The Interview of the Century: Vegan vs. Frank Tufano.

what i'm getting from you is astrology
yes flat earth maybe but evolution is a hard no you're not regarding human the human diet the human like the physical and mental makeup human beings is the result of evolution if evolution it was true but you can see monkeys right you can see different varieties of cats and how if you take two stripy cats and make them together you can get a stripier cat and you get a solid beige cat you know like there are things we can observe that lean towards supporting human evolution so i think one of the more fundamental differences between us um is not whether or not i would sleep with hitomi suzuki which i wouldn't that's disgusting uh but i see your whole movement and what you're doing on your channel and in that particular book on the ancestral diet is being very backward looking looking to an ideal about the past whereas i would readily admit my own diet and also my own political philosophy and what i want to do with my is forward-looking it's about the future like i don't even think of veganism as a diet for the 21st century i think it's a diet for the 22nd century you know uh we're figuring it out and in a lot of ways i eat like a space man i mean i eat protein powder i have vitamin pills this is all stuff frank is moderately or extremely opposed to i mean i rely on pills to give me vitamin d and vitamin b12 to completely admit my diet would be deficient in a lot of things without completely unnatural scientific things but my ideology isn't based on ideas about nature or ancestral traditions from my perspective i would have a very weak argument if i'm living in japan and saying to japanese people hey you should all stop eating beef because your ancestors didn't eat beef and it seems to me you in europe would also have a weak argument and saying hey you should all go back to eating beef because your ancestry people i just don't see there being any kind of uh significance to what our ancestors did yeah go on i think there's a difference between us in terms of your optimism about the past and tradition and my optimism about the future frank defano so i could open this conversation by asking you who do you think is more miserable today vegan gains or spirits and i just point out to you relevant to the conversation we're having just in the first few seconds before we got rolling here one of the differences is vegan gains is currently a video game addict whereas spiridge is an ex-video game addict so i think that's a point in favor of spirits no i do yeah i mean i mean being engaged is visibly psychotic and definitely heavily depressed yeah he even acts like his videos i think sturridge is delusional to the point that i don't think he's really depressed just has a completely different mental state they're both complete psychos i think part of the appeal of spirit on the internet is that there's so much phoniness on social media and he's authentically sincerely crazy you know what i mean like when he's trying to convince you that the earth is flat or that the united states government is controlled by like a cannibal elite that's trying to eat your babies from the hospital and stuff he's really authentically living it you know so i think there's a premium on authenticity in the 21st century yeah you know there's some truth to everything but just blanket turning stuff like the earth is flat and really like listen there might so you think you think bill clinton does a little bit of baby eating on the side is that what you're saying here no hillary clinton no i mean i mean you'd honestly have to get the context there's too much context to get you know people watching you know you know vegan gains who's a popular vegan youtuber that basically just talks crap about other people and no one really likes him uh disparaging the wrong meat eating psycho that you know picks up on all the conspiracy theories and runs with them uh but it's tough to say if it's worth explaining you know the background of feelings the secret societies about everything's wrong because then when you go if people understand that it's face value that there are people that do control the world then you know talking about the stuff they actually do it's just more and more convincing that these people were in control like you kind of have to start with the base and be approachable and easy to prove stuff and then you know people the the flat earth stuff like to me i was like well even if the earth is but okay so that's just one other thing on the top of the pot why do you care so much after with this black and on this one uh there was a channel i came across i don't know how true it is um the book both the north and south paul expeditions were pretty much all fake and the a few hundred years ago the original maps of the initial adventures to the north pole they said it was some type of like magnetic mountain that emitted very very high levels of certain magnetic fields so so there is one other that would be an example of the truth to the flat earth stuff the point of acquiring stuff is not that the world is flat well there's more to know about it if they don't want us to know what so look for me when i look at someone like sphereage i don't feel that uncomfortable because both politically and ethically i'm the diametric opposite of them in every way but do you ever feel when you're looking at sphereage like hey this guy is my competition like like there's a little bit of a a little bit of a coke versus pepsi thing where no matter how superior you think coke is to pepsi you know what i mean like do you do that does it get into your skin a little bit i mean i would say no but i don't do in this competition i don't think that that right of the doctor that pledged residents competition i don't give any of these people's competition that being said there are certainly uh a woman with people that do follow spirits that are literally they're just as crazy as him yeah when i made that video talking about all the stupid the crazy stuff you've done whether it's manipulating people for money doing just really evil you know there's no other work for just evil cruel things people say oh that's fine we're like oh so and there was one crazy clip where he drank his he had his friend sent to a blood and he drank it and his viewers thought that was okay yep they're pro-cannibalism brainwashed people that will follow him regardless of what he does or sets and i think every viewer on youtube might have acted for people but especially they're willing to defend very very crazy psycho stuff i would say though still if you think about a happy marriage sphereage with luna as opposed to vegan gains with his life i still see it being more miserable to be locked in an apartment with vegan gains where one he's wasting time playing video games all day and then two he's wasting time obsessively trying to bench press 250 pounds all day like that is your life if you're sharing an apartment with vegans whereas you know with spirit you get outdoors you know what i mean like i think that i think overall that might be a happier marriage no if we're comparing the two that's kind of funny i mean that doesn't show how hard it will be no i know i know well yeah but look the other thing is vegan gains he's now proud that's his new record is that he can bench too big that's his personal best that he just achieved after 10 years his body weight is 250. i mean so you're only bench pressing your own body weight all of these vegans they're taking steroids and they're following diets if they weren't taking steroids they would shrivel up like the rest of them when a vegan takes steroids it basically makes them a little more muscular and stronger than the average person um but like that guy you might have got all the difference between him and someone like being means it's just the sheer amount of uh different compounds they take um probably thousands of thousands of drugs per month but yeah for sure being locked in an apartment with someone that just plays video games all day is depressed like psychotic has bipolar like yelling and screaming and all that type of crap i would imagine i legit forget it a jasmine gains also on only fans as fresh warm buns let me just mention i feel like i feel good for her i never want to be in that situation being fiscally dependent on him and the spirit of blue stuff they're both crazy right right well i mean we start this discussion with you being willing to recognize there's a great deal of craziness on the carnivore side of the equation i mean i think there are there are some people who come in and try to insist that no vegan gains is crazy and not spirits but i mean you know you're willing to admit there's a lot of craziness to go around on both sides the context of both vegan and carnivore size is pretty interesting we have the vegan agenda that came along with you know the new world order stuff starving people making their brains rot basically when people are being easier to control they have lower brain function and the carnivore came along because of i think the meat industry noticed it or saw it and then they decided to put some people on some popular podcast i mean back in 2016 when i started my youtube channel otherwise you've got subscribers i was following what i called the keto paleo diet and you know my channel was kind of just cruising for a couple years until the cardboard i really exploded in popularity because of joe rogan podcast and then my channel coincidentally exploded in popularity but i wasn't kind of a weird spot because i guess you could say the same thing about spirit because you know both of us were following like an animal-based on your diamonds differences uh he he came about it through gianni's monoplanets which is the rock primal diet which is a whole cold thing and i came about it through reading a couple different books some more research and that type of stuff and then this carnivore movement comes along and their goal is to sell like low quality crappy conventional animal products you know they don't do like some raw meat stuff it so for those who don't know he mentioned a name really briefly there arjunus wander planets and he was a man who was born autistic and he claimed that he cured his autism by eating raw meat you can watch his youtube videos and you can decide for yourself just how cured he was or just how autistic he remained on his raw meat diet for yourself was very intelligent objectively and he was right but the problem is he never really explained things from the scientific perspective he kind of used like sensationalism and crazy wild lies and stories to get his point across even if he understood the truth other days but that's the problem i had with those people so yeah adriana's firefighters wrote the book the raw final guy also the book we want to live and these morons will literally tell me oh uh you know you can cure mental revertation with a raw diet like like dude like right are you [ __ ] like what's the deal right they literally think you can cure anything or walk around to be fair on the vegan side one of the things that made me so many enemies in veganism is that i was opposing parallel arguments that a vegan diet can cure all kinds of traditions it can't possibly hear one of the biggest uh conflicts i had was about crohn's disease so at that time like the number two most famous youtuber in the vegan demi mod was a guy named durianrider now completely forgotten um yes he's fallen off the whole vegan scene imploded but he was making the claim that he had crohn's disease and that he cured crohn's disease by eating bananas this is if you have even a very simple understanding of what crohn's disease is you know this is impossible not improbable but impossible when you look at the details it turned out he never had crohn's disease at all it's just it was just [ __ ] about [ __ ] but genuinely when i stepped into the scene i was one of the very few people who was genuinely skeptical and saying hey guys we're building a social movement that's built on a lie because we're claiming the vegan diet cures all kinds of conditions that it can't possibly cure i think there's a lot of things to be said with that where yeah most people eat so much crap that regardless of what diet they follow if they remove some negative aspects and improve the quality of their food they're going to feel a lot better and in some cases if they do get all of those lifestyle and dietary factors correct they can cure seemingly lifelong health issues but usually the change isn't extreme enough in the world to do that and the average person especially the vegan social media influencer definitely doesn't have an understanding to realize what's going on there so i just say i find it a little strange that you think vegans in general wither away one youtuber you're a big fan of is hitomi mochizuki now let me ask you we're talking well we're talking about the future here not the past i think hitomi's career is at least five years deep on youtube if we were talking about the next five years would you rather be married to and living in the same apartment with in a high commitment relationship with donald marriage here not dating nothing would you rather be married to hitomi mochizuki or michaelia peterson the daughter of jordan peterson who endorses a 100 feet diet if this is this is the choice i put before you i i don't think you could i disagree i don't think you could like i started joking that she was my girlfriend and stuff and after i made one two videos on her i i was like i was going to turn her instagram or something to like i was actually gonna dm her and ask her if she wanted to do a collab video because i think it would be fun and get a lot of views and she had already blocked me on instagram before i even contacted her so she knew about me and now it's kind of like i'm just i'm almost like making fun of her right away by pretending that she's not because these people like these people in the club and together they just they absolutely despise me because i mean i i obviously point out the flaws in their guide what they're doing how ridiculous they are um one of the i haven't done a little while but the recent cardboard goes vegan video i did i took a i took like a monologue for one of her videos it was literally like 40 seconds of nonsense and i had to write it down because the way she strung the words together was so like incoherent that you have to put it down on paper and read it and try to get an idea of what she was saying to where she could but that one sense but no without a doubt it told me um i totally get it but if that's the choice you got to make are you really saying you'd rather be with michaela peterson and have a life where you eat nothing nothing but meat and vodka if that's the choice i think you have to admit to yourself that you're really drawn to hitomi mochizuki and partly as a psychological type i think you like the spiritual caring type and not this vicious carnivore type i think you got opposites attract homie i think you're i think you're into a toby i know i know the videos are a joke but i don't think your attraction to her is a joke i think that's you know opposite the track you're saying oh you have to live with them you have to share an apartment so you know you're going to share a kitchen you you just uploaded your first vegan cookie recipe i think you want to tell me would work better man it's all received by the vegans by me well no i mean look i think you've lived your whole life in the united states right i've never heard about you living outside of the states yeah i think you know my perspective on someone like hitomi is a little bit different from yours because you know when i was living as a white guy in thailand a lot of the other white people really were the hitomi suzuki type i was uh surrounded by uh good-looking spiritual seekers and you know i mean okay if you contrast it tell me what suzuki to vegan gains i think one of vegan gains most fundamental problems is that he just never reads a book you know and this relates to frank just did a video talking about the end of his bodybuilding journey so frank was talking about the fact that spending two hours a day at the gym really adds up and really cuts into the other things your life and i also agree with by the way frank talked about the extent to which really lifting heavy weights it impacts your sleep cycle results in taking naps in the middle of the day you know impacts you in different ways so yeah for me the the contrast is someone like vegan gains the tragedy of his life is he doesn't read anything and that's in large part because he's addicted to video games and to some extent addicted to weightlifting the number of always puts in there someone like katomi her tragedy is you know she does read books but the more she reads like the more deceived she is i mean she's reading this really crazy cult stuff that gets her deeper and deeper into a like hinduism reinterpreted for white people world view mix of hindi stuff i haven't really watched a lot of the videos outside of just kind of making fun of her days of eating but yeah if you looked at what she was saying the sheer amount of nonsense you can being a psycho or being an act it's kind of like 50 50 and i don't know if i'd become replacing a vet has been told me it is i'm pretty sure she's actually crazy oh yeah she's living it i mean she's living her truth there's no i think both of them are i mean i think i think you know this the extent to which spheroge is a phony i think is exactly the sort of thing you covered in your recent video about him it's exactly concealing anything that's a threat to his ego he lies about the stabbing incident when he was in school he lies about you know him breaking up and getting back together with his wife he lies about what happened with the girlfriend before that he was never on camera you know when he was paying his bills that's that's a really interesting yeah i mean there's a difference between someone using information to personally harm you and there's a different then there's something like you getting arrested for doing this like there's sure if someone's just trying to use something to make fun of you and make a false accusation like oh you uh um i don't know like you use steroids or whatever like someone makes a false accusation like that that's something that obviously if it's not true you should probably just disregard it but when you literally have articles about you doing a school standing when you literally have videos of you drinking you in blood like you kind of have to address those things because a lot of people see that stuff and if they have it right they're like jesus christ i've never watched that nuts i'll never listen to anything yeah the the school the school stabbing was covered in newspapers there's legal and historical evidence just mentioned he just addressed it i mean he was smart he would have addressed it and said hey i know i i i mean then he can tell he can say truthfully like i've changed 100 um that being said if he said like there's no rational thinking whatsoever to try to get himself to look better in public life and actually appeal to a reasonable crowd but that's not his name right but look i'm just suggesting i think there's part of you that's really drawn to someone more like hitomi and the other people you're you're peering across the aisle at on the vegan side just because they are fundamentally kind of caring sweet people and you know on the carnivore side it's a shark tank it's [ __ ] like jordan peterson and michaela peterson and spirit this is you know i'm sorry but you know the the the pro meet doctors these are these are obviously awful people in a very different way i wouldn't want to share an apartment with any of them not even a platonic basis there's no more comfortable to learn right so i mean i would say that the whole vegan scene on youtube died uh maybe two years ago now and i think it was probably inevitable that there was kind of a lagging indicator where then the carnivore movement started to collapse after that because there was kind of there was this wave of veganism i think you're right to name joe rogan on the carnivore side you know the the joe rogan promoting and discussing the carnivore diet and jordan peterson right sure sure that caused you but no but i would say you know the parallel that you might not know about is that the huge wave of interest in veganism was kicked off by oprah winfrey oprah winfrey featured veganism heavily and this is forget 2012 2013 something like that and then it caused this wave that continued to about 2016. so oprah winfrey you know in her time she was bigger than than joe rogan this caused this huge wave of interest and there were particular hit books and hit movies and something i was saying again again on the vegan side is look that can't last like by definitely batman can't be the number one movie every year x-men can't be like this is a temporary thing we've got to figure out how to live a meaningful life and have a meaningful movement that's not relying on this but i would say now maybe a year and a half after veganism started to die then we also started to see that the wave of interest and carnivorism uh starting to die so you know just ask you no you need to open it away like what do you see for yourself and say like the next five years as you said as we mentioned earlier the vegan movement both started by special interest funded um so i guess you could say bodies like government corporations for various reasons you know vegan both of them want to make money and sell products whether it's plant-based products or conventional meat products both of them have normal agendas both diets will damage your body in one type of way over a period of time so they're definitely not sustainable long-term the obvious vegan ones are two omega fatty acids b vitamin deficiency neurological issues muscle wasting like an animal protein the carnivore diet ends up leading to liver issues iron liver sibo candida dysbiosis usually vitamin c deficiency i think you mentioned that really briefly um vitamin c is not the largest i've heard you on your own videos mention vitamin c as one bit but the main factor is the diet is so deficient in copper that listen after after two three four five years on a vegan diet you eat some fish you feel like a million bucks two three four years on the cardboard diet your drinks pop pressure so i laugh you're gonna feel like [ __ ] for a year too a vegan diet causes well a vegan diet probably causes more damage long term but it's a lot easier to fix a carnivore diet doesn't cause as much damage but the damage takes a while to fix so you might have some memory brain issues cognition muscle wasting from being vegan but that damage to your liver on carbohydrate gut issues it could take two three four five years to resolve or in my experience with these vegan people as soon as they start eating meat again they like instantly feel better the carnivore people especially the ones i've consulted and people have tried to help with their diet listen i have people i started consulting a year ago and they've been getting better but they're still fixing the toppers they can balance and deliberations have you have you personally have you personally known anyone who got scurvy i.e scurvy means vitamin c deficiency when you have deficient vitamin c at least it's probably impossible to get actual scurvy oh i've i've known someone who got scurvy on me tied but she was actually doing it she was actually living it i mean that's the thing is are people actually eating what they say they eat not taking money uh i would say on a crackhead diet she got scurvy just being all the way real with you the thing is meat has a lot of b vitamins and it's it's very low stress on the body it's not going to stress the collagen but that's b vitamins not c vitamins but yeah yeah amino the meat only diet is not going to be discouraging what might happen is that someone made but scurvy usually happens on processed diets where there's no fresh properties so you think of uh vitamin c you think of fresh uh because and anti-scorpiotic means like anti-ascorbic anti-vitamin c so the only scenario where who doesn't have vitamin c is if it's a heavily processed like right so spirit endorses getting vitamin c from raw animal fat but i assume i thought you were a cooked meat person i mean you you endorsed meat you're not going to when you get me diet you're not gonna get scared if you eat like pentimens cookies and twinkies and uh they'll be the mac and cheese for a year you might get screwed that's usually not something i could have said at the beginning of this video is like my introduction to frank defano my first discovery of you and also a moment where i had to reflect on just how crazy a large percentage of my fellow vegans are was your face off with paul beshear which remains hilarious to me to this day not the event itself but the reaction of vegans who who behaved as if responded to this as if like oh like paul beshear just pwned frank that like somehow he'd won this debate this is a profound philosophical debate that paul beshear had won by calling you ugly and he i don't know if you saw this he backed this up he had a written text comment which to me was the same kind of spiritual [ __ ] you hear from people like tomi mochizuki where he was like look man i want you to know that when i called him ugly i wasn't talking about his physical appearance i meant it in like this deeply spiritual way and there's this whole audience of vegans who are like yeah hard hit yeah that's how to win an argument pitch a fit go nuts on the sidewalk behave like a little tyrant a little uh little napoleon and call someone ugly you know what's going on in the world because those are those vegan festivals that have suffered who knows if it'll ever happen again uh but yeah i think i mean i was making some silly comments like the guy kept grabbing the mic like and then like i called him uh i was like making a joke about his beard and wearing sunglasses and just that kind of stuff he got a little i kind of got a little angry and stuff and i was and i was kind of i wasn't really i was kind of getting to the point and kind of poking the hole and then there are vegan logic the gas lining from the vegans trying to convince everyone else that he won the yard wasn't funny i think uh i think you know the situation for someone like paul bashir so for those who don't know paul beshear is the leader of a vegan street activist movement that wears a distinctive type of white mask and stands holding a video uh video monitor so if many of you if you don't know the name paul bashir you'll be vaguely familiar that's correct yeah yeah yeah um you know i'd see paul beshear's situation as actually being fundamentally the same as spirit which is that there is no way to win politically when you are discrediting your own character to this extent like it doesn't matter how right you think you are or how right your coven of followers thinks you are when you've totally described you've just demonstrated yourself to be kind of a terrible human being and if you don't know paul beshear now has a major financial scandal on his hands which revealed the extent oh no he was receiving millions of dollars millions and this is i'm one of the few vegan youtube channels that really scrutinizes what vegan foundations do with their money like you know part of the question is okay so if you've been getting millions of dollars how expensive are those masks how expensive is it to have 20 people stand around the sidewalk and kind of do nothing you know no they don't know and that that was part of the scandal was getting into how much money he was paying to himself and his girlfriend and how little money was being given to the branches and local people there were a very small number of people at the top making salaries and then how much money was being spent on flights around the world well look sorry you know to focus in on poll for a second but i think what i'm about to say about paul who gave him all this money it was donated through yes it was donated and the reason why this scandal happened was that one of the big donors someone who was giving about a million dollars a year roughly you can get the specific numbers from my channel but yeah there was one big donor who put the brakes on and said whoa i need to have an accountant look at where the money's going i don't trust this i have questions and then paul got aggravated and antics ensued you know it went it went downhill from there because you know how paul's attitude is he doesn't like it's very embarrassing to everything already it's hippie attitudes man these are not business people these are not these are not political people i mean they think about this stuff in a very spiritual you know very spiritual way but look you know so this is why i'm putting this to you again i don't know how much you know this side of it but you know paul beshear just like joey carbstrong so i assume you at least know the name joey carter paul beshear just like joey carbstrong began his career in chiang mai thailand as a durian writer and free league clones uh no maybe you can put your hand in front of camera for a second get it to wake up and focus on you you're still out of focus amazingly but look i don't mind we can just keep going so these guys these types of guys uh specifically paul beshear and also joey carvestrong they began their careers fame whoring in the apartments of our times you know trying to get social media clout in chiang mai thailand riding on the coattails of uh durianrider and freely you know they were there in thailand at that event and the beginning of paul bashir's movement his organization um i'm sorry anonymous for the voiceless was on the streets of chiang mai town it was white tourists doing this and then uploading it to youtube and then asking for donations so there's this very kind of powerful cycle of donation seeking fame chasing you know uh youtube collaborations like you can pretend that these organizations exist only for their real world political function like what they do on the street but the reality is the economy of what they're the economics of what they're doing is completely linked to youtube social media fundraising it's watch the video click now far more people see the youtube video than see you standing there on the sidewalk and this all this all began with people wanting to imitate freelance on i mean you can tell me but like when you look at your own i know you you partly are in the category of like a fitness weight loss diet and exercise youtuber but as you're now leaving the carnivore diet like what do you see as the arc i know i mean does it are people trying to be the next jordan peterson i mean is that is that the competition and the confidence is what people are trying to deal with community yeah i mean what's what's going to happen next on your side of the aisle whether you think of that as carnivore or were you thinking that as fitness or whatever well i would do i mean i gotta i'm focusing on another book on i haven't really done too much work on it yet because i'm not like all these other people uh that you know a lot of these are the carnivore special interest funded chills they've been cardboard for six months they write a book just to make get book sales and have connections and that type of nonsense uh i'm probably gonna let the guy go for i've been following this diet now since uh about two or three months i'm gonna give it at least probably another year year and a half two years uh before i i mean i'm gonna work on the book because i kind of i mean listen i have all the information down the diet hasn't really changed that much i could probably release the book in a month or two if i really wanted to but i i think from an integrity perspective and and look even if i have most of the information there's probably not five or ten percent that'll just come along along the way so sometime like next year early 2022 i should have uh a new book ready to go though that'll be the kind of new diet philosophy that i think that a lot of people are looking i think an issue that most people do have a need to correct in their diet but i mean compared to the first book identity in special images a lot of the a lot of the principles are still there and i even mentioned i even mentioned in in that book but it's something that's usually overlooked and not focused on enough so um this turned out that's basically you know a lot of lean meat grain-based high-quality organic mineral inflammation seeing what food your body digests efficiently uh focuses on some very very specific components of food and then that's going to be my next step so i'm not continuing the health education stuff i need to do video still pepper in some fitness videos here and there some dietary critiques and and just and just trying to improve people's health but that next big step in the dietary context i think if when i do come out with that book it's gonna it's gonna do really well and it's gonna bring a concept that a lot of people haven't really considered to a larger scale and yeah there are dads with every idea there are other people that talk about it and thought of it they just haven't really presented it in the proper way or not all the aspects of it so i think one of the more fundamental differences between us um is not whether or not i would sleep with hitomi suzuki which i wouldn't that's disgusting uh but i see your whole movement and what you're doing on your channel and in that particular book on the ancestral diet as being very backward looking looking to an ideal about the past whereas i would readily admit my own diet and also my own political philosophy and what i want to do with my is forward-looking it's about the future like i don't even think of veganism as a diet for the 21st century i think it's a diet for the 22nd century you know we're figuring it out and in a lot of ways i eat like a space man i mean i eat protein powder i have vitamin pills this is all stuff frank is moderately or extremely opposed to i mean i rely on pills to give me vitamin d and vitamin b12 completely admit my diet would be deficient in a lot of things without completely unnatural scientific things but my ideology isn't based on ideas about nature or ancestral traditions so just i just put this to you if you were japanese you would come from a culture where traditionally nobody ate cows there were no cows in japan prior to basically trade with americans the first cow ever slaughtered in japan was actually to feed a diplomatic representative from the american embassy the idea that your ancestral diet that's right well now they play baseball too they didn't play baseball before they trade with the americans that's a lot of american culture has become obsessed over in japan has become more popular than traditional japanese culture but i mean from my perspective i would have a very weak argument if i'm living in japan and saying to japanese people hey you should all stop eating beef because your ancestors didn't eat beef and it seems to me you in europe would also have a weak argument and saying hey you should all go back to eating beef because your ancestry people i just don't see there being any kind of uh significance to what our ancestors did yeah the correlation there is the presence of animal foods in all indigenous groups all right um one and one i mean some coastal indians i used to stay around the florida peninsula were eating shellfish mostly sure basically all dies of shellfish crab moles crustaceans that a lot of vegans consider to be okay of what are they called bit experience i don't know it's where they only eat shellfish and then so you do have a directional contrast between those groups of the needs and then you could have complained to indians that are traveling on icing every single day so so the consistency across whether it's some alaskans eating fish and caribou and steel versus some italians fishing for some bronzino and having people with their wheat is there is a presence around all indigenous diets regardless of their location and then what determines kind of their physical development their height the other aspect is the percentage of plants in the diet right japanese it seems to me you're open-minded about the flat earth versus spherical earth thing but i take it you do regard human beings as products of evolution i mean long historical yeah there's too many lies and everything kind of that they they tell us to deceive us from certain things uh the evolution i definitely don't believe okay so you do you regard human beings as created by a divine creator god or what's your what's your position on the origin of origin and design of human there's not i mean life i pretended like what was going on um i would probably i mean the people that really know the truth the facts are uh the high-level secret society members the global elite they know whatever the truth the true history of what's happened in the past thousand thousand years and a lot of these secrets that these people keep were actually known by some of those indigenous tribes as well native americans of aborigines just natural things they observed on a lot of what what i've learned recently is a lot of truth comes from astrology and although most people view those astrology girls as absolutely [ __ ] crazy um yeah yeah the thing that has convinced me about astrology is looking into the actual history of the past few thousand years however what i'm getting from you is astrology yes flat earth maybe but evolution is a hard no you're not regarding human the human diet the human like the physical and mental makeup human beings is the result of evolution that's your position yeah as if i've walked outside of my house i can see stars in the sky and if i look straight across you know i'm not i can't see i can't fly up and see the shape of the air so i don't know whether the earth is fine or not i don't know what i can certainly say is there there's not enough proof to know what the earth is what type of plane you're living on there's no proof what really gets me curious is how many planes mysteriously disappear probably when the pilot gets curious when they shoot it um i'm sure that the the flights and the commercial airlines are having to be heavily regulated where the program as soon as that person goes on track about their destiny that plan goes missing 100 but you can see monkeys right you can see different varieties of cats and how if you take two stripy cats and make them together you can get a stripier cat and you get a solid beige cat you know like there are things we can observe that lean towards supporting human evolution right that human beings like all other biological enemies so that that's what i'm asking is are you are you on board with evolution as a broad concept or no well it depends on my evolution that that's what i mean anything like a cat can eventually turn into a human if it did certain things now i think i think if you get for instance if you gave a human you know if you had a human eat two pounds of steak every day and milk you know if you had if you took an italian family and had them only eat bean and milk like the danish for like five generations they're going to be taller and bigger and larger for sure because their skeletons don't change but regardless of what you beat someone in the environment you change them in you're never going to evolve them into a different species a different being you might be able to change certain factors about that species as you said the color of the skin the stripes the size of the animal what foods they're efficient that eating if it's a gradual change but if it's if it's an extreme change then the species just goes extinct and bonds okay so you think 50 million years ago human beings were the same as they are now getting into millions of years ago well i do just tell you i mean you know some of us live with you know the basement of the smithsonian who knows what kind of [ __ ] oh my parents do you may not know my parents are in the museum planning against my whole life so i just say i grew up in an elite museum family actually they know exactly what's in the basement of the smithsonian and every leading you see around the world including the louvre in paris funny you should mention that but yeah i grew up in a museological family i'd like to see what's buried under those museums okay dude i'll tell you i'll tell you right now okay if you go to a museum that has a collection of ming vaz's so these are vases from chinese history the most beautiful or most distinctive ones are shown to visitors the museum and then in the basement they have 20 or 30 other similar vases that aren't quite as interesting or beautiful to look at that's what you find in the basement so if they got a couple of you know tyrannosaurus rex fossils it's the prettiest or most distinctive ones that are on display and then you go out of the basement and they got a bunch of ugly crumbled broken up ones that is what you find in museums is stuff that's not uh not viable exhibit material that's most of what you get down there but no museum warehouses are not particularly fascinating places and they don't really have the budget to keep a lot of great secrets so yeah you might be you might be sorely disappointed if you went to the basement of the of the smithsonian certainly it's funny to me though you're you're really saying that you regard human life as not not produced by evolution at all and and all animal life like in general tigers and lions they didn't they didn't evolve from i i mean as with a lot of things people talk about there's no visible in front of the eye group and the thing that really opened me up to this is at the peak of you know what you know the pandemic uh when they'll be monsters are supposed to be full i went to the hospital see what was going on so now you know that that led me to kind of never really believe in what someone tells me okay yeah if someone tells me something and i'll see with my own two eyes if there's not an incredible amount of proof or happening then i do not believe it because the lies and deception that have been basically perpetuated onto everyone their entire lives is absolutely the same right well you know we do have a skeletal record which is not all fossils including just bones and we have the fact that whales have hip bones with leg sockets in them still to this day they can never use that swimming just in the skeleton of great whales as they still exist in the state there's evidence that in the past they walked on land so right now if you kill a whale and take it apart yourself or if you go to a museum and see a whale skeleton there's evidence in innate within the skeleton of the whale and then we can show you it's very often in the basement of a museum but you can show you in a textbook also that we have fossils and skeletal remains from other stages tracing back to the fact that whales used to be something quite different from a whale that whales actually did have a relation to land mammals and that's why they're they're mammals that's why they don't have gills so you can you can see it to this i mean if you take interest in it you can you [Music] i think the government i see what humans do now is very basic things and when someone's going to try to convince me that they're they have all this you can say that and that's the problem with that is that's the images and the proof they've given like even if you took a little artist it'll give you similarities in the bone structure of correct humans right they still have fingers within their flipper they have bones for what used to be fingers they have hip bones so it used to be legs i mean this goes back to the context of what happened like obviously if you were there watching over if evolution it was true the only way you can prove it is if you have some type of top capsule and you can watch it over millions and millions and millions of years right now right okay but you know i'd say to you this look i i believe in skepticism in the true philosophy okay right but this is what i've said you is sometimes the opposite of a theory fails the same test for skepticism so if one theory is over time life on earth adapted and changed in response to conditions but then the opposite theory is no life on earth stayed the same for millions of years that whales never changed that if you go back 5 million years 10 million years 50 million years 100 million years that whales remained exactly the same skepticism doesn't favor that theory that's actually a much harder theory to prove and it can be disproven so the idea that human beings were always the same or whales was them that actually is the one that's impossible whereas the the assumption is more skeptical to say oh you know what in the same way that we can take two cats now and have them have kittens and we see some changes and we can take two different cats that we can breed cats and produce different changes in the color of their fur in the same way over millions of years you're going to get structural adaptations and that's consistent with a lot of evidence so to say skepticism you have to look at counterposed hypotheses not just look at one hypothesis and reject it just because it's a hypothesis so a first line has a lifespan of what a day some of that yeah let's let's say it's a day so if you took a fruit fly a lifespan of the day it would take you about eight years to replicate one million years of evolution was the last time i can fly so why why would you not do something like that oh if evolution was possible they do they do they do they do these are believe me as a vegan i've read about many horrifying experiments when thing where things like this are done to animals and much worse no no these types of experiments are done with uh small fast reproducing organisms precisely to affirm different theories about evolution so if you start reading about it you'll find those are exactly the types of of experiments people do using uh animals with a short life spam fast reproductive cycle to show the changes that happen within a hundred generations that's exactly the biological design there's probably a reason that no one really talks about that or is brought up in the context because then that gets people thinking and they want to find some stuff that doesn't do this frank if you start hanging out with a different crowd in downtown new york you're going to find there actually a lot of people who are into this i'm sure new york university there are university departments dedicated to this stuff and there were lectures and there are museums you're actually finding where a lot of people are fascinated by this it's not as popular as video games but sure a lot of people are into it yeah so look i was asking you yeah i mean honestly i mean i mean not to say this whole conversation is pointless but what i said earlier was you know i'm you're looking at charts and graphs and information that was established by hundreds and thousands of other people geologists whatever if i was in a position where i if i was if i went to school for geology for astrology if i understood the context of every single aspect of what was going on here and i can make an educated decision based on that but i'll tell you right now i'm not taking what someone tells me at face value unless i can understand that's why with diet and nutrition and health and lifestyle i understand it's the point where i'm comfortable conveying to other people uh and if sometimes a thing comes up as far as making sense and starts putting pieces together like like the actual world map from three four hundred years ago that was documented by certain explorers whether there's truth to certain things or not the problem with this this evolution based value stuff is at least the information that i've had access to at face value to me is inadequate for me to really say anything okay so look i understand that's that's a type of skepticism so the question is going to put you i didn't know we get into a big discussion about evolution is this you know i'm reflecting on the significance of tradition and traditional diet for you and you again you have a book where that's really stated in the title that's your approach is kind of aboriginal indigenous and ancient traditions that relates to diet you know if you imagine a parallel universe or a science fiction universe where instead of human beings evolving from apes which again controversial but setting that aside treating it as a foregone inclusion where instead we had a bunch of intelligent pythons you know the python eats 100 meat diet they're a predator goes around eat something and then they hibernate they sit in a tree and digest the whole thing swallow animals whole set there and let's just say hypothetically in this other universe over millions of years the pythons get smarter and smarter and smarter and they're completely accustomed to 100 meat raw meat carnivore diet but at some point they're intelligent enough that they stop and say you know what this is barbaric we have to adapt we have to change culturally technologically we have to invent a better way of living you know can't you see veganism in that sense not as a traditional or ancestral diet but as a diet that could make sense something we could do for the 22nd century i mean you can go down a list of every single component down to town down to the molecule and planting for samples and easily explain how it's damaging the person's body right but you could you could make all that stuff in a lab right and so could if it the pythons and it's not possible right now they can't do it right if they could do it if they could do it they're certainly not doing it in the masses if they were i mean i mean i'm assuming they have the technology and capacity to understand every single molecule or a piece of you know wild gaming right a piece of something but if they if they didn't understand that then they realize that it's not hospitals so you don't you don't think in the future at some point technology will be advanced enough that people could have the equivalent of wild boar meat all those nutrients i'm suggesting to you that this could be a technology that's as yet unknown but that in the future wouldn't it be possible for all of your complaints about the vegan diet to be rendered obsolete through human ingenuity through hard there were there would be work type of machine that was so complex that i could literally replicate the exact molecule in the same way that i'm able now to get vitamin d and vitamin b12 from a pill that in the future molecule by molecule whatever it is you think is most desirable about a meat diet that that could could become well divided in the vitamin d supplement example i mean there's there's different properties when you orderly consume vitamin d3 supplement versus what happens about a body when you expose your skin to the sun itself even that is even that i i get it but i mean you know i think i think this is the difference between us as they say it's not just whether or not i would turn down hitomi suzuki which i totally would i think there's a difference between us in terms of your optimism about the past and tradition and my optimism about the future i think that's a very fundamental lab swap difference vegetable seed oils and pea protein so i don't i don't again if they did have the technology of the machines in the capacity to do to make a literal aggressive beach take i would be i mean you you break it down to the molecular structure of that atomic structure i don't even know if it would be possible okay what type of raw material input would you have frank it's been possible it's been great talking to you we're at the one hour mark i would be happy to interview you again in the future i mean i don't know what's gonna happen i don't know if you're gonna go back to uh you know confronting uh you know the vegan uh protesters on the street what i mean i i just say i see you as a creative person and i see carnivore diet advice as a creative dead end so i don't believe you're going to be doing the same thing one year from now or even six months from now that you were doing in the past i think you're going to take on new directions right i know the um 20-year couple there they i i made the video exposing them for the fake real estate stuff in the background they're much alive i know how long they've been on the night the vegan some vegans might be eating fish here in there but at least they mostly here but look i'm vegan but i don't do any promotion of the diet on my channel i don't do a diet i regard diet as a dead end and i think that if you're really a creative person and something i've also heard you talk about the channel you do care about ethics you do care about politics in a in a strange sense you care about science also as you just you know you're engaged with a lot of these questions i think whatever direction you're going to take on your channel i don't think it's going to be repeating what you've done in the last two years i think you're going to do something new and i welcome it i welcome the change i'm looking forward to seeing what happens next with frank defano thanks to conversation and i'm happy to talk to you again when you're available