After Jealousy: there's an alternative to feeling this way…

opposites attract so the saying goes
when Melissa and I first met she was an intensely jealous character and I was someone who had made YouTube videos talking about the extent to which I did not experience jealousy it was always a kind of oddity about me and it came out in the workplace it came out in the contrast from me and some of my blood relations and the family that really jealousy was something I understood kind of philosophically and in the abstract but I really did not feel and did not experience neither in terms of romance nor in terms of like owning expensive things nor in terms of intellectual conference I really didn't experience it and Melissa partly due to nurture and partly due to nature was really a tremendously jealous character at the time we first met when we first got together you had one grandmother who is famous within your own family for having been unbelievably jealous intensely jealous and it really tore her life apart to some extent toward the whole family's life apart so to give just one anecdote she was such a jealous and possessive character she would tear up the Sears catalog she would tear up catalogs and advertisements for clothes that came to no any image of a woman of any other woman like even if it's just an advertisement for pajamas or whatever she wouldn't let her husband see that no I I got to correct you it was just it was just the intimates the bras panties oh okay so she went she went through and tore out certain types of pajamas not others okay so he was allowed to read some pages the catalog that's the nurse she I thought you told me she wouldn't him watch TV right she didn't like didn't allow TV in the household because there were too many beautiful women on TV but still that she wasn't a selectively it wasn't just some channels or something but any TV at all all right so my point is whether it was genetic or whether it's something that you know resulted from Melissa's upbringing and teenage years I don't think its genetic I think it has to do with definitely your environment and what you're showing growing up that's your perspective teacher we once met up with like two of your aunts maybe one was an ottoman was a cousin we met I'm Cinderella today really said look this is some in the family and they they they could be wrong I'm not saying it's isn't but but that was interesting that I meant but at the same time you can say that maybe it was due to like her upbringing you know and then her son who's my uncle you know he also has dealt with pretty intense jealousy problems in his life and it destroyed his first marriage no I also I also don't know I've talked about that you to what extent its nurture versus nature of philosophy but like let's say I've worked on Chinese for five years I don't actually know how long have it sent Chinese I'd really have to sit and figure it out but when I get to five years if I meet someone who speaks Chinese way better than I do after five years I don't feel jealousy in the situations and sorry I've worked on other languages like lotion and Thai and so I really don't feel that way and when I go to the gym and I see someone who lifts more weight than me I don't in any of these contexts I really don't feel feel jealousy on the contrary I often feel an awareness of like whoo that guy worked really hard I don't want to do the hard work that guy did or even with money you know a lot of the time you know III look ok say someone who's become a lawyer or someone who's become a surgeon I don't want to do that I don't want to do those years in law school I've thought about it you know I mean like III tend to really have that awareness but I don't know if that's you know something I've really chosen if it's a result of some philosophy or if that's just who I am that I was gonna born in this way of really not feeling jealousy ok so let's hear this is so this is the very end of 2019 this is December 2019 and you were just mentioning the last video we recorded this was about 10 months ago wasn't quite one full year ago it was a very emotional video and that's yet to be shared with the public as of today but probably today we'll finally post that publicly the last discussion we had and Sarah's year so you really feel your perspective when this has changed yeah so last week you mentioned that we hadn't published that video at that last video so we went back and we listened to it and it was pretty emotional for me like looking back on it and you know you asked if you could publish it and I said what I would like to do is maybe publish it but at this time in the video that is published I want my perspective now to maybe do like a before and after just like how I've worked through it and during these ten months I've I've really been struggling with acne so that is a huge change and I've been separated from you you know we were together 24 hours a day for like two and a half years and then I went back to live with my parents in Michigan so I've been separated from you for I don't know about six months and now we're going to be continued I just want to note the acne so right now you're about three months into six months of treatment for the acne with accutane but the acne was a really extreme transformation for you we talked about this early in the relationship but we talked about I don't even remember the context that's come out but we used to talk about the extent to which you had pretty face privilege that you know we were living in China and there were kind of all these things being done for her all these jobs being offered to her just because she had a pretty face the guys believe me that's not my imagination really literally like recruiters walking up to her on the sidewalk and saying hey we want to hire you just on the basis of her pretty face you know so that was really an extreme transformation because then living and living in Taiwan with this extreme acne because three months ago six months ago the acne was really really extreme and people reacted to you not even like you were dying of cancer they reacted as if you were dying at the plague like some kind of plague they were afraid that gay people were really really taken aback which is different because like Americans don't feel that way about acne I think in your States and it's a person with acne it's just not that big a deal so that was definitely a different transformation your perspective is so long yeah yeah and it allowed me time to myself like time to actually be separated from you and during that time you again dumped me so you know I had the experience of being like really alone and you know I am gonna get kind of personal in this video but it's just because it's my story and now I'm actually more comfortable with it and I want to share it you know because I think it could help other people and I think if I'm thinking about who the audience is and if anybody else has seen the videos prior they might want to know like what the update is I think have I learned I mean won one of the titles for the video that you had was the cure for jealousy you know I kind of have I found what the cure for jealousy is I'm thinking the title of this video will be after jealousy the recovery no that's good so yeah it's given me time to actually be alone and realize that like you gotta you gotta be comfortable with yourself alone um and you can't rely on other people you know I I remember seeing some comments on some of the videos that you posted saying that like I had issues with codependency and I don't you know I don't know I mean this has given me time dependency there's there's been codependency and just dependency people codependency means you rely on each other dependency is just one person yeah right right so okay last week we watched the video back that you want published and I said okay I want to publish it but I want to have me reflecting on it and last night you know I was getting I got fired up by watching a video of yours no I was like inspired to to finally like okay I'm gonna I want to share this I want to talk about this but you were you were sleepy you were about to go to sleep so I was like okay I'm gonna I'm gonna stay up and I'll write this down so you know I have this all written down but you know I think I can yeah yeah so um you know what's really sad for me to look at that video partly because it was seeing how hopeless and how sad I was and how I felt like completely lost at that time just unable to like like it was a problem I felt I couldn't solve and that was always going to nag at me like for the rest of my life like you know I just felt like this is you know something I couldn't conquer this is jealousy a problem that I had and it was overwhelming to me and I could see just you know how sad I was and how that was affecting you and I remember from many many experiences with you where I was just overwhelmed by emotion how much that affected you and so when I watched the video back last week and you know I just got really sad thinking about how I how I ended things so wrong in this relationship and like me being separated from you in these past few months there passed like six months really has made me reflect and be like wow you know I I really missed my chance or you know really dropped the ball in so many situations so um yeah I'm gonna talk about I'm gonna talk about some some real stuff here it's gonna be real stuff about my life but I think it's worth sharing so you sure anecdotes with me about people from your past you know friends that you've had in the past and I think a phrase that gets repeated and I find is a common common theme of what you tell me about people you say um you could tell like when he was talking to me that he was [ __ ] up about it you know this is just like something that you say like that's a that's a phrase of yours so when I think about that in my experience you aren't somebody who really does small talk you're not somebody that if you have a conversation with them it won't be it'll be something that you'll forget right I think everybody is going to remember conversations that they have with you because they're very memorable right you don't just talk about surface things you tend to talk about tough topics that are deep topics that are maybe touchy like some touchy subjects that people aren't comfortable talking about like in terms of what's socially acceptable and I like I love that about you you know I think that's that's a wonderful aspect of your character that you're you're not somebody you're you're a real person you know you want to deal with real things and and I just think it will lead inevitably to if people get to know you on a deeper level that they're going to reveal to you what their insecurities are because at some point like there's going to be a touchy subject that comes up and they're gonna be like you know react in certain ways so you've shared various anecdotes with me where people were like you know you said that they've reacted in a certain way because they're sensitive about one topic so um yeah I mean it was sad watching this back and seeing how [ __ ] up I was about jealousy and how much this had devastated not only you you know but like me just and I'm and it really was a problem for me and it was a problem for you together for us as a couple and it really led to a lot of problems in the relationship so um you know the topic of jealousy you know I used to be like really messed up about talking about it but I think this is something that like I am comfortable talking about now because I'm able to say like I've thought about it and I've come to maybe what I think is the cure for at least my own form of jealousy and like my own issues like in this relationship so in this conversation that we had a couple days ago I was saying that when you get into a relationship with somebody you find that the person that you're with has had their share of experiences in life and they have their own kind of formulation of how to treat the other person and what I said to you is I think everybody is operating under different definitions of what love is so as children as we developed we kind of see different examples of love we see love between parents and children if we're lucky enough we get to see a functional relationship with our own parents we see a husband and wife they're functional but unfortunately I think a lot of us are not fortunate enough to see a functional healthy loving mutually caring and respectful relationship when we're growing up so in these fundamental years I think a lot of us don't actually get that input and we see what the relationship is with our parents as some kind of maybe something to avoid or something to idealize depending on you know how you're brought up and another thing is definitely in our modern modern age has to do with movies and TV the inputs that we get from books that we read romance novels definitely impacts what we think about what is normal romantic relationship what's a normal normal loving supportive relationship so unfortunately the way that we love and what we grow up with is different for everybody so to get more personal I grew up in a conservative Christian household I grew up with the ideal the ideal is that you will fall in love marry and sleep with one person the rest of your life right like that is what I was told growing up is the ideal and looking back you know I I always kind of thought that it was not reasonable to expect somebody to do that but that was what I thought was idealized like that was that that was the goal if I could but everybody's operating by different definitions so you know maybe I grew up in a conservative Christian household but other people didn't and maybe I don't even want to grow up with what's what I was shown but still you know that is a factor to consider so human beings one thing that I that I've really gathered from watching your YouTube channel and I think this has had effects on a lot of people that watch your channel who may have come from religious backgrounds is that human beings are not angels in human skin right human beings are animals and in particular we are mammals and you know animals have many different motivations but typically it's the basics our food shelter water and reproduction right mating and reproduction that's like the biggest thing so you know millions of years of evolution have led to human beings as they are today they are animals who also have an incredibly strong drive to reproduce and you know when you think about like all the other animals in the animal kingdom right how many of them only mate with one other animal there are some saying cuz yeah it is so simple it's easy to go pass by mean you've said to me recently also so I mean you know you grew up in a household where you were told not to believe in the theory of evolution you know and again it's something it's simple but it's very fundamental and it very far-reaching consequences like you know do you think of yourself as an angel trapped in human skin or you know or do you think of yourself as a kind of bipedal monkey that made up these myths and legends about angels Cimino uh it is a very and then the other thing you've mentioned to me a lot lately in different contexts is the difference you feel you know people would have no lies but including members your own family if they could give up the notion that you suffer in this life and then you're happy you know in an afterlife in a reincarnation in heaven and some that happens after you die did you say on this very simple very broad level these are not the details of church doctrine but these broad outlines you've just say lately and a lot of different conduct she has been remarkable view is you know even though I think you broke away from Christianity many many years ago but still the implications of that are something that shapes your life you know that so you know there's one thing it's really just understanding yourself as a biological creature simple but it put deep and goes a long way and then there's also a question of what are you gonna do with this life when you do really appreciate that it is your only life to work with that's right yeah when you're looking at your life in that way you have one life to live and only a certain number of years where you're really able to like yep have sexual experiences right oh yes a certain number reason which you could walk no but no but that's no but that's true I mean actually the number of years nobody number of years that you can walk is larger than the number of you know seculars Marisa no no that's that's really true you know what sir just real briefly I have one of my half-brothers I have a million brothers but I remember one of my half-brothers wants you know he was one of the differences between us was uh he was afraid of growing old and now was it what do you mean like I'm really looking forward to being 70 years old because the stuff I cared about doing you know that's when you're in your prime in a lot of ways when you're in your 70s but yeah obviously if your life if your life revolves around sex that particular brother of mine it really does it's that kind of guy then sure right no it's a much you're right you're right so much much more time for you yeah yeah especially you know if you're a woman and you have a child even if you're a man I used to think of myself as a scholar of Buddhism okay so cuz I was studying Palli and Sri Lankan and you know Burmese and so on doctor I was worried that I thought of myself being seventy years old and being devoted to that area of philosophy and scholarship different view of life but yeah yeah no but me for women it's a very short number of years but look for men to I know I know how differently women look at me now at a gym now that I'm above 40 as opposed to how they looked at me when I was in my 20s in my thirties I know so even for men it's it's more limited to people right oh yeah so yeah human beings are genetically programmed to be attracted to more than just one person I think it is really unreasonable to expect any partner to not be attracted to another person and to not be honest with the other partner when they are attracted to somebody else like if they want to talk about it you know but that's what monogamy is all about it's all about you know lying to the other partner it's all about saying like no you're the most beautiful like oh no she don't worry about her you know no this is her specific background right no I I found that very surprising about you that you and your your prior relationship with your ex-boyfriend that right it was old but he was at that first he was about refusing to admit that you were even attracted to other people that that was yeah because for some couples the attraction doesn't matter was just whether or not she actually sleep with them right so you know what that being said when I was young like what the influences was going to church every Sunday with the influences of having a mother who encouraged me to wait until marriage to have sex I kind of thought like the idea of waiting till marriage was the pinnacle of morality like some ideal that's somehow chastity you know like chase that that idea of like purity was kind of ingrained into my mind so that definition of love relies on denying exactly what we want as human beings which is connection especially like intimate connections with the opposite sex I mean okay there are there are exceptions there are people or not attractive the opposite sex but like you know on Anna primitive primitive on a primitive like instinctual even like telepathic basis like sometimes it's just a look that like it's transferred between people you're denying that when you're in a strictly monogamous relationship you're denying yourself that constantly and it's in some ways it's kind of like a like self flagellation like if you if you are attracted to somebody else you have to be like no and deny that and repress it and it's all about repression and just it's not healthy right but at the same time that was what I was kind of programmed to to think was was right so um yeah I mean yeah so right like when you have a monogamous relationship this is this monumental task of trying to remain happy and like convincing yourself that this is the only person that I could ever have like sexual relations with like this is the only person that I could actually be intimate with and I have to somehow be happy with that you know for the rest of my life you know it's not like you know it's not just though for like ten years or something no it's like forever that is what the ideal is um in you know Christian society so um you know keeping it all the way real this was the situation I was when I met my first boyfriend when I was 17 I was with him for six years and this included all of the years that I was in university these are years which typically you can have new sexual experiences and you begin to form your sexual identity and during that time I only had sex with one person and you know that person had a definition of love and that was the only definition that I had been exposed to like I said he was my first boyfriend and he was like my only experience with love and my only experience with what it meant to be loving towards someone and what what it actually means to be a partner that you know every day your interactions with them what is it what does it actually feel like and what is the experience that you have with them so I didn't know it then but you know his definition of love and what I was exposed to and you know of course 17 you're impressionable and you're you're vulnerable to somebody that loves you and you know you're getting all this attention from somebody and you just go along with with what you're shown at least I do you know that's my character you know it's just generally my character that I tend to you know at that time that was my character so um you know that person's definition of love was very possessive and I didn't realize it at the time but you know it was very kind of jealous and emotionally manipulative and in ways that that I just wasn't able to recognize and that was my only experience with love so once I got involved with you I also just pause and say you were very unhappy in that relationship I assume not immediately like I see not in the first month but whatever but soon enough you really weren't happy in the relationship and one of the main ways you respond to that was by medicating the condition you know you you started smoking marijuana a your ex-boyfriend smoked marijuana and then it became everyday smoking marijuana see significant treatment and then you also started on antidepressants right so I just maybe this is the most obvious mystery or riddle in Western civilization today if you have a problem do you want to actually solve the problem or do you want to sedate yourself so that you tolerate the problem or ignore that where you perpetuate the problem but I mean you were you were an example of someone doing that also yeah and again yeah I think so I think so and I think your boyfriend I wouldn't even call him manipulative about that that was kind of the deal that was like the contract for the relationship II presented to you was that you needed to be on a theatre presence and marijuana so that so she seemed well tolerated a relationship that you you were missing one yeah yeah yeah yeah it was messed up and I like didn't I am who was really messed up and you know so getting back to just like the idea of jealousy though like you know in that relationship it becomes increasingly clear after my having been with with you somebody who's not possessive somebody who's not jealous and somebody who doesn't want to be like um controlling who I interact with when I interact with and asking all the time like you know great because he was really you know made me feel guilty for even spending when talk about guys with other boys and university like you know when when that's a time when you're supposed to be like meeting new people and and just making new friends and stuff like it was it was hard for me to spend time with other boys that I like I mean maybe not even like romantically just that I wanted to spend time with so I think though it's just posing once again because the word possessive is a bit vague like part of my attitude is I don't want to force someone to be in a relation with me if they don't want to be like it's to meet like sorry it's it's really simple but it's really obvious like you know you're not happy [ __ ] I don't need you like you know you met someone you like better than me go [ __ ] up his [ __ ] instead of mine like I feel like good you know but I mean you know the reality is you're you're very much in love with me you're very happy with me and that's why you're with me so why would I try to police you or control you or coerce you and like vice-versa if the problem is that you're not motivated to be with me you're not happy with me give a simple example so we're both studying Chinese now if she hates studying Chinese and she really doesn't want to be studying Chinese like let's say she really wanted to study Greek or Italian or something okay for one thing probably in this relationship I would probably be very supportive and loving in that case but you know whatever it is if there's something in the way she could be something as obvious as that that you're miserable about where you want to be you don't want to be with me wanna be the source that you know to me it's really a fundamental like logical error to think that my role is to kind of trap you and coerce you or try to keep you in the relationship as opposed to addressing what it is that you're actually happy about or just accepting you know look you know that this girl doesn't like you or she like you for some reason before and doesn't like you now for what for whatever reason it is dealing with the reality of that rather than trying to kind of you know restrict the person's behavior given what their choice would be you know so yeah I just say that I think that's a very different attitude which doesn't doesn't have to do with jealousy directly but about possessiveness and possession and controlling someone as opposed to yeah as opposed to the deep assumption that if someone's in a relationship with you it's because they they chose you and they choose you every day and they want to be with you they want to spend that down with you and you know and really want it now I want to be with someone who's highly motivated but I don't want to be with somebody's dragging their feet barely putting up with it you know so yeah yeah yeah and you know I mean that's the contrast to your own early relationship and look guys I mean I'm not I'm not boasting about this remember I mean you know that's also why sometimes for a couple years in a row I'm alone first couple years in this youtube channel you know I'd have a girlfriend but you know again I wasn't looking for someone he would just verily grudgingly put up with me or something so you know yeah there are a lot of thing a lot of assumptions building 17 to 24 right yeah I guess it was born 18 to 24 um yeah so during those six years that was what I was exposed to that was what love was um and you know the rules that we played by were you know if he caught me or if you knew found out that I was cheating on him you know he would dump me and never speak to me again anyway two birds with one stone he was he was unprovoked you know like I mean I we weren't talking about it but he would say you know like you know it would it would just destroy me any like you know if you if you were with anybody else before I found found you with somebody else on and he'd say basically he did all the kind of hackneyed playbook including threats of suicide and threats of violence and what I know I've got nothing in my life but you know if you ever leave me it said oh right right right and of course you know that makes me feel like wow you know like this guy really needs me this guy really needs my love and attention like you know I I want like I like I genuinely feel like like I do want to help people in life and stuff so like you know that definitely played into what what I you know felt like was the right thing to do and basically you know looking back on it he just wanted me all to himself so sorry I mean like I don't like talking bad about about past relationships you know but like it does play a play into all this discussion about jealousy because that was what I was shown was love like this possessive like you are mine you know like keeping someone as like we were talking about the other day like keeping him off in some kind of glass case to be looked at but don't touch you know that was that was kind of how it was so but it has to be said to some of the manipulative tactics she's complaining about with her ex-boyfriend and some of the disputed you then tried to use on me and really extreme to not sort of like screaming at me weeping at really these tactics were used like really in my face so just mentioning I think you're a stop topic of this video but it is true some of the same tactics your ex-boyfriend did to you you did in the fullness of time try to use I I think I wasn't so easy to manipulate but yeah right but you tried yeah was really jarring like I gotta say like you know I love it now but like you know was really jarring to be with somebody that was like you know like I came home from China after the first time that I visited him he was like you know you could still turn me in you can still return me like like this in a video you're like well if you don't want to be with me like it's cool well no no no no that's that that's that's important look it's for me like early in the relationship so before we met I said to a really clear look if you're with me you feel uncomfortable there's this hotel nearby like you don't have to stay you know you can go and check in this way so there was like a no no no but I thought I felt that was really important to make it clear that it was it was her choice and stuff and not not just that you're forgetting I thought you weren't gonna mention I thought well you were gonna mention was when you went back to America I also gave you the option look you can wait and see me six months now like you know you don't have seen Megan right but you can take you know I mean you can think it over and decide and maybe I'm not such a big deal I really reminded her of those options like look you know it's it's up to you no no that W that was sincere that was meant to be no but that was complete of it's like oh yeah and I remember saying to you at that time I think you were shark you might remember I said you look you could date other guys like it's like it's fine with me like jury no but like if you state like you know okay look if you want to stay in America no because I think that's something really important to say to someone it's not I'm not giving you some ultimatum like either you sell your soul to me or it's over like I've you I've you commit with my you know demands or what like knows look you know this is a big step think it over don't rush into it if you if you want more time or if you want to date other people whatever you know I felt that's that's what I thought was kind of the responsible thing to do you know I love that I think that's the right way to treat relationships you should want to be with somebody just because you want to spend time together you know like they would like being with the person and that's what's gonna keep you together like if there's something deeper and more profound that's great too well look but you know keeping all the way real right minutes it's both it's it's self confidence but it's not reckless or ridiculous self confidence like I knew you know the sex was really good I mean there were a lot of things I know we're really sexually compatible I knew there were a lot of things you liked about me and whatever you know what it's not it's not like I'm so meek and lacking in self-confidence but the point is the morning look I'm so confident this is what I have to offer you you know the good and the bad of it but then on the other hand if you don't want it if you decide it's not for you fine that's good too but you sure you were in a type of medical program you and she she didn't want to continue with it not gonna get another deal yeah yeah study on stuck yeah sorry Medical right she was she was studying a medical topic at university and she didn't really want it but that was another thing was like look if you want to go continue that university like I respect that you know what I mean like it's not I would never say to you like no you have to drop out of school for me you know by the way that's been done to me I'm talking about past relationship or am for me this kind of thing yeah no no it doesn't really something like looking back on I'm like oh my god you're right like I did like repeat these things it was like yeah cuz that's what I thought what like a relationship was and and I remember um it was toward the end of the first two weeks that we were together we were walking in a grocery store buying groceries and you made some comment like basically it was the first time that you brought up us having an open relationship right and my brain just like short-circuited like I could not imagine that that was the future for me for eyes'll and I was like you know I I don't need to get into the details but you know like it was a truly hilarious scene in the bulk department at a toy store the ad that the bins full of beans and rice and stuff and you know it was because you were like you know you've mostly you've only been with with too much you know me and right you know you're your ex-boyfriend like you know this is I'm don't you have an interest in being less like any other person you know for the rest of your life I remember you said that we were going this this is right so this is this is part of my perspective on it I'm much older than Melissa I'm 14 years old in her and so she had only ever slept with two men her ex-boyfriend and me so again I didn't know she was good job doesn't available you know so that's why I've mentioned earlier but no no it's great it's great no I think it's good for the but part of my attitude was look if you say you're in love with me and you want to be with me for the rest of your life then that really does mean necessarily that it should be an open relationship because otherwise it would mean your whole life you don't they ever slept with you people right and that's not fair that's not reasonable by the way I'm not saying everyone should sleep with a hundred people or a thousand people but just one or two this this is a very low numeral you know and I mean it's like so you know that was part of my attitude then and I think it's still part of my attitude now and it's something I'd say to everyone in the audience I mean whether you have kind of an age gap or not but especially if you're the older and more mature party you should be able to look at the situation say look this person just hasn't had that much experience so if they're really in love with me if they want to be with me forever then it's not reasonable for me to say I should be the only person you said you know and the other argument by the way the only other argument thing is if a road of total monogamy is laziness I mean it's great if you're a it's a lot less work to only sleep with one person I guess with your ex with your first work you know you know so while he was with you you know he just freaked out oh yeah okay it's true I mean like if you're in a monogamous monogamous relationship and say you know some people is really completely over if I catch you with anybody else you know it's then so then within that framework it justified him living a totally self-indulgent lazy lazy lifestyle otherwise cuz he yeah and when I when I want to express interest in going to the gym you know like I wanted to I wasn't even interested in like gaining gaining muscle at the time but you know um just because healthy dude was just losing weight yeah you know he just shut down and couldn't know he was like you know no why do you want him get me to the gym you know like so yeah you know I think that this is not that unusual sadly you know maybe maybe not this particular situation is on health was more unhealthy than the average but I think like the typical definition of monogamy that is practiced in America that is pretty typical like okay well if you find your partner's cheating on somebody else basically the relationship is over you know the trust is great ruined and that's that and I think that's that's pretty typical so I mean I think it is important to say like yes it is lazy but it's also like if you if you don't want that it is really a lot of agony so I was thinking like actually wrote this now is like the agony of monogamy is that you're denying you're like in a constant state of denying your basic instincts is you know somebody you know and so what I say is yeah like from my personal experience it's not even like intentional like when I'd find myself attracted to somebody else right and it's like you can't so it's it's an instinct like fear right so like it can happen and just like sometimes it surprises me if I'm like walking on the street it's unexpected you see somebody and you're like wow you know like that person's you know just not even a thought you know like like like literally I can't even put like words to it's just like you know something that happens when you're attracted to someone and maybe not even how they look but like when you hear somebody talking like how they express themselves even how they write like I've been you know I in real life a good percentage of women are attracting me when they hear my voice yeah I know this very well and you see the shift you see the shift we're so the one she looks at you differently after your voice yeah yeah I think you freaked out over my handwriting I've come for that too oh yeah I think jokes my handwriting in several languages to whatever God yeah yeah yeah but yeah also even if you read some like even if you don't even know what somebody looks like sometimes if you read what they write yes that's happen to me a few times yeah wow this person is like really wonderful really amazing you get this kind of yeah yep so like you know if I spend some times with someone else like in this relationship you know if I spend time someone else with someone else and we hit it off or whatever like if we decide to like move towards something more intimate like okay like will we have even have good sex like you don't know like this will you remain good friends like will you remain like we're wanting to talk you know we even have a relationship will the friendship lasts or something no no no right right and to use a phrase I used in the street if you know a long time ago you know get disappointed get your heart broken get up get your heart broken again you know that that resolution yeah yeah there's a but it's a lot less heartbreaking if you have a stable relationship with your primary partner when you're meeting new people right but this is a fundamental that was kind of the situation I was in like when I was in college you know like yeah there were there were people that I like spending time was that like you know yeah I probably would have wanted to like engage in something more intimate but because I was in this other relationship I couldn't you know you know I have a lot of regrets about that that I isn't able to pursue that that I wasn't able to have those connections and like and these other people in college were more intellectually stimulating than your boyfriend also not a university and like you know he wasn't reading books he wasn't you know so you know that that would have meant if I would have done that it would have severed this relationship you know that I you know of course I had grown attached and this is the source of you know love and source of attention and of course you know everyone has selfish needs selfish desires thank for attention and that's that's where I was getting it so um you know isn't the so what I wrote is isn't the more mature reasonable stance to be understanding and allow your partner to seek out these other experiences if they are possible so have you been yet remember okay so when we got together most as 24 years old she's now 27 all right I have a friend who we're not gonna name I have a female friend if we're not gonna name who started discovering this stuff after she was already married with two kids all right and it's different I mean you know and again she so I'm divorced or separated and still legally and divorced quagmire you know I still have legal paperwork to do with my ex-wife she'll go on for another two or three years at least we predict going on forever but nevertheless you know if that's not something it's a universally if you're 55 years old with grandkids I think it's different no I really do I mean oh you just you have to be honest sophinarose so most was 24 she's now 27 and we have no kids you know it's different yeah I got sympathy for the other people I do you know that friend of mine who was already married with two kids and one of the breaking points for her was that you know her husband the guy she'd married he was apparently just incapable of giving her an orgasm I don't know I mean I you know what when people talk to this I don't pry I don't know if that meant she had absolutely never I'd want one every couple of months ISM but you know the sex was really bad and she really hit a breaking point she was like no I can't stick with this marriage okay be monogamous anymore and you know she went on try the things so I know different stories from different people's perspectives and they have different consequences so this isn't something that's Universal or easily said to all people in all situations and yeah you know I mean there are people who there are people who reconsider you know too late and that you know I just say that's that's a very sad very different story but obviously and you're I mean again if I had been a complete [ __ ] that you know then then you could have been one of the people who figure so it's you late you know what I mean like you could have been one of the people who looks back and starts reconsidering these basic assumptions that you had from your childhood your teenage years when you were 55 or when you had two kids or whatever it is so that's it's a footnote but really it's a pretty crucial footnote here yeah and by the way I'm self-critical that way too I'm above 40 I'm more than 40 years old now I think the situation applies to me differently too you know and obviously I was in an open relationship before this one basically all the major relationships in my life were broken relationships any of them that lasted long enough for let's say you know but you know for sure I mean yeah I mean that's all age and other responsibilities those things really delimit how you can apply this this advice everywhere yeah yeah and there's also undertones about like the number of sexual partners like yeah it makes you a slot if you might get a certain number you know and that definitely got into my mind when I was younger but see I remember the earlier conversation with it but cuz even if you accept that like if there's some noise at 5:00 like you know that's the thing I know no I know I know I know but like but my point is like even if you're talking about that with people who really do feel that way like okay you know what what if 1,000 is too much you know okay so maybe 1000 how about 500 okay but how about 50 but how about five even if you do have that idea and you know like I think again I've met some men who had enormous numbers of sexual partners and I think it can screw up your life I think when you're talking about more than 500 or something you know I mean maybe there are some questions get asked here you know about can yeah I I actually don't think it's an infinitely flexible ruler but then you but then your challenge is a much more interesting question which is ok but why is the number one because that's really [ __ ] up one doesn't work right then as soon as you accept as soon as you're willing to question the number one then you're gonna question the number to your question number three and the number four so that's again I'm seeing this bro because I know like whatever you have a meaningful like one like you said like one relationship where it can't be monogamous anymore cuz it's a terrible right and you can you can have a relationship that's totally just satisfactory sexually we can also have relationship that's dissatisfactory intellectually and you can have both it could be double just one but again I don't think there's any argument that human that you know basically all the human being should only have one or two sexual partners in their life if you feel 50 is too many stop at ten you know stop it whatever I mean you know it's up to you it's totally fine sexual amedeo sexual liberation sexual freedom doesn't mean you're under a compulsion to have sex with a thousand people that's also ridiculous but that's really a kind of strong man argument so you just say I think there's actually a moderate response to that and as you know a lot of people on the left wing instead want to say like Oh sex has absolutely absolutely no stigma well no there is stigma I mean there is stigma we've made other videos talking with us because you're judged by your personal conduct and who you sleep with reflects on you and who you are and the meaningfulness of your relationships does know I mean there's a if you literally slept with every single person in your high school there's a reason why that has a stigma you know if you slept with every single person your class there's a reason why that does but still even so even if you concede that point then there's still this meaningful challenge of how to live in I have I'd have a reasonable number of partners or relationships experiences I've know I've already I know I've already said this in this video but like it really is fundamentally about like denying your desire to have intimate relationships relationships with somebody else so like I just think so much of our lives are meaningless just drudgery you know um so few positive experiences so much suffering like so little joy that can be head right in one day and sex doesn't take that long I mean like it's you know it's like it's an enjoyable experience and I'm not you know there's it's a measured thing and I'm not trying to say like you know like you said I mean don't sleep with everybody in your high school shop like that right but um you know why fundamentally like deny yourself that and in like I say it's kind of like you know just denying yourself the enjoyment that you could be having if you weren't with some was somebody who was preventing you from from you know pursuing that if you wanted to what look I totally the civilian news go on the channel but I have I should make a new video because Adam down talked about it for several years but the other thing is I personally don't think that intellectual relationships and sexual relationships are really two separate things we know I mean I think right but I mean like right but my point is even if you sleep with someone who's quite stupid still you're gonna be sharing your life with and sharing your thoughts with and sharing your feelings with that person there's gonna be some kind of a logic exchange it just to mention someone who might not be conventionally brilliant they may have experiences life they may have a perspective month they may really have things to share with you that are meaningful to you also so you know I just say it's not like everyone has to be a research scientist but I don't I don't think those things are separable I would actually go so far as to say I think the belief that sex can be just and only sex is itself a fantasy you know and people people act out that fans and people pay money to have that fantasy but like you can't really separate sex from the reproductive urges and the social urges and the you know intellectual and emotional side of life you can try but I say don't try you know just admit to yourself that these are meaningful relationships you know that people it's real quick a better example than sleeping with everyone in your high school so back when I was yet much younger and much more handsome I used to work at a Starbucks at least three of my female co-workers wanted to sleep with me maybe four you know we could ask her we asked the fourth so you know now and I refused all of them now if I'd slept with all four that would have been pretty [ __ ] up my daily life you obviously I mean if it's up with just once and I would have been hated and I would have been regarded as a bad person I'm like let's just be real here you know my situation at work you know be like if you saw no it's ridiculous that you slept with everyone in your high school or something but you know you I know what would have been perceived really negatively on the other hand you know of course like you just said I can look back now I mean you know some of those girls some of them came from a really hard knock life I mean you know I remember one of them was a high school dropout you know just so again not a lot of conventional book-learning had a tough life beautiful gorgeous young woman by the way but you know she came out of a really and I'm sorry I want to say anything from here she came out of a really interesting bear nail looking back it's like wow that would have been someone really meaningful for me to get to know better even though you know I was all about book-learning and she wasn't at all you know I knowing knowing different stuff about her and things so you know I just say it's easy for me and my 40s to look back and see that there was really a positive opportunity there for something other than just sex but then it sure on the other hand there's the danger that you're perceived as a bad person or indeed that you actually become a bad person if you're actually lying to and manipulating like all for your female co-workers or something you know sure it'll have it'll have a corrosive effect on your work life and maybe on your character you know what as a human being like in lieu of this conversation about like this is the one life you have there's no afterlife right like the wonderful thing about life is that you get to have learning experiences and you get to have you get to know people on a level that you can yes you know that's this is one of the best things about life like you know like actually having connections with people and getting to know them and really like having a long-lasting relationship where you you keep up with each other you know like what are you doing your life you know it's so valuable and so meaningful and also even some of those girls I used to work with at Starbucks I kind of do wish I needed again and what they what they went on to and in their life after that but but but the [ __ ] up thing is I don't think any of them would have been friends me if I didn't sleep that's that's also one of the ironies of life is you know there was no possibility there of being you know for whatever whatever their shallow what who knows why you know for whatever reason yeah but something else that came up a conversation the other day and what you were just saying earlier you were saying that like it's people have this fantasy that sex can be just sex whereas like I think it's the popularity of drugs and alcohol yes club culture is really about trying to separate sex from meaningful relationships yeah and it's really hard to forget even a face you know you've mentioned to me that like you might you you remember the faces that you've seen just like of women that you saw on the street who flirted with me or something with some brief interaction you know it's like somehow like very beautiful you know and and I can relate like I remember like just certain people that I've seen and you know not even talked to you or like barely had interactions with just because it was that connection that like you know something in the eyes that happens when you when you see somebody you know the popularity of drugs and alcohol is to try to like forget that you know forget that connection or maybe even like with having sexual interactions turn yourself into an automaton you know yeah take away take away the sense of personal responsibility and depth and what-have-you to reduce sex to just sex right something wonderful but even if it's not like a long-term thing it could just be something so interesting and I've fun like like just again this is reminding me of this is a read new stuff I should make a new video on cuz I said this like four years ago or something but again compare it to skiing like even if it's not that profound or that meaningful these kinds of relationships they're gonna be way more meaningful than than going skiing going on a downhill skiing vacation so yeah no I agree and of course is the possibility you know you you let someone in your life you get involved them and it's whatever they're they're stupider than you thought they were gonna be here they were bad in bed or both or sure still more meaningful than skiing still my opinion oh yeah and then you then you gone through that experience I used I used to get email from people saying why do you hate downhill skiing yeah then you'd actually know what you're missing out on if you if you yeah look I just say I mean honestly you know if I had if I had a love affair with a woman who ran a pancake restaurant or something like I'm really not saying like the only meaningful experience is to share or being a research scientist or getting a PhD or something people also they bring to you you know they're things they've learned you know from from whatever is that yeah so getting back on this topic of like jealousy and how it affected my relationships like you know when I was thinking about this people leave their partners all the time even if they aren't even cheating on their spouses like you know it doesn't have to be something like sexual in nature that like causes people to split up and true love is really not like trying to keep somebody as a pet trying to keep them as like your plaything like your toy right true love is not trying to capture them off and you know put it in put it in a case you know a glass case where people who look at that's that's just to me not what love should be but that was that's very different than the definition of love that I was shown so you know when I'm thinking about this what is the cure for jealousy part of the some simple answer is is you know love actually being loving towards someone actually like caring about the other person and wanting what's best for the other person and not trying to have forgetting the the selfish desires of your self you know the selfish desires that you have and actually wanting good things for the partner and actually genuinely being happy for your partner and wanting them to have these experiences that they want to have you know meaningful experiences in their life so that's what I was struggling with for so long I think it really had to do with selfishness self-indulgence and my own feelings of no agonizing about this this not being able to get over this idea of of you may be finding joy in somebody else and it's it was really about like wanting you all to myself you know like I love your attention it's like the best thing in the world spending time with you really it to me like you're you're such a joy to be around I know like I mean of course everybody I love it ups and downs you know like everybody has their moods and you could not be but like you are very like fun to be around and it's kind of not what I expected when you know from seeing your YouTube videos but like you know you are really fun to be around and like things little things that you do or just you know me and everything to me and I love spending time with you so it was hard for me to be like you know I want you all to myself and this is not really what love is it's really they're just like my selfish desires for wanting you all to myself so like that's what I think was really the problem and you know me being separated from you for these six months where I've only gotten to seeing you for you for a short amount of time it's made me reflect on that and see that that's you know spending a solid month together right now wasn't really six months continuously because even the other day like I started feeling like real weepy I was like oh I'm gonna leave you in a couple days in like oh my gosh I'm not gonna see you for I don't know how long and you know like um it was really just selfish of me it was like oh I'm gonna be alone and like Oh sad and stuff it's like you know if you actually like yourself if you actually like spending time with yourself and you know if you have me alone like it's it's actually can be fun to be alone if you have meaningful things in your life if you study if you write if you just have like you you know working out is also like you know it's something solitary activity yeah when you're alone or like going for walks and stuff they're a nice thing is about being alone you know but it was my first real period of being alone I guess just to be honest like I mean because I was in this relationship when I was like you know 18 to 24 and in that relationship I was hardly ever alone at least there was always at least a stream of text messages saying you know I miss you I love you baby you know like all this stuff so actually being alone and realizing like you know you have to be okay with yourself you have to respect yourself and and and love being around yourself and then that's how you can be a good partner to somebody is not wanting to like keep them all to yourself you're like rely on them for like and for your entertainment or like your your intellectual stimulation you know I mean that was that's a great that's a wonderful thing about you you're always like you know talking about all so many different topics and it's very intellectually stimulating but you know you got to be able to do that for yourself and I love that I've been with you and I love that I've had the experiences with you that I've had because I really feel like you've taught me how to love and you've taught me what love is and in ways that I never could have known had I not been here so it's really meaningful after having you know seen that sad video where I was so like you know lost in despair and like oh it'll never be enough like you know all this time with you and you know yeah you can't you can't depend on somebody else for your own your your own you know just solve for lying itself I don't know your equanimity maybe you yeah they're on a word yeah I guess you know I just the other day when I was getting all weepy about it is like you know oh god I get I got lost in this pit of despair and depression when we get so we got separated the last time and like you know it's just fraught with all kinds of difficulties so you know but so I think I said this to you the other day but I really mean it you know aisel you know in response to that video where I said like you know oh I don't want you to leave me like oh you're gonna find somebody else like no I really genuinely feel like if you decide to leave me like I will want happiness for you because I really love you and I really just want you to have a meaningful life and have a good experience in your life and that's what I would want from you you know I wouldn't want you to turn around and be like no I like I want revenge or something why it makes no sense right I would want you to be happy for me and keep in touch with me and like actually care for me and that to me is is what true love is like deciding to that you know what you have is durable enough to the connection that you have is strong enough and meaningful enough that you're not gonna leave each other you know you you've got sexual attraction to somebody else it's just so yeah you know it's so shallow and mm-hmm it causes so much agony so much hardship in monogamous relationships you know and it doesn't work you said the other day like monogamy has been proven just not work like so many marriages end in fail it in and failure and um you know even if you just read the history of Western civilization not to mention Chinese civilization all these historical figures in reality had open relationships Napoleon Bonaparte and Josephine both you know Napoleon and his wife they both a tope relationships they didn't use the term open relationship just saying historically you know it's it's also saying that monogamy in practice was not people say it is if you actually read the Old Testament which very few Christians do there are descriptions there of marriages in which the man is sleeping with the servant and the man is sleeping with prostitutes and so on and all this is countenanced as normal and King David has innumerable wives and consorts and so on so you know the actual basis for monogamy even in the Bible let alone I just say you know when you look at the the brutal reality of what monogamy was in practice and let me tell you something guys though getting into it China China China was off the hook so the concept of monogamy and Chinese civilization is yeah yeah so when you operate by that definition of love where you're actually really happy for the other person and you want happiness for them even if it's not with you like even if you're not keeping them as your pet or like you know that you want you want them constantly all to yourself or something like that and yeah once that happens like once you started thinking about in that way I just feel like jealousy isn't there like you're not gonna feel jealous of other people because that there's nothing that you know like if your bond is that strong if you really care about each other that much like who's gonna make me jealous you know and I just don't I don't feel it anymore I don't like you know I just don't think that that's gonna happen you know and also like once you once you get secure in yourself and you know yourself like you know what you have to work on and you're honest with yourself when you're not lying to yourself about the issues that you have and when you realize that you can work on them and you can learn from your past mistakes and improve like you won't be jealous of other people or like when you just you know feel comfortable in yourself in in ways that you know that you can expand on and like you know when I mentioned this in the video that we've recorded a couple weeks ago when you're focusing on intellectual pursuits or like things you like relationships in your life if you have chosen anything meaningful or anything meaningful like your job you know like even if you're like working on like doing something meaningful in your career why would you be jealous of that if you're really trying your best and if you're really honest with yourself and you weren't lying to yourself you weren't lying to other people it's just you know it's just not gonna be there so that's ultimately what has been been my experience okay so this is you know what I've come to like that's the cure for jealousy is you know all that that you know gets wrapped up the cure for jealousy is having a meaningful life okay that's okay so the cure to jealousy in relationship number one have a meaningful long-lasting stable durable mutually respectful relationship that can stand the test of time that you feel confident is going to stick you're gonna stick around with each other for reasons other than possession or you know manipulation number two realize that love isn't about being possessive or keeping somebody as your toy or pet and also number three being genuinely happy for your partner yeah just really wanting the best for them and being happy for them yeah also honesty so yeah I said number four honesty is really crucial in relationships being honest with each other right and being honest with yourself about how you're behaving yeah I look you know we watched a video some time ago where the woman was giving advice on acne but she admitted towards the end of the video she'd never had acne herself she said something like your whole life she'd only had two or three pimples there's like she's like that direct experience of this okay interesting but very different from the advice you're gonna get from someone who's an insider someone who struggled with acne some minestrone strove with skin problems and you know likewise I think on this channel it's very rare but I've I've been giving an outsider's perspective on jealousy jealousy is not my problem it never has been and I really think on a cognitive level I don't I don't experience it you know so yeah over the past two and a half years like guys that does really opposites attract somehow I ended up with one of the most beautiful jealous and controlling and no no I mean you know I think you were doing all those coercive things where it's like I'm gonna force you to love me on my terms and yeah and you were really doing that stuff yeah no I I was very resilient but you know yeah but maybe you know glorify you but like maybe it is because of your commitment to the truth and not and being honest and being real you know that's what's always attracted me to you is that you're like really honest and you're devoted to like you're not lying to yourself so like part stop set this up so so so on that on that issue exactly what are you more afraid of masking the audience here what are you more afraid of being alone or being in a relationship with someone who does love you but is being forced to pretend that's a wrap