DxE is Anti-Vegan: they lied about it, and it still matters.
26 March 2018 [link youtube]
DxE is an abbreviation for "Direct Action Everywhere". To hear the full conversation quoted here, cf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZFJZOfH5iQ
This youtube channel does, indeed, have a whole playlist of videos criticizing DxE, and, sadly, we're not running out of material to criticize:
https://www.youtube.com/user/HeiJinZhengZhi/playlists
Youtube Automatic Transcription
- yen you go to the direct action
everywhere website and search the word vegan up pops intrinsically moved the main reason consumerist advocacy is the wrong approach you see it stop talking about veganism then it also says veganism is not cruelty-free and then it says how the go vegan message perpetuates the objectification of nonhumans so I'm really not finding anything positive about going vegan from DXE Wayne and I I think that before the break Gary was saying like well what is somebody supposed to do you know I mean you say okay well you want to enter and intervene if somebody's beating a dog on the street you have a nine billion animals who are being slashed to death I don't know do we go to the slaughterhouses and turn off the electricity or do we go vegan what what does until every animal is free mean to you and and and how do we achieve standing up in ship hotly and saying it's not food it's violence how is there any more quote action end quote than then labeling and spending hours talking to people about why they should go vegan if they regard animals as members of the moral community you're obstructing our business we have been stolen why is there any more action why not it's absolutely not Gary and I think they're both very important forms of activism but I just want to pose maybe a rhetorical question for the two of you have either of you actually ever been inside one of these places of violence when these houses Wayne how many of you been in I've been in probably about 60 and I've investigated many of them not not consensually but in the cover of night and when you've been inside of these facilities over and over again not on a tour not on a visit but to identify the most terrible abuses that are happening behind these closed doors there's something that changing you and I was in a northern California wholefoods farm just a few months ago and what you see when you go inside these farms is an urgent and desperate need for action now hens that are covered with filth dying dozens of them already dead laying in piles everywhere hens that can barely even breathe because the air is so filled with sulfur dioxide and filth that it burns their throat every breath they take and the recently this sort of violent way over and over again it inspires you to action because for every one that you say and we did save a number of these hens from this facility there are literally thousands who are left behind action Gary let me finish I let you talk and I don't know rumps I'd appreciate it if you didn't interrupt me it inspires you and gives you a sense of just how important it is to take direct and immediate action to rescue these animals but this is not just an emotional reaction could I finish all this Gary I don't try to live it I just had one thought Gary and I'm just about done can I just finish it what thought because this isn't just an emotional reaction we say we need to take nonviolent direct action and not just settle veganism because as a social scientist who has studied social movements for the past 10 years of my life with some of the best scholars in the world I can tell you that non-violent direct action has the power to change the world the Underground Railroad brought down the system of chattel slavery when free produce could not Emmeline Pankhurst disruptions of Parliament not education but disruption brought women the right to vote in the United Kingdom and from the United Kingdom the world and the only who was willing to take waitwait says he has one sentence left so let the little item so Erica Chenoweth the political scientist who won the prize for being the best political scientist in 2013 has studied hundreds of social women's over the past 200 years and has said that all you need is three point five percent of the population at a maximum three point five percent of the population engaged and nonviolent direct action disruption and you're guaranteed to win most social movements win with far less so all we need to do is convince two out of a hundred people to go out there and yes disrupting chipotle just suck the whole foods just up the slaughterhouse our factory farm disrupt all of them and we will bring so much attention to this cause that the issue of animal rights will be on the New York Times front page every day of the year going vegan is nonviolent direct action so social science exactly the social science studies that I've seen talk about 10% of a population and I'm all in favor trying to get the 10% so that we can change the conversation but I think Wayne you've simplified those those social science findings but let's not what I want to talk about you rescued a couple of hen and you you Poe you know you post all this stuff this this this this material that promotes your organization this idea that you are involved like on a daily basis with going and disrupting all you're doing is standing up in chapala saying it's not food it's violence and you don't even have a vegan message you partner with organizations that send public letters the whole foods expressing their appreciation and support including Bruce Friedrich including PETA including Farm Sanctuary including compassion over killing including vegan outreach these organizations support whole food those are the groups that you thing we need to build bridges with those are the groups that you talked about supporting incremental reform as long as it's sustainable I mean Wayne what are we talking about here and I'm also looking at Animal Liberation because you astonish me waiting for somebody who's been studying things for 10 years you really need to read Animal Liberation granted even here killing still seems repugnant an animal may struggle against a threat to its life even if they cannot grasp that it has a life in the sense that requires an understanding of what it is to exist over a period of time but in the absence of some form of mental continuity it is not easy to explain why the loss to the animal killed is not from an impartial point of view made good by the creation of a new animal who will lead an equally pleasant life there you go Wayne that's animal liberation from way back then and you're telling me that that you're that you use Animal Liberation because you agree with what Peter Singer said back then well sorry that's what he said back then maybe you ought to think about reading the book and changing the location because it's not a matter of terminology it's a very important matter of substance Gary we can have a debate about what Peter Singer believed in 1975 I think it would be better to ask him directly but the reality is we are not working to Peter Singer we are not working with brusque readers we are challenging them I agree completely that welfarism makes people complacent but there is no evidence that it leads to real improvements for animals in the short or long term if we want to problematize animal welfare and we want to problematize the humane meat scam then we are doing it and I'm asking you Gary what have you done over the past year to problematize the humane myth or to encourage animal rights activist to challenge it I think that's progress we should know if lanes whole food is full of meat I have news for you okay I don't know what you think you've done number one number two as far as what people in the welfare movement concern I can document for you the fact that they have been talking out of they talk out of both sides of their mouth so you can say well Ingrid has attacked the Humane myth at the same time that I'm looking at a website from Bell & Evans chicken where Ingrid is talking about how Bell & Evans has set a new standard with the chicken industry so they talked out of different sides of their fundraising mouths I can't doubt that indeed indeed I've been pointing that out for a number of years now but the idea what is this this idea what have you been doing to show that the that the whole humane exploitation thing is a scam Wayne I and every date of death investigation in New York Times Gary I'm sorry we had an investigation of a humane farm there was in the New York Times it over foggy many people around the world song we have thousands of people right into a sing during comes out Wayne what comes out is that you're attacking the idea that these places are humane you're not attacking the use and you're not attacking use your attacking treatment just like MFA does just like compassion over killing does just like all of these other groups do you attack treatment you don't attack use the only way you can attack use if they have a vegan message and you said it before well I copied it down Wayne I hope it's an accurate quote you said I do not agree that veganism is the moral baseline action is the moral baseline Wayne I'm sorry that is absolutely incoherent you need to have a theory to inform your action this idea that we don't have to go vegan that veganism is an impediment to the animal movement but we need action what are you talking about that is incoherent Jerry I don't think anyone who's currently involved in THC thinks veganism is an impediment to the animal rights movement I know there's some blog posts written by another organizer and we do allow a lot of diversity of opinion within DXE but all of us agree that veganism is a necessary condition to achieving animal liberation but our perspective is just that we have to go beyond that and again Gary I let's start can we start with the dog right in front of you do you think inaction is enough or do you think we have to go something to something beyond that and if we do want to go to something beyond there why not ask people for what we should be asking them for action for animals instead of just their own personal lives right away wait why do we need investigation what do we need to discover they're killing the animals whether they're doing it nicely or whether they're doing it not nicely they're killing the animals for an investigation for except for fundraising white did fundraise not that investigation a single dog but Gary do you believe that your main base Wayne Wayne Wayne wait you're on radio now you're telling me you're telling me that you've got no no donations for your activist stipend as these not put out a single solicitation for funds after that investigation not a single one our 2014 budget was four thousand dollars which is ten thousand dollars ten thousand times less than it is a hundred thousand times less distressed it's really an astonishing conversation we had here it seems that Wayne you have confirmed your support for Bruce Friedrich and the the groups with whom he is associated what's what's astonishing to me is how you how you support him when you know I mean you're probably rescuing chickens from the conditions he's created with support his support Farm Sanctuary support all these group support for the egg products Inspection Act and enrich cages are now the humane standards so go rescue chickens from the conditions created by bruce friedrich wayne says first if our goal is network building it's absolutely vital to emphasize that our model of activism building a movement for non-violent direct action complements many of the strategies taken by other groups if we are successful as i fully expect we will be our activism will make the lobbying outreach and education that bruce friedrich does exponentially more effective wayne as i've been trying to say for years these groups are the meat industry they are butchers i don't know how you don't see that and i don't see why why you're not protesting against bruce for the conditions he created from which you have to rescue chickens nonviolent direct action is a strong is it more important to be an activist or a vegan if you had your choice and if we are confident that we can win the debate our main objective is activist and as a movement has to be to bring attention to this issue and with over 200 press articles about our campaigns and investigations over the past year we have brought a massive amount of attention to this issue and we're winning that argument your branding Wayne and I I agree you're doing a good job of branding I'm looking at your website where you talk about your groundbreaking investigations and there's our big fat red donate button so please do not say that you are not fundraising off of your investigations it's on your page point number one point number two the idea that you know the this idea that we can be activists but we don't have to be vegan is content list nonsense it is content list nonsense did anyone say that Gary I'm sorry did anyone say that what that we can be active effective activists about being vegan I don't think anyone said like you I think Wayne what we said is that to be an effective at Wayne Wayne you see I'm trying to have a discussion Wayne I don't want to hear your speeches I'd like to have a discussion with you sure and I'm trying to have a discussion and I have to I have to I can't engage you I have to wait until you get done so please let me if we're gonna do it that way let me get done what you said was I do not believe that veganism is the moral baseline action is the moral baseline that's what you said that's a quote do you deny saying that because you did so you tell me how that makes sense to you because I think that is content with nonsense [Music] evolution
everywhere website and search the word vegan up pops intrinsically moved the main reason consumerist advocacy is the wrong approach you see it stop talking about veganism then it also says veganism is not cruelty-free and then it says how the go vegan message perpetuates the objectification of nonhumans so I'm really not finding anything positive about going vegan from DXE Wayne and I I think that before the break Gary was saying like well what is somebody supposed to do you know I mean you say okay well you want to enter and intervene if somebody's beating a dog on the street you have a nine billion animals who are being slashed to death I don't know do we go to the slaughterhouses and turn off the electricity or do we go vegan what what does until every animal is free mean to you and and and how do we achieve standing up in ship hotly and saying it's not food it's violence how is there any more quote action end quote than then labeling and spending hours talking to people about why they should go vegan if they regard animals as members of the moral community you're obstructing our business we have been stolen why is there any more action why not it's absolutely not Gary and I think they're both very important forms of activism but I just want to pose maybe a rhetorical question for the two of you have either of you actually ever been inside one of these places of violence when these houses Wayne how many of you been in I've been in probably about 60 and I've investigated many of them not not consensually but in the cover of night and when you've been inside of these facilities over and over again not on a tour not on a visit but to identify the most terrible abuses that are happening behind these closed doors there's something that changing you and I was in a northern California wholefoods farm just a few months ago and what you see when you go inside these farms is an urgent and desperate need for action now hens that are covered with filth dying dozens of them already dead laying in piles everywhere hens that can barely even breathe because the air is so filled with sulfur dioxide and filth that it burns their throat every breath they take and the recently this sort of violent way over and over again it inspires you to action because for every one that you say and we did save a number of these hens from this facility there are literally thousands who are left behind action Gary let me finish I let you talk and I don't know rumps I'd appreciate it if you didn't interrupt me it inspires you and gives you a sense of just how important it is to take direct and immediate action to rescue these animals but this is not just an emotional reaction could I finish all this Gary I don't try to live it I just had one thought Gary and I'm just about done can I just finish it what thought because this isn't just an emotional reaction we say we need to take nonviolent direct action and not just settle veganism because as a social scientist who has studied social movements for the past 10 years of my life with some of the best scholars in the world I can tell you that non-violent direct action has the power to change the world the Underground Railroad brought down the system of chattel slavery when free produce could not Emmeline Pankhurst disruptions of Parliament not education but disruption brought women the right to vote in the United Kingdom and from the United Kingdom the world and the only who was willing to take waitwait says he has one sentence left so let the little item so Erica Chenoweth the political scientist who won the prize for being the best political scientist in 2013 has studied hundreds of social women's over the past 200 years and has said that all you need is three point five percent of the population at a maximum three point five percent of the population engaged and nonviolent direct action disruption and you're guaranteed to win most social movements win with far less so all we need to do is convince two out of a hundred people to go out there and yes disrupting chipotle just suck the whole foods just up the slaughterhouse our factory farm disrupt all of them and we will bring so much attention to this cause that the issue of animal rights will be on the New York Times front page every day of the year going vegan is nonviolent direct action so social science exactly the social science studies that I've seen talk about 10% of a population and I'm all in favor trying to get the 10% so that we can change the conversation but I think Wayne you've simplified those those social science findings but let's not what I want to talk about you rescued a couple of hen and you you Poe you know you post all this stuff this this this this material that promotes your organization this idea that you are involved like on a daily basis with going and disrupting all you're doing is standing up in chapala saying it's not food it's violence and you don't even have a vegan message you partner with organizations that send public letters the whole foods expressing their appreciation and support including Bruce Friedrich including PETA including Farm Sanctuary including compassion over killing including vegan outreach these organizations support whole food those are the groups that you thing we need to build bridges with those are the groups that you talked about supporting incremental reform as long as it's sustainable I mean Wayne what are we talking about here and I'm also looking at Animal Liberation because you astonish me waiting for somebody who's been studying things for 10 years you really need to read Animal Liberation granted even here killing still seems repugnant an animal may struggle against a threat to its life even if they cannot grasp that it has a life in the sense that requires an understanding of what it is to exist over a period of time but in the absence of some form of mental continuity it is not easy to explain why the loss to the animal killed is not from an impartial point of view made good by the creation of a new animal who will lead an equally pleasant life there you go Wayne that's animal liberation from way back then and you're telling me that that you're that you use Animal Liberation because you agree with what Peter Singer said back then well sorry that's what he said back then maybe you ought to think about reading the book and changing the location because it's not a matter of terminology it's a very important matter of substance Gary we can have a debate about what Peter Singer believed in 1975 I think it would be better to ask him directly but the reality is we are not working to Peter Singer we are not working with brusque readers we are challenging them I agree completely that welfarism makes people complacent but there is no evidence that it leads to real improvements for animals in the short or long term if we want to problematize animal welfare and we want to problematize the humane meat scam then we are doing it and I'm asking you Gary what have you done over the past year to problematize the humane myth or to encourage animal rights activist to challenge it I think that's progress we should know if lanes whole food is full of meat I have news for you okay I don't know what you think you've done number one number two as far as what people in the welfare movement concern I can document for you the fact that they have been talking out of they talk out of both sides of their mouth so you can say well Ingrid has attacked the Humane myth at the same time that I'm looking at a website from Bell & Evans chicken where Ingrid is talking about how Bell & Evans has set a new standard with the chicken industry so they talked out of different sides of their fundraising mouths I can't doubt that indeed indeed I've been pointing that out for a number of years now but the idea what is this this idea what have you been doing to show that the that the whole humane exploitation thing is a scam Wayne I and every date of death investigation in New York Times Gary I'm sorry we had an investigation of a humane farm there was in the New York Times it over foggy many people around the world song we have thousands of people right into a sing during comes out Wayne what comes out is that you're attacking the idea that these places are humane you're not attacking the use and you're not attacking use your attacking treatment just like MFA does just like compassion over killing does just like all of these other groups do you attack treatment you don't attack use the only way you can attack use if they have a vegan message and you said it before well I copied it down Wayne I hope it's an accurate quote you said I do not agree that veganism is the moral baseline action is the moral baseline Wayne I'm sorry that is absolutely incoherent you need to have a theory to inform your action this idea that we don't have to go vegan that veganism is an impediment to the animal movement but we need action what are you talking about that is incoherent Jerry I don't think anyone who's currently involved in THC thinks veganism is an impediment to the animal rights movement I know there's some blog posts written by another organizer and we do allow a lot of diversity of opinion within DXE but all of us agree that veganism is a necessary condition to achieving animal liberation but our perspective is just that we have to go beyond that and again Gary I let's start can we start with the dog right in front of you do you think inaction is enough or do you think we have to go something to something beyond that and if we do want to go to something beyond there why not ask people for what we should be asking them for action for animals instead of just their own personal lives right away wait why do we need investigation what do we need to discover they're killing the animals whether they're doing it nicely or whether they're doing it not nicely they're killing the animals for an investigation for except for fundraising white did fundraise not that investigation a single dog but Gary do you believe that your main base Wayne Wayne Wayne wait you're on radio now you're telling me you're telling me that you've got no no donations for your activist stipend as these not put out a single solicitation for funds after that investigation not a single one our 2014 budget was four thousand dollars which is ten thousand dollars ten thousand times less than it is a hundred thousand times less distressed it's really an astonishing conversation we had here it seems that Wayne you have confirmed your support for Bruce Friedrich and the the groups with whom he is associated what's what's astonishing to me is how you how you support him when you know I mean you're probably rescuing chickens from the conditions he's created with support his support Farm Sanctuary support all these group support for the egg products Inspection Act and enrich cages are now the humane standards so go rescue chickens from the conditions created by bruce friedrich wayne says first if our goal is network building it's absolutely vital to emphasize that our model of activism building a movement for non-violent direct action complements many of the strategies taken by other groups if we are successful as i fully expect we will be our activism will make the lobbying outreach and education that bruce friedrich does exponentially more effective wayne as i've been trying to say for years these groups are the meat industry they are butchers i don't know how you don't see that and i don't see why why you're not protesting against bruce for the conditions he created from which you have to rescue chickens nonviolent direct action is a strong is it more important to be an activist or a vegan if you had your choice and if we are confident that we can win the debate our main objective is activist and as a movement has to be to bring attention to this issue and with over 200 press articles about our campaigns and investigations over the past year we have brought a massive amount of attention to this issue and we're winning that argument your branding Wayne and I I agree you're doing a good job of branding I'm looking at your website where you talk about your groundbreaking investigations and there's our big fat red donate button so please do not say that you are not fundraising off of your investigations it's on your page point number one point number two the idea that you know the this idea that we can be activists but we don't have to be vegan is content list nonsense it is content list nonsense did anyone say that Gary I'm sorry did anyone say that what that we can be active effective activists about being vegan I don't think anyone said like you I think Wayne what we said is that to be an effective at Wayne Wayne you see I'm trying to have a discussion Wayne I don't want to hear your speeches I'd like to have a discussion with you sure and I'm trying to have a discussion and I have to I have to I can't engage you I have to wait until you get done so please let me if we're gonna do it that way let me get done what you said was I do not believe that veganism is the moral baseline action is the moral baseline that's what you said that's a quote do you deny saying that because you did so you tell me how that makes sense to you because I think that is content with nonsense [Music] evolution