Durianrider says I'm "pro-vivisection": what does "anti-vivisection" really mean?

yo what up uh I've been accused of being
pro vivisection by many many people it amuses me somewhat that this was a central part of durian riders defamation against me in several of his videos he would sort of make the the baseline element of his attack against me the claim that I was pro vivisection and then he would proceed to build on this series of Lies he would lie about the order of events claiming that I initiated violence against him when the exact opposite is true he made threats of violence against me and then I had to deal with it he would lie about things he made up at a thin air claiming that was a wife beater claiming that I needed to provide legal proof that I was not a wife beater although amusingly by complete coincidence i actually did provide him with a current criminal record check from canada that relate to the job i had lined up in china i needed criminal background check to get that job so i did actually have a fresh criminal record check which didn't interest them you'll be shocked to know he was not addressed the facts but it's always been a sort of interesting light motif among my stupidest and most extreme critics that they want to claim again and again that I am pro vivisection now a small number of people see those frankly defamatory attacks against me it is defamation definitely under Canadian law to say that I'm vivisection in American Court it probably would be but not really worth talking about here um it is actually defamatory to say that I'm pro vivisection if you go to my youtube channel and you search for the word vivisection there are three videos that have the recession in the title these are not the only videos in which I discussed the issue the politics of animals being exploited in laboratories the one video I would recommend most actually does not have vivisection the title those are all good videos too don't get me wrong there's a recent video called vegans versus the wildlife management paradigm and I will give you the link to that so as that title suggests they're the main topic being dealt with is wildlife management and the question of how we think about domesticated animals in contrast to wild animals etc how whoever in the midst of that video you do get a rapid and somewhat emotional emotionally charged rundown of what my views are on vivisection how ridiculous the response of the vegan community has been I make contrast there that I've made throughout my career on YouTube throughout my couple of years here making videos on YouTube I often make comparisons to how we've quit smoking as a society the movement towards the abolition of cigarettes being something very different from the abolition of slavery being something very different from the United States civil war a war that was fought over the abolition of slavery people like to compare things to slavery often omit the fact that there was a war involved I when American slavery he thought about slavery in Sri Lanka Douglas slavery in ancient Egypt or ancient Greece you can say a lot about slavery but you know all comparisons are odious and the comparison to slavery is in some ways especially Otis and problem problematic but the comparison to Appalachia within the United States tends to overlook tents overlook the Civil War people want to say that somehow the future veganism is going to be like the history of how slavery was abolished um but outstanding in the videos that are up you know there's one video only 11 minutes long vivisection an insider's perspective I have actually spoken to some scientists involved in research that exploits animals whether it's vivisection technically or not who are vegan who are vegan who are pro vegan but who do regard what they're doing in the sciences as medically necessary as beneficial to Planet Earth is making the world a better place etc now what I want to ask in this video in contrast to the hyperbolic denunciation defamation of me as someone who has probed in the section there's a small number of intelligent people who've heard those accusations who looked at what I say about vivisection and right away they figure out that I am NOT probe of a session I would love to abolish of a session however like the abolition of cigarettes it's going to be a long process unlike cigarettes unlike the wearing of leather the people who are engaged in vivisection in animal research in the exploitation of animals and laboratories genuinely believe they're making the world a better place rightly or wrongly and some of them are right some of the time some of them are wrong some of the time etc but if you walk down the street and you decide to verbally insult haha i was kidding use another verb let's stay with the insult if you as a vegan decide to walk down the street and start insulting people who wear leather because you know we regard this as immoral do you think you're going to run into even a single person wearing leather who would tell you hey I'm wearing this leather jacket cuz I'm trying to find the cure for cancer do you think you talked to a woman wearing high leather boots who would tell you hey by wearing these leather boots I'm making the world a better place I'm wearing these leather boots for the children for the future I'm wearing these leather boots to produce vaccines medicines cures for terminal illnesses hey if your if your grandmother needed these leather boots to save her life would you refuse her the right to wear these leather boots because they're not vegan the level of hostility that vegans have towards the use of animals in medical research the use of animals not just in researching medicines but actually producing medicines is surreal now as I said in the earlier video i have my own sentiments on this matter you there's a issue of passion / reason here in the video a link below with wildlife in the title I say passionate look when I see photographs of even the horseshoe crab being in a laboratory being exploited being killed slowly to to produce medicines that we have no other way to produce it's deeply horrifying to me um you know and even my more sort of moderate videos I'm talking about the pros and cons these issues in a modern way you'll notice I use words like you know abomination I do not refer to the torturing animals and laboratories in a value neutral way I refer to it as something deeply disturbing immoral etc to me however we have to be able to recognize that this is this is not something merely motivated by greed the way that perhaps slavery was obvious as a simplification it's not merely motivated by speciesism in a parallel to racism it's not merely motivated by vanity in the way that wearing leather is it's definitely not motivated by addiction in the way that smoking cigarettes is and you know as a sighted we failed to get rid of cigarette smoking even though nobody smoking cigarettes in order to cure cancer so you know it is a bit bizarre but the question is what does it mean to be anti-vivisection in veganism in the 21st century some of you who are older will know immediately what it is I'm about to be warning about in this video some of you who are younger will not understand at all what it is implicitly that people like durianrider are alluding to and getting at when they denounce me in claiming that I'm that I'm prova the session because I'm willing to take a sort of nuanced and complex view of these issues of one video called vivisection in the next 10 years where I'm asking look it's easy for us to make extreme statements about how we want to get rid of all the laboratories want to get rid of all the kids okay how long you gonna live what's gonna happen next 10 years what's in the next 30 years can we ever get down to brass tacks can we ever get down to pragmatic you know models of activism of engagement of making the world a better place because I don't really want to hear it to be honest you I don't want to hear about how you're gonna liberate all the animals in labs because for one thing it's [ __ ] it's a haul of post it's just macho posturing in your part and on the other hand I'm actually interested in as i said earlier video i'm interested in winning i'm interested in setting up political struggles that i can win that can actually end in a victory such as passing a law passing a regulation creating a standard yes public education changing the culture those things are important to type a vivisection ultimately we're talking about government regulation period we are government regulation of labs etc and again keep wrestling I have my own biases in this in terms of how academic research works I have many many experiences even outside of making even for-profit research the way in which proposals are written I'm very much aware that while some percentage of exploitation of animals some percentage of vivisection can be justified in terms of the ends justifying the means or simply the total impossibility of finding a better substitute you know in some cases there's that there's a no an animal a non animal killing way to do the same work to do the same lab or to get the same chemicals but in some cases there are not so mentioned earlier as horrifying as the horseshoe crab example is right now medical science has no known substitute for it etc under the European Union guidelines all labs are supposed to look for alternatives they're supposed to prove that they've exhausted the possibility of using any better alternative before they can torture animals of course it's questionable whether or not that actually happens blah blah blah and there's also been a a movement in medical science last 10-15 years somewhat disturbing but we're thinking about as vegans there's been a move especially in Europe to try to use lower orders of animals already a human-centered notion but instead of torturing monkeys to death to ask well can we do the same lab work using shellfish can we instead torture some some clams to death I'm this kind of thing now this also when you actually start doing some research about it doing some thinking about it the the old-fashioned all animals are equal species as view of the world becomes very difficult to maintain do you actually think that a mouse is equal to a monkey do you actually think that shellfish are equal to rabbits this leads you down the path of ethical questions that are very difficult to answer and extremists almost by definition want to give you simple answers too complicated questions obviously a complete imbecile like durianrider just wants to defame me by saying that I'm Pro vivisection anyone who takes the time to to Google check that to come to my youtube channel put a sword vivisection it's going to find that no I do want to end vivisection I would love to but I'm willing to admit that this is a much much more difficult a nuanced self-contradictory situation that vegans are drawn into then for example how do we abolish leather leather should be the simplest thing for us to abolish and our attitudes towards people who wear leather may be completely contemptuous because leather offers no benefit in the sense that medical research does leather offers no benefit in the sense that the production of vaccines or medicines based on on expedition animals does and yet do we have any great success to show in our attempts to abolish leather you tell me why don't you name one country in the world where leather is illegal or where governments even have laws in place to gradually phase out the use of leather in the same sense that we're trying to phase out the use of nicotine the use of tobacco these of cigarettes any takers not even India not even Taiwan not even the countries that the strongest vegan movement speaking communities not even countries are the largest percentages of vegans and certainly not Israel right and we can leather we can get rid of leather tomorrow leather is perfectly substitutable there are other things we can substitute for leather instantly with no loss to ourselves okay what does it mean when my fellow vegans denounce me as being prova possession I think actually it's tremendously disturbing for the future of this movement let's take a look at the guy called Steve best professor Stephen best he used to be a famous name in veganism animal rights etc I think his web presence has gone pretty much silent since 2014 his blog hasn't been updated etc I think it started to go silent at the end of 2012 when he ran into a little bit of trouble I'm going to read from an article providing the link below from a science blog called respectful insolence it is an anonymously written blog the guys the guys handle is Iraq to fake name obviously so this is written from a scientists perspective a scientist who supports vivisection the exploitation of animals in the pursuit of scientific knowledge new medicines etc I began quote it's no secret that I have little but contempt for radical animal rights activists I make no apologies for this and quite frankly consider my contempt for them well justified based on their behavior and words be at their fetishes fetishization of violence against researchers ago I couldn't quite get that word out don't have a lot of practice saying that word there fetishization of violence against researchers who use animals they're threatening of students in order to frighten them away from careers in scientific research that might involve the use of annum rules for example Elena Rodriguez intimidating research by declaring their children not off limits are not just making threats of violence against the professor's but the children of the professor's trying to burn investigators houses down harassing researchers and in general behaving like criminals in their quest to stop all animal research period close quarters I just note there are links within the text I've just read if you guys want you can read along you can click below and see the text these are specific examples so he's not just vaguely saying that animal rights activists have tried to burn people's houses down or tried to harass people or threaten people's children he does have links to examples throughout the whole article I continue to read ah indeed most recently I couldn't help but feel the most satisfying sense of schadenfreude ax when Camille Moreno head loon at the animal rights blog negotiation is over dotnet was finally jailed for her activities overall niño and Iona goshi ation is over is a group that cleverly doesn't explicitly advocate violence but makes threats and tries it's best to intimidate other luminaries in the animal rights movement include Jerry Vlasic who embarrassingly to me is a surgeon who is known for his justifications for murdering researchers again there's a link basically from my perspective he exhorts with flaming screeds of hate-filled rhetoric well he maintains plausible deniability for his involvement in any crimes that might commit then there's Stephen best whose recent activities have revealed what a despicable piece of work he is particularly his hypocrisy Stephen best is a tenured professor of philosophy at the University of Texas El Paso known for his incendiary rhetoric for example about how he wants to make his enemies feel the fear is then a link to a YouTube video the YouTube video is on Stephen bests own YouTube channels this was not someone exposing him this was he posted this himself he recorded this he was proud of this he shared this he posted this himself that YouTube video is called is titled dr. Steven best colon every swear word who hurts animals is going to feel the fee and it is in day whether you call that endorsing terrorism or what the meaning of that is very clear so I'm going to obviously I'm not reading right now I'm pausing from the article I'm going to note I myself have spent enough time universities talking to career professors about a vivisection that these are issues that touch my life in a way that it may not touch all of yours I have spoken repeatedly to professors of Buddhism professors of Buddhist philosophy but why they didn't lift a finger about animal rights on campus but the questions of basically how the exploitation of animals in laboratories on their own campus is governed that includes you know the famous professor emeritus Richard Gombrich I've spoken to both Buddhist professors who were famous and not famous at universities that were famous universities that were not famous gombrich is at Oxford England one very memorable example was actually a university and hospital in Taiwan famous their famous to me they're famous if you care about Buddhism this in hualien Taiwan they have both the university and a hospital that are obviously paid for ultimately by donations from from Buddhists Buddhist people and yet at this Buddhist hospital whether you know they're literally they're paintings of the Buddha up all the food i think is vegan it's at least vegetarian maybe they have some dairy on hospital you know the hospital food is in principle vegan or vegetarian there are in terms of their ethics there's supposedly a Buddhist organization and yet nevertheless they had vivisection of animals they had animal exploiting animal killing research on that university campus on that medical campus on that on that University property to me that's baffling I did talk to people about it and uh I and my wife who's now my ex-wife I'm divorced case entered my ex-wife looked into articles on articles that are quotations and interviews with the professors so you can be in some especially bizarre situations and trying to address these questions of the ethics of animal research and exploitation within universities and I myself have done more of that than the average vegan because of the peculiar life I've lived in both be engaged with many many universities talking to so many professors and so many campuses and because I was engaged with Buddhist philosophy where it seems to me it's a no-brainer if you're a professor but its loss he talks about the importance of not killing a mosquito you know you may actually the lecture about the philosophy of not killing insects in Buddhism it's a big deal in Buddhism when I was a practicing Buddhist I tried very hard to avoid killing insects to avoid killing cockroaches and when I stopped being a Buddhist I changed I lost my faith you can see earlier YouTube videos on that too um but yeah I can remember working very hard to scoop out a cockroach and keep it alive and set it free that was inside my suitcase when I was in northern Laos in Southeast Asia used to really try my best sometimes the cockroaches would end up getting killed anyway but it was it was a struggle being vegan is still a struggle but I don't I don't kid myself with that stuff anymore I'm I've had to deal with mosquitoes bed to deal with bedbugs real people do real things and sometimes there's a real body count especially in the indian sex lives and the production of all fruit and vegetables kills insects production of all grains kills insects and again i have made videos in the past about this in contrast to some of the extreme rhetoric that vegans offer um but we continue my point is here steven best although as your vote to hear he does do unethical and illegal things basically what he is trying to do is radicalize and reformed university campuses in reference to a vivisection exploitation of animals so it's kind of a movement within universities but what I ask you will just set this up now and keep reading do you really think that the effect of this type of intimidating violence anti-vivisection actions do you really think it impairs scientific research you really think it makes universities consider oh gee we better get rid of these people doing for example original research on cancer cancer therapy or do you think it makes the university's want to get rid of people like Steven vest does it make universities think forget it we don't want to have a course in animal rights we don't want to employ a professor career academic talking about veganism animal exploitation future about know that what do you think the real impact is there is a much bigger impact on us on vegans very real within academia I me know in society as a whole this also makes us look like lunatics but within academia very rapidly that's going to create a chill where people say look you can't give a tenured academic post to some guy who lectures about veganism animal rights forget it you can't give a position at a university to someone who cares passionately about ecology and you cease veganism as one aspect of ecological progress or even legal and moral part you can't do that it'll be a disaster just look at this guy Steven best just look at these legal cases attached you just look at that's a big chill that's a major chilling effect um the impact for the cancer researcher is they're doing anything like legitimate research it's not it's not a chill that way and I'm sorry I have so much to say about this I have read of course examples of again I don't wanna sell the stuff so much because I have earlier videos on the topic i have read examples of animal exploiting research that could not have possibly discovered anything legitimate with the nature of the research proposal to begin with was deeply flawed the way the lab report destructors deeply flawed where they were really killing animals for no reason that's a huge ethical issue and the question of how we can prevent that you know before the lab takes place or before the funding is granted or what have you i think it's a tremendous question for political science and i myself have been involved in projects not none of them involving scientific research in this sense you know in the social sciences political science social researching social problems etc but there are situations where research have done both private sector and academic what have you you're sitting around with people it's like oh great you know we have to get we have to get eight funding proposals written by the deadline and the deadline is on tuesday so we have like two proposals that are really good but we're afraid we won't get the funding to do this research so quick we have only a couple days let's come up with six new research proposals that's one of the reasons why some of these some of these labs are so ridiculous sometimes just to keep up their budget just to keep the the program rolling uh you know people I remember one project on I was asking you know people are up why is the proposal so bad why is the research proposal so so we're relevant to the project and someone took me aside and a minute to me they only had a couple of hours to write this research proposal again some deadlines you know putting in a bid to get research funding so they took a proposal for a totally different project deleted a few of the keywords replaced them with other keywords and then put this thing before the deadline I've seen stuff that time when I was at Cambridge University I remember me and my wife now my ex-wife talking to this one guy he didn't realize the deadline for research research proposals for specific type of research was that day so he had like two hours to come with a proposal we verbally were giving him advice then he went away and did the paperwork and so on he got the money to you know the real world of academic research funding proposals the structure of how projects are selected and approved is something I do have personal experience with even though I'm not at all in the medical of not pure medical sciences or anything like that I'm not not involved in anything that ever involved torturing animals to death but it is very easy for me imagine how it is that terrible projects that exploit animals for no reason do get money and do end up killing animals again and again you can find me read examples of that however as as easy as it would be for me to believe as politically convenient as it would be for me to believe or pretend that absolutely a hundred percent of animal research is in that sense exploiting animals for no good reason have no meaningful findings are not producing medicines it would be the most convenient thing in the world for me to adopt that posture and tell you this is a hundred percent redundant this is a hundred percent useless meaningless these animals be torture for no reason the way that the production of leather is a hundred percent obsolete and redundant I would love to be able to say it's you but that would be a lie and I am NOT here to preach a religion that's based on a lie i'm not here to support a political movements based on the line i'm interested in the truth even if that truth is complex and self contradictory alright we continue quote Steve best was also called co-founder of the North American animal liberation press office and is widely known for his violence is legitimate even preferred methods a method of achieving total animal liberation the concept behind his views is extensional self-defense whereby best and his fellow travelers have decided they're completely justified in using violence to achieve their aims or preferably in inducing various dupes to commit whatever crime it takes to stop animal research close quote I just note in Steven vests defense he claims that he only supports crimes against property not crimes against people that is debatable I have an earlier video also in which I directly skewer this idea that you can separate crimes against property from crimes against people you can see my critique of Gary pardon me Gary Yourofsky on that talking about liberation front and have at least one video also talk about Steven best directly so best does have a counter-argument to these points I personally do not find the counter argument convincing and this scientist is obviously summering up from his uh he's summing it up from his perspective which is of course unflattering to Steve best I continue to read quote consistent with the concept of extensional self-defense and speeches like the one above best used to be affiliated with niño in a big way being a frequent contributor to its blog as recently as last year and having apparently actively assisted Marino and her wandering band of animal rights thugs in a more material way as described at death and taxes last year's again there's a link these are all very see links to audio recordings articles youtube videos etc throughout the article I continue basically best appears to have allowed niño to use one of his paypal accounts to collect donations to be used as a bounty for snitches willing to provide the addresses phone numbers and personal information of students and professors whose research used animals whom niño would target for harassment Moreno and best seemed to be the best of buddies comrades-in-arms and the eternal struggle to harass and frightened vivisectors until they gave up animal research etc close quote um you see you tell me why why would this be justifiable for vegans when they're harassing threatening and intimidating scientists research scientists at their homes research night is and their children apparently at their um when those research scientists believe rightly or wrongly they're finding the cure to cancer they're making the world a better place this sporting the progress of science why why is it that vegans would not do this against someone who simply chooses to wear leather leather isn't going to find the cure for cancer leather is going to make the world a better place this is obviously just a ludicrous radical power trip you know based on the idea that these people can become legends legends in their own mind can become influential and important you know by using these immoral unethical unsympathetic dead-ended tactics that you know will make it impossible for you to ever advocate for real legal reform and social change yah you're destroying your own opportunity to participate in electoral democracy you're destroying the opportunity to make real political change in embracing phony political change that totally discredit you and described as meals or discredits all of us discredits all vegans terrible negative side effects earthing but you know look you're not living in Egypt you're not living in China this is in the United States of America and Steve best you have the easiest life imaginable you're paid to grade papers and university you you have a home you have stability you have a steady income as a tenured professor and this is the best way you can think of to make a better place you want to pay people to snitch on where research scientists homes are so you can go there and threaten them and sickening it's sickening and it's stupid and it's counterproductive and if this is what it means to be anti-vivisection I'm Ivanoff said I am NOT pro vivisection but all you guys if anyone is stupid enough to believe durianrider when he says that I'm pro vivisection you take a good hard look at who it is in the vegan movement who identifies as anti-vivisection you take a look at what that really means what it means right now this article's 2012 okay there's a huge shadow hanging over us and if your whole life is on youtube if you don't deal with real world animal rights conferences animal rights activists you may not be aware of it you may not have had to deal with it but yes there's a huge shadow hanging over us that stems from from people like this from the legacy of this this kind of activism this type of overtly criminal overtly violent activism and with it this article continues I won't read it all so quote not anymore it would appear late last month in a delicious twist of fate Stephen best and camille moreno had a bit of a falling out the entertaining the ironic thing about this whole kerfuffle between the two is that when his own preferred in methods of intimidation and threats were turned against him suddenly bests bravado and rhetoric were no longer quite so bold suddenly his proclamations of having no fear were not quite so full-throated in fact they were non-existent whereas best is known for encouraging violent action on his website publishing on his website the names photos and addresses of the scientists he targets and speaking internationally but his justifications for extremism up to and including violence in the service of animal rights activism when such tactics were turned against him he did not like it not one little bit so there are quotations here pertaining to I'm pausing the article I'm going to skip some stuff pertaining to a restraining order that Steve best then had issued against some of his fellow animal rights activists some of the people who had been his colleagues in his overtly violent form of activism when there was some dispute and they turned on him he did indeed run to the cops to try to get protection now again my research on politics relevant to this meckstroth University role to this but also my research related to cults you know religious phenomenon religious cults very often when people start a cult what they're doing whether or not they realize it is creating a crossroads that attracts a certain type of person yeah it's like you know if you if you're trying to recruit the most violent members of other biker gangs to start your own biker game that's openly what you're trying to do you don't want average members of biker gangs you want the most violent members of biker gangs um guess what kind of problems you have including problems of people question your leadership like so you know Steve best gets questioned by people who he is himself been leading but there people who you know he chose them and they chose him because they want to be part of the most extreme most violent aspect of animal rights activists and they wanted to be in this very uncompromising and extreme milia so you know you create a crossroads to attract and reward the attention of a certain type of people then you see what you get very often cults that do not openly endorse you know mass murder end up involved in mass murder for the same reason these same set of patterns ever peterlee warned again if you if you look at the history of any extreme political movement people who are even members of the IRA the Irish independence movement Irish pokin army people members the IRA most of the time what they were afraid of was being murdered by other members of the IRA the use of torture within the IRA the use of torture on its own members persecution etc is extreme and again many historical communist movement communist that even tiny ones I research on one of the Communist moons within Japan the Red Army Faction Japan you know mostly young university educated people in Japan informed a communist group and you know they start murdering each other immediately they start using you know violence and torture and so on against one another no they did kill some other people too that that group was violent many ways but this is certainly a pattern you can see in under many different headings in political science and in the the study of religion and honestly veganism the 21st century shares some elements of both it shares some elements of being an extremist political movement and some elements of being a cult-like religious movement and I can admit it and I can I can address those problems because I want to learn from the past I want to learn from history I don't want to repeat the mistakes of us really want to repeat the mistakes from 2012 or 2001 much less from the last the last century anyway i guess i will stop reading this article here yeah i mean various other ironies of steve bests mode of trying to intimidate western academia into abolishing the V session based research are reflected on and this are the author the anonymous author of this article obviously is a long history of following the particular careers of the when two activists who are involved in this story so look ultimately this video like my channel is about me I did not make this channel seeking a mass audience I certainly never expected the adulation or support of thousands of people or tens of thousands of people and it's a good thing that's not what I'm looking for because that's that's not what I'm going to get you know I've said many times this is not intro to Buddhism this is not a little slip there it's also down into the bosom this is not in short of veganism this is not veganism 101 this channel is really to provide meaningful discussions and hopefully eventually to instigate some meaningful organization and activism for people who are already advanced in veganism people who have already heard it all before and some of you watching this video have heard this all before but for some of you it's really new it's a new set of considerations we have a problem with violence within veganism we have a problem Duras durianrider directly threatened me with violence and trying to kick me out of Thailand or send me to jail or whatever and him defaming me and claiming them white beard service that you guys already know that we have a problem with literally thousands of vegans claiming that I secretly work for the CIA that I'm part of some conspiracy on the basis of the notion that I'm pro vivisection that I'm a fake vegan because I'm allegedly pro vivisection that's a problem that reflects many dark elements of human nature within veganism that are going to be very very hard for us to overcome now I don't accept accept someone as vegan if they wear leather boots I don't I think there is a grounds to in effect kick someone out of your your group of vegans if you have some ways willingly buying and wearing leather and calling themselves vegan you say look I'm sorry we got rules you can't be part of the club if you don't really spend the time and make the effort to phase out leather in your life this is this is not negotiable I would never kick someone out of the club because they rely on a medicine that was produced by research exploiting animals I would never do that the basic concept of veganism was as you guys know to do what's possible and practical I would never kick someone out because their grandmother is getting treatment for cancer or just ridiculous all the contradictions letting you because they've taken vaccines anti-venom is another one okay so you're bitten by a poisonous snake any venom that's you know based on the exploitation of animals you know we've got to have the maturity to recognize the complexities of the situation we're in presently but also the paradox were drawn into if we demand immediate change if we make it like negotiation is over like the like the like the name of this ridiculous group implies it's a total paradox as a tiny minority a despised minority politically that you demand either we have total social change meeting our ethical standards now or nothing I would say the exact opposite of negotiation is over it's not the case at all the negotiations over negotiation has not even begun negotiation has not even begun yet we're not in a negotiating position we're nobody we're nothing we're just an idea on the internet and a couple of crummy do nothing organizations none of which is even as big as pettah you know none of which is as big as the Catholic Church none of which is as influential as the Communist Party of China even some other communist parties in Europe you know none of none of which is as big or influential as the Green Party in Germany you know some countries in Europe have a very successful Green Party's versus luck illogical movements we're really nobody and nothing and you want to say negotiation is over and you're going to move straight to to violent revolution message it's not a joke sadly it's it's it's deadly serious and it's ruining people's lives and has tremendously negative impacts around the world even for vegans like me