Vegsource defends Durianrider, I defend myself (my response to "Nina and Randa's Dad", Jeff Nelson)
25 July 2016 [link youtube]
Do you want to pretend that credible threats of gang violence within veganism (a group of goons beating someone down in the street) are equivalent to a misunderstanding (on video) about whether or not your (vegan) daughters eat honey-from-bees? Really, my dude?
Here's the link to the earlier video (alluded to in this one) showing screen-shots of D.R.'s threats against me, in case you haven't seen it before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRLbgCzJHyM
Youtube Automatic Transcription
a large part of what I do is the study
of languages languages philosophy political science and how those pieces fit together sometimes with a bit of history some of the more contemporary focus sometimes an ancient one etc so I do observe oddities in the English language closely and sometimes you know the political nuances of how things are said in Chinese Japanese lotion you name it I've dealt with politics for First Nations for Cree for indigenous people in Canada and other groups so the full list of languages have had to deal with is pretty long and my studies in many of those areas did ultimately end in failure ie there are languages I would have liked to have become fluent in but I didn't have the opportunity at the end to attain fluency it's interesting to me the subtle shift in meaning when people use the word expect in English in the following questioning way what did you expect me to do we already shifted from a sincere question of ethics to a strange category of excuse making well after September 11th what did you expect george w bush to do isn't that a very different question from asking do you think he did the right thing isn't it a different question from asking what's the best possible thing he could have done what's the worst possible thing you could have done well in what ways was he right in what ways was he wrong doesn't have to be george w bush it can be Tony Blair it can be francois hollande after the the terrorist attacks in Paris not so long ago you could say you know what was the best thing he could have done what was the correct correct thing of the decisions he made which ones were right which ones wrong those are all meaningful questions but as soon as we start by asking what did you expect to do what do you expect what do you expect it's interesting to me because there's nothing in the wording of the question that makes it clear and yet in a subtle sense the nature of the demand has totally shifted into excuse making so this fellow who is slightly famous because he is the father of Nina and Randa who are themselves slightly famous for appearing in a Taco Bell commercial and for playing the guitar and for being vegan and for giving advice on diet and health and other things um this guy uses the name veg source he has asked what did you expect me to do now he backs that up by of course giving unreasonable examples of what someone might have expect what what did you expect me to do what did you expect George Bush to do just save the world what use pictures of you just wave his hands and make everything better what did you expect George Bush to do after Hurricane Katrina now that could be a really meaningful question again it would never be phrased that way let's make a list of the ten policy decisions george w bush should have taken after hurricane katrina let's examine the policy decisions he actually did make and decide which were good which were bad which were optimal which were suboptimal what would have been optimal or ideal in retrospect those are meaningful questions but as soon as we framework what did you expect george bush to do it's funny how the whole game changes huh ok veg source what did i expect you to do and what did you actually do one of my fans wrote to you a supporter of mine on patreon and he sent me the screenshots of your replies basically he sent you two messages maybe maybe three maybe send more after but I remember too where he was basically saying to you look this thing that happened in Chiangmai is a big deal you know what do you think about it you know asking you to take it seriously he was not asking you to make a video about me I've never asked that of you nobody asked of you my fan did ask I didn't ask nobody has suggested that so you say what do you expect me to do and then to supply as a suggestion what you imagine I might fix for you being that you make a video about me which you've now done incidentally pat yourself on the back um no but when my fan asked you about this your reply was completely dismissive completely contemptuous you pretended you didn't know who I was whereas he clearly did I know you've watched some of the videos on my channel one of your recent videos actually includes a clip from one of my videos from my channel which is fine I'm not complaining but I mean it's I can tell you know that that's where you got that from um you know me I know you when my fan asked you about this your reply was completely contemptuous completely dismissive and completely backing and supporting durianrider so the questions you're getting now are not at a left field whether they're from my fans or your fans or anyone else people are a bit shocked and appalled that you continued supporting durianrider at a time when he threatened to have a gang of thugs beat me up in the cheap streets of Chiangmai and yes that threat was initially made indirectly he was a he was addressing the people who could be those thugs he was calling for his supporters the people who you know supposedly what would would do his bidding but soon enough me I know hours later he was sending those threats to me directly which everyone here has seen the screenshots I can give the link to the video below in case anyone doesn't already know about this this is not my imagination this has all been documented etc now um it's not a question what I expected you to do I don't have the expectations on you you could have responded in any way you could have responded with sincere concern like oh boy a friend of mine during Ryder someone who is your friend is resorting to street violence to threats of having a gang of thugs beat someone up in the streets you could have been concerned you could have been interested to look into it you could have said well gee I don't know this is the first I've heard about it whether or not it was the first year but boy that's serious enough that I should look into it that's what you you could have done someone might have expected that of you someone might have asked it of you that might have been morally good or at least morally neutral that might have been responsible what sighs like if anyone anyone I knew on the internet somebody knew closely someone personally someone I had this kind of relationship like such as you've had with durianrider with or or a stranger if I found out that that stranger had done during rider did to me I'd be concerned it would change my opinion of them morally forever and you know we've come close to that you guys may or may not know you mean the light twins made some videos where they were kind of making fun of vegan cheetah and it sounds like especially if you quoted out of context it sounds like they're threatening to go beat him up in the streets you know in terms of their turn of phrase no I knew that wasn't what they were doing because I talked to them I actually talked to them before that video was made public or they talked to me both whatever you want to say and I remember they you know they completely reassured me that what they were talking about was a charity boxing match something that you know promotes veganism and you know promote them promote vegan cheetah it could be fun and from my perspective if those guys ever do have that boxing match you know I think they'll be the best of friends six months later or six minutes later there's no real hostility there's no malice but definitely if they hadn't talked to me first I might have been concerned based on what they said in that video that they were actually talking about about assaulting someone like jumping someone in an alleyway something with malice something with danger again there are two guys they're not a gang guys what what during Ryder was threatening was strictly speaking gang violence there was a gang of people beating you up in the streets and he was refusing to meet with me under any other circumstances okay to this day during Ryder has never written to me privately all the communications were public all public messages the only private message I ever sent to him the only thing that was not you know you guys have seen the screenshots the only thing that wasn't on a public forum whether you know there's one message back and forth on patreon these other things were on Facebook or what-have-you the one message I sent to him that was accompanied by a screenshot that you guys have seen one of the screenshots in the video was don't act like it's hard to find me and the screenshot said something you all guys have already heard me say was look if you want to talk to me by email you can talk to me now if you want to talk to me by Skype we can make it happen in five minutes but if you want to get in a boxing ring you know that's cool you want to catch a fade we can do that too you know all I've seen the only private message of ever since that guy was don't act like it's hard to find okay veg source for you to say to me that I can fight my own battles [ __ ] you that's disrespect and you're in no position to disrespect me in this okay you [ __ ] up okay nobody was asked to make a video no he's asked me to say or do anything but you have just given an apologia for why you and during writer have been friends still are friends why you backed him when he did things that were deeply immoral and disturbing things that be disturbing for anyone knew what durianrider did to me what went down in Chiangmai would be disturbing if during rider was just some loser who fixed bikes at the local bike shop you know it okay but he's not durianrider describes himself as the most influential vegan activist in the world okay he describes himself as a serious political leader and you know that he has power over people some people relate to him as a cult leader I don't even blame him for that I don't but he has a cult-like authority over some people I've met sometimes I've seen some of them face to face not everyone there are other people who affirmed it's just light-hearted entertainment there people who don't take it that seriously there are people from it's just weight loss advice there are people for whom obviously it's a joke and they just laugh at everything he does but yes during writer does have followers who hang on his every word he does have followers where it's very believable they'd get together and beat someone up under exactly those circumstances and when I was in Chiangmai okay so was this a credible threat I think I haven't told this this story before there was one morning when I woke up I woke up real early maybe maybe 5:15 a.m. 5:20 AM something like that and I opened up my window and the window in this apartment building you could see outside but you could also see through two windows into the hallway so the hallway where people would wait for the elevator in that building so it's an exterior window open it up but I'm actually seeing partly and into the hallway the whole way in front of my own apartment building in front of my own apartment inside inside the apartment building open up the window and there's a skinny dude standing there the bike helmet skin-tight green you know bike jersey on and the guy has his cell phone out and you know he's idly you know paging through emails or something on his cell phone and you know in that split second I thought oh they're here and you know what I didn't feel scared I didn't feel angry I actually feel happy I was like oh so it's not all just [ __ ] after all like it's 5:20 a.m. or something and they're actually at my door we're actually gonna do this now of course it turned out it was a completely you know I I thought it you know I Dell this in your mind takes a fraction of a second a split second later the guy was wearing a green biking jersey but it didn't say vegan he was just some guy who woke up early to go long-distance cycling or whatever and you know he was just waiting for the elevator he got in the elevator and he left he wasn't coming to my apartment he just happened to be right in front of my apartment that bone went open at the window you know during writer made all this noise of wanting to know where I live so he could come to my door and beat me up in reality I walked past the front door of their most popular vegan restaurant were all those guys hung and I talked to those guys some of them in front of that restaurant so they knew where I lived it was no mystery it was not hard to find me and as you know I posted open lasted okay I'm gonna do a karaoke night if they want to show up and beat me up or they want to show up and just talk to me they can do that so I made myself available in every possible way whether it was on the street at the karaoke bar in my apartment building in the boxing ring whatever I said see me when you see me don't act like it's hard to find me okay you want to tell me I can fight my own fights that's not the question okay that is not the question okay and I I can relate I could have been in your position what would I have done if the light twins they're not crazy but let's say the light twins were crazy and they really were threatening to beat up cheetah on the streets which again if you take it out of context kind of sort of sounds like that's where they were going in like one of their videos they didn't really mean it bla bla bla whatever okay no for me I would take that seriously I take it seriously not just because it's a threat against a person but because it's the kind of threat that really can discredit veganism and it especially discredits this little demi-monde we're all sharing here right we're all people who talk about veganism on YouTube right I got the same thing to say to you veggie veggies I've got the same thing to say to you don't act like it's hard to find me okay friend of mine I did a podcast with the other day a lawyer does ecological law environmental law cases in Washington DC he showed me a list recently he showed me a list of how many people who talk about veganism on YouTube can pull 1000 viewers per video ok there were only 212 names on that list ok so the number of people like us the number of people in this devimon it's a small circle of people I don't expect you to care about me but you know what when you look at that list it gets smaller and smaller if you take out the people who just do cooking videos nothing wrong with that but it's different from what we do people who just do makeup videos people who just do swimming at the beach videos when you get down to substantive content actually you and me and durianrider we're in a small pond we're in a small circle okay this little world we share it's a small world do I expect you to be concerned when a friend and colleague of yours in that small world sharing this small ecosystem threaten someone else with exactly that kind of violence credible threat we're both in Chiangmai I'm actually out there on those streets in Chiangmai I'm meeting those people and faces and I'm facing them yeah I expect you to be concerned I expect you to say something velar than what you did say for your own professional reputation for dirty and writers reputation for the reputation of vegans with the future of this whole thing yes I expected better than you do you want to know what I expected of you yes I expected some level of human interest I expect you not to make lame-ass excuses for durianrider I expected you now not to make lame-ass excuses for yourself
of languages languages philosophy political science and how those pieces fit together sometimes with a bit of history some of the more contemporary focus sometimes an ancient one etc so I do observe oddities in the English language closely and sometimes you know the political nuances of how things are said in Chinese Japanese lotion you name it I've dealt with politics for First Nations for Cree for indigenous people in Canada and other groups so the full list of languages have had to deal with is pretty long and my studies in many of those areas did ultimately end in failure ie there are languages I would have liked to have become fluent in but I didn't have the opportunity at the end to attain fluency it's interesting to me the subtle shift in meaning when people use the word expect in English in the following questioning way what did you expect me to do we already shifted from a sincere question of ethics to a strange category of excuse making well after September 11th what did you expect george w bush to do isn't that a very different question from asking do you think he did the right thing isn't it a different question from asking what's the best possible thing he could have done what's the worst possible thing you could have done well in what ways was he right in what ways was he wrong doesn't have to be george w bush it can be Tony Blair it can be francois hollande after the the terrorist attacks in Paris not so long ago you could say you know what was the best thing he could have done what was the correct correct thing of the decisions he made which ones were right which ones wrong those are all meaningful questions but as soon as we start by asking what did you expect to do what do you expect what do you expect it's interesting to me because there's nothing in the wording of the question that makes it clear and yet in a subtle sense the nature of the demand has totally shifted into excuse making so this fellow who is slightly famous because he is the father of Nina and Randa who are themselves slightly famous for appearing in a Taco Bell commercial and for playing the guitar and for being vegan and for giving advice on diet and health and other things um this guy uses the name veg source he has asked what did you expect me to do now he backs that up by of course giving unreasonable examples of what someone might have expect what what did you expect me to do what did you expect George Bush to do just save the world what use pictures of you just wave his hands and make everything better what did you expect George Bush to do after Hurricane Katrina now that could be a really meaningful question again it would never be phrased that way let's make a list of the ten policy decisions george w bush should have taken after hurricane katrina let's examine the policy decisions he actually did make and decide which were good which were bad which were optimal which were suboptimal what would have been optimal or ideal in retrospect those are meaningful questions but as soon as we framework what did you expect george bush to do it's funny how the whole game changes huh ok veg source what did i expect you to do and what did you actually do one of my fans wrote to you a supporter of mine on patreon and he sent me the screenshots of your replies basically he sent you two messages maybe maybe three maybe send more after but I remember too where he was basically saying to you look this thing that happened in Chiangmai is a big deal you know what do you think about it you know asking you to take it seriously he was not asking you to make a video about me I've never asked that of you nobody asked of you my fan did ask I didn't ask nobody has suggested that so you say what do you expect me to do and then to supply as a suggestion what you imagine I might fix for you being that you make a video about me which you've now done incidentally pat yourself on the back um no but when my fan asked you about this your reply was completely dismissive completely contemptuous you pretended you didn't know who I was whereas he clearly did I know you've watched some of the videos on my channel one of your recent videos actually includes a clip from one of my videos from my channel which is fine I'm not complaining but I mean it's I can tell you know that that's where you got that from um you know me I know you when my fan asked you about this your reply was completely contemptuous completely dismissive and completely backing and supporting durianrider so the questions you're getting now are not at a left field whether they're from my fans or your fans or anyone else people are a bit shocked and appalled that you continued supporting durianrider at a time when he threatened to have a gang of thugs beat me up in the cheap streets of Chiangmai and yes that threat was initially made indirectly he was a he was addressing the people who could be those thugs he was calling for his supporters the people who you know supposedly what would would do his bidding but soon enough me I know hours later he was sending those threats to me directly which everyone here has seen the screenshots I can give the link to the video below in case anyone doesn't already know about this this is not my imagination this has all been documented etc now um it's not a question what I expected you to do I don't have the expectations on you you could have responded in any way you could have responded with sincere concern like oh boy a friend of mine during Ryder someone who is your friend is resorting to street violence to threats of having a gang of thugs beat someone up in the streets you could have been concerned you could have been interested to look into it you could have said well gee I don't know this is the first I've heard about it whether or not it was the first year but boy that's serious enough that I should look into it that's what you you could have done someone might have expected that of you someone might have asked it of you that might have been morally good or at least morally neutral that might have been responsible what sighs like if anyone anyone I knew on the internet somebody knew closely someone personally someone I had this kind of relationship like such as you've had with durianrider with or or a stranger if I found out that that stranger had done during rider did to me I'd be concerned it would change my opinion of them morally forever and you know we've come close to that you guys may or may not know you mean the light twins made some videos where they were kind of making fun of vegan cheetah and it sounds like especially if you quoted out of context it sounds like they're threatening to go beat him up in the streets you know in terms of their turn of phrase no I knew that wasn't what they were doing because I talked to them I actually talked to them before that video was made public or they talked to me both whatever you want to say and I remember they you know they completely reassured me that what they were talking about was a charity boxing match something that you know promotes veganism and you know promote them promote vegan cheetah it could be fun and from my perspective if those guys ever do have that boxing match you know I think they'll be the best of friends six months later or six minutes later there's no real hostility there's no malice but definitely if they hadn't talked to me first I might have been concerned based on what they said in that video that they were actually talking about about assaulting someone like jumping someone in an alleyway something with malice something with danger again there are two guys they're not a gang guys what what during Ryder was threatening was strictly speaking gang violence there was a gang of people beating you up in the streets and he was refusing to meet with me under any other circumstances okay to this day during Ryder has never written to me privately all the communications were public all public messages the only private message I ever sent to him the only thing that was not you know you guys have seen the screenshots the only thing that wasn't on a public forum whether you know there's one message back and forth on patreon these other things were on Facebook or what-have-you the one message I sent to him that was accompanied by a screenshot that you guys have seen one of the screenshots in the video was don't act like it's hard to find me and the screenshot said something you all guys have already heard me say was look if you want to talk to me by email you can talk to me now if you want to talk to me by Skype we can make it happen in five minutes but if you want to get in a boxing ring you know that's cool you want to catch a fade we can do that too you know all I've seen the only private message of ever since that guy was don't act like it's hard to find okay veg source for you to say to me that I can fight my own battles [ __ ] you that's disrespect and you're in no position to disrespect me in this okay you [ __ ] up okay nobody was asked to make a video no he's asked me to say or do anything but you have just given an apologia for why you and during writer have been friends still are friends why you backed him when he did things that were deeply immoral and disturbing things that be disturbing for anyone knew what durianrider did to me what went down in Chiangmai would be disturbing if during rider was just some loser who fixed bikes at the local bike shop you know it okay but he's not durianrider describes himself as the most influential vegan activist in the world okay he describes himself as a serious political leader and you know that he has power over people some people relate to him as a cult leader I don't even blame him for that I don't but he has a cult-like authority over some people I've met sometimes I've seen some of them face to face not everyone there are other people who affirmed it's just light-hearted entertainment there people who don't take it that seriously there are people from it's just weight loss advice there are people for whom obviously it's a joke and they just laugh at everything he does but yes during writer does have followers who hang on his every word he does have followers where it's very believable they'd get together and beat someone up under exactly those circumstances and when I was in Chiangmai okay so was this a credible threat I think I haven't told this this story before there was one morning when I woke up I woke up real early maybe maybe 5:15 a.m. 5:20 AM something like that and I opened up my window and the window in this apartment building you could see outside but you could also see through two windows into the hallway so the hallway where people would wait for the elevator in that building so it's an exterior window open it up but I'm actually seeing partly and into the hallway the whole way in front of my own apartment building in front of my own apartment inside inside the apartment building open up the window and there's a skinny dude standing there the bike helmet skin-tight green you know bike jersey on and the guy has his cell phone out and you know he's idly you know paging through emails or something on his cell phone and you know in that split second I thought oh they're here and you know what I didn't feel scared I didn't feel angry I actually feel happy I was like oh so it's not all just [ __ ] after all like it's 5:20 a.m. or something and they're actually at my door we're actually gonna do this now of course it turned out it was a completely you know I I thought it you know I Dell this in your mind takes a fraction of a second a split second later the guy was wearing a green biking jersey but it didn't say vegan he was just some guy who woke up early to go long-distance cycling or whatever and you know he was just waiting for the elevator he got in the elevator and he left he wasn't coming to my apartment he just happened to be right in front of my apartment that bone went open at the window you know during writer made all this noise of wanting to know where I live so he could come to my door and beat me up in reality I walked past the front door of their most popular vegan restaurant were all those guys hung and I talked to those guys some of them in front of that restaurant so they knew where I lived it was no mystery it was not hard to find me and as you know I posted open lasted okay I'm gonna do a karaoke night if they want to show up and beat me up or they want to show up and just talk to me they can do that so I made myself available in every possible way whether it was on the street at the karaoke bar in my apartment building in the boxing ring whatever I said see me when you see me don't act like it's hard to find me okay you want to tell me I can fight my own fights that's not the question okay that is not the question okay and I I can relate I could have been in your position what would I have done if the light twins they're not crazy but let's say the light twins were crazy and they really were threatening to beat up cheetah on the streets which again if you take it out of context kind of sort of sounds like that's where they were going in like one of their videos they didn't really mean it bla bla bla whatever okay no for me I would take that seriously I take it seriously not just because it's a threat against a person but because it's the kind of threat that really can discredit veganism and it especially discredits this little demi-monde we're all sharing here right we're all people who talk about veganism on YouTube right I got the same thing to say to you veggie veggies I've got the same thing to say to you don't act like it's hard to find me okay friend of mine I did a podcast with the other day a lawyer does ecological law environmental law cases in Washington DC he showed me a list recently he showed me a list of how many people who talk about veganism on YouTube can pull 1000 viewers per video ok there were only 212 names on that list ok so the number of people like us the number of people in this devimon it's a small circle of people I don't expect you to care about me but you know what when you look at that list it gets smaller and smaller if you take out the people who just do cooking videos nothing wrong with that but it's different from what we do people who just do makeup videos people who just do swimming at the beach videos when you get down to substantive content actually you and me and durianrider we're in a small pond we're in a small circle okay this little world we share it's a small world do I expect you to be concerned when a friend and colleague of yours in that small world sharing this small ecosystem threaten someone else with exactly that kind of violence credible threat we're both in Chiangmai I'm actually out there on those streets in Chiangmai I'm meeting those people and faces and I'm facing them yeah I expect you to be concerned I expect you to say something velar than what you did say for your own professional reputation for dirty and writers reputation for the reputation of vegans with the future of this whole thing yes I expected better than you do you want to know what I expected of you yes I expected some level of human interest I expect you not to make lame-ass excuses for durianrider I expected you now not to make lame-ass excuses for yourself