Socrates Must Die: On Plato's Euthyphro.

let's get deep and shallow at the same
damn time the death of Christ contrasted to the death of Socrates I assumed you were Todd because this is the normal white bread American way to teach the the death of Jesus that he didn't do nothing wrong that he was persecuted for no reason that he was innocent right I guess so and in the book if you actually just read the Gospels Jesus Christ is completely utterly guilty of the charges being laid against them right so I'm looking at you I got a look at the camera Jordan before I'm sorry to bother you but no I can't really be turning around ah Jesus goes into the temple to cast out the money changers he runs into the room where the Pharisees are eating dinner and he steals the food off their table right he does all these things that are obviously in a word impious he utterly and thoroughly deserves to be tried accused tried and convicted of this crime and the gospel spells it out for you there's no question that he's guilty and yet everyone tells the story it's all poor little Jesus he didn't do nothing wrong yeah okay so Socrates what I think dramatically is the real impact of the Euthyphro and this may not be obvious on a first reading or may not be obvious if you actually don't know how the story ends hashtag spoilers Socrates is killed Socrates is guilty Sardis guilty as [ __ ] Socrates like Jesus if you just read the if you just read the story it's setting out for us really clearly that he is guilty of an empire that he is a heretic and his particular type of heresy you know who's worth talking about Miz a Socratic method and free thinking and progress and questioning your assumption and all that stuff but we got a congress here there's another source not enough people read this was not at all I mean I remember anyone in my university ever mentioned this so this is Xena fons memorabilia right and memorabilia in this case it's actually memories of Socrates if you like the record of the things Socrates said did so in this and other works by Xenophon about Socrates you basically he's defending Sartre the member of Socrates long story short he's trying to make it seem that Socrates did nothing wrong that Socrates was perfectly pious that Socrates never corrupted the youth the you know the different charge concerned he was innocent I think exactly what makes you do such an impactful work is that showing you the opposite is that Socrates is totally utterly guilty yeah this this is a heretic this is heresy and he is laughing at and mocking you know the the religion of us of his day and this is a society which I mean it's an interesting society okay what else what else killed while stood Socrates have to die one he was the teacher of alchemy at ease that's totally outside of this particular dialogue yeah it does come up in both versions of the apology I think all the the accounts of the trial and death one of his students goes on to be the most notorious turncoat imaginable switching sides and fighting against Athens becoming a he's a major general and political leader and military leader and he goes to fights against Athens for the Spartans so that's a big deal and even even someone like Xenophon you're you're mad suspect bro you're a little bit suss no suicides honest right yeah so this is this is another student of Socrates he becomes pro-spartan and even Plato it's in there as throw Plato's a little bit too he's a little bit too pro-spartan you know it comes across both so for some reason all of your students are kind of on the wrong side Socrates so even even in the apology he's quick he makes it very clear that he was on the right side when he's telling his side of the story right so politically you know he is a bit suspect right yes mmm yes sir sir sir sir sir what what what do you use your bit why did saris have to die tell me well I mean part of it has to do with democracy like the fact that when you get people together as a group it can lead to decisions that mob justice yeah right and in what I've read it seemed like just a couple days after the people wrote and made the decision kind of regretted what they did thought it over there like right but okay but look below sir this is super super nice but don't you think that's also what the Euthyphro is setting you up for cuz Euthyphro is questioning what is piety what is justice people think they know but they don't really know I think you got it it well when your analysis you said well ultimately it's just human it's a human convention it's human beings coming together and deciding this mm-hmm guess what that means it means mob justice it means Socrates has to die right right it means that at whatever time that you're living and you have to you have to follow the rules you have to go with what has been set down by humans at the time and somewhat you know you can be but you can be before your time or after your time you know it could be you can be in the wrong culture you know okay okay okay so here's another question for you okay Jesus Batman what's the difference there are stories people made up and they believe in and have credence right yeah no in Socrates is time you got the legend of Zeus Zeus and Chronos or any particular legend about Zeus right and you've got new legends new stories like Batman being made up at the theater that for me that's reason number three why Socrates has to die right there was a comedy made up about Socrates and this comedy was full of accusations aspersions against his character including I mean one of the main points was that Socrates was just out for money and he was corrupting the youth and you know that you know that he was uh he was a stereotypical surfaced he says he's not motivated by money but really it's all about making money out of peddling philosophy and so on that's that's all in there and this I mean this sets him up this sets the public against him ultimate is mentioned at his trial he says well many of you have these misconceptions though because there was a hit play you know I get it today they said it was like a hit man yeah that's David I don't have a cinema they have the theater they have live theater and this is this is the big this is the Batman this is the this is the big you know pop-culture spectacle of its day yeah and Socrates was the butt of a few too many jokes down the theater so he has to die yeah well the main difference today is obviously people don't take Batman so seriously that they would kill for him and at the time people did take Jesus so seriously that IIIi disagree I think people do kill because of that I think they do and you know I think I think it it it shapes people's moral perception and though I think people get into fistfights and yeah there's exactly their sense of justice is shaped by stories like like Batman and you know I took this up with my students in China I spoke to them at quite some length like you know because actually my students China I presented with Plato we went through Plato as it looked Plato he thinks it's a really big deal what are we teaching children in these legends in these traditions it's one of the big questions Plato ass because indeed when you look at the ancient Greek legends they're all horribly immoral in obvious ways they're about like murdering your own father right there's rape and you know it just kind of makes no sense as terms of an ethical teaching for children so why are we teaching this stuff to kids what do we expect from kids this but you know I was asking the Chinese students in China because you know they're familiar with Batman but from a distance okay so what do you guys think about Batman why do Americans teach this to children would you teach this to children you as a parent or you as a teacher you know what do you what do you think is the the moral impacted this on on kids you know so it's interesting to lead them in that yeah examination well I think I do think that man has that kind of that kind of impact ya know that is really interesting to compare the cultures to like it obviously here well in the Western world it's totally cool to teach your kids about Batman right well little kids walk around in Batman costumes they know like they have from an early age they get this sense of what is justice and what is you know killings of killing a bad guys like right right right really what justice is all about well right in Batman Batman will beat people up but he won't murder them yes you know those lines no but those lines matter a lot nobody's mentioned I think that I think that often is exactly what you know I'm no parents or the authors feel Oh Batman he beats people up but then he leaves them at the police station you know he just beats them up and ties in the right that's why the Joker never gets killed he keeps route you don't wraps up the Joker in a chain and leaves in front of the police now we are hoarse nobody miss it's a true but look I mean really the religion of Athens in this time also isn't really the the religion of Zeus of the most ancient mythology this is more recent body of mythology which is you know Homer you know the Odyssey and the legends surrounding what was originally a real war there was an actually historical war between you know over Helen of Troy make a long story short you know war with King Priam and all this other stuff they put together an army and what-have-you and the opening of Thucydides discusses that and the Citadis discusses he gives estimates or how many people were involved with the war how many ships and he says he says actually the scale of that war wasn't terribly big ya know compared to Wars as they progressed but nevertheless that's really the Batman of its day and in a lot of ways that's also the Jesus of its day and so on and they had you know they had formal religious festivals for what were originally historical characters in that drama in those in those events specific Sayle or pardon me specific sailors soldiers and archers and you know some of that stuff is extent and some of its not so that's very alien to us the idea of but you know but it is it was showing young man this is virtue you know this is what it means to be a man is to be like this specific soldier in this specific war in as remembered in the specific poem that you have to memorize him recite and see acted out of the theatres in the theater it really was a religious ceremony in many ways and again and that's why Socrates had to die Socrates must die Euthyphro Socrates must die for me that's the dramatic tension of this is that if you're reading it you know this is after the clock is ticking down to this man being executed and you know in a sense he's being wrongfully executed it gets horribly immoral don't get me wrong it's like saying the Spanish Inquisition is more or less totally more sure yeah but he's guilty of the crime this is showing you that he's guilty in exactly right right you have to look at it in the context of the time period whether somebody is killed or not depends on the time and the culture but I think but I think all of us all of us like Socrates want to transcend our times that's the point you and I don't want to live in the confines of a boy we've inherited 2018 I didn't know him it the reality of 1989 neither I mean that's that's the tragedies were all struggling to transcend our times right in their history the mediocrity of the assumptions cultural political economic that were born takes so a lot to catch up with what is you know in the public opinion of what is right or wrong like we're just for example the laws for the internet have caught up to what has the technology of today right so many obvious things sure yeah and it seems like nobody cares that's that also stirs me I've been reading I've been reading Aristotle's politics again and just the way these books talk about legislation it's heartbreaking cuz you realize we live in a country day where nobody cares about lives yeah they just care about public opinion right like now we've been we've been getting emails from like updated privacy policies from yeah every single like social media thing that you public opinion now is against Mark Zuckerberg and even the junk mail from Parliament because sorry I didn't even bother showing you that junk mail from Parliament they're all just sorry I don't want to you such coarse language but I mean they're all just Ambulance changing they're all just chasing issues that are in the media so we got junk mail from Parliament like oh do you think Canada should have a law against plastic littering the ocean and this is it someone in Parliament is just trying to chase up public support like oh this issues hot let me get my shingle out there you know yeah yeah so you know I mean it's it's fine though Sir Ian but you know Aristotle in the politics he says something well I think most people would regard it as evil but I think it's profoundly morally good he says look there are these various Sciences but when you really think about it think the queen of the sciences the the mean the ultimate science all of this is part is Paul is politics the ultimate whatever you want to talk about the science is you know the the apex of the sciences is politics it all comes down to human social reality relations human organization and legislation and that's what all men of talent and brilliance and ability must you know bend their minds to war in bed there are efforts towards worrying about the future of their city and it's its morality its legislation its politics its vitality etc nobody thinks that way in the modern world and what what today is that the apex I mean you know I think a lot but we'll say consumerism make a lot of people say yeah you're altom utley everything you're doing is bent towards owning a fancy car or something you know you know for other people I mean okay for a few people it's theoretical physics or the progress of Medical Science I mean I know there's some people have some other but even people who are very altruistically inclined you know they may they may say it's charity work or washing the feet of the poor or something but it's not it's not politics in the market so nobody cares yes right but even you know in a time okay in ancient Athens this is when people were motivated this right people were caring about these things and right all the real what you you use this example already in your video you said well you think factory farms should be illegal another one you know I know ask yourself eyes like agreed with me on this leather shoes yeah whatever from our perspective today the idea that this is even a debate the morality and legality the leather shoes is laughable right so if we lived in a society where people care you're right Socrates asked the diet is gonna create a certain kind of intense conflict but that would also be a society where those debates would would matter where they did involve I mean I think the best and brightest and so on yeah I was just reading sir a brilliant article I emailed it to you it's really brief from a career lawyer who's now gonna waste the rest of her life doing boring paperwork was this really brief article about a fundamental horrible ethical issue for First Nations people these kids in a small town burnt down basically like the lunatic asylum that were faced to live forced to live in so it wasn't on blue excellence what was called a residential school in Canada it's part of our history of No and the saddest thing is reading this article even in how it views itself this is the most marginal question in Canadian politics today Oh genocide it's something credibly marginal unthought-of unresolved it's the bottom of the pile of oh yeah it's fascinating it's important it met like there are all these practical consequence of an including like in this case who actually owns the land you know is linked to that there are all kinds of consequences that stole still matter today and nobody cares right so yeah and the opposite I mean the hyper-vigilant end of the spectrum with this period of ancient Athens were yeah it's dragging your own father on on murder charges you know dragging your own father dragged in Socrates for impiety you know it's it becomes you know hyper vigilant in its in its concept of the law yeah and then you know the next step after that is sparta where the law you know the law becomes a tyrant beyond all imagining right yeah yeah I mean like I think part of the reason I'm part of the message of easy through is that like government should be a safeguard so that people don't become so pious that they're like cruel like oh that's an interesting okay I didn't get that as this one yeah well yeah you know like I think we don't we don't get the result of what happened with youth he froze indictment against his father but I gather from what I've read that generally at the time something like this would have just been thrown right that's right because it just it defied common sense like why would you why would you indict your own father for this it's obviously you know we get it we get it you you're so pious you're so my point is it would have been probably death penalty definitely events for the the murderer anyway that's that's the employee out go on yeah right yeah so so instead of right instead of him getting a fair trial before he was killed yeah right oh yeah yeah yeah so you're saying this gives a sense that the state should be a check on thee yeah but but then it's not the case of Socrates between the two then these two cases that are you know they're talking with each other from different sides of sides of the trial you know a lot of Socrates is a defendant and Euthyphro is the plaintiff right right look Socrates you know he's he's really a believer in personal individual virtue and that that's what he's going around trying to inspiring people to get them motivated to to reform themselves and I think that's a good kind of you know he's a moral he's a moralist he's a he's a street preacher yes yes that's what he's really going around doing and I think the next generation you know Plato Aristotle etc instead their obsession is with public education and the idea that the state can reform and all of society can improve through public education not Socratic method not one-on-one me asking you so what do you think virtue is or what do you think you know yeah you know that this kind of thing but of Universal mandatory public education I think I mean what's interesting about democracy whether you have a little bit of it or a lot of it as soon as those you know terrible life-and-death decisions are being made by the mob or being a better people it forces you to care passionately about public education is open how can we have this if we live in a society where people believe in witches and carry on witch trials right which this kind of is I mean that's kind of what's happening here yeah but it's also you know what happened the United States you know in the 17th century yeah you know and so on so sir I recently had a debate about education with an anarcho-capitalist on this and I was really having to hammer home to him cuz he was he was selling the lie that before government intervention like public education was just fine before the books before the public sector before government got involved I was saying to him no what do you mean fine everyone's illiterate people believe in Demon's people literally carry on would you what how do you find fine have you been to Saudi Arabia what's fine like you know so you know III think that is an interesting thing is that sharing power with the masses or entirely handing over the masses then puts you into a crisis of a public education I mean you know do you know do you trust the people do you trust a juror of your peers and this 500 of your peers would be 3,000 your peers do you trust them to judge you and to judge you kindly honestly or would you rather have one judge one expression I you know I know the terror of that I'm sorry but my divorce proceedings with my ex-wife it's unbelievably awful but you know first yeah has this power over me on the basis I mean this person knows me less than a viewer on my youtube channel you think she could get a better sense of my character for watching but you to be ok there's no consideration given to me or Who I am or have you sorry you know and it's all hangs on one person's character and one person's attention span and their care and their their kindness sympathy right and their their sympathy and their fairness and their their good judgment and even if even a reasonably good judge has got to be wrong once in a while yeah but do you want to stand there like Socrates and say don't kill me I'm a heretic but you know what it's for the greater good but you should value that's really this about it but you should value my dissent yeah I'm I'm a heretic who's making your society stronger this is his theory of the gadfly look I may be nipping at you I may be writing at you but it's but it's making you it's making you stay yeah yeah I mean I guess the only the answer is public education er that's how I would feel more comfortable with having the masses determined right whether I'm guilty of a crime or not you know so if I know that they've been through this public education system that supposedly should teach them what is piety but that's but that's not what comes out with Plato right because Plato's obsession is that what you have to teach the next generation is good and evil and in a sense that that even makes sense of course it's probably just because Plato's it in a maniac or whatever Plato's a really eccentric guy the more you read them but you know if you think about it that is itself it's understandable just as a response to the death of Socrates you know like what people need to know is good and evil they don't need Socrates asking you can you explain to me what skippin evil they mean that means the government to set this down in public education everyone's got to know good and evil and everyone's got to read the same story book we got to replace man with a story that really explains you good evil with no ambiguity that's what that's what what Plato that's good what the next revision did and of course you don't and then the next generation after that is is Aristotle who basically pisses all over everything played on to say yeah yeah and the next the next generation after that isn't extent it seems like Kearney ADIZ was a really brilliant philosopher on this exact issue of justice because Kearney ADIZ his philosophy is described in Cicero but it's not it's not extinct wasn't preserved by the Christian Church I'm guessing it was a little too scary from a Christian perspective but yeah so it kept on turning and then it's gone and then it's the Dark Age when we all know the meaning of justice is taking people and literally breaking them on the wheel literally torturing them to death in the public square in the name of a religion where your God died in a public execution the most elite Socrates died by drinking hemlock so look man I mean guys I'm gonna so I don't even know is this gonna go on your channel you can edit this you can sit or not it's your call but look you know uh you don't ask you why why celebrate Christmas if you guys want to you can revive there's an ancient you know festival for the the birthday of Socrates but I mean you know you can replace Chris but then all these attempts made to replace Christmas with something meaningful like Kwanzaa and you know what have you but I mean really I think you know this isn't it it is a tremendously meaningful story to tell and you can teach it to your children it's a lot more meaningful than you know Jesus being born in a manger or something and I mean in many ways the story of the death of Socrates it's the real Jesus before Jesus it's that that sense of you know all of society there's the there's the sin for this for this death you know complicit all right any less thoughts no