Friends, strangers, activists (w. Conradical Vegan)
12 July 2016 [link youtube]
The dorky sound effects that pop up from time to time basically exist to remind you that this is an edited podcast: the conversation lasted more than an hour, and it has been trimmed down.
Youtube Automatic Transcription
you know you've said this thing and
you've seriously challenged my perspectives as well as many others on pets as well as other things of the idiocy that veganism can come to like the fact of like I I was imagining in my mind that veganism is this utopia where everything's perfect we're not insects are harmed and everything's wonderful but an ideology can become idiocy very quickly and you have really put out content that seriously humbled me as a vegan in that I am extremely um happy to have come across your channel on your content hey guys what's up this is a somewhat unusual disclaimer at the start of an edited podcast in addition to the videos that I upload to YouTube you may or may not know that I also record podcasts and upload them to patreon the vast majority of my podcasts are exclusive their patreon only so people who pay one dollar per month get to hear them some of my podcast I record alone I recorded several actually while I was in airports because I've been traveling around the world lately and some of them are record like this one in conversation with other people this conversation is unusual in a number of ways first and foremost although i do encourage criticism contrary with some you may think and i do enjoy responding to criticism i only like responding to criticism that meets a certain standard that rises to a certain caliber or a level i do not think anyone on the internet should let their website or youtube channel come to be dominated by responses to the most vocal ten percent of people on the internet nor to the stupidest ten percent of people on the internet and very often it's the most vocal and most stupid ten percent of people who dominate public discussion forums right so i try to respond to the most intelligent ten percent or fifty percent of my audience and what they sent to me and i do i get intelligent highly intelligent email and comments all the time that I'd love to record videos in response to so you know remember one of the reasons why don't respond to what I consider garbage content is because there's better quality content out there for me to respond to just the other day I uploaded a video very substantive talking about wildlife management habitat conservation and the implications of these concepts for for vegan activism for vegan political philosophy so that to me is the type of really substantive content I want to respond to and I want to expand on and off my own thoughts on and I'm not really interested in responding to he [ __ ] he said she said drama etc although i do get dragged into it and this podcast you're about here not only contains the heat he said she said type of drama you know as nonsense between myself and vague an that i hope nobody's going to remember five years from now because it's it's meaningless and it's petty and it's crude but also i respond to you're gonna hear it just in the first few minutes as this is edited you're going to hear references to people who believe and propound really crazy conspiracy theories about me some of you may not realize this at all but there are channels in the internet there are people on the internet who claim that i'm secretly working for the CIA who claim that i'm secretly working for the meat industry who claim that i am trying to destroy veganism from within and they're not joking whether it's out of stupidity or malice those are their real thoughts their real opinions so again if this may sound too you ridiculous because i don't want to spawn to the most vocal and most stupid ten percent of people in internet but no to me will be ridiculous for my channel to be bogged down with me coming on camera and responding to people making those accusations that i'm secretly working for the CIA that i'm secretly working for monsanto that i'm trying to destroy veganism so that's the for the first time ever my youtube channel that is mentioned here because Conrad has emotional attachments to some of those people he knows some of them as human beings you know person to person or face to face we want to say who actually say those things about me so when i'm saying the Conrad it may sound absolutely I say to him look karma you're a smart guy how is it that you can take the lies these people say about me and treat them as credible when you know they're not credible sources information if you don't know that context you know you might think i'm talking about trivialities but no the a lot of these are really kind of ridiculous over-the-top conspiracy theories and people who very actively defend me or just just invent stories about me infant fiction of me so when I asked at one point asked look even if some of these lies are harmless if we don't challenge them when is it going to stop right how is going to stop if if this so-called movement this nascent Nathan social movement of veganism is really burdened with this this kind of accusation and counter-accusations it's got a myth making then obviously I'm not just concerned for my own situation within the movement I'm concerned for whether or not the movement have a future at all okay so that is a significant disclaimer for many of you this is simply a podcast you should not listen to many of you come here from my most substantive content now this conversation I think actually does have some very substantive content scattered within it I think we do genuinely talk about some philosophical and political issues within veganism that are a real interest including the question of how to really organize activism and one of the late motifs one of the themes that comes up again and again is the nature of friendship itself and the difference between simply trying to make friends on the internet and the pursuit of Fame on the internet and the difference to try to make friends people who are really your friends people you can trust and other ideas of organization other ideas of trying to I don't know instigate a political activism or or try to inspire people to get involved with building a community with them with organizing your political activism so that contrast and questions surrounding the nature of friendship and then how it is that indeed on the internet sometimes privately sometimes publicly I end up saying that people are not my friends recently a couple people were I had private conversations they took the step to make that into a public conflagration and whatever I mean I gotta deal with consequences um but as you guys know in the one hand I do not have my heart broken and the other hand I think it's worth it whether you end up with 5 10 or 50 real friends real people you can trust that is something tremendously precious that's a real reward you get from doing digital activism and you know I'm not going to lie to you when i left cambodia by contrast I really had nobody and I had nothing and I thought I'm not doing this again I'm not going to move to another country start a new home you know start a new life from a blank sheet of paper and then leave with nothing for me one of the most fundamental reasons to try to make to create contacts but to have colleagues over the Internet is because I want to have people I can work with people I can cooperate with in pursuit of social change in this case veganism ecology animal rights etc I want to have those colleagues travel with me and they do the friends I've made now on the internet still know me even though I just relocated from Canada to China and basically the friends I had in Canada the face of whether they're gone the same way that when I left Cambodia I lost the front sight of Cambodia when I when I left China on previous trips when i left laos in general i lost the the friends I've made with my feet on the ground so for me indeed a signet I reiterated again again what I'm really doing here on YouTube is not activism even though it is often about activism we often talk about activism though we're doing here on camera is not activism but a significant part of what I'm doing really is making friends alright that's enough of a preamble a tittle of it here you go my conversation with Conrad achill vegan coming back to this this question of dividing the community for you as a gay man i'm sorry i'm presuming you're you're gay man what if so what if someone said you you know what this gay rights thing there's no point doing what we're doing we need to work within the Catholic Church to make the Catholic Church pro-gay rights you would have to make a decision maybe maybe you think that's great idea but for me if I were gay i'm not but i can get zip ties okay look either i'm going to spend the next 10 years of my life working inside an organization that openly hates me or I say [ __ ] that i'm going to join some other religion or some other or just not just leave the catholic church should have nothing point is here with veganism it's not dividing the community each of us there were a lot of kind of crappy vegan organizations or crappy ecologic organizations where we have to make that decision a case-by-case basis do I want to spend the next five years of my life inside People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals some people do some people are happy with that do you all want to spend the next five years my life inside an organization that eats meat that's like a you know nature conservation group but there may be they are pro hunting and even within veganism so like direct action everywhere I think it's kind of lame individually we have to make a decision do I think this is [ __ ] to the point where I want to leave like the Catholic Church or do I want to work inside or what so to me that's not dividing the community that's being honest about like hey life is complicated [ __ ] up we're making these kinds of decisions and lights isn't life is long but it's not that long I don't have ten years to [ __ ] around with the Catholic Church and Venice yen as this thing with durianrider happened he quickly took durianrider side and then would say that you single-handedly are working to destroy the vegan movement and I'm like what the [ __ ] is going on if I was in your shoes if I was in your shoes and I was threatened and I had a swarm of YouTube people that are making video saying that I'm like the evil of the YouTube community and that I need to be dealt with I would try to police every channel that talk negative about me trying to find who is on my side and who wasn't that's what I would do because I would be concerned for my safety and the safety of my family I'm at his chin you know you've said this thing and you've seriously challenged my perspectives as well as many others on pets as well as other things of the idiocy that veganism can come to like the fact of like I I was imagining in my mind that veganism is this utopia where everything's perfect we're not insects are harmed and everything's wonderful but an ideology can become idiocy very quickly and you have really put out content that seriously humbled me as a vegan in that I am extremely happy to have come across your channel on your content the thing that I have experienced is when you were talking about pet ownership in the double-edged sword that it presents with him vegan so I saw one of your written comments on that right yeah yeah motional attachment and you were absolutely right in this but when we talk about solutions it's a very gray area because we're kind of damned if we do and damned if we don't and I think that vegan for good he took it under your assumption that we should just send them out into the wild yeah and some of these symbols have been you Jenna sized to not be able to survive in the wild yeah so what it's a very difficult situation well he look I mean you know this isn't really about the pet ownership issue but you're correct that many people including him hate me because the pet ownership issue but he he had no real interest in understanding what my argument was and this this happens in politics all the time like when you look at the Republican Party versus the Democrat Party he was very intentionally misunderstanding what I had to say and portraying what I had to say in an extreme way and in at least one video lying about what I had to say and again his emotions are involved and I don't you know I'm not angry about it but that is what goes on so you know again the mainstream politics you see that all the time where you know the Republican Party pretends to misunderstand the Democrat party's proposal on health care and the actual proposal is incredibly boring but they make it thick you know traumatic I'm happy to have any of these kind of substantive discussions but I mean obviously it's frustrating when people are kind of just making things up that are not true and like already there you had kind of two examples so one is somebody saying that I support like all of these animals just living in the streets like animals are currently pets becoming uh uh feral or living in alleyways and now I've actually made videos that do say explicitly no that's not what I believe and I posted written conference saying no CF what I actually believe etcetera so that's one kind of misrepresentation and you know maybe it's inevitable but the other is then so I mean again so you know some of these sources are not credible if a guy like vegan for good is willing to lie about what happened in Chiang Mai and makeup kind of crazy conspiracy theories but how I'm trying to destroy the vegan community and he's not the only one vegan revolution probably goes the furthest we're vegan evolution like actually thinks I'm working for the CIA and he's actually claimed that like I never lived in Laos you know I can pass that lived in Laos and Cambodia I complained but my channel you know like where people are really into the conspiracy mindset so my question is a turnaround took I'll you like my impression is you're a smart guy is based on your youtube videos like you've said intelligent things interesting things but I don't know you but it's like I look at a guy like you and you're taking information from channels like that that you know or not trust her that you know they're not reliable you know they have real malice toward me so even if he's honest about other things in his life this is somebody who comes the internet and tells lies about me because he openly hates me and I've heard him say on camera like I remember he said once I was gonna say something positive about about Lucy also to balance it and he said but I just had to admit to myself like I hate this guy and I can't do it you know he was so emotional that he couldn't he couldn't do more would you get like it's keeping it real I don't resent it it's I'm a man like you're that you're that deep from the game but look again so it's like so I don't I just don't see how someone like you can put together piece of information from channels like that and then make your own video like repeating that stuff as if it's true it's like you know so I know like the email I said she was not that polite but it's like look this stuff you're saying I think I say it's it's not true and it's also not well informed you're treating people as credible sources that are overtly not credible so that that was what I had to say to you that was really the core of it my point is like that kind of thing where it's really false that's where like I feel like you know I wish you delete the video or record a new video or post this conversation sighs just like what you know where does it stop if we really are inventing you know myths and fables like this then within veganism the internet now I mean it even then like I recognize this particular lie is not really dangerous but you know I just say where where does it stop I such a small and all I've never experienced any threats against me or any so this is a pita Mike isn't worse you seriously got a ton death Betsy and I can imagine there's a tendency that when you get threatened to be able to just think that everyone is out to get you I'm not like that I'm talking but comrade I'm talking you know you made a video which I have every right to be offended by I mean I know I know you didn't mean it badly but you say [ __ ] about my divorce and my wife and say [ __ ] about my relationship with an which is just not true again you don't know like you don't know anything of the situation the Anam which again I'm not mad at you but I could be you know but the point is i still have an open heart now might I still reach out to the vegans I still cooperate with them even though durianrider threatened to beat me up etc so me know that that's part of it but look look the point is look at the first thing I said was some of these allegations the nature of them is not credible even when you only hear one side of the story I think the main the main example I used as she Tobias lien art who's not that famous but he's another vegan on YouTube just mention but it's a like when I criticize Tobias leaner there's also true when I criticize freely or many other examples I actually summarize what he's saying accurately I don't lie about his arguments and then criticize the lies I've told you I obviously I do think there's a difference between criticism and defamation I supported his argument if not releasing pets into the wild if they're not able to survive like I supported that perspective however as this thing with durianrider happened he quickly took during writers side and then would say that you single-handedly are working to destroy the vegan movement and I'm like what the [ __ ] is going on here's this person that I liked so much and they're saying [ __ ] like this and I'm like I'm see people respond to videos like the white pride did response videos to people they're saying oh we should do it in a different way like conspiring and prodding I'm like what the [ __ ] is going on you you amongst many others have presented a critique to veganism to kind of hold us accountable you know personally at this point with all this drama that's going on on youtube I don't think that it's vegans that are going to make the world grow I think it's it's a non vegans because you know we're seeing rights for elephants happen or rights for orcas that's not just being done by vegans those are being done by the general public that's right one species more than another we see suffrage happened in different ripen alishan gay rights happen in a different time certain classes are going to receive rights at different rates than others so I think veganism is going to be this wave of cascades have escalated some animals rights over others for a while right look I'll so anyway that's obviously an interesting points you made although it's not not the central to the discussion right now but yeah that that is a very interesting point and at the issue for instance one of your biggest followers especially someone that has a lot of followers now who vegan cheetah prints example I wanted to know what his perspective of the difference between your philosophy and his perspective and the old thing he said is different between you and him is that you want community and he doesn't give a [ __ ] about it and you know that and even the light twins like they they did a really wonderful talk with you and they're like oh eyes are like won't you like work and like make it a community where we can all interact with one another I think that we we have this longing to have this open form of communication to be able to talk about our societal differences but I think that that you have a lot of expectations on you from people like the light winds and vegan cheetah and even I have kind of been like oh I feel so smart like he he'll be able to do all these things mama and it's an effort on all of us to be able to do this and the thing is like if I was in your shoes if I was in your shoes and I was threatened and I had a swarm of YouTube people that are making video saying that I'm like the evil of the YouTube community and that I need to be dealt with I would try to police every channel the top- about me trying to find who is on my side and who wasn't that's what I would do because I would be concerned for my safety and the safety of my family during writer created this environment where any one that talked about cook food or anything else wasn't included and it became a cesspool of poison and became a fascist network I do not want something like this to happen again absolute so look the first to the first day was that that's really intelligent and I'd encourage you to make a video talking about or reflecting on those those things you just said I think that's better got up but like the second thing I'd say is sympathy can be misleading what you said is sympathetic you said this is the core sympathy said if I were in your position this is how I would feel this is what I do like I am a very unusual guy these people docs to be these people insulted my mom you know these pills every my mom into it some of them bring my daughter and my ex-wife into it accused me being a wife beater and the weird thing is I really am the one person two million who is not upset by that and the other people like other people have written me other people who durianrider denounced in the past they wrote to me talk to me about how they went into a clinical depression they just their whole life collapsed and you know they they couldn't stand up from selves or fight back because they were just so emotionally crushed I don't know Johanna Chloe I talked to her at the beginning of her thing with during writer and now she doesn't talk to anybody she may or may not have mean she publicly just says she's not talking anyone cuz she's so upset I assume that's true but you know it's easy to imagine either so that that she's just so upset or depressed so there are people collapse the weird thing is and I have reflected a little bit about this on my channel I am actually the one person who's not like that when I was saying the durianrider that I didn't care if I went to thai prison like for a couple of months ago I actually don't care when I said like I actually don't care if I live or die I actually am at that point I totally understand that but you have to admit that because they're dragging your family into it it becomes even more personal because it's not about your safety but it's about there's the thing is like during orders even making anti-semitic remarks on videos that they think is your mom it's it's cascading into a [ __ ] mess and I'm just like I think that YouTube is an animal that is one ounce ounce of narcissism because we exalt ourselves on our channel and we get all the kudos or whatnot and then veganism we have this this this moral superiority that somehow we're more morally here because we care about the animals and no one [ __ ] doesn't like so it's I think it's a mess because of both of those couple together that's just a theory you know beyond that the other side of me which is maybe unusual I often say to my friends you know that I'm a very kind of Bronze Age person I really believe in honor and dignity like you've heard me use words aunt like honor and dignity on my youtube channel which most people use don't use and so like when you look at the situation with me and vague and this is typical I say this is typical of me as a character in the way I am with all my friends it's like look and you and I had an agreement like we like we did we talked for more than an hour on on skype we talked about exactly the [ __ ] she did we talked about like it because in the past prior to that skype conversation she had been on channels like Joe best and others like approving of videos that denounced me like some of the whole video the video is titled like izel Mozart is a [ __ ] oh I then like she had the comment like wow interesting I really liked your perspective or some [ __ ] like you know just approving the video and like you know obviously I can laugh about it but it's like an like what i'm doing here is making real friends in real life like this is about actual friendship and actual trust and i'm not like many other people youtube is sort of about fame or but like a celebrity type relationship something but like my relationships these people including including like vegan gains vegan gains very famous but including vegan cheetah you can see when i was on is you now I talked to vegan cheetah the way I talked to a friend I know in real life like period and i just mentioned like i have a podcast then we recorded right after his mom died where we talked about the death and then you're the only one that stuck by him made that video it's just like so he goes to rehab he loses his [ __ ] mom and no one gives [ __ ] and then right when he comes out right when it comes out of rehab he loses a hair product and that was just out animals you're not even [ __ ] vegan vegan cheetah and then right after that then comes out the gary ross is an [ __ ] and all these like just holding all these other vegan youtubers accountable which is something that needed to be done for a while because we need that that growth to grow look my point is actually not that i'm a nice guy as always i'm not arguing that i'm a nice guy because I have the relation with cheetah my point was to say like with people like an and also ally tabrizi a lot of people freaked out that I dared to criticize le Tabrizi it's not even a criticism like I haven't criticized I degrees I've said Ali tabrizi was my friend to me that was a human personal friendship and it's over now and I'm sad about that like that that's like I just say that's not really a criticism it's not like hey I disagree with your view one on vivisection pet ownership it's not intellectual it's not political it's not it's just hey you know what this guy was my friend and he did the wrong thing when it mattered and now I think we're never gonna speak again and that's sad for me right now like vagin was never my close friend but we did we had this hour-long Skype conversation but at the same time you're going to someone's channel like Joe best we can just stick with your best as one example but it's not them you're going to channels that hate me and really tell lies about me and like we were just talking about like with vegan for good channels that are not credible that are really making up lies and you're agreeing with them at the same time that to my face you're telling me something else so again that to me in terms of friendship it's not political I would have never made a public issue of it in terms of friendship what I have to say to her as we're done I never want to talk to you and that was not on my youtube channel that was not in my patron that was not even on my facebook I made no public statement about that I said to an privately and again in this case it's not out of the blue on the in the Skype conversation we talked about exactly this issue about exactly her going these channels and approving me and a couple of other issues where was like look and like if you don't understand the friction between us this is the friction it's just the end of a personal friendship for me and now you see what she did she turns around first opportunity she's being a fan more about it and she's approaching me saying oh well why couldn't we have just talked about the problem I could say that's you and you never talked to me about the problem you did all this [ __ ] publicly at every stage so you know I was trying on the video to say hey I know you're going through a lot I support you with the [ __ ] [ __ ] a during right or did I [ __ ] put my neck out on the line locally from a [ __ ] gang Posse here locally say no I don't agree assaulting someone's ok yeah we used to be friends but I don't agree with that I took a stand like look I totally understand I chose you and that's why that's the sense in which you're different from Joe best but the sense of what you're the same as Joe best is in that video you're repeating things other people said about me that are actually not true and you don't realize that but that's why I'm writing to you and saying you look like like you know just just to stay with same example like to say that I tried to shut down somebody else's channel to say that I'm censoring people I totally understand why you're saying that because other people have said it but that's like Joe best he made videos about me that from a legal perspective did defame me because Joe best basically heard things that durianrider said and a couple of other people close to Jerry minor and she treated those things as true and then he came on camera and he he basically repeated those things and expanded on them and speculate about them so like Jabba again Joe best is not as bad as during writer but I had to write to your bestest a look Joe like and at one point during writer had already admitted those things were [ __ ] was like Joe this is defamation like you're actually saying like I contacted underage girls in Chiang Mai which is not true and never was true and even if like cojo like his style he acts as if it's reasonable oh well you know let's just think about it I mean you know like his style is not angry but it's like dude I don't care if you're calm or angry what you're saying about me is you know six like fifth right so that's all it says I think for you even you can get stuck in that trap where you're treating sources that are not credible it's credible you're not asking me and you could you can't get in touch with me and I think in your case you also weren't pausing to think well there must be another side to this story like even with the YouTube blocking the one video I didn't block 10 videos as one so obviously one video legally did something wrong so that's all I'm saying this stuff like that way you can put the pieces together I want to come back tonight city road sign you said earlier was also true you said people had expectations on me and people wanted me to build some kind of a community or network well however they imagine they measure different but like the contrast that is for me I am just trying to make real friends like no no community like it's that simple and I remember like James James for example he had like an epiphany about that one day like he had already known me for a couple of months and he said you know what today is the first day that I figured out that you're actually trying to be my friend and he said the reason that was so hard from to understand is that every other person he talked to on YouTube that was not what they were trying to do they were either trying to you know start a channel or do something related to fame or promotion or some kind of more political thing and like when I talked to Jake from day one Jake's much younger than I forgot he's 21 or something but it's like I just talked to him the same way I talk to someone I met in a cafe and then I get to know you better and I'm starting to look right and that's it where there's there's really nothing else going on I think you should probably address that your intention is to just find close friends that end up working with you that's how it is because the perception of vegan cheetah and light winds is that you're somehow like making this like this community that's going to just help to bring more diversity into the vegan movement yeah well look I mean it's possible like within my patreon I've got more than 200 members but really only 50 members are active because some people just pay you money and don't come around like they just support you they want to show that they support you it's only one dollar so he likes that big a deal but uh i mean if if that was what i was trying to do then I would be failing which is fine i mean you know i am interested in meeting as many like-minded people and people cooperate with as possible but something I talked about my channel a relatively long time ago you know I'm also really about like in real life I'm about real activism real project even though currently in China I can't do anything like that so you know the light twins are Canadian citizens they live like 3,000 kilometers away from where i live canada's a huge country like you know even vegan gains whatever like so yeah it is about real friendship it is about real cooperation is but real activism it's also about the long term and again I'm not trying to convince you that I'm a nice guy I said earlier like I'm a bit of a Bronze Age character like to me I look at someone like vague an so the one hand there's friendship on the other hand there's like okay this saving the planet thing is this someone i can actually cooperate with to do something in terms of politics activism ecology and in vegas case the answer is really know right like you know she's not going to be that person off with other people the ant the answer is yes and my sense of honor and dignity which may be [ __ ] and it certainly it's out of fashion in 2016 it's very medieval is like you know look man you know when it counts uh you know do you do you live up to this this notion i have a boat owner dig like someone else writing to be talked about loyalty i actually don't use the word loyalty I don't expect someone like an to be loyal to me I don't but you know if there's a conflict like this you know again if you actually believe the [ __ ] yo best is saying why didn't you ask me either personally or in patron when you have because again her saying she can't talk to me she had ways to talk to me it should get touch me in two seconds you know if any of these like like about the money thing this is not big hands as you but like other people if you actually think I've stolen the money why wouldn't you ask me instead of denouncing me in public like right when we have contact when you know me you know what I mean so to me those are more questions of you know honor and dignity and and what have you because again in many cases I think they don't believe it it's just famewhore activity it's just like hey if I make a video saying izel stole the money I can get an extra 200 views or 500 these are all small numbers right as opposed to actually talk to me reducing really sincere there is no good and evil like this this topic on YouTube is not some [ __ ] movie that's playing out in the cinema this is real life so when you're saying someone's evil and a single-handedly taking down the movement someone is not Darth Vader or some [ __ ] like evil like supreme figure in some movie [ __ ] this is real life [ __ ] and we this is more about the interaction between one another and that's why communication is essential so when when I'm seeing videos that like been taken down or I see that there's not a correspondence and there's a refusal to correspond it further creates this mystique and detachment from interaction and then people's minds go haywire and they start filling in the blanks of some crazy convoluted stories right look I mean I'd say so that's why he just comes into credible sources and now at this point vague and also is not a credible source she's just making [ __ ] up about me about how I'm a narcissist and whatever she's gone off the deep end and again like look there's a difference between people who disagree with me and people where I think they're stupid or otherwise or some was insane some people are not stupid but they're they're mentally unwell and I just never want to talk to them again I don't want to cooperate with them something I said the other day to somebody was look it doesn't matter like this weekend there could be a thousand people who want to talk to me on skype there could be a hundred people or there could be just ten people I still can't talk to all them I still have to say no to a bun even if it's only 10 people I'm gonna say no to seven you cook mean so like I'm not famous but maybe 2,000 people really liked me on the internet like 5000 people watch me 2000 people really care like I you know I made the time to talk to you there are a bunch of other people I'm saying no to and yes no no no no it's cool but like I just say like this is the reality is like so if people ask what's the dark psychological motive a Maya narcissism for saying look and [ __ ] it i'm not doing this again that's just a reality was I already did it with her once I think less than a month ago maybe it's maybe at six weeks but like not that long though it's like an I took the time we talked for more than an hour we we set ground rules we addressed all this [ __ ] from the past we thought we had a good basis it's like you don't get another two hours out of me I'm done like okay and Nelly just a couple weeks later it's the same [ __ ] and you're freaking out again like I'm sure an I could have gotten her on skype again and calmed her down and talked her through it me like look and here's what you need to understand but no and the and the truth is it may be a horrible thing to say the reason for my making that decision is that I think she's too stupid to be worth my time and yes maybe I'm a complete [ __ ] for saying that but I said it to her privately I didn't say to a single other human being not even one other human being that I say am was stupid too I said to her privately and I'm not doing this you again and you know I think you're too stupid to play this game that's also not saying you're completely stupid it's saying I'm thinking too stupid to play the games you are playing on youtube because she is she was playing games which is whatever so you know yes I again I'm not I'm never claimed to be a nice guy but the reality is meanwhile like emotionally there's one person who's gonna talk to me about on skype this weekend and she is a vegan youtuber who deleted her channel I don't nobody ever threatened to kill her nobody threatened to beat her up she did ahead but still the emotional YouTube really [ __ ] her up emotionally so that happened some people even Jake Eames he he shut down for a while you know he i think he's making videos again I've seen a lot of people get emotionally devastated by this stuff and it is kind of funny i'm in this tiny minority of people it even when they bring my mom into it even when they bring my daughter into it it doesn't impact people show the way but i am saying to people including an including and said this directly and including vegan for good i'm saying people I need you to have intellectual integrity because if I'm going to spend my time in the internet debating the stuff I want to debate things that have real substance like you like you and I think don't really disagree on any issues but if you really disagreed with me about the vivisection issue but it was an intelligent disagreement that's about the substance it's not accusing me of working for the CIA it's not accusing me of destroying the begin- inside it's not making up [ __ ] whatever I I think that's totally worthwhile I'd say great let's have this debate but the problem is so much of the stuff is this Fame [ __ ] or fame or behavior where I can't spend my time doing that vegan ideology as much as it can help to be a tool towards a better world that it doesn't have all the answers right and I think that a lot of people just want to think that veganism is just this like magic bullet it's like the Sorcerer's Stone like it you it's everything you can eat it like it'll cure every big coming back to this this question of dividing the community for you as a gay man i'm sorry i'm presuming you're gay man what if so what if someone said you you know what this gay rights thing well there's no point doing what we're doing we need to work within the Catholic Church to make the Catholic Church pro-gay rights you would have to make a decision maybe you think that's great idea but for me if I were gay i'm not but i can get zip ties okay look either i'm going to spend the next 10 years of my life working inside an organization that openly hates me or I say [ __ ] that I'm going to join some other religion or some other or just not just leave the Catholic Church should have nothing that's a decision you have to make and millions gay people three I have met gay people who are still Catholic you know it is what it is they something with the decision right right but my point is here with veganism it's not dividing the community each of us there were a lot of kind of crappy vegan organizations or crappy ecological organizations where we have to make that decision a case-by-case basis do I want to spend the next five years of my life inside People for the Ethical Treatment animals some people do some people are happy with that do you all want to spend the next five years my life inside an organization that eats meat that's like a you know nature conservation group but there may be they are pro hunting and even within veganism so direct action everywhere I think it's kind of lame I see it it's the summer I think it's kind of [ __ ] but you individually we have to make a decision do I think this is [ __ ] to the point where I want to leave like the Catholic Church or do I want to work inside it or what so to me that's not dividing the community that's being honest about like hey life is complicated [ __ ] up we're making these kinds of decisions and life isn't life is long but it's not that long I don't have ten years to [ __ ] around with the Catholic Church I don't think you do either but you know what I mean I what so that's the kind of that's the kind of thinking world doing I've been thinking about this too because when I grew up as a Christian they're saying well Christians can't go to bars they can't do this they can't see these specific movies and I was like so one we're avoiding ourselves from these experiences to be able to reach the public to be able to talk to them to we're avoiding ourselves from these environments to be able to have these conversations so it's the same of veganism like we have to integrate the complexity of the human experience and also we have to challenge our quote unquote morals of veganism and sometimes go to the zoo and challenge the zoo perspective to actually see it for what it is to mourn it to feel it and to see how people interact in those environments because when we exclude ourselves from those environments like my brother brought me to sea world hey like he drove dad and said oh we're going to seaworld and I'm like I don't want to go to sea world I'm vegan like what do I do I was only there for a day so I was like I'm guess i'll go into sea world it's against my ethics to spend time with my brother / suddenly have a day to spend with him and I just wheat at seeing these these orcas performing in these dolphins in this like bathtub but that was a really amazing experience because it it's set in stone Mon stance against sea world I was like no and I saw the propaganda they use so it was a good experience but it was it was a it was a horrifying experience I recently I was I went to the zoo in Thailand in Chiang Mai and I just went to the zoo again here in China and same route so I've talked about this I think mostly within my patreon actually not on not on youtube in patreon I did podcast all Yuma than that question of you know would you yourself go to a zoo as a vegan for me the answer is yes for these kinds are basically for activists reasons basically to be to have an informed perspective but also like would you take your own child to the zoo and what's that like as a vegan whenever you and I got responses from other vegans who said yes I do take my son or daughter to the zoo and we do talk about it and like as a vegan in some ways I think you're on better ground than the other people do because you can say to your son or daughter everyone else here kills cows and pigs on a daily basis for no reason and we don't you know what I mean like we're like we're special nonsense we care enough that we don't do that and you know these animals even though some of them are suffering the to like some of those animals are just obviously miserable they're the best treated animals in the world which it's like it's surreal but like I was just at a zoo in China and I can look at those monkeys the monkeys in the cage and it's it's pretty miserable for them they're the best treated monkey they're the best best treated animals in the nation of China compared to the pigs the cows compared to so many compared to house I was Pat's compared to dogs these this is the pampered elite and it's still terrible it's still morally you know as a vegan you still react to it this way as a huge morale problem so yeah anyway obviously there's so much there's so much we agree about Conrad and this this has been a great conversation I love pink all right i'm not sure if you've seen them in your time in china or Thailand yeah I actually have a video a video specifically mentioning pengkalan maybe the horror of that begonia what are the most near and dear creatures to my heart but every time they go to Thailand it's the most traffic zone for pangolin in the world and not one route so forth [ __ ] has talked about this it's like when they're in vacation in Thailand they like are oblivious to any animal exploitation at all and it's like these creatures are kinda conceited and I love them and it's like well I'm the one exception I have a video i have a video of a Pangolin i have a video describing how i saw pangolin being killed and butchered by the side of the road in Laos in the jungle so hiccup I want my points Conrad I'm the one guy vanished en
you've seriously challenged my perspectives as well as many others on pets as well as other things of the idiocy that veganism can come to like the fact of like I I was imagining in my mind that veganism is this utopia where everything's perfect we're not insects are harmed and everything's wonderful but an ideology can become idiocy very quickly and you have really put out content that seriously humbled me as a vegan in that I am extremely um happy to have come across your channel on your content hey guys what's up this is a somewhat unusual disclaimer at the start of an edited podcast in addition to the videos that I upload to YouTube you may or may not know that I also record podcasts and upload them to patreon the vast majority of my podcasts are exclusive their patreon only so people who pay one dollar per month get to hear them some of my podcast I record alone I recorded several actually while I was in airports because I've been traveling around the world lately and some of them are record like this one in conversation with other people this conversation is unusual in a number of ways first and foremost although i do encourage criticism contrary with some you may think and i do enjoy responding to criticism i only like responding to criticism that meets a certain standard that rises to a certain caliber or a level i do not think anyone on the internet should let their website or youtube channel come to be dominated by responses to the most vocal ten percent of people on the internet nor to the stupidest ten percent of people on the internet and very often it's the most vocal and most stupid ten percent of people who dominate public discussion forums right so i try to respond to the most intelligent ten percent or fifty percent of my audience and what they sent to me and i do i get intelligent highly intelligent email and comments all the time that I'd love to record videos in response to so you know remember one of the reasons why don't respond to what I consider garbage content is because there's better quality content out there for me to respond to just the other day I uploaded a video very substantive talking about wildlife management habitat conservation and the implications of these concepts for for vegan activism for vegan political philosophy so that to me is the type of really substantive content I want to respond to and I want to expand on and off my own thoughts on and I'm not really interested in responding to he [ __ ] he said she said drama etc although i do get dragged into it and this podcast you're about here not only contains the heat he said she said type of drama you know as nonsense between myself and vague an that i hope nobody's going to remember five years from now because it's it's meaningless and it's petty and it's crude but also i respond to you're gonna hear it just in the first few minutes as this is edited you're going to hear references to people who believe and propound really crazy conspiracy theories about me some of you may not realize this at all but there are channels in the internet there are people on the internet who claim that i'm secretly working for the CIA who claim that i'm secretly working for the meat industry who claim that i am trying to destroy veganism from within and they're not joking whether it's out of stupidity or malice those are their real thoughts their real opinions so again if this may sound too you ridiculous because i don't want to spawn to the most vocal and most stupid ten percent of people in internet but no to me will be ridiculous for my channel to be bogged down with me coming on camera and responding to people making those accusations that i'm secretly working for the CIA that i'm secretly working for monsanto that i'm trying to destroy veganism so that's the for the first time ever my youtube channel that is mentioned here because Conrad has emotional attachments to some of those people he knows some of them as human beings you know person to person or face to face we want to say who actually say those things about me so when i'm saying the Conrad it may sound absolutely I say to him look karma you're a smart guy how is it that you can take the lies these people say about me and treat them as credible when you know they're not credible sources information if you don't know that context you know you might think i'm talking about trivialities but no the a lot of these are really kind of ridiculous over-the-top conspiracy theories and people who very actively defend me or just just invent stories about me infant fiction of me so when I asked at one point asked look even if some of these lies are harmless if we don't challenge them when is it going to stop right how is going to stop if if this so-called movement this nascent Nathan social movement of veganism is really burdened with this this kind of accusation and counter-accusations it's got a myth making then obviously I'm not just concerned for my own situation within the movement I'm concerned for whether or not the movement have a future at all okay so that is a significant disclaimer for many of you this is simply a podcast you should not listen to many of you come here from my most substantive content now this conversation I think actually does have some very substantive content scattered within it I think we do genuinely talk about some philosophical and political issues within veganism that are a real interest including the question of how to really organize activism and one of the late motifs one of the themes that comes up again and again is the nature of friendship itself and the difference between simply trying to make friends on the internet and the pursuit of Fame on the internet and the difference to try to make friends people who are really your friends people you can trust and other ideas of organization other ideas of trying to I don't know instigate a political activism or or try to inspire people to get involved with building a community with them with organizing your political activism so that contrast and questions surrounding the nature of friendship and then how it is that indeed on the internet sometimes privately sometimes publicly I end up saying that people are not my friends recently a couple people were I had private conversations they took the step to make that into a public conflagration and whatever I mean I gotta deal with consequences um but as you guys know in the one hand I do not have my heart broken and the other hand I think it's worth it whether you end up with 5 10 or 50 real friends real people you can trust that is something tremendously precious that's a real reward you get from doing digital activism and you know I'm not going to lie to you when i left cambodia by contrast I really had nobody and I had nothing and I thought I'm not doing this again I'm not going to move to another country start a new home you know start a new life from a blank sheet of paper and then leave with nothing for me one of the most fundamental reasons to try to make to create contacts but to have colleagues over the Internet is because I want to have people I can work with people I can cooperate with in pursuit of social change in this case veganism ecology animal rights etc I want to have those colleagues travel with me and they do the friends I've made now on the internet still know me even though I just relocated from Canada to China and basically the friends I had in Canada the face of whether they're gone the same way that when I left Cambodia I lost the front sight of Cambodia when I when I left China on previous trips when i left laos in general i lost the the friends I've made with my feet on the ground so for me indeed a signet I reiterated again again what I'm really doing here on YouTube is not activism even though it is often about activism we often talk about activism though we're doing here on camera is not activism but a significant part of what I'm doing really is making friends alright that's enough of a preamble a tittle of it here you go my conversation with Conrad achill vegan coming back to this this question of dividing the community for you as a gay man i'm sorry i'm presuming you're you're gay man what if so what if someone said you you know what this gay rights thing there's no point doing what we're doing we need to work within the Catholic Church to make the Catholic Church pro-gay rights you would have to make a decision maybe maybe you think that's great idea but for me if I were gay i'm not but i can get zip ties okay look either i'm going to spend the next 10 years of my life working inside an organization that openly hates me or I say [ __ ] that i'm going to join some other religion or some other or just not just leave the catholic church should have nothing point is here with veganism it's not dividing the community each of us there were a lot of kind of crappy vegan organizations or crappy ecologic organizations where we have to make that decision a case-by-case basis do I want to spend the next five years of my life inside People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals some people do some people are happy with that do you all want to spend the next five years my life inside an organization that eats meat that's like a you know nature conservation group but there may be they are pro hunting and even within veganism so like direct action everywhere I think it's kind of lame individually we have to make a decision do I think this is [ __ ] to the point where I want to leave like the Catholic Church or do I want to work inside or what so to me that's not dividing the community that's being honest about like hey life is complicated [ __ ] up we're making these kinds of decisions and lights isn't life is long but it's not that long I don't have ten years to [ __ ] around with the Catholic Church and Venice yen as this thing with durianrider happened he quickly took durianrider side and then would say that you single-handedly are working to destroy the vegan movement and I'm like what the [ __ ] is going on if I was in your shoes if I was in your shoes and I was threatened and I had a swarm of YouTube people that are making video saying that I'm like the evil of the YouTube community and that I need to be dealt with I would try to police every channel that talk negative about me trying to find who is on my side and who wasn't that's what I would do because I would be concerned for my safety and the safety of my family I'm at his chin you know you've said this thing and you've seriously challenged my perspectives as well as many others on pets as well as other things of the idiocy that veganism can come to like the fact of like I I was imagining in my mind that veganism is this utopia where everything's perfect we're not insects are harmed and everything's wonderful but an ideology can become idiocy very quickly and you have really put out content that seriously humbled me as a vegan in that I am extremely happy to have come across your channel on your content the thing that I have experienced is when you were talking about pet ownership in the double-edged sword that it presents with him vegan so I saw one of your written comments on that right yeah yeah motional attachment and you were absolutely right in this but when we talk about solutions it's a very gray area because we're kind of damned if we do and damned if we don't and I think that vegan for good he took it under your assumption that we should just send them out into the wild yeah and some of these symbols have been you Jenna sized to not be able to survive in the wild yeah so what it's a very difficult situation well he look I mean you know this isn't really about the pet ownership issue but you're correct that many people including him hate me because the pet ownership issue but he he had no real interest in understanding what my argument was and this this happens in politics all the time like when you look at the Republican Party versus the Democrat Party he was very intentionally misunderstanding what I had to say and portraying what I had to say in an extreme way and in at least one video lying about what I had to say and again his emotions are involved and I don't you know I'm not angry about it but that is what goes on so you know again the mainstream politics you see that all the time where you know the Republican Party pretends to misunderstand the Democrat party's proposal on health care and the actual proposal is incredibly boring but they make it thick you know traumatic I'm happy to have any of these kind of substantive discussions but I mean obviously it's frustrating when people are kind of just making things up that are not true and like already there you had kind of two examples so one is somebody saying that I support like all of these animals just living in the streets like animals are currently pets becoming uh uh feral or living in alleyways and now I've actually made videos that do say explicitly no that's not what I believe and I posted written conference saying no CF what I actually believe etcetera so that's one kind of misrepresentation and you know maybe it's inevitable but the other is then so I mean again so you know some of these sources are not credible if a guy like vegan for good is willing to lie about what happened in Chiang Mai and makeup kind of crazy conspiracy theories but how I'm trying to destroy the vegan community and he's not the only one vegan revolution probably goes the furthest we're vegan evolution like actually thinks I'm working for the CIA and he's actually claimed that like I never lived in Laos you know I can pass that lived in Laos and Cambodia I complained but my channel you know like where people are really into the conspiracy mindset so my question is a turnaround took I'll you like my impression is you're a smart guy is based on your youtube videos like you've said intelligent things interesting things but I don't know you but it's like I look at a guy like you and you're taking information from channels like that that you know or not trust her that you know they're not reliable you know they have real malice toward me so even if he's honest about other things in his life this is somebody who comes the internet and tells lies about me because he openly hates me and I've heard him say on camera like I remember he said once I was gonna say something positive about about Lucy also to balance it and he said but I just had to admit to myself like I hate this guy and I can't do it you know he was so emotional that he couldn't he couldn't do more would you get like it's keeping it real I don't resent it it's I'm a man like you're that you're that deep from the game but look again so it's like so I don't I just don't see how someone like you can put together piece of information from channels like that and then make your own video like repeating that stuff as if it's true it's like you know so I know like the email I said she was not that polite but it's like look this stuff you're saying I think I say it's it's not true and it's also not well informed you're treating people as credible sources that are overtly not credible so that that was what I had to say to you that was really the core of it my point is like that kind of thing where it's really false that's where like I feel like you know I wish you delete the video or record a new video or post this conversation sighs just like what you know where does it stop if we really are inventing you know myths and fables like this then within veganism the internet now I mean it even then like I recognize this particular lie is not really dangerous but you know I just say where where does it stop I such a small and all I've never experienced any threats against me or any so this is a pita Mike isn't worse you seriously got a ton death Betsy and I can imagine there's a tendency that when you get threatened to be able to just think that everyone is out to get you I'm not like that I'm talking but comrade I'm talking you know you made a video which I have every right to be offended by I mean I know I know you didn't mean it badly but you say [ __ ] about my divorce and my wife and say [ __ ] about my relationship with an which is just not true again you don't know like you don't know anything of the situation the Anam which again I'm not mad at you but I could be you know but the point is i still have an open heart now might I still reach out to the vegans I still cooperate with them even though durianrider threatened to beat me up etc so me know that that's part of it but look look the point is look at the first thing I said was some of these allegations the nature of them is not credible even when you only hear one side of the story I think the main the main example I used as she Tobias lien art who's not that famous but he's another vegan on YouTube just mention but it's a like when I criticize Tobias leaner there's also true when I criticize freely or many other examples I actually summarize what he's saying accurately I don't lie about his arguments and then criticize the lies I've told you I obviously I do think there's a difference between criticism and defamation I supported his argument if not releasing pets into the wild if they're not able to survive like I supported that perspective however as this thing with durianrider happened he quickly took during writers side and then would say that you single-handedly are working to destroy the vegan movement and I'm like what the [ __ ] is going on here's this person that I liked so much and they're saying [ __ ] like this and I'm like I'm see people respond to videos like the white pride did response videos to people they're saying oh we should do it in a different way like conspiring and prodding I'm like what the [ __ ] is going on you you amongst many others have presented a critique to veganism to kind of hold us accountable you know personally at this point with all this drama that's going on on youtube I don't think that it's vegans that are going to make the world grow I think it's it's a non vegans because you know we're seeing rights for elephants happen or rights for orcas that's not just being done by vegans those are being done by the general public that's right one species more than another we see suffrage happened in different ripen alishan gay rights happen in a different time certain classes are going to receive rights at different rates than others so I think veganism is going to be this wave of cascades have escalated some animals rights over others for a while right look I'll so anyway that's obviously an interesting points you made although it's not not the central to the discussion right now but yeah that that is a very interesting point and at the issue for instance one of your biggest followers especially someone that has a lot of followers now who vegan cheetah prints example I wanted to know what his perspective of the difference between your philosophy and his perspective and the old thing he said is different between you and him is that you want community and he doesn't give a [ __ ] about it and you know that and even the light twins like they they did a really wonderful talk with you and they're like oh eyes are like won't you like work and like make it a community where we can all interact with one another I think that we we have this longing to have this open form of communication to be able to talk about our societal differences but I think that that you have a lot of expectations on you from people like the light winds and vegan cheetah and even I have kind of been like oh I feel so smart like he he'll be able to do all these things mama and it's an effort on all of us to be able to do this and the thing is like if I was in your shoes if I was in your shoes and I was threatened and I had a swarm of YouTube people that are making video saying that I'm like the evil of the YouTube community and that I need to be dealt with I would try to police every channel the top- about me trying to find who is on my side and who wasn't that's what I would do because I would be concerned for my safety and the safety of my family during writer created this environment where any one that talked about cook food or anything else wasn't included and it became a cesspool of poison and became a fascist network I do not want something like this to happen again absolute so look the first to the first day was that that's really intelligent and I'd encourage you to make a video talking about or reflecting on those those things you just said I think that's better got up but like the second thing I'd say is sympathy can be misleading what you said is sympathetic you said this is the core sympathy said if I were in your position this is how I would feel this is what I do like I am a very unusual guy these people docs to be these people insulted my mom you know these pills every my mom into it some of them bring my daughter and my ex-wife into it accused me being a wife beater and the weird thing is I really am the one person two million who is not upset by that and the other people like other people have written me other people who durianrider denounced in the past they wrote to me talk to me about how they went into a clinical depression they just their whole life collapsed and you know they they couldn't stand up from selves or fight back because they were just so emotionally crushed I don't know Johanna Chloe I talked to her at the beginning of her thing with during writer and now she doesn't talk to anybody she may or may not have mean she publicly just says she's not talking anyone cuz she's so upset I assume that's true but you know it's easy to imagine either so that that she's just so upset or depressed so there are people collapse the weird thing is and I have reflected a little bit about this on my channel I am actually the one person who's not like that when I was saying the durianrider that I didn't care if I went to thai prison like for a couple of months ago I actually don't care when I said like I actually don't care if I live or die I actually am at that point I totally understand that but you have to admit that because they're dragging your family into it it becomes even more personal because it's not about your safety but it's about there's the thing is like during orders even making anti-semitic remarks on videos that they think is your mom it's it's cascading into a [ __ ] mess and I'm just like I think that YouTube is an animal that is one ounce ounce of narcissism because we exalt ourselves on our channel and we get all the kudos or whatnot and then veganism we have this this this moral superiority that somehow we're more morally here because we care about the animals and no one [ __ ] doesn't like so it's I think it's a mess because of both of those couple together that's just a theory you know beyond that the other side of me which is maybe unusual I often say to my friends you know that I'm a very kind of Bronze Age person I really believe in honor and dignity like you've heard me use words aunt like honor and dignity on my youtube channel which most people use don't use and so like when you look at the situation with me and vague and this is typical I say this is typical of me as a character in the way I am with all my friends it's like look and you and I had an agreement like we like we did we talked for more than an hour on on skype we talked about exactly the [ __ ] she did we talked about like it because in the past prior to that skype conversation she had been on channels like Joe best and others like approving of videos that denounced me like some of the whole video the video is titled like izel Mozart is a [ __ ] oh I then like she had the comment like wow interesting I really liked your perspective or some [ __ ] like you know just approving the video and like you know obviously I can laugh about it but it's like an like what i'm doing here is making real friends in real life like this is about actual friendship and actual trust and i'm not like many other people youtube is sort of about fame or but like a celebrity type relationship something but like my relationships these people including including like vegan gains vegan gains very famous but including vegan cheetah you can see when i was on is you now I talked to vegan cheetah the way I talked to a friend I know in real life like period and i just mentioned like i have a podcast then we recorded right after his mom died where we talked about the death and then you're the only one that stuck by him made that video it's just like so he goes to rehab he loses his [ __ ] mom and no one gives [ __ ] and then right when he comes out right when it comes out of rehab he loses a hair product and that was just out animals you're not even [ __ ] vegan vegan cheetah and then right after that then comes out the gary ross is an [ __ ] and all these like just holding all these other vegan youtubers accountable which is something that needed to be done for a while because we need that that growth to grow look my point is actually not that i'm a nice guy as always i'm not arguing that i'm a nice guy because I have the relation with cheetah my point was to say like with people like an and also ally tabrizi a lot of people freaked out that I dared to criticize le Tabrizi it's not even a criticism like I haven't criticized I degrees I've said Ali tabrizi was my friend to me that was a human personal friendship and it's over now and I'm sad about that like that that's like I just say that's not really a criticism it's not like hey I disagree with your view one on vivisection pet ownership it's not intellectual it's not political it's not it's just hey you know what this guy was my friend and he did the wrong thing when it mattered and now I think we're never gonna speak again and that's sad for me right now like vagin was never my close friend but we did we had this hour-long Skype conversation but at the same time you're going to someone's channel like Joe best we can just stick with your best as one example but it's not them you're going to channels that hate me and really tell lies about me and like we were just talking about like with vegan for good channels that are not credible that are really making up lies and you're agreeing with them at the same time that to my face you're telling me something else so again that to me in terms of friendship it's not political I would have never made a public issue of it in terms of friendship what I have to say to her as we're done I never want to talk to you and that was not on my youtube channel that was not in my patron that was not even on my facebook I made no public statement about that I said to an privately and again in this case it's not out of the blue on the in the Skype conversation we talked about exactly this issue about exactly her going these channels and approving me and a couple of other issues where was like look and like if you don't understand the friction between us this is the friction it's just the end of a personal friendship for me and now you see what she did she turns around first opportunity she's being a fan more about it and she's approaching me saying oh well why couldn't we have just talked about the problem I could say that's you and you never talked to me about the problem you did all this [ __ ] publicly at every stage so you know I was trying on the video to say hey I know you're going through a lot I support you with the [ __ ] [ __ ] a during right or did I [ __ ] put my neck out on the line locally from a [ __ ] gang Posse here locally say no I don't agree assaulting someone's ok yeah we used to be friends but I don't agree with that I took a stand like look I totally understand I chose you and that's why that's the sense in which you're different from Joe best but the sense of what you're the same as Joe best is in that video you're repeating things other people said about me that are actually not true and you don't realize that but that's why I'm writing to you and saying you look like like you know just just to stay with same example like to say that I tried to shut down somebody else's channel to say that I'm censoring people I totally understand why you're saying that because other people have said it but that's like Joe best he made videos about me that from a legal perspective did defame me because Joe best basically heard things that durianrider said and a couple of other people close to Jerry minor and she treated those things as true and then he came on camera and he he basically repeated those things and expanded on them and speculate about them so like Jabba again Joe best is not as bad as during writer but I had to write to your bestest a look Joe like and at one point during writer had already admitted those things were [ __ ] was like Joe this is defamation like you're actually saying like I contacted underage girls in Chiang Mai which is not true and never was true and even if like cojo like his style he acts as if it's reasonable oh well you know let's just think about it I mean you know like his style is not angry but it's like dude I don't care if you're calm or angry what you're saying about me is you know six like fifth right so that's all it says I think for you even you can get stuck in that trap where you're treating sources that are not credible it's credible you're not asking me and you could you can't get in touch with me and I think in your case you also weren't pausing to think well there must be another side to this story like even with the YouTube blocking the one video I didn't block 10 videos as one so obviously one video legally did something wrong so that's all I'm saying this stuff like that way you can put the pieces together I want to come back tonight city road sign you said earlier was also true you said people had expectations on me and people wanted me to build some kind of a community or network well however they imagine they measure different but like the contrast that is for me I am just trying to make real friends like no no community like it's that simple and I remember like James James for example he had like an epiphany about that one day like he had already known me for a couple of months and he said you know what today is the first day that I figured out that you're actually trying to be my friend and he said the reason that was so hard from to understand is that every other person he talked to on YouTube that was not what they were trying to do they were either trying to you know start a channel or do something related to fame or promotion or some kind of more political thing and like when I talked to Jake from day one Jake's much younger than I forgot he's 21 or something but it's like I just talked to him the same way I talk to someone I met in a cafe and then I get to know you better and I'm starting to look right and that's it where there's there's really nothing else going on I think you should probably address that your intention is to just find close friends that end up working with you that's how it is because the perception of vegan cheetah and light winds is that you're somehow like making this like this community that's going to just help to bring more diversity into the vegan movement yeah well look I mean it's possible like within my patreon I've got more than 200 members but really only 50 members are active because some people just pay you money and don't come around like they just support you they want to show that they support you it's only one dollar so he likes that big a deal but uh i mean if if that was what i was trying to do then I would be failing which is fine i mean you know i am interested in meeting as many like-minded people and people cooperate with as possible but something I talked about my channel a relatively long time ago you know I'm also really about like in real life I'm about real activism real project even though currently in China I can't do anything like that so you know the light twins are Canadian citizens they live like 3,000 kilometers away from where i live canada's a huge country like you know even vegan gains whatever like so yeah it is about real friendship it is about real cooperation is but real activism it's also about the long term and again I'm not trying to convince you that I'm a nice guy I said earlier like I'm a bit of a Bronze Age character like to me I look at someone like vague an so the one hand there's friendship on the other hand there's like okay this saving the planet thing is this someone i can actually cooperate with to do something in terms of politics activism ecology and in vegas case the answer is really know right like you know she's not going to be that person off with other people the ant the answer is yes and my sense of honor and dignity which may be [ __ ] and it certainly it's out of fashion in 2016 it's very medieval is like you know look man you know when it counts uh you know do you do you live up to this this notion i have a boat owner dig like someone else writing to be talked about loyalty i actually don't use the word loyalty I don't expect someone like an to be loyal to me I don't but you know if there's a conflict like this you know again if you actually believe the [ __ ] yo best is saying why didn't you ask me either personally or in patron when you have because again her saying she can't talk to me she had ways to talk to me it should get touch me in two seconds you know if any of these like like about the money thing this is not big hands as you but like other people if you actually think I've stolen the money why wouldn't you ask me instead of denouncing me in public like right when we have contact when you know me you know what I mean so to me those are more questions of you know honor and dignity and and what have you because again in many cases I think they don't believe it it's just famewhore activity it's just like hey if I make a video saying izel stole the money I can get an extra 200 views or 500 these are all small numbers right as opposed to actually talk to me reducing really sincere there is no good and evil like this this topic on YouTube is not some [ __ ] movie that's playing out in the cinema this is real life so when you're saying someone's evil and a single-handedly taking down the movement someone is not Darth Vader or some [ __ ] like evil like supreme figure in some movie [ __ ] this is real life [ __ ] and we this is more about the interaction between one another and that's why communication is essential so when when I'm seeing videos that like been taken down or I see that there's not a correspondence and there's a refusal to correspond it further creates this mystique and detachment from interaction and then people's minds go haywire and they start filling in the blanks of some crazy convoluted stories right look I mean I'd say so that's why he just comes into credible sources and now at this point vague and also is not a credible source she's just making [ __ ] up about me about how I'm a narcissist and whatever she's gone off the deep end and again like look there's a difference between people who disagree with me and people where I think they're stupid or otherwise or some was insane some people are not stupid but they're they're mentally unwell and I just never want to talk to them again I don't want to cooperate with them something I said the other day to somebody was look it doesn't matter like this weekend there could be a thousand people who want to talk to me on skype there could be a hundred people or there could be just ten people I still can't talk to all them I still have to say no to a bun even if it's only 10 people I'm gonna say no to seven you cook mean so like I'm not famous but maybe 2,000 people really liked me on the internet like 5000 people watch me 2000 people really care like I you know I made the time to talk to you there are a bunch of other people I'm saying no to and yes no no no no it's cool but like I just say like this is the reality is like so if people ask what's the dark psychological motive a Maya narcissism for saying look and [ __ ] it i'm not doing this again that's just a reality was I already did it with her once I think less than a month ago maybe it's maybe at six weeks but like not that long though it's like an I took the time we talked for more than an hour we we set ground rules we addressed all this [ __ ] from the past we thought we had a good basis it's like you don't get another two hours out of me I'm done like okay and Nelly just a couple weeks later it's the same [ __ ] and you're freaking out again like I'm sure an I could have gotten her on skype again and calmed her down and talked her through it me like look and here's what you need to understand but no and the and the truth is it may be a horrible thing to say the reason for my making that decision is that I think she's too stupid to be worth my time and yes maybe I'm a complete [ __ ] for saying that but I said it to her privately I didn't say to a single other human being not even one other human being that I say am was stupid too I said to her privately and I'm not doing this you again and you know I think you're too stupid to play this game that's also not saying you're completely stupid it's saying I'm thinking too stupid to play the games you are playing on youtube because she is she was playing games which is whatever so you know yes I again I'm not I'm never claimed to be a nice guy but the reality is meanwhile like emotionally there's one person who's gonna talk to me about on skype this weekend and she is a vegan youtuber who deleted her channel I don't nobody ever threatened to kill her nobody threatened to beat her up she did ahead but still the emotional YouTube really [ __ ] her up emotionally so that happened some people even Jake Eames he he shut down for a while you know he i think he's making videos again I've seen a lot of people get emotionally devastated by this stuff and it is kind of funny i'm in this tiny minority of people it even when they bring my mom into it even when they bring my daughter into it it doesn't impact people show the way but i am saying to people including an including and said this directly and including vegan for good i'm saying people I need you to have intellectual integrity because if I'm going to spend my time in the internet debating the stuff I want to debate things that have real substance like you like you and I think don't really disagree on any issues but if you really disagreed with me about the vivisection issue but it was an intelligent disagreement that's about the substance it's not accusing me of working for the CIA it's not accusing me of destroying the begin- inside it's not making up [ __ ] whatever I I think that's totally worthwhile I'd say great let's have this debate but the problem is so much of the stuff is this Fame [ __ ] or fame or behavior where I can't spend my time doing that vegan ideology as much as it can help to be a tool towards a better world that it doesn't have all the answers right and I think that a lot of people just want to think that veganism is just this like magic bullet it's like the Sorcerer's Stone like it you it's everything you can eat it like it'll cure every big coming back to this this question of dividing the community for you as a gay man i'm sorry i'm presuming you're gay man what if so what if someone said you you know what this gay rights thing well there's no point doing what we're doing we need to work within the Catholic Church to make the Catholic Church pro-gay rights you would have to make a decision maybe you think that's great idea but for me if I were gay i'm not but i can get zip ties okay look either i'm going to spend the next 10 years of my life working inside an organization that openly hates me or I say [ __ ] that I'm going to join some other religion or some other or just not just leave the Catholic Church should have nothing that's a decision you have to make and millions gay people three I have met gay people who are still Catholic you know it is what it is they something with the decision right right but my point is here with veganism it's not dividing the community each of us there were a lot of kind of crappy vegan organizations or crappy ecological organizations where we have to make that decision a case-by-case basis do I want to spend the next five years of my life inside People for the Ethical Treatment animals some people do some people are happy with that do you all want to spend the next five years my life inside an organization that eats meat that's like a you know nature conservation group but there may be they are pro hunting and even within veganism so direct action everywhere I think it's kind of lame I see it it's the summer I think it's kind of [ __ ] but you individually we have to make a decision do I think this is [ __ ] to the point where I want to leave like the Catholic Church or do I want to work inside it or what so to me that's not dividing the community that's being honest about like hey life is complicated [ __ ] up we're making these kinds of decisions and life isn't life is long but it's not that long I don't have ten years to [ __ ] around with the Catholic Church I don't think you do either but you know what I mean I what so that's the kind of that's the kind of thinking world doing I've been thinking about this too because when I grew up as a Christian they're saying well Christians can't go to bars they can't do this they can't see these specific movies and I was like so one we're avoiding ourselves from these experiences to be able to reach the public to be able to talk to them to we're avoiding ourselves from these environments to be able to have these conversations so it's the same of veganism like we have to integrate the complexity of the human experience and also we have to challenge our quote unquote morals of veganism and sometimes go to the zoo and challenge the zoo perspective to actually see it for what it is to mourn it to feel it and to see how people interact in those environments because when we exclude ourselves from those environments like my brother brought me to sea world hey like he drove dad and said oh we're going to seaworld and I'm like I don't want to go to sea world I'm vegan like what do I do I was only there for a day so I was like I'm guess i'll go into sea world it's against my ethics to spend time with my brother / suddenly have a day to spend with him and I just wheat at seeing these these orcas performing in these dolphins in this like bathtub but that was a really amazing experience because it it's set in stone Mon stance against sea world I was like no and I saw the propaganda they use so it was a good experience but it was it was a it was a horrifying experience I recently I was I went to the zoo in Thailand in Chiang Mai and I just went to the zoo again here in China and same route so I've talked about this I think mostly within my patreon actually not on not on youtube in patreon I did podcast all Yuma than that question of you know would you yourself go to a zoo as a vegan for me the answer is yes for these kinds are basically for activists reasons basically to be to have an informed perspective but also like would you take your own child to the zoo and what's that like as a vegan whenever you and I got responses from other vegans who said yes I do take my son or daughter to the zoo and we do talk about it and like as a vegan in some ways I think you're on better ground than the other people do because you can say to your son or daughter everyone else here kills cows and pigs on a daily basis for no reason and we don't you know what I mean like we're like we're special nonsense we care enough that we don't do that and you know these animals even though some of them are suffering the to like some of those animals are just obviously miserable they're the best treated animals in the world which it's like it's surreal but like I was just at a zoo in China and I can look at those monkeys the monkeys in the cage and it's it's pretty miserable for them they're the best treated monkey they're the best best treated animals in the nation of China compared to the pigs the cows compared to so many compared to house I was Pat's compared to dogs these this is the pampered elite and it's still terrible it's still morally you know as a vegan you still react to it this way as a huge morale problem so yeah anyway obviously there's so much there's so much we agree about Conrad and this this has been a great conversation I love pink all right i'm not sure if you've seen them in your time in china or Thailand yeah I actually have a video a video specifically mentioning pengkalan maybe the horror of that begonia what are the most near and dear creatures to my heart but every time they go to Thailand it's the most traffic zone for pangolin in the world and not one route so forth [ __ ] has talked about this it's like when they're in vacation in Thailand they like are oblivious to any animal exploitation at all and it's like these creatures are kinda conceited and I love them and it's like well I'm the one exception I have a video i have a video of a Pangolin i have a video describing how i saw pangolin being killed and butchered by the side of the road in Laos in the jungle so hiccup I want my points Conrad I'm the one guy vanished en