For the poor vs. for the majority: questioning democracy.

but how much democracy and let's say
elitist oligarchy or government do you like to see in a specific government because you said that democracy is fundamentally unequal you shouldn't videos you want to see a democracy that's or democracy is a representative government of the poor because they are the majority but at the same time that's actually not well but at the same time as we mentioned earlier like we said that like more positive more change like at the end there has to be somewhat enforced government yeah bleep from above right the county looking salvos this is where I use okay it's kind of hard to see okay good so the good question but I for me it is an easy question answer this doesn't you know this isn't to me a kind of unexpected audience question all I want government to be for the poor not because the poor of the majority in Canada I don't think the poor are the merchants of people again or maybe it's thirty percent it's how we define it but it's way less than fifty nine so been Canada depending maybe maybe ten percent not that Canada is a very rich country but you you just came from Luxembourg me oh you came through election you know sir you wouldn't let some but for a few hours but uh as you know but some people if there are almost nobody in Luxembourg is poor like that they have a very tiny number of people who are poor it's one of the it's one of the wealthiest countries were but also one of the least four so they have a very very small number for the poor a small minority there um so it's not now of course I mean it's a question what percentage of people are poor in China but Laos or Cambodia I've lived in countries were definitely the majority or four so sometimes the poor or a majority and sometimes they're a minority I do not it's not it is not because the poor are the majority that I want government by the poor and for the poor it's because the poor are the people who need government help who need government infrastructure so I mean even in the example of socio of a train system the train system doesn't really matter if it works well for the rich now if it does that's nice like it's nice if there's a first-class carriage where rich people can drink champagne it means you could have a swimming pool on the train so rich people can pay extra man pay a hundred dollars to go swimming you have a son I don't care that doesn't really matter for society but it's tremendously important that you have seats on the train that are so cheap or subsidized that an unemployed poor person looking for a job can take the train from city to city and go and do job applications or go and get government benefits or go to the hospital right now again like hospitals sorry I could go on with the many examples if hospitals don't work for the rich they have alternatives they have options they have ways to cope because they have money yeah the poor need those government services now I can say this to some extent about education etc so there it is a little bit different it's not really the same for education as it is for a train service but broadly speaking you know you you get my point now um I have never known in the history of the world a society where the rich were so marginalised and voiceless that we really had to worry about them not not being that the government ignored them you know the government just doesn't care about the millionaire's who own factories you know there's nothing in government but I mean it's theoretically possible it's pretty close to theoretically impossible so you know that this is the issue of the government emphasis of the poor but as I've already said the poor may be a minority they may be a small minority in a very successful democracy now the other type of minority you're talking about ultimately are the people who care so you know if you have an open public consultation if you have an open democratic process with a series of meetings to discuss sewage treatment how is the government going to build a new sewage treatment we just had this in Victoria the city I live in Canada and way back in the year 2000 I was involved those that democratic process in Toronto when the City of Toronto was planning a new it was called the the wastewater management plan wastewater sounds nicer than poo poo management plan right um who comes to the meeting I do I I'm the kind of person to come back here about ecology I care about politics I care about the snakes but if you don't force people to go against their will you know that is gonna be a minority of people no I think actually there are questions of maybe not forcing people but incentivizing people creating a culture and even an economy where there are enough positive incentives that I mean you know maybe you have to have a minimum we say look if we don't have ten percent of people participating in this we're not gonna make the decision at all look we have to have a certain percentage of the public really involved in this process otherwise we're not going to commit ten billion dollars to this because the costs of these decisions can be huge you know maybe there is in ancient Athens they would pay a salary to people they would pay three Oh balls a day for you to come to an important public meeting and one Obama day if it was a less important minute so you would get paid a little bit of money to come and spend all day now there are other things involved there is a role of intelligence and education involved but these people are going to choose themselves i sat down and gone through technical documents about air pollution water pollution and stuff and when I was in Cambodia and Laos they were different in Laos I got deeply involved in government policy on rubber farming on the different types of Agriculture and farming the governor's meeting I'm not an expert in in agricultural engineering and you're not either trust me you're smart enough to sit down and read that stuff even part of it is when you see something you don't understand going and finding a book going and looking it up figuring out what's going on here being able to scrutinize the statistics so you don't you don't need to be an expert in agriculture or sewage treatment or anything but you need to be someone with a kind of public spirit and sense of responsibility and curiosity and Verve and tenacity and not everybody can care about every issue right so in saying a minority of people are gonna care that ultimately I know minority people are going to be involved in the decision I don't mean the rich or the poor I mean that when you have real democracy not everyone is good is going to be committed on every issue now is that a problem yes gay rights as an example two types of people in Canada were highly motivated about gay rights people who were gay themselves and the Catholic Church and they were on opposite ends so at that time I mean I don't remember his long being a major player in Canada we have a lot of Catholics in Canada we didn't at that time of very many Muslims but I'm sure also you know conservative Muslims had a position on it and so on so you know one of the problems is when you when you when you involve too small a percentage of the public you're gonna get the polarization of special interests and not a representation of the broader society so yeah there are factors to be managed there get a design answer question is easy for me you ask a good question but I don't feel it's contradictory or difficult yeah yeah I just wanted to know like the underlying unifying philosophy some time right right right right resin pieces right and just want to connect them yeah so it's kind of a cynical view of human nature and impose yeah but the best thing in life is when those minorities can choose themselves when people can slip so so you know um even something like museums and art you cannot leave questions about art in the hands of people who happen to be born rich which it most societies what it is someone is born rich their great-grandfather bought many paintings maybe they have paintings like here in Europe there are people their great-grandfather bought paintings and put them in a castle and now here they are today and they don't care about art whenever in they're on this this powerful position in the art world they have money they have an old collection of paintings and they're going to be influential that way how how do people how does the public how does a democracy need questions about art the answer questions about art that that really affects the public and that involve millions and millions of dollars of taxpayers money you know tremendous costs with tremendous long-term consequences you know that's a situation where it's so fundamentally elitist in its bias even aristocratic in its bias that it's very hard to create a meaningful Democratic you know process that I'll build on both people and where I mean definitely the vast majority of the poor they don't care they don't think it's their issue you know they're not going to be motivated even in the same way they may be motivated on gay rights or something yeah so these are challenges yeah these are so you say it's always funny you saying it's a it's a cynical view of human nature you know again all the ancient Greeks they they start from this assumption that when people get involved in in politics they are they are pursuing their self-interest you know their interest as a person or as a class but I mean young you're an example of this so you know you you you used to think about veganism in terms of your health which is one kind of self-interest and then it broadened you started thinking about it in terms of ecology and in terms of politics it's all self-interest but you you become more and more enlightened in your self-interest yeah and your self-interest is in a grand icing and involves other people in the whole world your whole country you know takes on these takes on these other dimensions yeah so means self-interest is not necessarily narrow and is not necessarily destructive or or focused on your own entertainment or something John John Adams behind Wow