you know in my discussion but contrast my discussion of what is and isn't effective about the so-called cube of truth movement you know that's more in a gray area were ultimately my conclusion is this is a waste of your time this is poorly organized the particular guy in charge is no good but these problems are not so fundamental direct action everywhere they're also questions of them breaking laws and doing things that are illegal and getting themselves put in prison and facing criminal charges I do not think anyone going to jail is an effective form of activism so we are more talking with those hard issues and those issues don't exist in the context of offering criticism of the cube of truth method so yeah that's all I'd say not all of this criticism is equally loaded but precisely and engaging those discussions I think everyone involved everyone in the audience everyone is going to ask those questions along with me they end up looking at their own lives what's possible and practicable what they can do to save the planet to do something positive for the vegan movement and we I think people come up with new and creative approaches because they engage in that critique so I like the fact that you brought up the discussion you had with Isaac because you guys are not quick to point a finger you think twice before you criticize judge or even you know a little a person that's giving I think that's one of those things like okay so you brought up the case study right well that's important for the audience to know what I kind of wanted to hear was more of like your personal thoughts on where vegan activism is today and like some examples that you see that you believe are ineffective or effective because I'm gonna I'm willing to provide an example from me but that's going to be later on but you won't you mention in many of your videos now there are some people that take these permanent vacations we already receive donations from their supporters on patreon and they take that money and they spend it you know on vacation on specific foods when they could be donating it to a different charity or they could be using their resources a lot better yeah or or then you have the opposite side where there are people I think it was in the earthling Edie vegan March in London where he said that they're gonna take no days off that's right I remember that no days off right College one I mean it was like really funny but at the same time it was scary because you have these people telling you that they're gonna take no days off and then there's the people who taking every day off of it that way yes look I mean the the easy example of something good I can point to they're not perfect is PCRM so that is an acronym for Physicians Committee for Responsible medicine so when people say they want a concrete example of something within veganism that's positive I point to PCRM and I say look what we need are five or six other organizations like PCRM so I'll say a little bit more about why that is in a moment will you outside of veganism I also point to groups like Mothers Against Drunk Driving and I point to the history the historical success of the gay rights movement so within my lifetime those are two really successful really powerful you know movements and type types of organizations in one case it's a unique organization and they don't use tax at tactics like direct action everywhere Mothers Against Drunk Driving does not show up at a beer store and start screaming at people and saying don't you realize my son died in a car accident or this kind of thing they don't put on this kind of spectacle they don't interrupt a baseball game and say how can you people drink alcohol don't you know what causes brain damage by the way alcohol literally causes brain damage just to mention there actually is a sense of urgency and you know I have you know I just met you I have my father add nine kids so I have you know brothers who some of them I think were born about as smart as I am and after many years of use of drugs and alcohol moderate use none of them are considered alcoholics they're not so bright anymore so you know I mean the the the toll that alcohol takes is very real and I'm you know I'm partly joking but it's not hard to imagine an anti alcohol movement that would use some of these tactics that vegans are infamous for frankly the people ridicule us for it's easy to imagine me so passionate about you know getting rid of alcohol or drunk driving specifically do that so these are highly professional highly effective example sorry so I should say so I mentioned mother's cancer of driving I mentioned PCRM and within the gay rights movement I'm not talking about people marching naked and throwing parties in this kind of thing especially I think it's important to recognize there was a professionalized and legal element of that struggle in that challenge which we are really lacking in veganism by contrast now that's not the whole I mean you know gay rights involved also did involve a lot of naked partying and it's this kind of thing there were other elements but that's not particularly what I'm what I'm alluding to here I point out in my video on community you know it was this phenomenon where you know if the Chief of Police made homophobic remarks the newspapers would know to phone up and we're gonna get is a ssin there were these various gay lobby members and get their response to the homophobic remarks made by the police commissioner's line that was ongoing for decades but the existence of those organizations those more professional gay rights organizations and the fact that the newspaper knew to call them and that their opinion mattered that's a kind of legitimacy and level of organization that veganism is largely lacking the exception the easy exception unit being PCRM so PCRM are engaged in lobbying the government on a variety of issues some of them are more ethically defined animal rights issues some of them are more clearly defined in terms of science and their form of activism does involve paying lawyers to take people to court it does involve you know challenging misinformation that promotes the dairy industry and egg industry is healthy and that kind of thing so I think that's a disruption of a very different kind and disputing whether or not government guidelines on diet and that kind of thing are healthy but they do actually include vegan ethics in their remit and this came up in a very different discussion we're talking about race and ethnicity within veganism but they are ultimately a somewhat elitist organization I am you know III I'm noting that as something for criticism or something we're not that we should criticize PCRF that creates opportunities for other people do this PCRM is predominantly white wealthy people with diplomas in the medical sciences well how about you know an organization taking on the same issues in the same way that's predominantly Chinese people from Los Angeles I was just in Los Angeles there are suburbs there that are 40% Chinese how about an organization that's predominantly Hispanic people from San Diego and so on and so forth there were a million other constituencies that could get organized to make a difference this way on one issue or another how about or an organization like PCRM that just deals with leather health impacts of leather ecology of leather or even the economics of leather and saying hey as a society we need to transition away from being a leather based society and again regardless of the ethnicity or affluence of the people involved that you could have the founding members leading could be former workers in the leather industry leather tanning industry who know ho toxic and dangerous the chemicals are you know whatever could be drawn from any stroke but my point is not to say that it's a bad thing that PCRM is predominantly of this wealthy white character but the point out there are opportunities to get organized and give a voice to a lot of other segments of vegan society or even just ecologically concerned society you could organize a movement that was entirely fishermen or or X fishermen dealing you know if you can approach to the fishing industry and devastation in the ecological devastation of the oceans and that might be predominantly white people on the east coast of Canada and Halifax or something you know again my point is not to simplify a kind of ethnic stereotype here but to recognize you know the kind of nuanced local and global challenge that we're facing moving forward that's the most positive answer I can give you and it would be a lot you know be a lot easier for me to give a kind of cynical response and say that I don't see anything positive happening anywhere there's obviously it's a lot easier to find bad than it is to find good but people that are really putting in an effort but you know results because it's easy to like I mean I know there was that whole huge debacle like what two three years ago with freelee and durianrider you know I mean I'm not gonna sit there and say I never liked them because they did make people go vegan so at the very least I have to give them credit to that but as far as like their diets are concerned as far as like the message that they're spreading across it's coming off real cult-like and I don't feel like that's very positive it's not to say that it's negative but I don't see it helping the vegan movement and like we need to address you know issues like that coming into the future well right but but also I think it's also now kind of over I mean it ended in failure I mean that's you know again I'm not saying that in a boastful way but thanks yeah I would say it's now over I mean it fizzled out and say 2017 the metaphor it's a tiny shadow of its of its former self so it was huge in 2015-2016 and then fell apart and you know this this wouldn't be said about other moments but if we really want to go big the single biggest in the world is what's known in America is the Loving Hut the Loving Hut is the world's largest chain of vegan restaurants and it is indeed run by a new religion I'm saying new religion and not cult it's run by a new religion which is called the supreme master Ching hai foundation or supreme master Ching hai group the followers of supreme master Ching hai which doesn't sound like a cult at all no it's a new religion so I think a lot of people if you just go to Wikipedia or just do a little bit of looking into who is behind Loving Hut you're gonna be a bit shocked um Loving Hut is huge it's here to stay it's lasting they have at least two cable TV channels or satellite TV channels but they're real like the 24-hour broadcasting channels in many languages so you know they have that they have a kind of footprint the frankly it's way more impressive than anything peda has ever done People for the Ethical Treatment of Wayne People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals is big but the loving hut hut group the supreme master Ching hai group is much bigger and emotionally the Specht of what they do that appeals to me most is the anti-war advocacy so they've linked veganism which is natural but different people link it to different things they've linked it to criticism of how many people are being killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and Syria and all these conflicts so they link it to an anti-war message which is can be very emotionally powerful in terms of watching their their video propagandist now unfortunately their beliefs are magical and insane I do not believe in breatharianism I do not believe that you know they believe in a whole crazy scheme of karma and reincarnation and that magically the reason why you don't starve to death when you're on this breatharian diet is that there were gods and I think if it was the ninth level of heaven or the seventh level of heaven who put a tube down and magically feed you and you know they they believe in a whole you know constellation of crazy stuff and this is you know I'm not making this up you can watch on their own TV channel you can see what the supreme master herself says what it is their religion consists of so that's if you want to go big that's big and then if you want to go small I mean I do think it's worthwhile to point to some of these other youtubers and these people on YouTube and say hey this is to quote the rapper 50 cent you've been hustling a long time and you ain't got nothing so you know somebody really inoffensive like Ryan and Angie from happy healthy vegan they do offend me but whatever I've had my conflict with them okay well you guys had all the money and all these advantages being based in LA yeah this audience has done this what have you accomplished in the last five years and now what are you gonna accomplish in the next five years I think we all know the answer is nothing unnatural vegan many of these other people have criticized I really think they're they're going nowhere even though they have a kind of veneer of success so those are problems and I think that comment I made would also apply to freelee and durianrider there's a lot there are a lot of other things wrong with freelee and durianrider also but you know they they briefly had this movement organized in Chiangmai I was there it was only a few dozen people but that's all and so on so again what did they accomplish in the last five years what are they going to accomplish in the next five years it's it's pretty grim particulars and I understand that there is a smaller scale of things you bring up Angie and Ryan and you bring up unnatural vegan now here's the deal with what I see with them right like again I take no offense because I think that it's important that we learned from all aspects sure we might disagree on some points it's always nice to hear the other side but the question that gets raised with these particular youtubers and there's many like them right you see them all the time and honestly it's kind of crunchy because you see them do these what I eat in a day videos they play the same music they're eating the same foods and they're just basically advocating their lifestyle right which is fine there's no harm in that you have every right to do so but as a vegan like the question that I wanted to ask is is being vegan enough right like we look at it as a social political philosophical movement to end all of animal exploitation and cruelty and I know that we're doing our part by not eating animals or a tear you know they're byproducts like milk and cheese and whatnot but is that enough or should we be taking more of a stance right so you see how in phrasing the question you are input the answer no a core of course is not enough and we would say the same about gay rights this is a great occasions is it enough to just be gay is it enough to live in Saudi Arabia right now and just be gay is it enough let's be want to just suck dick it's not enough it's never gonna be enough to just suck dick it's never gonna be enough and we can all we can all pat ourselves on the back and feel like heroes for sucking each other's dicks and at some point you got to say no you know what we actually need a political movement we actually need some kind of you know whether it's through lobbying government or protest we have to get organized right ultimately this is a political and democratic struggle and of course in Saudi Arabia it's also a religious struggle even here in Canada it was a religious struggle to some extent it was a struggle that took place within the Anglican Church and Catholic Church but I mean those those churches aren't that powerful in Canada compared to a you know majority Muslim countries the role of religion there but regardless it's still a really just struggle in Israel too by the way just to just to give fair recognition that it's not it's not particularly easy gay rights in Israel um so no your own consumption your own sex life your own private life so it's never enough now the only caveat I put is it not everybody can do it yeah I've all my life I've known disabled people they're serving me I'm not gonna say I have a lot of disabled friends at the moment different times of my life I've had friends who were disabled to different extents there are people who can't really do anything just because they're physically disabled they're people who can't really do anything to do extreme poverty my own economic situation is pretty dire I'm very limited in what I can do bime economic situation I can't just fly to London and attend a conference in London England or something these are every everything I do is a big decision financially but the question is and this is my way of posing it if not you then who and it's different right it can't be everyone I'm you know I say this about different kinds of political and social movements you know why you still learn Korean a Jib way and want to bring back those languages I used to do humanitarian work in Cambodia not everybody can do humanitarian work in Cambodia not everybody can study Korean ejoyed notes right but somebody has to and the question is if not you then who and it gets pretty surreal when you're looking at someone who's who's ostensibly devoted their lives to the vegan movement ostensibly like Angie and Ryan from happy healthy vegan like a natural vegan also known as Swasey when you look at somebody like that and they're not doing it well if not you then who you're a full time vegan activist you're being paid I don't know Mike the vegan anyone what are you doing with this money and leisure and you know platform and connections and network and power you have some degree of you know money power and respect if not you then who so that's when it gets really weird and you know there are there are some people who I think are trying to do everything they can I I'm not you know cynical about Earthling I think he probably is gonna adapt and find new ways to be a vegan activist I think he'll get bored of having the same conversation on the sidewalk again and again I think people will go on to either professionalize or specialize or or or do something better but yeah so the but the direct answer your question is no it's never just enough to be vegan it can't possibly be we all know that too just as it's different in Saudi Arabia and in Canada there is a cultural and political question of context what you can do not you as an abstract but you if you're an architect if you're a musician if you're unemployed they're different if you're disabled sure there are constraints but then finally within the talent pool we got the limited talent pool of people who are committed vegans if not you then who if you can't make this sacrifice now and I have one vegan friend she wants to do who hill activism and she thinks she's gonna start when she's 55 because she says look I have so many decades raising my kids and then I have to do this then after that but she predicts you'll have enough money and leisure free time and free money to really do activism when she's in her 50s in the world and see how we can work and you know I admire that it's just like me I'm trying to make the earth like you know don't go off on me but I'm trying to make the effort to do vegan activism more often than not right I'm just trying to do my part by spreading the word at my school and my university all that stuff and I know it's not enough like not nearly enough as what I could normally do but again things come into play like supporting my family transportation these sorts of things right like I'm not going out and trying to buy the fanciest piece of our article of clothing right like I take my money and I'm gonna spend it accordingly it goes down to a point where I deny I deny buying my family animal products when they want to eat it you know it's their money I'm gonna be like no if if you want me to go buy it you go drive to the store I know it's five minutes away I can easily do it you're still gonna get it but I want them to go through that struggle no yo spine I just got you ever there I'm six foot three when I go grocery shopping people sometimes asked me to take things down off the she'll for them it's cute I'm self-effacing you butter so I say oh no I couldn't possibly and they say what do you what do you mean you're tall you can reach it I you know it's on the top shelf no no no no it's not that I'm short I'm vegan so I gotta make a joke of it but I joke is real I don't do it I don't just you know it doesn't bring up positive connotations there's some negative things and emotions and whatnot but I have a friend of mine who subscribe to my youtube channel after I had a discussion with vegan games and oh my god this girl if if there was a day if there was a word passionate you looked up the definition it's her so I follow her on Instagram her name is Maria by the way so she'll probably watch this discussion if she's watching this she'll know I'm talking about her she's from Sweden and in Sweden they fight for a lot of different social causes so apparently there's like a huge presence of Nazis I was not aware of that until she brought it to my attention so she fights against Nazism she fights against a you know animal products industry all that all that fun stuff and one thing I noticed every single day I kid you not she's out and about on the streets at an animal farm at at the at the factory farms she's out there and she's spreading the message and she's showing me video she's shown pictures where the police have gotten involved and had to be escorted she tells me how they tipped down deer hunting stands where they hunt deer she hates hunters and it's crazy like the one thing that she's super adamant about these stickers that she makes so the way she travels is sure you should use public transportation she'll take these stickers everywhere she goes like a stack a good stack of like 100-200 stickers start pasting them everywhere go vegan go vegan go vegan she's basically like leaving good print dude it's not just her like it's obviously it's a group and whatnot so I admire that activism because when I see your videos in these people taking vacations this car was not taking a vacation well she is literally spending every minute of her life fighting for the animals and fighting for the cause environmentally I don't think she really cares about health even though she does yoga I also done the same I don't really care about health we're going yeah yeah yeah yes like she's fighting in every way shape and form for veganism and some might say like wow this is all this person has in their life but the way that my friends aren't seeing cuz I have a lot of friends that eat meat and no matter what I say to them it's not gonna make them change but with her it's like yes this is her life because it's something bigger than her that's the way she sees it she doesn't care if you run her over on the streets you didn't care if you know you shoot her I think she even got branded I don't know if you fir know yeah hell l214 L 269 for the number they go to yep it's on the unusual side of abnormal it's somewhere on the spectrum right yeah yeah sure yeah yeah there are different ways of doing it but hers are completely suitable especially if she's trying to spread the word right although although I have to give it the back side some people might see a different light to that and say to themselves you know what this is just crazy I don't think if all vegans are like that I don't think I'd want to go vegan right and that's where that's where we get that double-edged sword like do you have to go crazy do you have to do these crazy things like yeah I know if you want to see crazy results you have to do crazy things but right that's not necessarily true because tomorrow will pass and people will still continue eating this is a long marathon this is an Ironman right this is not something that you're gonna win overnight and I feel like most of the vegans in the YouTube community specifically needed to understand that it's okay I mean I know you're against reduce that arianism but for me it's like it's okay if somebody falls off on their vegan diet I mean we'll segue into the vegetable at least but I'm just okay so I know you don't ask me a question I'm gonna I'm gonna respond as if it's question um what ended the Vietnam War so this may seem like it's totally unrelated but it's not for me this really is the answer now there were a lot of specific incidents during the Vietnam War that excited similar passions and it's understandable to my knowledge only one man was ever actually fully prosecuted in a military court for misconduct in Vietnam one excuse or another was always found to derail delay or cancel basically trials for war crimes crimes against humanity miss misconduct by US soldiers in Vietnam but that case was of a soldier having improper conduct with an underage girl in an interrogation room he was raping a female child and I think everybody who knew anything about that case knew this was not the only incident with this guy there was a lot of rape in in Vietnam US soldiers did rape a lot of women there was torture and some of the guys who committed the torture showed up at the house of Congress what are called the winter soldier hearings and complained so the guy is tearing up it's not even like speculative they themselves had done this torture and they wanted to give depositions to Congress and say hey this is kind of over the line what we're doing so that stuff you know makes people passionate you know to some extent you wonder why why are people why are people so resigned to crimes against humanity being committed by US soldiers however would would it solve the problem so what what is the problem okay first of all the problem here we're addressing is specifically accountability and discipline in the US Armed Forces that is the problem we're not talking about the a question of whether or not you should invade Vietnam in the first place the point is given that you have an army in Vietnam that you're raping and torturing people okay so standards of Human Rights decency and then accountability when those standards are violated disappointed said that's remote nobody could possibly believe nobody's even gonna debate with me is the way to improve those standards in the US military by doing what your friend Maria is doing it can't it can't possibly eat now what is the way to do it okay then we can make a flowchart say okay how are we gonna actually address the question of raising standards of conduct and accountability for US Armed Forces abroad I think that's a debate worth having and that would be a political movement worth leading and devoting years of your life to and people donating millions of dollars to ultimately all these things have a price tag but I sympathize with someone who just wants to frankly go crazy and there were there were people in the 1960s and I think probably still say no just put up stickers saying the US Army raped this person the US Army tortured this person this is unacceptable these are across these crimes against humanity but as soon as we take a step beyond that we ask you Sturgess start thinking about outcomes and impacts and we start think about how many hours and years of life were putting into it we have to come to a to a better methodology so that that is my answer to the question and there's a there's a kind of necessary irony here because again direct action everywhere they were founded on the promise that they were learning the lessons of history and already with this one example you see that it's impossible to just point to the lessons of history that's one lesson I take from the history of the Vietnam War you know and you know that's been a part of my life in various ways other people can read the same history and not take that lesson at all and so on and so forth but yeah that's you know that that's that's my answer some people they do they do so much but they don't realize that the magnitude that they're doing it at is very small if not minimal okay so sir I have one more okay great that's a really one but look okay so my comparison there was two ultimately question of discipline you're asking the army to be disciplined or to have self discipline and and and in some ways I think that is like the culture of meat-eating where you're looking for most of us you're looking at your own mother or your own father and saying why can't you have some accountability why can't you have some self discipline so I mean I don't think it's totally irrelevant to speak in those kinds of loaded ethical terms of personal responsibility and accountability and then there's a larger cultural skill to it also there's the culture of the military sure um look I I am an atheist I see a lot wrong with Islam how really are you gonna change a muslim-majority country culturally how are we gonna change Saudi Arabia or Indonesia or Malaysia it's not it's not gonna be through Maria's tactics again I'm not picking on Maria but if you asked her what if you were living in a country where 99% of the population is Muslim like Indonesia is this what you do would you go around putting up stickers saying circumcision destroys 50% of the nerve endings and your penis circumcision is child abuse there's a good example sticker that says circumcision is child abuse of course on a scientific factual level I agree with this statement circumcision is terrible however on a political level and even on an artistic level artistically this is an artistic and creative challenge how are we gonna change the culture and this is why I'm using this is much different from the military question I don't think there's so much of an artistic question a creative challenge you know that that's more of a purely political question it's not going to be through these tactics and on the contrary you know you may get killed I'm using her tactics in Saudi Arabia or or Indonesia I'm not even necessarily by the government just local you know sincerely religious people may take the svenska and again to be fair Orthodox Jews in Israel may kill you if you you know piss off you know Orthodox and Hasidic Jews so me know there are ever so often religious conflicts of that even within Judaism so that is the magnitude of the of the challenge we're up against so again I sympathize with people who are perhaps overcome with passion and want to do these things but I do think we can say it's strategically tactically and even artistically or aesthetically kind of kind of wrong yeah from a I don't know just arrogant standpoint but like I I studied criminal justice oh yeah and I I received a master's degree in criminal justice and one thing we noticed right like it's one thing to sit there and fight the courts or it's one thing to sit there and fight people being put in office as judge or or what have you and then it's another thing to lobby and it's another thing to write to lawyers it's another thing to actually become a lawyer it's another thing to join Congress like it's one thing to sit there and complain about the atrocities and the in justices that are going on in the United States this is clear and evident we know that the the prison rates are disproportionate among blacks than they are with whites something's going on something's out of whack not some one right but if we expect anything to change we can't just sit there and point fingers and say this guy's racist that guy's racist like okay yeah we we have evidence to show that there allegedly racist we can't prove it a hundred percent we can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt but your question that you you know rhetorically asked many of your viewers what are you going to choose what are you gonna do to change it like sitting there pointing the fingers not gonna do a damn thing so it's important for us to actually take charge and realize that if you want to fight for veganism it's not a two-day thing it's not a 90-day thing challenged 22 is great to get somebody started but I think it's a I think it's a 300 year thing I do I miss Bianca I think veganism is a 300 year struggle and if you look at I mean I think it is fair to say what is the future of Saudi Arabia over 300 years I think that is I think that is yeah sure I think that is the time to timeline um you know which for me is not an excuse for for indifference but you know cultural and human rights progress mmm even China it's incredibly depressing what's really possible in the next 50 years in communist China you know you you you worry so yeah I mean I do I do I do see these things as very deep very long-term struggles now okay quick devil's advocate what's the best thing about Maria's approach to one she she's gonna meet other people who also care about it want to make a difference that is very positive said all the time one of the main reasons I came in the internet was to make friends meet colleagues get organized save the world you can't do it alone so she's probably gonna be less isolated because she's doing this form of activism than she otherwise would be um and point two there is an educational and learning process involved now okay if some people are so stupid they're not going to learn from anything I remember I got a story you know I used to humanitarian work and I got a story from someone else doing humanitarian work we were in Southeast Asia but this woman that previous had been in in Africa in there in Africa where there was a civil war going on and she met a white tourist who signed up to fight in a with the communist rebels in this war in Africa as tourists you know and I asked her I said so at what point did he stop and reconsider the ethics of the morality of what she was doing so you know what it was one day the guy standing right next to him got shot in the head that's in his case that's what it took was standing next to someone you get shot sorry to laugh dies but I mean it's Q she didn t assume he would have you know cradled this guy as he was dying and stuff I see me worry I don't think he just ran away I assume he you know tried to help this guy or something - I don't know but and then he started to ask himself the tough questions so even if it is shall we say negative learning learning from seeing things go wrong it's probably true that she's gonna look around again even someone most people have spoken to who were involved with direct action everywhere they got involved they saw what the organization was doing wrong and then they said ooh this is really messed up you know financially organizationally ethically and running onto a baseball field for 30 seconds and then go spend a week in prison yeah because it's not that serious a charge I'm getting wrong but still you know the the legal stuff is a big deal it's is not effective this is not worth it so Pete there is a learning process that goes on also so that I would say those are the two two most positive things about about Maria's approach yeah okay good stuff I think I think I want to conclude on that topic good I think we got some some good things out there the next thing I want to bring up is carnivore dieters Pacific vegetable police kasumi Chris and underneath this category I have written down three sub points no evidence for the carnivore dire social pressures of veganism and then the third one being in us-versus-them mentality so why don't we go ahead and start off by asking each other or talking to each other about how we feel of these two youtubers in particular okay make them slaves but look I think point zero on the list here is human being seeking attention and I mean okay right attention seeking behavior now look I've known a couple families where somebody in the family attempted suicide you know younger person in the family not a cert teenager or someone in their 20s and a lot of the time the parents the older generation would have this dismissive attitude of oh they were just doing that for attention and I tried to put forward the argument as sensitively as possible if your son wants attention or if your nephew wants attention to earth person was OSI do maybe you should give it to them like why are you presuming like you know I understand the sense in which you're dismissing their suicide attempt as just wanting attention no on the other hand that does not mean the morally correct thing for you to do now is to refuse to give them attention maybe they are craving attention and maybe this problem Y should be improved if you start paying attention on this person um I have a I have a distant cousin who ended up in a wheelchair for life because of a failed suicide attempt through himself off a roof and he survived but was you know very it had a spine injury in someone's life sorry to say these things get these things yes discuss I think everyone every family these things come up soon within your within your circle of acquaintances you'll probably know this kind of thing so I do not think attention seeking behavior is evil I think a lot of people perceive what I do in my channel is attention seeking behavior I think a very small percentage of what I do in my channel is attention scene paper but that's that's fine if I mean I understand people you're sure so you put a lot of effort in your videos someone can easily say this guy just wants attention some percentage of what you're doing here and exhibiting yourself on the Internet is what so I just start with that concession now with that having been said I noticed when Kasumi crests showed up at the anti vegan protest her first auntie vegan protest with spheric was also known as Gatos approaching his name wrong there but they were eating raw meat in front of vegans at a vegan event like a vegan festival kind of kind of day as their public protest their Pro meat protest against vegan one of the things she said she stood there and said in English Wow isn't it amazing it's getting so much attention and everything about that that moment and her being there and her tone of voice and saying that I thought that's what this is all about for you and you know I mean I utterly despise vegetable police when we were both in Chiang Mai I offered to meet up with them I offered to have a boxing match with him you know I could share a boxing match I don't mean I don't nobody would have gotten hurt would have done in a gym and I said look when we have a boxing match and whoever wins gets to pick one book that the loser has to read and do a book review video of that was Mike Chang is a cool Bachmann boxing match yeah and you know he made pro-nazi holocaust denying videos in the past which I criticized him for I thought my criticism was quite mild but I know my criticism really impacted him he really felt hurt that I had criticized him for that you know are you are you surprised you know but I mean that all of that behavior it's attention-getting behavior that guy he had no sincere interest in the history of World War two he had no sincere interest in the history of fascism or the Holocaust or anything else his interest was in wasn't getting attention which is what I said in my criticism of him you know what motivates kasumi Kris she is lying to herself much more than she's lying to her audience she claims veganism made her weak I had the screenshots of her bench pressing and deadlifting you know doing these things yeah she was bragging oh I did my personal squatting record deadlifting wagons she had she had wailing as a vegan doing this stuff you know so and now she says when she began vegan she lost all her muscle tone and you know couldn't lift any weight well you yourself produce video evidence country but what motivates that fundamentally it is attention-seeking behavior so whether you regard that as good or evil is probably irrelevant I think it's kind of I I think it's part of the human condition my subscribers right I hang out with them and discord all the time and they would tell me how they used to love vegetable police's videos way back when they were original they were different and something to watch but recently well not recently he's probably been doing this the entire time where he would switch up on his diet and he would say that he's got a problem here he's got a problem there and at the end of it all he would say oh this works amazing this doesn't this works great oh the other one was wrong this is until next week's episode this is the solution for everything until nice things that was actually quite controversial I didn't know it was gonna receive this amount of backlash because of you know because of his nature in the way he was right but I told my audience that just leave him alone because I honestly believe the carnivore diet will take a toll on his diet to the point where he will come back to veganism and then we're just wasting our breath by telling him hey you're eating me because he's not gonna listen to us he's not gonna listen to anybody he's already made up his mind he's been in the carnival or die at this long like you mentioned he's been getting the attention that he's been seeking he's snagged what 60 70 thousand subscribers off YouTube from the veganism a few of them left but now he's got this entire new audience that he's shifting to and they're giving him the care and attention that he was seeking like like you were mentioning earlier yes for kasumi Chris I honestly I think you were spot-on when you said she's looking for attention because she joined the vegan she drank veganism in the hopes that she's gonna be looking better which she did I like a lot of things cleared up for her she got stronger she made more friend I don't know about more friends but she made a different group friends yeah right but then she sees that this other side veganism where you have people that are angry and bitter and somewhat depressed she's gonna take things at face value and say to herself I haven't been feeling that good yeah it's definitely veganism let me do a complete 180 let me not just introduce a little bit of meat and see if that made the difference let me just completely throw vegetables and fruit out the window let me eat strictly beef the same with Michaela Peterson same with Jordan Peterson the same with all these other people that are just ditching it completely it's one thing to feel good right and it's another thing to be healthy right because people could probably eat I mean you probably disagree with this right but people could probably eat 98 percent of their diet plant-based and then have meat once a year really that one pure beef probably won't make the biggest difference no wait epically it matters ethically it matters ecologically but it doesn't matter no in terms your health you know you can you can also whiskey is toxic you can drink whiskey once a year and turn it around and say well ethically you know people are mean and then they turn on you and this and that the only thing that I have to ask people like vegetable police and kasumi Chris is ionized like commented on it's three ridges videos and all the other carnivore dieters I always comment their videos because it's just so much fun it's a mess with them that Frank to think they're Frank to fajn oh sorry we call him Frank two-finger yeah he sits there and he tells you about these anti nutrients and whatnot so one thing I always ask them is why aren't the longest-living populations on this planet not the vegan thing is out the picture if you're advocating for a strictly meat and an animal-based diet why aren't the living longest populations on these diets right where's the evidence no and historically you know everyone knows it with the example the Inuit but you know the other big example really is Mongolia and I had done some research on the history of Mongolia did not have a 100% meat diet but it was a predominantly meat diet with very little green vegetables or fruit net meat and porridge meat and porridge diet and you know was nearly 100 percent obesity rate and you know people could live a pretty robust life on that diet till about age 30 your health is falling apart yeah yeah yeah and I mean oh it is what it is I was just talking to someone yesterday but who had cholesterol problems already at age 12 and she's now on a she's now on a vegan diet but she was being diagnosed with cholesterol cause health problems it I think at 12 and 14 and stuff with them so yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean the you know the games you play with your health are real but I mean you know again you know I mean it's funny because sometimes these things are phrased in terms of optimal health like how can you win at the Olympics that's a question the vast majority of humanity doesn't need to answer like I really don't care if the 0.00 because they're using steroids I mean they're using all kinds of things that I don't the most people shouldn't use you know the one question is optimal health that skews the conversation one way and then the other question is what can you get away with what can you scrape by on and sure I mean most of us our own grandparents most of our own grandparents scraped by on meat and potatoes and whiskey and cigarettes and we saw how they lived I mean you know maybe you're the exception watching this video and your grandparents were vegan yoga instructors let me tell you most of us we have relatives from the older generation or a family who showed you what that kind of you know one healthy diet is like but they didn't drop dead at 35 from you know they dropped out whenever they drop dead you know sorry I mean you know but you know they lived reasonable lives and you had those expectations admission is for my channel I didn't I said before I didn't expect to look like this a 40 what a 40 year old male and my family looked like you know and their ability to walk up a staircase was much much lower I mean they were you know what they were pretty disabled people but 40 that was what was normal in my well I was was normal in my family and people were just basically kind of fat and unethical you know whether they were smokers or ex-smokers or whatever I mean it was the meat you know it sir I've mentioned for else in the South of France people always grossly under underestimate my age they think I'm way younger than I am and that's because they yeah which I don't I don't think I look useful but I don't look like I'm dying right that's right that's what what they think so when I had my daughter I mean you know people thought I was like a teen dad and when I challenged them because I speak some French and said I'm sorry how old do you think I am and they'd stop and think about it they'd be like what are you like twenty-two like they'd realize I was a they realize I was offended that I thought that you know I thought I was a teenager and then okay so you're in your early 20s no I'm in my late 30s you know I'm now 40 you know so you know it is what it is but I mean ultimately all of this you know we've already said it in this conversation earlier ultimately this is about taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions so you know I don't care if you can either be an Olympic athlete who eats meat or if you can just scrape by as my own grandparents did and eat meat of course that's true I'm asking you to do the right thing because the right thing to do I'm asking to take responsibility for your actions ecologically and yeah in terms of the fact that right now there were literally billions of animals in a steel shed on a concrete floor in a cage never seeing the sunlight and waiting to die I mean it's this is just you know it's inexcusable so let's all stop making excuses for do you think the social pressures that these do you think they're first of all do you think that there are social pressures that people like vegetable police and consuming crisps are going through and if so is that enough for them to stop being vegan okay I know it's a stupid question look okay I have met women who felt they were ugly because their sister was better-looking than them as life goes on you watching this video may not have been in the situation it will probably have you at some point your life you meet a woman who's really insecure about her looks and is really hung up in hooks and you just kind of don't get any wonder why and then you meet her sister or you see a family photo of her and her family all together and then all of a sudden ah you get it the point is she never feels that she can be good-looking enough because she's comparing herself to her own sister you know and I've known families like that intellectually also where you know the parents of the family are surgeons and the kid feels always feel stupid and like they haven't accomplished enough compared to their own parents or compared to the older brother so there is a question for most human beings of what standards they may be maybe consciously or unconsciously setting for their own accomplishments vegetable police is very stupid and he's very ugly and he lives in a world where tragically I don't say this without sympathy it's easy for me to sympathize them he compares himself to the Brotherhood of people on YouTube the Brotherhood of people on Instagram and especially his little demi-monde the Brotherhood of people in Chiang Mai Thailand making money out of YouTube and Instagram who were vegan right that was the category he put himself into and he's the ugliest and he's the stupidest of them all and he doesn't speak Thai and he can't learn how to speak Thai you can't really do much of anything with his brain he doesn't really have anything to say this is a medium that's very much based on being a good talker he's not really that eloquent or smart or charming or sharp or witty and he's ugly all right and he wants to I mean we've seen this for years he wants to develop big muscles to compensate he wants to be he can't do it I mean he's tried his hardest with you know my exercising calisthenics and so that's really a tragedy that he's trying to act out as a comedy and it is in this in the strictest sense it's it's pathetic now Kasumi crests I wouldn't call her ugly but she does she does have a really terrible problem with acne and you know she's finally been putting up pictures of what she looks like when she was guys so I'm sure she feels especially ashamed of her looks it's really really serious extreme acne guys I sympathize but you know so she struggles with acne she struggles with feeling ugly and again she looks at her competition she looks at her brothers and sisters on YouTube and Instagram and she feels a lot of inferiority so that's the struggle I mean that's the struggle psychologically and for those people these two you mentioned I think for thousands of others of the most visible people in the vegan movement and most visible people on Instagram and YouTube generally that's the kind of psychology that bring to it that's the kind of competition er struggle Duran and not the struggle is not to save the planet the struggle is not to lobby government for social change I mean it's not that's not what they see themselves right and you know one of the one of the one to mention let's let's just you a little bit more of a sympathetic example so hennya of Hannya mania she started out being someone like your friend Maria hennya started out being a really firebrand street protest street theater activist kind of person and you know she obviously struggles with her weight charles with her looks she was born with a condition where she has really terrible teeth she's talked about that she's born with some kind of digestive disorder she's a long history of psychiatric problems and getting on various antidepressants she's all these problems and she comes on YouTube and she feels like she's suddenly in a competition for who's the prettiest and who's the smartest and she seemed to completely lose her moral compass and sense of purpose in terms of vegan activism which in her case she did have at the beginning she was a legitimate activist at the start and by the end of it she's just another vape 'add you know two dimensional plastic you know kind of aspiring beauty icon permanent vacation Instagram model figure so there's a range of these things but yeah that's that's my um that's my psychological rather than putting a political analysis of what's what's going on there it's hard it's hard to get attention and vegetable police is a guy who will even temporarily become a neo-nazi to get attention that's that's who I can understand the motives but I don't it's despicable it's this big away yeah that that is hello I don't know why he didn't do the boxing match with me I don't think that's nearly as low what the hell cares [Music] somebody banana something banana guy banana Ram I don't know the guys name but yeah and and true vegetable police fashion he you know he denied or he said that he wasn't doing as much yeah of course bring up with the carnivore dieters I'm getting this sense now I am NOT negative in any way when it comes to people that eat me I understand where they're coming from I disagree completely but I have to sympathize in the sense that I used to be in that same position not too long ago and even 10 years from now I'm still gonna look at them and be like you know what you're not educated that's fine take your time if you if I've presented all the facts if I've shown you all the evidence if I've convinced you epically and yet you still continue to do it then we might have a problem but if you're like my siblings or you know like my family and they sit there and they tell me I don't care I just love the taste I'm not even gonna bother arguing I'm not dead like you cannot change a stubborn person's mind so I'm not even gonna bother I've presented them with everything and at the end of the day they're gonna eat you with I don't care that's fine I'm not gonna argue with you I'm gonna go move on to somebody else that's reasonable that's open to discussion and that wants to make a difference now with the carnivore dieters the issue that I have is that vegans are painting this brush with the us-versus-them mentality or so that's what it seems like and I don't like that at all because at the end of the day they're still human beings yes they're committing terrible atrocities yes they're doing these horrible things but people can change right and they just need to be they just need to be shown hey look what you're doing is not only unhealthy what you're doing is not only damaging the environment in ecology as you mentioned in many of your videos but ethically how can you go to sleep at night that you have a pet dog but you're eating the cow I'd be like when is it gonna click in your mind that this thing is not only wrong ethically but just hypocritical in nature well I already gave you my example from the tourist in Africa I don't know I mean you know it is what it is but look um you know why do we object to someone wearing a t-shirt that approves of the Nazi Party a t-shirt that promotes you know Adolf Hitler the t-shirt itself does not directly harm or kill anyone however you know we do really have a problem where Dangerous Ideas influence people especially weak people you know obviously you know the way religious groups and cults prey on the weak the way extreme political groups including neo-nazis you know prey on and recruit the weak and so on you know there's a reason why we stand up and say no this is despicable and you can't you can't wear this t-shirt the t-shirt isn't intrinsically evil but there is a lot of extrinsic danger built into the situation I do think that it's fair to say the misinformation being spread by the carnivore people the program people like mckaela mckaela Peterson it is dangerous it is a negative influence it harms people now to give comparison what if I you know was promoting a diet that involved people drinking small quantities of really harmful metals like lead and Mercury right I wish this were a hypothetical example it's not that's done in in Indian yoga groups where they believe you should drink all these various magical metals including gold and what have you also then go through your system it's a gold medal superstition so there is some stuff out there like that what if you know we have a form of Christianity where people believe in being bitten by poisonous snakes you know those ideas are out there and you know I I'm not directly disagreeing with with what you you say but I have I am delimiting it which is no it's it's really harmful and if people were spreading the message that it was okay to Huff glue that smelling Glue fumes did no brain damage we'd be out there saying no no no we have to you know partly for ethical reasons we can't have people spreading this kind of misinformation we have to draw a line and you you know so I mean I think that in in that sense I mean the stakes are low I don't think anyone really feels a sense of urgency about refuting McKay leo Peterson but but I think it does fall into that category whether there is a there is a real conflict with real consequences so how do you feel about the separation between these two groups then I know that we have things like in politics where you have the Republicans versus Democrats you have neo-nazis versus basically every human being on planet Earth you have a lot of separation here and the one thing that I'm trying to get at is why is there so much hate on both sides now we keep saying that we're right and they keep saying that they're right now of course I'm going to side with us because I've looked at the research I've seen the damage I don't feel particularly comfortable with eating that stuff anymore but how do I know that they're not right okay so you have two different questions one was within each of the conflict but look I think the the conflicts are the first to have your question I think it's just creative for entertainment value I think that's all that's happening there and a lot of things the Internet are like that veganism is a sincere movement it may be a failure as a movement it may be a very small boom but it's a sincere movement and the carnism thing the pro meat eating thing in McCovey it is not a sincere movement on the one hand you're talking about some severely mentally broken people Micheli Epirus enlists off these mental problems that are pretty serious and then her conclusion was to put herself on an all meat diet okay so I mean this is someone who's basically testifying to how insane she is now you know let's be honest durianrider did the same durianrider listed off he that he had been diagnosed with schizophrenia and other serious meant bonuses he also claimed that he had miraculously cured these conditions by eating bananas just recently during writers said in court under oath that he has brain damage we don't know how serious the brain damage is it's presumably from the same car accident all right but we don't we don't know that he didn't stayed but you know okay so this is someone so when indeed durianrider was not a suitable eager leader for the big movement so you got you got a lot of you know mentally broken people but you know um you know the the sincerity of veganism is a movement gives it depth and longevity and you know no I don't think McKay Leo Peterson really represents a counter movement nor distorted spirit or what-have-you well sure but just one more thing the only thing I was gonna say is what we are looking for at this stage in 2018 is talent vegans are trying to recruit talented people now it's true to some extent there's also a financial challenge like yeah it would also be great if we could have more donors or more money supporting the talent that's there but it's really talent that's scarce not money in 2018 so I don't really think there is a conflict inevitable just in the sense that I don't look at Micheli a Peterson as Talent I'm not trying to recruit her to our side you know even if something as simple as making a making documentary films to support veganism or something you start looking around say okay I'm looking for talent to accomplish this I'm looking to lobby city hall or state Congress or Parliament the kind of talent you're hoping for I just don't think we're looking at the same talent pools and on the other side you have people you know like guys who are just kind of fad diet bodybuilders on the meat eating side I there's an asymmetry here and then the nature of what's going on in terms of motivations methods means and outcomes you more than does anyone donate money does anyone donate money to me Kyoya Peterson you see that's another important difference I don't think she's running a foundation like pet or something I don't think you see what I mean so that's also different now anything I do for veganism ultimately I gotta worry about donations and and support what have you and those guys don't that's not what that's nothing any place so that's another little hint as to how asymmetrical they are yeah but again I don't like to use this word but it almost seems like there's this cult-like mentality with the carnivore dieters and it's live I don't know I don't even like to use the r-word you know or I just say mentally ill mentally challenged I was thinking rape but okay go on [Music] entertainment because it's just like so much fun to listen to somebody go super crazy about these ideas and they sit there and think like dude you're actually it's not harmful what you're saying to me because I know you're a crazy guy and what's harmful is the people listening to you and joining your cause right that's the harm that I'm seeing like how are these people seriously gonna sit there and believe what this guy's saying you know and the the one video that I admired a lot from you oh my goodness thank you for posting it was the hypocrite versus Hippocratic oath oh right yeah yeah right okay yeah sure and we've seen this countless times he also ran out of funds from YouTube Marin started asking his patreon supporters his YouTube subscribers to give him money to sustain the diet well maybe that diet isn't sustainable so again the thing that's scary about him isn't the fact that he's promoting this but the fact that people are following him he's really scares me so it's it's turning into somewhat of a cult and I again I don't like to use that word because people in cults follow their leaders blindly yeah and with with all some with all conviction that they have and in a sense you see that from people in the vegan movement like brought so four or the breatharians and whatnot and I think Tim Timothy sheep was like that for a little bit so I assume I assume you don't have any kids do have kids no okay well so hypothetically in the future let's say you have an 18 year old son and you'll see this this applies pretty easily to 28 and 38 without much difference see you have an 18 year old son and he starts a YouTube channel or website and the in the future and all of a sudden he's got just $500 a month coming in and let's say just five women a month write to him interested in having sex with him like not flat out off offers but women ring and say hey you know are you ever coming to Chicago I'd really like to meet up with you and here's a picture of me okay right the vast majority of 18-year old males will go in blunt language ape [ __ ] they will not have the fortitude self-discipline and attachment to deal with that very well and it doesn't have to be a lot of Fame or a lot of success if just five women are trying to sleep with you you know that's infinitely more than zero and you got options and you all of a sudden there's the possibility of going to Chicago that goes to most you know I'm I'm a really weird person it doesn't go to my head and I have had you know I had frankly not lately I've had periods in my channel where you know um you know some money was coming in and you know significant attention of the opposite sex and then and I mean I'm the very cynical world-weary person who looks at that in a certain kind of analytical way but whether it's 18 28 38 that's gonna have some of the features from an outsider's perspective that a cult has you see so that that's actually my warning here is it's not so much that I'm coming down strongly and saying no no no this is not a cult I'm pointing out that this is similar to a cult in a way in ways that I think are ultimately misleading that's my suggestion and now look it doesn't even mean it's good if that were your son I mean actually can think about it what is more scary if your son at 18 joins a cult group or if your son is in that position at 18 of suddenly having that kind of money and temptation coming in both both are dangerous both I think would be very concerning to apparently I think I mean I think one of the differences so you know I had at least one video I think this was even in the title I to talk about the self-directed cult I know I have a written article that's called the robber jay lifton and the self-directed culprit what self-directed cult and one of the differences is the 18 year old with the hit YouTube channel nobody's in charge there's no there's nobody he answers to above him right they I think that would be true of most of these groups also even though they may seem very cult-like you know so it has this strange decentralized self-directed quality and I would say you know something like the passionate following freely used to have it was all people sitting at their own computers convincing themselves this stuff must be true and yeah so it'll acted lacked the the leadership and followership followership evidence of most real world cults perfect perfect transition to our next topic mental and physical health issues among vegans it's because this cult-like mentality doesn't just come you know like on your on your lap it doesn't come in front of you it's something that's probably built up over time brain washings you know feeling negative from your parents the way they treat you the way they raise you these kind of issues arise and and they don't just come overnight and some of that has to do with mental and physical issues not just among vegans but among all people to get them to that point so we've seen it a lot vegan gains has been open about it he mentioned how he used to be an angry person he's saying how veganism has helped but according to basically anybody that watches his videos they still see him as an angry person Isaac from ask yourself he's mentioned in himself as well not that he's a particularly angry person but there are things in life that get him angry and he just really can't deal with it if I were to give another example of vegan that has gone through issues well I'm just putting out the mainstream guys out there sure sure sure you said you said durianrider he's diagnosed with schizophrenia he claims he claims he us yeah I that also could be alive but yeah right he claims it you know this I have to say that I don't think I don't even believe that the vegan diet as long as its whole food plant-based good quality sources of vitamins and minerals I don't believe those kinds of diets inherently cause the mental health issues or physical health issues but we see it a lot of people saying that they're vegan for ethical reasons and then developing mental and health issues one for their diet and two because of their contempt for people that eat meat and we see it all the time where that sort of rage that sort of passion that they have goes out of control and they start yelling things to people like you're [ __ ] I hate that word and they say you're [ __ ] when they say you're a murderer when they say like and it's all good fight it completely makes sense they are absolutely right but it needs to be redirected or brought back in because it's not healthy for them to express themselves in this sort of way I think it'd be fair to say it's it's pathetic I mean the word pathetic has kind of a double meaning there's pathos there but it is pathetic to be screaming at someone that they're [ __ ] and so on yeah yeah yeah I don't like I don't like the name-calling thing at all I don't think this is gonna help the vegan movement whatsoever you can say what you want a natural vegan and the way she looks and the way she raises her kids but like you mentioned in your video call her a dumb [ __ ] isn't gonna do much for you or for anybody that's vegan come on and this thing sort of escalates and well she she calls me a cult leader we're going well things you can back it up but ever yeah yeah well I think that's a totally self-contained statement you made I don't think the same response to it I guess what I would ask you is do you really think rage is the outstanding problem because you mostly talked about about rage there I don't know if rage is the main there's really no evidence but from what it seems do there seems like these vegans develop depression as one of the main sources and I want to say I want to say it's not because of the food right even though there are causes like saturated fat and you know vegan pizza is in vegan hamburgers like if you eat a highly high amounts of processed food it's definitely gonna lead to depression and lower energy levels but the fact that you're surrounding yourself with people that talk down to meat eaters don't you think that if you're around that sort of environment maybe it's not the healthiest for your mind to be in and the fact that 98% of the world eats meat and so you're already limiting yourself to a group of people that aren't gonna be next to you for one that's why we have discord and number two you don't even have the options to go out and eat vegan not many options right like unless you live in LA what else see ya Morrigan Atlanta New York City like unless you live in these big cities where they offer you these options you as an individual you've secluded yourself from an environment where you could have made potentially a lot more friends simply because of the culture that you live in whereas now you've you're in veganism where it's been reduced significantly and you will find friends yeah but are these people really going to be helping you out with those mental issues well look see you asked you asked first about kind of rage and now you're talking about friendship friendship and isolation um I'm kind of gonna answer with something that's related to both but it may not be obvious to you how which is tigh what hatred and I think a lot of people not just in Western culture are in denial about the extent to which they hate and I use the word hate quite intentionally these a lot of people are in denial about the extent to which they hate the culture they happen to have been born into and you didn't choose that culture now you know again depending on how well traveled you are what if I had been born in Italy what if I had been born in Egypt what if I had been born in South or a pardon me Saudi Arabia but even closer to home what if I had been born and raised in Georgia we just got back from Detroit and I mean there are a lot of things I would really really hate about Detroit about spending any length of time there and you know some people I mean I'm I'm very cerebral about this I'm aware of the contrast from myself in Canadian culture I'm aware of the few things that I positively value about it I'm aware of the gaps and differences and the sources of friction and hatred or whatever and I can try to manage that in a kind of intellectually sophisticated way I try to have a productive positive life despite that people who are not aware of it or people who are suppressing it denying it people who are pretending that they're happy you know driving an hour back and forth to work in traffic and coming home to eat meat and play with their dog and watch football on television and you know get deep-fried chicken wings from KFC people who are conforming to the culture there they're a part of and who may even be trying to ignore the extent to which their lives are mediocre or bleak and awful within that culture that creates a lot of a lot of a lot of resentment a lot of dysphoria to use fashionable word now obviously if you then regard that society as you know deeply immoral for any of these reasons doesn't have to be you know veganism veganism is one reason I regard a lot of the things people do in in the decadent West as immoral I just can't believe people spend their lives this way you know I think that the whole saga of what happened with antidepressants and the you were asking about depression I think the whole you know pseudo scientific marketing hype sag of what happened with millions of people you know badly damaging their brain chemistry with this with this drug I think that's a really sad story to when you you look at your own culture and society very different than when you know about that look at the medical establishment differently so on and so forth um so that's what I would say broadly speaking is you have I think a lot of vegans I mean how different would my experience of veganism be if I really loved the city I was born and raised in it's but it's hard for me to even imagine that you know so alienation from your home culture or your host culture the culture of raising culture living in it in hatred for at least some elements of that culture like you know I don't play ice hockey I don't watch ice hockey I don't go skiing the things that my culture celebrates or a joke to me and I look around at my culture being built on genocide and colonialism and imperialism and you know they're all these terrible things in my culture that really bother me I also am really bothered by people eating you know dismembered animal corpses every day but it's you know it's not the only point of milla nation so yeah it's it's very hard for most people to look at that in a detached way again last you know year and a half two years my girlfriend has become quite cosmopolitan she now knows how different life is in France and how different it is in China and that again gives her a different kind of you know insight into the extent to which being raised in Detroit and rebelling against elements of the the culture she was raised in you know call the most people no question that that's part of it so that's honestly that's what I think is the underlying dynamic there and yeah vegans are not going to be the only aspiring social movement to have this yeah have this kind of dynamic discussion suicide rates and a gun ownership right and I believe this the statistic the most recent statistic that we found was that 40% of people that owned pistols use it for suicide that's scary that is scary right so more importantly like why why are they like you say why are they using it for suicide well I think the more important question asked is why are 40% of people killing themselves okay maybe they have some sort of attempting suicide shoes I'm guessing that's suicide attempt but yeah yeah depression is rising and it's in a place where it shouldn't be rising because you would think you have all these things you have all the access to basically all the freedoms not all right isn't that big Loosli right you know what I'm saying um you have cars you have jobs you have money you have things you're not restricted on the internet you can see whatever you want with limited repercussion or Consequences so the fact that the suicide rate and depression rates are going up higher it pains me to know that something like veganism might contribute to it even more or make it worse exacerbated and that's not only due to the fact of the nature of the movement itself but it could be because of the poor lifestyle and poor habits because people are bought by the idea Hey look the evidence shows that veganism is the longest way to live veganism is the most ethical thing you're you're given all these great things about such a great movement and at the end of it you say to yourself well I can still eat potato chips oh I'm vegan oh I can still drink alcohol I'm vegan well I can sit on the couch all day I'm vegan they get like some people get the idea that they truly are better and they get the superiority complex that they can literally do anything they want as long as it doesn't infringe on the freedoms and rights of other people animals so look I actually disagree with you here and you know maybe I'll convince you but this is so this is a rare case where I get to get to disagree with you I think what people have a scarcity of is meaning in life now you're right there are a lot of things we don't have a scarcity of there's an advertisement on this table you can't see it it's off-camera there's an advertisement for the Nintendo video game series Metroid now if you take any example of you know Mickey Mouse or you know there's so many things in our culture that are ultimately really Hollow and meaningless but I mean the Metroid video games have been around since I was a child and it's the same plot every time you're a person in robot armor who shoots space aliens there's there's no meaning there's no storyline it's very repetitive and I think any one of those games is at least twenty hours to play through probably most most people that probably each game they play for 40 hours 60 hours you know obviously not in one sitting you know but it's not like a movie a movie you maybe watch for an hour and a half so people grow up spending all of these hours on Metroid and they spend all these hours on you know a lot of meaningless pop culture stuff and you know I do think it's fair to call those things meaningless and I think they come out of that with a real appetite for something meaningful so one of the artistic challenges I'm really interested in is producing children's storybooks that are more meaningful than what's available right now so you know what songs do we sing to our children the farmer in the Dell the farmer in the Dell hi-ho the derry-o the farmer you know the actual songs we have distinguish children the stories we tell our children which includes you know Metroid it includes videogames they are so meaningless it's painful and we grow up with those is the only meaning in our life that we can clutch at and cling to and again my response to this I was aware of this I was cerebrally aware of this and I chose to convert to Buddhism and become a scholar of Buddhism I was trying to do something constructive I was trying to become a part of a culture you know that I valued and can do something do something positive with and you know Buddhism is better than communism which is basically my parents religion that I was raised with was communism so it was a step in the right step in the right direction but still you know Buddhism is far from perfect and had its own problems you know so that that yearning for meaning and reaching out for meaning and not knowing how to make it yourself you can't just replace metroid' with something more meaningful you probably can't you can't just program your own video game you could most of you probably can't you can't again you can't most people can't just write a new story book for their children I'm really gonna try I have about 30 days now and I'm really trying to prepare a series of stories and puppet shows and activities for my daughter for the next time I see her because I want them to be to be about something long to be meaningful more meaningful than Curious George you know another very uneven story book Curious George anyway you know so I think that's the challenge and that's the scarcity and so I don't I don't see the same thing as we do and you were lamenting that veganism leads to further isolation well no because veganism can exactly be a step from a meaningless life to a meaningful life and moreover veganism for many people is a step away from meaningless forms of rebellion rebellion against the culture you were born into a lot of people they get their upset with the culture they're in so they start wearing a leather jacket they start having a mohawk the hairstyle Mohawk you know they start dyeing their hair for those that there are many forms of rebellion that are meaningless and self-defeating and what's the point you know I do think that veganism is an act of rebellion it's it's a refusal to conform and comply with cultural expectations but I think it's a meaningful one I think it does bring meaning into a lot of people's lives there is pathos in that struggle you know and there's tragedy in it but you know there's there's also tragedy in people spending 40 hours playing Metroid trying to see the good ending that's also feature this game beating it repeatedly so you can see the good ending and not the better you know and and that and that is that is mass that is epidemic most people have nothing but Walt Disney Nintendo's Metroid the Friday night sports game on TV that's all they've got and I am completely confident in saying veganism is better than that despite everything that's wrong with veganism and and it's not easy for me to say that about Buddhism it's not because Buddhism it's much more difficult to have something politic opposed good meaning definitely definitely got me thinking for a little bit I'm like yeah you know what I'd rather be alone and fight for something that I can stand for then be with a million people that stand for nothing so in that in that context I could see where you're coming well okay that that's a good image but let's just put it this way I could buy tickets to go to an ice hockey game or go to a football game I'll be standing in a crowd but I will be alone in that crowd yeah and now when I fly to Europe we're going to both France and Germany and I'll let people know on social media so they can meet me maybe I'm gonna meet with two or three vegan activist in Europe maybe just one there's one I know we've already lined up but I have something meaningful in common with them hey maybe maybe it's gonna be 10 or 15 people but you know I'm not gonna be alone with those people so to speak I see so that's mean meaning can lead to togetherness and you know it might not you might remember you might not that the vegan woman who tried to kill a bunch of people at YouTube headquarters oh yeah right yeah yeah so she she decided to try she only I think she only shot a couple of people but she was trying to keep murder a large number of people and then commit suicide that was this kind of this kind of event you know so she had never had a boyfriend she was a virgin until the day she died she felt she never fit into American culture she's very unhappy with it religiously her family were Baha'i as that recalled Baha'i is amol religion there's a lot of alienation there and she never overcame her accent she spoke English with a thick accent despite living in America basically her whole life that she could remember I think is a very small child she was at South America but you know you know so yeah there's an example of someone I think veganism was the only meaningful thing she had in her life and it wasn't enough it's not enough she needed the boyfriend I mean she needed whatever she know kinds of other things she probably needed a career in education and stuff to I'm sorry I'm not judging I'm just assuming there were other other things in her life that weren't so rewarding you know with that letter to this point of desperation and misery but I don't look at that and see say okay veganism was the problem here I think probably veganism was the only thing that that was any good and what was really a very bleak miserable depressing you know life for her probably they haven't been exposed to a vegan lifestyle they don't know that it is a different world in some sense where when you walk into a grocery store you're always passing the meat aisle and you know you don't think about food anymore you think like wow I can't believe this goes on for another thirty feet but you have this is just one sort of hundreds of thousands of stores in one state of 50 states of 200 countries like you start thinking in those terms and you say to yourself wow I can't believe this is still going on and that nobody is realizing it so for them to have that thing to not contribute to and to say to themselves know I have more discipline I have more willpower than to eat something that tastes good it speaks a lot to them and again like you said it gives them meaning for life it says hey you're not doing this for you it's for the animals it's for the ecology you it's for basically those that have yep and and and some people experience that as tragedy I mean for some people it's tragic I've broken down weeping on this YouTube channel at least four times I don't have a count you know there are tragic elements to my involvement with veganism my girlfriend here is it more than anyone but you know there are things I really regret there are really sources of sadness and sorrow and setbacks in my life that have come out of my involvement veganism and and for some people there's gonna be a lot more tragedy than than comedy but it's also true I mean who even talks to me today you know the friends I have the meaningful relations that have have mostly been brought into my life through through veganism and look I mean so I don't even know how old you are and sorry you can't you know Oh yotz with fuzzyness say you know it's possible you and I will still know each other 10 years from now you know I remember I mean yo again like you know in terms of being alone in the crowd or whatever I mean home but you know I'm busy the next couple of months but whatever you cook is sitting this also can be the start of a friendship or a colleague ship or what have you and you know if I had done a video game YouTube channel I'm certain I have more viewers if I'd done a game of Thrones YouTube channel I'd have more viewers but I don't know if I'd have more meaningful friendships it's an open question so yeah there are ways in which I still kind of have to insist that veganism is objectively a good thing even though subjectively you you may experience more tragedy than then comedy from it I experienced more tragedy simply because I'm presented with the reality of the situation and I honestly if it wasn't for veganism I don't think I would have finally made that leap of maturity that I have now now if my friends are watching these videos right they would say oh you know Willy you're a crazy guy I listen that but honestly if it wasn't for veganism I don't think that I would have stopped watching professional football oh really yeah no I think that's a really interesting sample going ya know like things began to change and you could call it maturity you could call it veganism you can point it at anything but at a certain point in time I look at my brothers I look at my friends and I'm like what are you guys doing they make fun of me here's here's a funny example they make fun of me because we go to an annual vacation everybody works but at least one week of the year we all meet up together seven eight or nine of us and we go to the beach you know and have fun together and they were making fun of me but in a good way because because they saw me doing yoga the other thing in the morning and I think we were in Miami and I had my phone on and as I was doing yoga I was listening to a debate between I hypocrite and I ask yourself two podcasts I'm like we can at them I'm like what are you doing watching Game of Thrones but they're making fun of me for doing yoga listening to podcasts and when they quote say dude are you 50 years old are you 16 am I supposed to be young are you supposed to grow up am i hanging out with the right people but it's ultimately what it came down to and I realize no I wasn't these people are not on the same intellectual level I'm not saying a smart person but the things that we discuss I get tired of it because what ends up happening is you go to a party you say hey Josh what's going on man and he's like oh no that much how you been oh I'm good how was work work is good what about you Oh work is good too awkward awkward silence very positive all right man it's good seeing you and that's the end of it because we don't have anything in common right if we were to talk about football and Julio Jones catching a touchdown what what does that do for us Roy best people mmm that does nothing for me I'd rather talk to somebody across the entire country right in another country that I have a common theme with yep and yeah sure sure sure sure I mean the other thing that's interesting with veganism is there is actually a positive objective for the future and that's often lacking Buddhism it could exist within a particular you know but it's movement but okay even if it's 300 years from now we want to live in a world that isn't built on the perpetual exploitation of animals factory farming you know etc etc we have this end point and we have to work towards it you know it's not that's like it's gonna happen without anyone lifting a finger right so I mean that also gives those friendships dynamism even if it's dynamism in the midst of a feeling of powerlessness and hopelessness because I know let me just due to poverty and and what-have-you a lot of people feel they can't do anything more for the movement you know then they're already doing or they can't do they can't do anything at all so yeah I do think veganism is is a gateway to more meaningful friendships and look you know um in some ways I mean I'm in the opposite category from you and someone is in the same category so I'm I'm a very gregarious person I'm very good at talking thus I have 1,000 YouTube is by I am in real life also I don't camera so I mean I can go to parties and I can really talk and you know I think people don't want to invite me to parties because it makes them feel stupid and it makes them feel it makes them feel like they have nothing to say because for me even when I'm speaking very casually like I'm not talking about veganism or politics or something people really do pick up on the depth of what I'm able to do and how easy it is for me to kind of win it I caught this way people that get up on that you know so it's interesting you can be a good talker and be a person of substance who people still don't want at that party and they don't want to feel stupid and they don't want to feel judged and you know what have you so there's also a kind of self selecting you know stupidity and here in Canada white english-speaking Canada most people don't make new friends after the end of high school they want to just stay in a circle of people who kind of don't question them and don't question them and don't judge them and don't don't get rid of that compassion yeah anyway and I've seen contrasting cultures you know all over the world in China people do become friends with you but friendship in china is almost always linked to business so friends are a hybrid of friend and colleague you know which is very different from Western culture we think of those as very separate so you know I mean even I was talking actually with a an Arab friend I don't know I guess a Palestinian for lack of a better category friends oh yeah ideally so I suppose that we were talking about the contrast between mcgrevey culture and European cultures that's West Western Arabs or everyone for them because in France you see that all the time and their attitudes towards friendship and what-have-you so it really does vary from place to place you know it's it's not this isn't some kind of universal dictum but yeah you know does veganism isolate you or does it unite you with people you have something meaningful in common with the answer is both and you know yeah I see I see the tragedy of that but as Socrates said the unexamined life is not worth living I don't think anyone who's vegan wants to go back to because you can do you can just not tell people you're vegan you could just lie and say you're lactose-intolerant you could just make up an excuse when people offer you a hot dog you know it's not it's not hard to lie you can get used to it and you'll see how different your life is when you just don't tell people you're vegan and if you think that's gonna bring something positive into your life I you can give that a try for a month you know you really could instead of the 30 day vegan challenge 30 day continue being vegan but pretentious and you will see just how little positive brings to your life sure and it plunges you back into that undifferentiated world of trying to make conversation about football and ice hockey games and it came down to a point where we had this seminar or this gathering and one of the administrators or the the the event creators right they ended up asking people for food so who's vegetarian I look around look around right like I mean what am I gonna say right vegan and then so my left is dr. Richard right he's very well profound in criminal logic criminological literature I didn't know he was whoops I didn't know he was vegetarian either he's been vegetarian for 22 years we both look at each other we're like oh I guess we're the only two in the room they bring out the food and they had these wraps and I remember specifically this was the first time I ever told anybody at school that I was vegan a friend of mine her name is Taylor right she looks at me she's like I didn't know you're vegetarian and I said oh I'm not I'm vegan it's just like no you're not like she's denying me of what he I said no no I'm vegan she's like how long have you been vegan I said March of 2016 she's like what I could have sworn I saw you eat I'm like no yeah there's nothing questioning what I'm eating right and I dissected that entire rap I'm like tomato lettuce okay no sauce no cheese okay we're gonna put an avocado okay we're good she's like oh is that bread vegan God so for two years straight nobody had known about my lifestyle because while it was a part of me they just don't need to know this is one of those things mm-hmm so and in a way if I felt like if I did tell them they would look at me differently they probably wouldn't have the same conversations that we usually have which usually it's just about some sort of article that we read about raper yeah controversial topic so yeah for me for me there's a direct contrast you know I have five Jewish heritage I don't have Arabic heritage but I do kind of look Arabic and there's a reason because if you go back just some people guess Persian for me right yeah yeah but he'd say this but if you go back just five thousand years Jews and Arabs were the same people you know genetically it's you know branches from the same tree so it's no wonder but you know for me there's a direct condo stream veganism and alcohol I do not drink alcohol when I quit during alcohol and a long time ago but I normally in social situations I normally don't draw attention to that I conceal it like I just go and get a drink like whatever it is sprite or something yeah and you know I just don't mention what I'm drinking to people and they assume I am drinking alcohol now why is that it is in some way spirit well I don't want them to feel judged and the reality is I do judge them I do kind of look down on people who you know I don't want them to think you know I'm superior and and they're inferior and the reality is yes I really do think it's superior to be sober than the drink I do believe you know alcohol causes brain damage but that's not the point alcohol if you drink alcohol you are only harming yourself if you eat meat you are not oh so you know there is it there is a difference I'm not an anti alcohol activist and you know what I could be I mean it seems unlikely I can imagine you know much earlier this conversation I mentioned you know mothers against drunk driving and so on I see how you can become passionate about that that kind of let's put it this way you can become a sobriety activist I think that is a meaningful thing to pursue but yeah for me there's that direct contrast of not particularly broadcasting my sobriety and on the contrary you know openly broadcasting the issue with veganism and letting people know like look you can change today you know you're not nobody was born this way you know so this is your decision you know what's what what's stopping you so yeah can we wrap it up there we're just coming up on about two hours so the the conversation we can maybe write it down and leave it for next time yeah because I think that's a good conversation to our podcast okay wonderful watching this and have actually reached the end or just wanted to skip to the end I'm gonna link aisel master's channel on the bottom it's called Ababa Co so I'll leave a link in the description I'll probably upload my video later in the day so you go now look for so share it with your audience and if anybody I'm just gonna put this out there so I don't seem dishonest if anybody from your channel wants to come and subscribe to mine because I am a vegan channel I am a fitness channel if they want to see some other form of entertainment feel free to subscribe you don't have to do me justice sure I have always been about promoting smaller vegan channels if you were watching my my channels going on more than four years I used to really actively reach out to and collaborate with and promote sometimes channels that had like ten of you versus you know really that small you know I've always been about that and it's kind of sad to see that in 2018 there's really a lot less synergy there's a lot less cooperation going on within the vegan movement than ever and I think that actually reflects greater pessimism than ever people are not as optimistic that they can just kind of make a few youtube videos and then put together a meet-up and get 200 people to show up at a protest or demonstration and that is what happens I've known channels you've done that who got you know real life events with 200 people turning up in person so people do need sources of optimism and things to be hopeful about there is a lot to be hopeful about but it's not money if you think you're gonna make money on YouTube that's not what you should be optimistic about but everything else there were a lot of other things motivations of the money that are worth being optimistic about and ultimately every political movement is based on colleagues friendship mutual trust association you gotta make friends you got to get out and shake hands with people you know at any level of politics and the next step for vegan politics involves a lot of people like me and captain weiner here figuring out figure out how much they have in common and a little they have in common and how we can build in that common ground so it was great meeting you this is the first time we ever talked in case you guys wonder we never said one words for each other before this is the first conversation and let's see let's see what we can do with the vegan move in the next five years maybe the start of a beautiful friendship thank you very much bye bye