Vegans: Friends & Foes. (Durianrider & Joe Best)

27 May 2020 [link youtube]


Why the movement doesn't move. #vegan #vegans #veganism


Youtube Automatic Transcription

hey guys uh look I do not create
conflicts with other youtubers just for the sake of creating conflicts I have repeatedly reached out to other youtubers in friendship even when they've really harmed me in the past one of the most ridiculous examples being Joe best I was still reaching out to Joe best positively and offering to do a Skype conversation with him you know a podcast on my channel way off I mean he had crossed the line with me six times seven times he had really defamed me several times on the Internet seriously and needlessly I mean Joe best is a [ __ ] terrible human being but still I was reaching out to him positively and cooperatively way after we reached the point of diminishing returns I'm just recording the audio so that I find that people really are more relaxed and you know you can look at your notes you don't feel like you have to keep eye contact with the camera or anything so I'm only gonna record the audio and I told you before an email if there's anything you regret saying like you know you say oh I shouldn't have said that about my boss at work or something I do I'm willing to delete anything Google most people right now are you know what I need headphones I had this problem cool cool do it do it that's it the other advantage of not not recording the video is that you know I've got headphones on can't hear myself though but that's fun so listen the question is this and and it's it's it's the main topic right now people are interested in where's the money or the $6,500 all of it has gone to the law firm with the only exception being the money that went into the cost of the transfer itself which you know I talked about those boring details and the couple people who got and the couple people who got their refunds so Joe that's it the the actual legal process is real if you want to I can send you a link to an article that explains to you what the legal process is in Thailand it's extremely boring that article it's an actual huh so six and a half thousand dollars to a Thai law firm correct yeah because all I'm doing is pressing criminal charges it's not a lawsuit yeah well I didn't go through it at the end but when I was prosecuting the girls I was going after them they wanted my law firm wanted like it was someone like 3,000 Bart's or like you know hundred bucks an hour they said it would set in two hours to prepare the case and so Joe so Joe how did that work out for you because I felt that it was it was too mean for what they just felt like it was too much I was angry at the time so I I wanted to do something I went to the solicitors but it wasn't a lot of money it was no six and half thousand dollars man I could have put them all in there whatever you know it wasn't sure till anything I hope you never have to go through and going through Joe but Joe what I'm going through involves it's an international law firm it's an international case involves transit it involves translation it involves travel for the lawyer there are real costs so Joe if you think Joe if you Joe Joe let me just says if you think I got a bad deal you're entitled to your opinion I think I got a perfectly good deal and uh many people including you used to complain that I wasn't paying enough that it was impossible that my court case was legit because this wasn't enough money yeah so you know say what you want to say in Thailand it's much much cheaper so let me ask you this so Joe Joe let me ask you what's what's your experience with what the cost is for kids like this have you ever looked at international information guys cost me about ten thousand kill it's no no Joe your case is totally unrelated it's totally how was the carnival so an international case dealing with defamation dealing with translating like YouTube videos into Thai those cost okay okay okay so that's interesting okay haha the girls may into Thai and they said that I could if I wanted to I could hire a student to do it so that could be quite cheap and they said I got a pair of police officer which is the funny part I've got a pair police officer ten thousand bar to go and arrest them at the hotel each one Joe Joe your case you whatever like that sounds dodgy as hell I've got okay well you've just reported to me compared to the law firm of doe if that really sounds dodgy as hell if these are actual concerns you have why don't you ask me you know we could say that about any these people like they go straight to defaming you publicly and a lot of the defamation whether it's Jobeth or Jeff Nelson or guy like Jack green and wouldn't talk about a second here they start by saying well I just don't understand why blank and then they go on to defame you so like in Jeff Nelson's case it was well I don't understand why you weren't chiangmai anyway well Jeff you didn't see any of my videos explaining that because the facts are out there if you were interested you never asked me you never sent me an email you never talked to me you've just used this as a pretext to attack and defame me in mostly situations you ultimately can't cooperate with somebody unless they want to cooperate with you there's no way that I can honestly say it is impossible to cooperate with Joe best I've tried come on you must you must be able to reflect June rather came into Thailand and you said he's absolutely going to be arrested what happened no that's not what I said if you listen to my videos I talk to you exactly what's happening I pay my lawyer my lawyer goes to court and gives the papers to the prosecution service she's equivalent to your Crown Prosecution Service in England and what I did not realize is just how long and slow the process is after that now Joe let me ask you a very simple comparison if you think the timeline of my case is very slow I'll name another case that you also know is real you know this you know the people you know Hannah Chloe's case is real yeah so why she's known but Joe let me ask you very quickly why what if you think the amount of time my case is taken is long why is Hannah Chloe's case taking even more time because she didn't have banking delays for me a big the biggest part of the life of me was the bank transfer then finally I paid the lawyer and the process started in Thailand so Hannah Hannah didn't have that delay well uh well okay in terms of the bank when the bank transfer is done I'm sorry you can check my youtube if you want the exact date because I made a video when the transfer went through but I forget know what it's more than a month since I paid the lawyer yeah I'm not gonna put this on my channel yeah yeah but what okay but this but this is recorded yeah but but Joe right yeah I understand right okay but it's also but hope this is the start of a more positive more positive assurance but as I say Hannah Chloe she has been through a similar legal process and her started earlier cuz unlike me she didn't have to collect money from generosity dorg I didn't have to deal with a bank transfer to China that failed you know those were those like two months or more of delay was just getting the money of the lawyer and Hanna's case she hasn't been arrested yet by Hanna's case either but she's going through a similar process so good well let let me ask you person what do you think Hanna's cases fake or no okay well I'll tell you my opinion I don't think her case is fake I don't think Mikey's is fake but as I've said on my channel many many times all you can do in this life is decide to do the right thing for the right reasons and then you see what their concern it is totally possible Jo that my lawyer would come back to me and say look we prepared everything we presented to the judge and the judge decided to throw it out or the prosecution service said no but Jo Jo let me finish and Jo was a was I in was I in mid-sentence or not jo you know this in England Crown Prosecution Service if you give if the Crown prosecutor is they have the right to decide whether or not to press charges whether or not and whether or not it's in the public interest you know this are you saying that they can come back to you and they can say that there is no case and then the money's gone yes like any other legal system in the world because I pay to present my case to a judge and to ask the Thai government to do justice I don't run the Thai government so Jo if you did this in England if you paid a solicitor to speak on your behalf to plead your case do the Crown Prosecution Service saying my client needs justice you pay your lawyer to plead your case and you do not decide what the Crown Prosecution Service does so on some level Joe you're not looking me you're not leaving my camera on your company Joe I'm not gonna discuss these details even hourly basis made Joe how's Joe okay Joe Joe Joe how's that worked out for you your case went nowhere I've heard you I've heard you say but you I've heard you talk on YouTube about how sad and disappoint you were with the experience you had when you went to the police in Thailand and when you dealt with you ever I've heard you on YouTube talking about what happened I made you feel so if you think I got ripped off fine Joe Joe Joe Joe yeah I heard what you said Joe what University agree do anything I mean you've never studied the law have you okay I've studied political science Joe Joe Joe Joe my first poem is in political science what's your diploma what do you say I know used to work in finance you have a degree in economics I'm just asking a question why does it matter what my contract with law firm is whether it's hourly or lump sum because if you tell me how much you're paying I can work at how many hours you've brought up Joe did I Joe did I Joe did I ask for your help are you are you Joe are you trying to help me so what are you trying to do okay so Joe where did you study where'd you go University Quincy University don't steal investments elite University I went to Penn State what diplomas did you get at Leeds what the climate are getting it or what more red dye though those places what do you say architect to engineering I never do that about you so you said your architecture that's gonna mess with I'm very surprised because I've never I've never heard you mention that Jim that's interesting I'm getting to know you so Joe do you have any experience that would lead you to be competent to estimate how much a case like this would cost in Thailand you have any experience education I don't have any experience in terms of working out how much you've spent so why why did you offer to do that so why are you trying to do that so you think so you think you can estimate how much money I spent on this case Joe Joe Joe do it Joe Joe here's okay Joe here's my courage you Joe why don't you go ahead and do that why don't you Joe Joe why don't you go ahead and talk to a series of law firms in talent which is what I did and get different estimates okay Joe I'm answering your question Joe if you think no I'm not Joe I've answered your questions completely unfamiliar directly Joe I take it you have not done what I did which is you talked to several law firms about what services they offer what present you can do that and if if you got wonderful better estimates that's interesting I be endorsed still that you know what I wish I could tell you that Joe best was an exception to the rule I think the reality is somebody like Joe best is the rule and I want to be clear on this you know Joe best does not hate me or he doesn't hate me all the time put it that way Joe best has it several points got worked up like in his own imagination has built up the image of me as a terrible person and has come online and denounced me and almost every single time he regrets it soon thereafter and he stops hating me and sometimes he actually unlist the videos he deletes the videos this kind of thing you know what I mean so and he's not being fake either he's being sincere he's also just stupid like Joe best at one point he built up this crazy delusion in his mind that I was an immoral and evil person because he felt I was lying on my patreon page the call for donations of the patreon page and you know he's just so stupid he worked up in his imagination this idea you know he's taking his assumptions about what I said and what it meant and how it was lying to my audience and then attacking me for that and at another point I mean just just as stupid or stupid or he was walking up in his mind the notion that I was lying about what happened with the actual financial transfer really boring details but why it was for at least two months I think it was two months or three months I was delayed in paying my lawyers some of you guys remember that some of you don't because he's completely boring details about trying to send a bank and international bank transfer from the United States to mainland China and then from China to Thailand look Joe right now do you think you sound clever or stupid what do you know about the process okay well Joe Joe Ike Joe Joe I care Joe Joe I care and I'm telling you you sound stupid Joe Joe why don't you tell me you never talking before I'll a full time because I find this hilarious so Joe why don't you tell me with your fabulous education in architecture why don't you tell me what I don't understand about the tight legal system because you think you understand it better than I do which is entirely possible you talked about translation yeah that's that's part of it right do not need to see any videos what videos that you're in rather may need to be translating your what kind of question that you already know he made videos defaming me and threatening me you know this no you couldn't make videos threatening you you made a Facebook post threatening you would you made into a video Joe Joe Joe Joe do you really want to debate that with me whether or not during Ryder to feed me or threaten me in videos really okay so Joe Joe your claim is Joe Joe is your claim the during Ryder has never defamed me or threatened me in a video is that really what you're saying Joe Joe Joe I think I've been very patient with your questions that are both malicious and not trying to help me and [ __ ] okay Joe Joe I'm not gonna tell you Joe I'm not gonna tell you any further details about the case oh oh did I ask for it what are you gonna suggest Joe oh here's some really useful advice from Joe best is it about architecture that Noah is about hypnosis is it about how to seduce Haney Armenia what's it gonna be about Joe what are you gonna tell me oh I wouldn't do a podcast with you at this stage it's not gonna happen I think I'd rather you get this all cleared up because it just doesn't doesn't ring true to me completely Mike Mike I'm Tommy thinks that you cannot be lying you must be telling the truth who would who would do such a horrible thing and in permits like it just doesn't add up so I think the best thing okay so Joe your premise is that you do not believe the case is legitimate because it is too expensive so that's I can respect that but that is your that is your premise things don't seem to add up it doesn't seem to add up that you there anyone oh okay oh okay well Joe let me Joe yeah okay Joe but that's that's easy answer but sure I can ask the question sure okay okay okay right Joe right I understand Joe I understand I understand Joe completely yes Joe Joe Joe I completely sent Joe I can play understand so let me ask it so Joe let me let me ask the question it's a very easy question one of the reasons why you would pay a retainer or a lump sum is because I don't live in Chiangmai I live in Kunming China so for me to send many small bank transfers would be extremely difficult or impossible so you are correct Noba Joe Joe okay bye Joe Joe yeah Joe Joe Joe Joe I'm answering your question one I needed to raise money through donations which I did too I needed to send it basically in one transfer or it could have been two but I can't send a transfer every month I can't do that from like you said what you two are gonna be saying Joe do you have any Joe Joe do you have any experience dealing with China the Chinese banking system because like the other people who do people might I do but for me so but you talk about a transfer from Canada to China to Chiang Mai I wanted that Pujo Joe stop why don't you just pause Mary Joe I have answered your question you asked Joe Joe Joe you asked a totally reasonable question why would anyone prefer to send one payment rather than many small payments and Joe I've given you a very clear answer one because the money is raised to a fundraiser so you know you gather that money together and the company sends to me and to because it is very difficult for me to do complex like every two weeks or every month banking between kunming and Chiang Mai and again my main banking on is in Canada course a bank an international bank transfer from the United States to mainland China and then from China to Thailand it's not hard to see how you could have delays in there and the vast majority of the delay part of it was [ __ ] up on my bank in China but it was mostly the corporation in the United States by the way that screwed up most of the fault goes to the website itself the American company that owns this website that I did the the fundraising on so anyway it's like this is not rocket science but in his mind he got some false assumptions and then he gets stuck into attacking me and then just as soon afterwards he decides that I'm a quite alright bloke and he doesn't hate me at all but those brief periods of time in which he was denouncing me and her hanging me on the internet even if he deletes the videos later because in some cases I know he went back and unlisted videos or deleted videos I know that in some cases your best I don't even check his channel I don't know how many of his videos you know defaming me are still up and how am I he deleted for me I really really don't but the problem is whether you're talking about my contemporaries on YouTube as a whole you know many people over lump return or unity was talking about one guy like Joe best over a long period of time the moments in which those people hate me and defame me and denounced me those are the loudest moments those are the moments that get the most attention those are the moments that endure in the mind's eye of the audience those are the moments that really form the perception of Who I am Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe have I lived and worked in Thailand yes have I lived and worked in Hong Kong yes have I lived and worked in Taiwan yes okay I have all of that experience okay so Joe Joe Joe why can't you in a Joe I just Joe Joe no no it's a preference of course it's possible every time I would send money between well you know that so you work in banking what percentage of the value disappears every time I send money between Canada and China we estimate transfer mails no okay Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe I know Joe you're a banker no why don't you ask the question show what percentage of the value of money disappears with each transfer when you're converting so I'd be converting US dollars to Canadian dollars one transfer than Canadian dollars to Chinese renminbi then Chinese renminbi to Thai Baht what percentage of the value of the money disappears it is more than 10% with those transfers okay Joe you think so you get into thousands of dollars you want to give up 10% I wait wait a minute Joe Joe did you wait a minute you are telling me honestly used to work in banking and you actually you actually do not think the for a private system because I'm not I'm not an institutional user you think it's insignificant for me to have to waste my time going to a Chinese bank handling multiple transactions per month and losing a significant percentage of the money you think that's insignificant Joe I don't believe you ever worked in banking Joe I don't believe you ever worked in banking if you are gonna sit here and you're gonna tell me you don't see that it would be better for me as a customer to pay a retainer rather than to pay a series of installments you know so Joe why Whaley wait Joe why why would that be hard future city if you have a background in banking you can't understand so doing a multiple international I really think you have never worked in banking Joe okay Joe send me Joe okay Joe let me ask on your degree is in architecture how what job did he do at Goldman Sachs what was your job there why don't you send me some receipts because III nothing you have ever said suggests to me of a kind of China and yo Joe what what was your job at Goldman Sachs and why can't you ever show some receipts that nothing you've ever said suggests you have a background in economics or finance Joe what was your mop the floor at Goldman Sachs did you do architecture Coleman sacks there are a lot of different jobs at Goldman Sachs Joe Joe I want to know what job did you ever do at Goldman Sachs Joe it's a logical Joe I spent a lot of time answering your questions you've answered one of my questions was what did you study University what okay you want the floors to Goldman Sachs with your degree in architecture what was the job you got Goldman Sachs okay Joe why why why can't you dodge the answer question why why would be hard to believe that for me in this circumstance yes it is better for me to pay a retainer and one bank transfer rather than handling ten bankers and you already know the first but the first the first bank transfer the first bank transfer I handled yeah prosecution said do you get your money back sure Joe Joe uh to be honest I have never even asked my lawyer that because my lawyer is completely confident whether it's [ __ ] or not that he will succeed but Joe I could ask my lawyer I doubt it but hey Thailand is rough but I've never even discussed it with Miller okay let's see how that unfolds all right listen I gotta run [Laughter] what a piece of [ __ ] you our man but look what so yeah Joe well I came here I came here to have a positive interview with you because partly I'm just gonna congratulate you with the improvements you made your channel I was just kind of a totally polished discussion to the fact that you used to for me I just want to see this thing progressed because you know it's such a cloudy area let's let's see how this come this comes out I just have some suspicions about this whole process okay so okay so Joe every every single question you've asked I have answered yep of all sure Joe Joe Joe I agree with you Joe I agree with you and I've also answered that question there is a real reason where there are two reasons why I didn't show receipts one is like everything else during Ryder will say it's fake and many people's it which is fine they're all I said I know but geomancer aggression and numbered Joe number two is Joe I am encouraging during a rider to believe it's fake because that is in my legal interest it is in my legal interest that he continues to believe it's a fake case Joe I'm happy that durianrider believes the case is fake I've explained that you repeatedly right now that is in my legal interest so how yeah uh Joe you're never gonna record another podcast me you're never gonna get my chance Joe you you've wrote Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe you wronged me seriously you defamed me serious and the internet and you sent me a one-sentence apology Joe I answered every single one of your questions Joe and you've dodged mine as simple as they were Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe okay Joe okay tell me when you're done Joe tell me what you done so you're gonna make it you're gonna rants whatever person tell me we're done I'm turning off the sound you tell me when you're done okay the moments in which those people hate me and defame me and denounce me those are the loudest moments those are the moments that get the most attention those are the moments that endure in the mind's eye of the audience those are the moments that really form the perception of Who I am and not the moments when later in Joe best case this is genuinely the case not the moments when later Joe best calmed down and I took the time to talk to him and reason through what his misconception was the stuff is all boring whether it was Joe best or Jeff Nelson like Jeff Nelson I actually explained to him why I was in Chiangmai at that time what was going on I gave him all this information and he had to admit I was on the level he was like yeah you know okay right this makes sense even uh you know close close from plant-based news at one point he has some crazy suspicions about me probably because I was defamed by some other people in England I can guess who they are some of the other vegan youtubers there I mean you know I did have to kind of talk through Klaus you know none of this stuff is true and he you know he got it close is not is not that dumb I'm you know somebody like Joe best is really too stupid to put together I think Klaus is a relatively sharp relatively you know earnest and hard-working guy so close put the pieces together but look those moments of anger and defamation directed towards me even if they're fleeting even if the people putting on the performance on YouTube do not really believe those things themselves or even if they very soon lose faith in what it is they're saying those moments really endear so you know here is my reply to Jack green I'm not gonna read his email I respect the privacy of private email sent to me but this is I could read my reply that I wrote I wrote em as follows thanks for taking the time Jack I've made it a policy to reach out in friendship to vegans even when they've kicked me in the teeth even when they've insulted me publicly whatever and I'd say that a very small percentage of those efforts have been rewarded however there are some positive examples vegan laughs Lauren Phoenix went from being an enemy to being a friend many others however have never responded Jo vegan new my court case with Dr was legit and saw paperwork I showed him paperwork and offered to provide explanation of the paperwork as he really couldn't understand the legal details etc but he would never adjust his public position on defaming me suggesting that I'm a scam artist etc look it's up to you but obviously it takes five seconds to unlist a video to change the video setting to private to delete it whatever and your video titled eyes'll Mazar destroys Jack green is still listed with only 152 views I note despite its salacious subject matter some things you can't compromise on I can't say that someone is 50% right if they're claiming I [ __ ] Julia Bohr and I can't say that someone is 50% right if they're claiming that I'm a scam artist or that I misled my donors in any way although it sounds reasonable when you say in this video the durianrider and I are both 50% right and 50% wrong that isn't the reality at all durianrider is a hundred percent wrong factually and morally and I'm zero percent wrong that sounds unreasonable but it's the reality of this situation durianrider lied and I told the truth durianrider made threats of violence against me and when I asked okay where do you want to meet he was a coward during write her back down or didn't follow through okay you in that video so Jack green you in that video call me a crybaby and a [ __ ] but the reality is that durianrider was a coward not me even though he was the one who made the threats of violence etc creating the conflict watching the TV news tends to train people to regard two sides of an argument as both being partly right but in this case one side of the argument really is a hundred percent wrong and amazingly even after you lost faith and durianrider you were still on the wrong side strange so look what's the moral of the story the vast majority of these people who create these problems for me who defame me and denounce me on the internet whether they do so with a sense of good humor or not whether they think of themselves as trolling or comedians or not the vast majority of them are people who are never gonna make a positive contribution towards veganism as a political movement but truth be told I don't know which one's any of these people can turn their lives around you know I really do not like even with somebody like derp vegan has to say about me I don't like what some somebody like Joe vegan had to say about me I don't like it but if you asked me to make some kind of hard and fast decision does derp vegan or Joe vegan do they have nothing to contribute to veganism as a movement in the next five years I'm slow I do not want to jump to that conclusion I am slow to jump to conclusions of that kind I don't want to make a snap judgment this person is worthless because today I think their content is too light-hearted or to vape it or doesn't take these things seriously when they should or what have you this guy Jack green he can do anything with the rest of his life he wants to I I really I mean you know his content currently I think is garbage but I would be very slow to jump to the conclusion even with somebody like him that he has nothing to contribute in the next in the next five years but yeah on that human level so someone in the comment section just joked that I'm the vegan police this is not about me policing other people's content this is just about me reaching out to other people positively and trying to cooperate and getting kicked in the teeth or disappointed again and again and again that's what it's about and you know I think that ultimately the challenge here it's not to suspend your judgement it's not it's not to treat everybody equally because you can't I can't regard all these people as equally having something positive offer to veganism etc etc you know I think the challenge is to be disappointed again and again and still reach out to people positively and try to cooperate try to collaborate despite that disappointment to have that negative experience with you know vague source whatever you want to call him Jeff Nelson to have that negative experience with Joe bass with Joe vegan to keep having those negative experiences and keep opening the door for someone else to disappoint you again keep inviting someone in the same way I invited you know Jack rain to come on still reach out positively even if it's you know one person out of a hundred who rewards that effort with some level of appreciation with some capacity to cooperate you know I mean it's it's depressing it's depressing to see I was looking yesterday at an especially awful video from a natural vegan because someone here in my comment session told me about it I wouldn't had a look and I thought oh my god am I gonna have to make a response video this impart of what makes it so depressing is you can look at the response from the audience and it let me just say some of not everything on natural vegan does is such garbage this was an especially horrible video from an ethical vegan perspective from from a natural vegan and I can recognize not just the majority of the audience the majority of the potential vegan audience here on YouTube is all supporting her supporting the direction she's taking with us that can be really really depressing it can be depressing to see the majority of people the majority of your potential audience an actual audience supporting durianrider when he's doing these terrible and immoral things or when he's just lying or supporting a natural vegan when she's at her kind of were stab of anti vegan anti-vegan pseudo veganism you know this kind of stuff but I mean the the type of optimism you need to have is just appreciating how few people you need to get organized to make that positive difference in the world right I said to somebody in Chiangmai face to face I said look I know this YouTube game is rough like at that time I probably said this the night we went out to karaoke you know went out to karaoke we're not sure if Durham Ryder is gonna show up and actually have a fistfight with me or if he's gonna send other people to beat me up or whatever you know I said look I know this YouTube thing is rough but be honest with yourself how many friends did you have the day you graduated from University did you have 10 friends did you have 50 if you if you really tell me you had 50 friends in real life when you graduated from university I'm gonna say you're a liar I don't believe that's true of anybody if you had 10 that's already that's really impressive going through this process that is so disappointing even when my expectations are low I mean obviously my expectations of Joe best are low my expectations of Jeff Nelson are low it goes without saying but still I mean you look at somebody like Jeff Nelson why can't he just be reasonable not even cooperate not even collaborate why can't he just be reasonable for the sake of veganism and the obviously positive role my channel plays in terms of talking about different elements of the United ISM you know why can't whether it's something like Jeff Nelson or somebody like Jack green why can't this person just be fair and reasonable with me even if we're not going to why do they have to be unreasonable and defamatory and vile why does it have to put me in this situation of conflict it's it's and hey unnatural vegan also as an example of that from my perspective but you know you're out there to win five people ten people maybe fifty people who can cooperate with you positively and that's gonna make all the difference in the world how many people do I need to cooperate with me to publish that Illustrated children's book not even fifty people you know I mean that's the prize that's the goal in terms of real world activism that you got a struggle for and yes it really can be depressing it really can be demoralizing whether it's an idiot like Josh Randall aka vegan revolution or vegan foot soldier or any of these other examples I've mentioned people who are just going out of their way to be unreasonable to insult you to defame you and all this stuff how many of them are there gonna be and how many times you can try to reach out to them positively to resolve that conflict and make some basis for cooperation how many times you go through that experience and and be disappointed ten times a hundred times I don't know but I mean that really is I mean it's an ineluctable part of making the positive connection with the five people the ten people are the 50 people who can in a positive way change your own life and who can in a positive way actually get organized form some kind of foundation take on real-world projects for the sake of the movement whether that's something as simple as getting that children's book Illustrated and published or something something much more ambitious you guys might have noticed I used this little catchphrase of mine you know a man without ambition is a man without Thanks when I was reproaching Ted Carr what is it that motivates people to set aside their differences to see the good in each other to reason with each other and just be reasonable it's not so much just the malleus hanging in in one part of the balance it's the lack of any ambition to do something positive yet on the other side of the balance and the other side of the scales because in any in any real world business venture in any real world political venture you have to put aside your differences and be reasonable and cooperate with people who have profound differences from you people whom you can see real ethical failings in and you do it for the good of the project you do it for the good of the business you do it for the good of the nation or public service you do it for the good of the movement you do it because you have some higher ambition that you want to pursue together despite everything that may be wrong with the both of you