Veganism: this ain't for you, this ain't about you, your issues aren't the center of the world.
19 December 2016 [link youtube]
Youtube Automatic Transcription
you guys have heard me say a lot lately
I do it for the movement why do I do it why do I do this thing I'm doing right now on camera and i'll mention i'm making the time do this right now today after being bedridden l again I'm been very sick at the moment if I look sick it's because I am sick and I'm gonna try to get back to the gym tonight and I'm packing up to leave town and I have a lot going on in my life that really should take priority over YouTube among the accusations against me lately that I thought I thought fell flat someone were approached me by saying that I'm making these videos for for gain for personal gain and from my perspective that's a laughable claim uh I used to be able to say there's absolutely no money for me youtube now you go to my patreon page and see exactly how little money is it there is a financial aspect of what I'm doing on YouTube but I don't know if anyone I mean including even during writer including even people who profess they may I don't know if anyone really doubts that very simple statement that I am doing this for the movement and the interesting thing about that is when I get down to 121 interactions when you're doing it for the movement on the one hand I can say this is not about you and it's not about me and there's another sense in which it very intimately and passionately directly it is about you and it is about me it's all about individuals because the movement for me isn't something real and actual that exists now it's not even something I can critique as it currently exists in the world really one type with a movement of talking about the potential for something positive to happen in the future right and what is that potential that potential comes down to little people like you and you and you and me sitting around thinking you know what can we make happen in the next 10 years i'm gonna i'm going to digress from this the wheel topic of this view for just one second dimension you know um in my earlier video i stated i think quite passionately and positively that one of the great things we have to appreciate about this circus going on on YouTube right now this this farce as terrible and shameful as it may be to have a bunch of vegans throwing mud at each other it's actually really wonderful that we're having an open ended democratic debate ultimately even about what the vegan movement itself should be what are the goals what are our means and methods etc and that that's all being discussed now up front it's not being discussed afterwards I think there's a really interesting contrast to the failure of Occupy Wall Street from my perspective Occupy Wall Street was a failure Occupy Wall Street brought people together out of protest and then had the debate about what the purpose of the protest was after the people shown up right this is their their their great assembly method so people come from the protest and then there's an open-ended endless debate about what it is they're protesting or what are the gold they're pursuing after they've already come to the protest so to me that's a formula for failure no know how those debates before you have the protest the protest is the last and the least of your concerns the protest should be an expression of and an affirmation of what it is you already have in common it shouldn't be the start of a debate about you know why are you protesting right um now obviously there are some people who disagree there are some people who really feel that the purpose of the protest is exactly to start and ongoing and I think endless debate I mean the design of Occupy Wall Street was that they would never come to conclusions they would never say these are the goals of our movement and if you don't support these goals get out and what's interesting about veganism veganism is in some ways the ultimate single issue cause we as you have a long sequence of debates that are refining and redefining exactly what the objectives are veganism and what methods we use what we don't move use and the end of every discussion the conclusion is ultimately this is what veganism is this is what vegans needs to become and if you don't support it get out and some of those um you know some of those debates they're not really hostile but they do have to resolve questions of how multiple competing interests overlap with in veganism I can remember not too long ago some people used to write to me it used to be some discussion internet saying that some how veganism ought to co-opt or be co-opted by african-american civil rights movements now even though that sympathetic even though many people who are vegans might also want to support the advancement of african-american people ultimately I think that debate had to end by recognizing these are really separate profoundly separate issues okay veganism will never be a voice for the Advancement of African American people and even if you personally live in Georgia and your main form of activism is advancement of African American people and you're also a vegan I think those are ineluctably two separate movements sure one may inspire the other maybe in a poetic sense you know you an individual person may talk about how in their own life these things are connected but we actually can't narrow the vegan movement by saying no vegans only consist of people who are passionate about this other political issue because it really is other African American people and did this cannot become as I've just alluded to it cannot become an issue that says either you support this or you get out now the other thing I've also talked about in this channel there are all kinds of other hard limits I've talked about i think i'm still one of the only channels to talk about the fact that there are neo-nazis there are real fascists there are real racists than veganism and that any vegan movement probably does have to have a heart minute with a say look if you're one of these crazy neo-nazis we don't want you in our movement you have to get out even though they may be vegans they may support animal rights where you have hard limits and say no this doesn't overlap this this isn't acceptable and so on so I mean some of the other issues where I think fundamentally we're dealing with this same question in politics some people talk about this as siloing Owen looks are just two degress on that point a little bit further keep in mind a lot of people are just ultimately ethnocentric eurocentric etc if you think because many people have written to me intagra okay not many a few people memorably have written to me really who felt that the black lives matter movement or other specific you know movements the advancement of a frenetic people this was such a central dominant important issue that the oppression of people of color in America was of such importance that how could I not redefine my channel to be about that rather than veganism and you know I did try to engage those people in Socratic doubts okay is that a Cambodian perspective how does that look from Cambodia I'm actually interested in the future of veganism in Cambodia is that a Japanese perspective I'm interested in the future of veganism in Japan I now live in China is that a Unity's perspective like I realized that from your perspective the most important thing maybe racial tensions in Atlanta Georgia or in Chicago but I live in places in the world where nobody can permanent pronounced Chicago where nobody's heard of Atlanta you know I'm sorry they're not that famous those cities here in here in Asia you know Atlanta you know they've heard of New York it what what are you talking about I know that to you that may seem like the center the rule that maybe were your passions lies and activists and I'm a completely sympathize and I may want to hear about it i may be real interested to talk to you and hear your perspective but that's not veganism and I can't allow that to redefine veganism nor to derail veganism um and I think those people they don't they don't think of themselves as d railing veganism which is also completely understandable they think they're doing something very positive when sometimes under the heading of intersection ilysm where they really do try to conflate two separate issues like that and then redefine veganism as as subsidiary to one of these other political purposes political costs okay I know again i'm also not saying that that veganism should have a japan eccentric worldview or a cambodia secreto fewer a child city really but okay here in Asia we're actually approaching veganism with a profoundly different set of concerns and cultural traditions and conflicts if we're talking about the future of veganism china is a big part of it India is a big part of so that a million times you underestimate the importance of Hinduism for the future of vegan as these are huge issues um and Chicago starts to look pretty small still interesting still significant but I know Chicago's the center of your world it's not the center of the world you know Easter Island in the Atlanta middle of the Atlantic Ocean Easter Island is the center of the world okay there is no center of the world as my point um all right so it is also I think of some profound long-term significance that we have coming to veganism people who are more or less activists in addressing eating disorders and mental health issues sometimes separately sometimes this as the same thing there are people who are just mental health advocates their people are just eating disorder advocates I dig it and to a very real extent I sympathize nobody who watched my first video ever dealing with anorexia and bulimia something I guess could say i delayed for a long time because those are big issues talked about so much in veganism I finally made one video on that I think it's over 20 minutes long and nobody worse part of that video thinking I was being unsympathetic or judgmental or harsh I got some very interesting and meaningful email from individuals with themselves either anorexic or bulimic or both talking about how meaningful was of them and again that that's the other interesting thing I was alluding to is that in some ways veganism is just about talking to individuals and in some ways it's not in some ways it's not about me and it's not about you and in some ways it's it's very meaningful to me getting those kinds of individual personal communications really brief digression that I got an email this morning from someone who said he had a friend who was a ninety-five percent vegan so someone who was a reducer tarian but not involved with the movement and someone who's obviously a little bit flexible not really purely vegan and this friend of his said to him so this is a reducer Terry target we can say look I agree with all the principles Douglas view but why why take it that far and this guy the vegan who's a fan of my channel sent the reducer tarian the link to my video on community and the reduced her watched that video and he said I've completely changed my mind thank you this convinced me and he's now one hundred percent vegan and he's committed to both both in his diet being a hundred percent be not not compromising and also to seeing it as a political movement that he wants to participate in the future so Wow so to me that is the kind of feedback that makes all this worth while you think wow somewhere out there somewhere in Chicago that's somewhere in Atlanta Georgia you know someone is really finding this useful and again when you do it for the movement in a sense it's not about me it's not about you but a sense it is about and it is for anyone who can make use of it and it's very rewarding to find out there are individual people like that who are making use of it and I got very positive feedback from that video dealing with a an American Polly MIA from people who sometimes even themselves struggle desert you did find it useful from him they could make thats that's interesting I was expecting a lot of negative backlash in the video so and I didn't get it I didn't get it uh look I know there are all these people come into this movement with real passions of this kind whether they're sincerely passionate about black lives matter or sincerely passionate about Occupy Wall Street or sincerely passionate about a you know anorexia some other issue and they get here and they think why don't all you other vegans share my passions why isn't this the center of your world also and I think they're not they're not doing their not being destructive they're not they're not trying to disrupt the movement they're not reduce a negative working the ball I think the most part they are unaware of the extent to which they're taking their own single issue cause and trying to make it into a make-or-break issue into a barrier to entry it is something that redefines what the vegan is vegan movement is about um I'm gonna anyone who talks to me about this whether it's by Skype or face-to-face I am the one guy who's going to be asked to you i am going to give it to you raw okay veganism is not about human rights veganism is not about better factory conditions for workers it never will be okay veganism is not about helping african-americans deal with police brutality it's not and it never will be okay and if you are an anorexic and you are an activist for anorexia no matter how much I may sympathize with your struggle I've got to tell you veganism is not for you the is not about you veganism is not here to advance your single issue cause in expressed in terms of anorexia or mental health or advancing the rights of you know people with these kinds of disorders it's not okay all kinds of other people are going to politely avoid the issue or just pretend that we're all on the same boat or what have you but it is it is really interesting to me to what extent anorexia I think right now probably anorexia is the single most disruptive issue within veganism there's a much greater degree of you know anorexics feeling entitled to talk as if veganism is for them and about them and to castigate me in contrasting these other issues because you know like the far left wingers are Occupy Wall Street people or people who are actually communists they do write to me they do there are people who write to me and sincerely say that my form of veganism is immoral and invalid because it's not about the upliftment of the workers because it's not about factory conditions or labor conditions on on farms or something and none of those conversations have gone very far those are generally people who again came into veganism already with this criterion that veganism has to live up to otherwise it's it's invalid in the same way I have people who come into veganism because for them I think on a profound level personally more than politically veganism is linked to their own struggle with eating disorders and basically the perspective is that because my version of veganism is not all about them is not a little bit what's at the center of their world that my version of veganism is not valid so let's um let's hear a one let's hear one example this and I'm going to basically talk about why I'm not responding to this kind of criticism from the small number of anorexics who are basically offended that my channel exists as mentioned look you guys all know this is not a secret you guys know I'm good friends with the vegan lass vegan last changed her name to lauren phoenix so she's known as both lauren phoenix everyone knows that lauren phoenix did a long podcast with me and since then we've never been out of touch I probably I'm better friends with lauren phoenix than any other youtube fegan probably um some people gonna get insulted now semi knows I thought we were good friend me and lo were not that close another close to any uh but way just saying you know so Lauren you know uh is anorexic and she doesn't find my position on these issues um so Roberta Vaz to be offensive I think Lauren you know I think she really speaks from the the position that you know the role of anorexic swith in veganism is really fraught with special difficulties I think all our videos reflected that um you know I'm not going to get into that but but you mean Lawrence perspective I think Lauren from her very first encounter with veganism recognized on the one hand veganism is not a cure for anorexia and veganism is not about anorexics and if anything an of XX especially for an anorexic still in recovery they have a lot of special hurdles and obstacles in terms of you know becoming and sustaining a vegan lifestyle and then you know taking on a leadership role in the movement so I just think what can I tell you Lauren I mean you know she ain't dumb but also lauren when she disagrees with me I think she's just strong enough to disagree with me and not hate my guts story Sooey uh enough disclaimers but it seemed fine what I would o'clock he did not really understand what mental illness really as mental illness is not a choice and her in the past I've actually slammed people that Julian radar for claiming these fangs and made videos against them yeah okay so this is the problem we get into would I even debate with somebody like this claim like this which is so radically unrelated to what I actually said my own video so his his method of attack or critique of me is to claim that I am making the same mistake durianrider made that I am claiming that mental illness is a choice and in the video he's referring to it's the insanity and politics video started tell not only does that video contain its own critique of during Rider I have many videos you just said disagree with you run that that criticism is so far off base from my perspective it's beneath contempt and it's not worth replying to but specifically the video he's characterized have this view also says the exact opposite of the view so let me just quote three seconds seconds of myself to argue in the same video I mean you know if you are born with a mental disability I know it's unpopular and it's insulting and crude to call that person stupid if you're talking about someone who is not capable of thinking rationally because they have an emotional disability or intellectual disability or a serious psychological disorder like schizophrenia nobody wants to be insulting because we know it's not a choice we know they didn't choose to be this way okay so its claim is that I'm stated the exact opposite of what I stated it so even within that one video I stated it is not a choice that I do not believe it's a choice to have schizophrenia right and it specifically says nobody wants to criticize a schizophrenic for being stupid or wrong because we regard them as being impaired in a way that they didn't choose alright and this guy who is an anorexic currently in recovery or not yet recovered we want to say he is criticizing me remember but basically by lying by claiming that my argument in this video is 180 degrees opposite to what it was right this is the first problem is that this actual argument i think is not worth responding to know i don't say anything like that and it was anyone else i mean in politics all the time people intentionally misrepresent what you had to say this guy isn't doing that i think he is a combination of stupid enough and crazy enough and emotionally disturbed enough that he actually believes this is true he believes that in this video i'm stating the exact opposite of what i say but that's not a debate i want to have but the other problem is exactly what i just said in what you could sort what I just quoted for myself saying the earlier video I don't want to get into a debate with a guy who is obviously mentally unwell and physically unwell in which I for example call him stupid I don't want to do that I mean in politics nothing could be worse than the situation this guy not only currently is suffering with anorexia and you know when he talks about that openly okay great so that's the directions taken is his channel in less than one month ago he attempted suicide because of some some cruel remarks that were made by another person on YouTube about him someone criticized them means he says criticized this character now the version of s I got from him and other people course talked about it was that his wife called emergency services his wife called an ambulance or something he says that he relapsed so he was relapsing into um and I've actually had some kind of mental breakdown I do not know if he actually attempted to say but that was based even what what he said and what other people told me and that his wife of comers he had some kind of really extreme emotional breakdown in response to someone else shall we say criticizing him perhaps also ridiculing him here in the vegan demi-monde right now I'm the last person to defend the other guy who were not even gonna name the other guy who criticized them who made these insulting remarks of course that's bad in my earlier video I mean I really pointed out this is not flag football I basically have two fundamental reasons why people with these kinds of serious intellectual impairments serious emotional disorders serious intellectual disorders serious mental disorders should not be involved in being in politics and one of them is that it's not safe for them the same kind of ridicule or criticism that caused one person to attempt suicide or at least his wife called emergency services and he relapsed into anorexia yet serious medical and physical results someone else would laugh off or shrug off or just or make a response to or debate right I can't do that with you I mean with this guy who's an anorexic and who's wanting to bring the fight to me and I mean again terms of Polly's he's fighting dirty he's straight up lying about what my video says or doesn't say so you know what if this was happy healthy vegan you guys see how I replied to help you have the I bait happy healthy vegan if this was Jeff Nelson you've seen a couple videos where I really bring the debate back none of those people even replied I mean you how many times I've ever I debate you've seen how I debated with unnaturally okay you want to lie about what my position is on castration of dogs you want to misrepresent what I say on my channel okay let's have the debate and like real politics cuz for me veganism Israel politics those can be pretty nasty and insulting confrontations I don't want to do that with so I'm not willing to do that with somebody who is overtly suffering from such a serious mental and physical illness within the last month to my knowledge me more this guy attempted suicide because someone else criticized he had serious mental emotional and physical problems ailments suffered because someone else quit so what do you think I'm now gonna roll up my sleeves and take apart this video and say no how dare you you misunderstood my argument you're lying about what my argument is your missus representing me do you think I'm gonna I'm gonna get into that kind of debate with you know it's not going to happen right now you know maybe it should maybe maybe if your view of you know human equality with people who have these kinds of serious mental maybe it should I refer to in my earlier video you know disputes I had the long time ago Douglas disputes that with pal simian when I first got to know Palestinian I first had dialogue with him I didn't know we had any diagnosed serious mental disorders now to my knowledge she has extremely serious mental disorders and apparently he has deleted his whole channel right he's if you go to his channel now it's a list of its it's a blank screen I don't know if that's permanent I don't know if we'll come back I also don't know if he did that in response to my video it is very possible he did because that video the two videos the one on anorexia bulimia and the one on insanity and politics they do give the advice look I think this is going to have negative consequences of your life if you have this kind of serious disorder and this guy with anorexia as an example of that at the other guy who stabbed himself on camera or attempted suicide with a knife on camera as another example of that and I've already explained at length I do actually think pal Simeon is an example of that if you look at the good and the bad impacts this movement and being on YouTube has had in his life there's a lot of bad and I don't know maybe there's some good this some good but he's putting himself at risk it's not safe for him the way it is for someone else now again in my earlier video insanity in politics I I said look this is not flag football this is politics this game is not for everyone I would even go on to say though you know flag football is not for everyone um I think you know it what if you're a coach what if you're a coach on a football team like not a serious and there's a kid who wants to play the sport you know this kid has a serious mental disorder let's say the kid is schizophrenic is diagnosed with schizophrenia and you realize look if the other kids lose a game or if the other kids get taunted the third kids have something emotionally bad happened the good like the coach yells at them or the other players on the other team insult them or taught them maybe some of the kids are going to get upset maybe they're going to cry some of the kids going to laugh at it some of the kids are going just going to play the game back and return the insults some of the kids will maybe even some of this benefit from the tough love of sports right but you think wait here's a kid with a serious let's say either a serious mental disability or serious mental disorder or serious motion property say for this kid apart from because the second category the first category is if this kid plays this sport is it going to be good or bad for this kid right and the second question is is this going to be good or bad for the team and ultimately that's the same question I've got to ask you about veganism and what I've said unapologetically and I think I explained it very well in two videos between the two of them it's more than half an hour of talking right look up the reason why I gave this young woman who was a bulimic because serious diagnosed bulimia is in and out of hospital for bulimia treatment I said to her for her to get involved in vegan isn't the same way I am with YouTube as her main platform I it's a bad idea for her now there was a lot more nuance to that I said look maybe 10 years from now maybe 20 years from now you can do it but right now you're still in and out of the hospital you don't have your career sorted out you don't have a lot of things right now I think this is a really bad thing for you and you know what she agreed it was totally possible she could have written back saying how dare you you're trying to silence me you don't value my voice in the vegan movement I think she completely got it that the advice I was giving her had to do with real concern for her and the kind of damage she would endure psychologically and even economically what have you if she came on and played the same game I play by the same rules right so she got it not everybody gets it some people respond as if I'm trying to shut down or kick-out mx-6 from the movement and I'm not but I'm being honest about that kind of warning and yes so as say there's a question is it good for you is it good for the particular guy from than ever axia this particular guy showed several minarets you criticize me now less than a month ago he apparently attempted suicide he had mental breakdown he had a relapse because of this so what are you gonna do you're gonna start a debate with me now and I'm gonna call you an idiot on camera no we can't will again so again there's this question of if you let a kid on to the football team who has a serious mental disability of any kind for whatever reason again cuz one of the time of year is the danger is the same yes there were all these different disorders having bulimia is totally different from having schizophrenia having schizophrenia is is totally different from being born severely mentally [ __ ] or whatever you know they're different but you're the coach and the team and you're looking at this kidney well what is this good or bad for the kid is this good or bad for the team what do you expect the other team to do how do you check them to play the game do you expect them to go soft on the on the one kid who may really be more hurt again we're really just dying but emotionally we have you yeah I think the idea that we can all play this game the rough and tumble of this game as equals it's a dream and I all the videos alluded to the fact that look there's a really meaningful question of how do we organize a compassionate society and a compassionate political movement how do we to whatever extent you know recognize each other and cooperate despite the shortcomings we may have in earlier videos i used other examples to which I mean whether or not has stigma what if you have someone in your movement who's addicted to gambling what if you have someone your date movement is addicted to cocaine but you know someone who's an addicted gambler maybe there's still a principled vegan but they can't play the same role in the movement as somebody else they can't be trusted with financial transactions maybe you know all all politics is like this um for me I mean again I've already explained this in this video but for me you know the ultimate question is okay beautiful thing about YouTube is we get to have this debate now and we get to have it much more openly and much more honestly than we ever were able to do in any other political movement history of the world okay and if you want to state your opinion that you think anorexics current interacts people in and out of the hospital with anorexia now people who are really seriously physically fragile and really seriously emotionally fragile can play this game or can play a leadership role in the movement okay I'm willing to listen to your opinion but here's my opinion by contrast and I hope some people are willing to listen to it too if all of us this bunch of eccentrics on YouTube talking with the future veganism if all of us are abandoned on a desert island and then we gotta pick who is going to be a police officer is it going to be you the qualities you need to be a police officer in terms of a certain kind of reliability a certain kind of down-to-earth attitude this it's limited you don't have to be brilliant yeah I've heard some some police recruiting agencies try to avoid cops who are too intelligent because if they're too intelligent they'll get bored of the job I sets rumor I've never seen that documented in terms of political analysis or political tough kitchen you know uh not everyone can be a police officer someone who is currently suffering with anorexia physically emotionally intellectually is in no condition to be a police officer and you might even say apart from the question of whether or not it's good for the criminals whether or not it's good for the community whether or not it's good for society as a whole it's a very simple question asked is it even good for this guy or this woman for this anorexic person for them to take on the role being a police officer because ultimately I alluded this really briefly the other video nobody knows if they've got what it takes I've had some people in my life people who knew me personally and sometimes just police officers who knew me this much say to me that they thought I would make a great police officer and they often said why what qualities I had to meet main thing I we were great bliss out sir and you know I was very skeptical I said back yeah but you know I'm also this kind of guy also have these I have different caters to think would maybe a lousy police officer I think in many ways you'll never know until you try I think there's a sense in which we're finding out you know we're finding out whether the knife is dull or sharp by cutting bread with it you know I think in a lot of ways they're on I've heard many interviews with people were in the police services and who basically went crazy who you know lost their composure had emotional breakdowns had some kind of crisis and had to retire from police services due to emotional meltdowns breakdowns that have you I don't know and you know very interesting stories by the way of what what brought me at that point they didn't know that about themselves and obviously the people hiring them didn't know that about themselves there's a sense in which you don't know but know if we're on a desert island if we're looking around these people if we're choosing who even has the kind of reliability necessary to be a police officer it is not going to be someone who was diagnosed with schizophrenia it is not going to be someone who was so physically and emotionally frail right now that they're in and out of hospital for anorexia treatment there are people who recovered from anorexia and go on to have you know careers in all kinds paths but we're currently you know struggling to feed themselves and to deal with all of the Associated intellectual and emotional problems interaxial okay so ask yourself what we're talking about doing here in vegan politics do you think it's a higher or a lower standard than filling out speeding tickets for cars on the highway I think this is actually much more demanding I think the level of performance we're looking for from people is many many times higher so why even make excuses for people who could not fill a role such as being a police officer and say no these people can be and should be leaders in veganism as political movement um I guess too close that's maybe the sense in which although I've said so many good things about YouTube I think it's wonderful we're having this debate I think it's wonderful that YouTube gives a voice to people like during runner at one time during rider was just an eccentric guy who worked in a bicycle shop repairing bicycles and nobody cared what his opinion was and he was a guy who by his own account was diagnosed with serious mental disorders including schizophrenia that's his account of his own life it's not something I'm ascribing to him and I sense it's kind of beautiful that somebody like that can find their audience and find their voice and be heard and felt appreciate them all I think that is wonderful but it also can look an lure us into a false sense of confidence in these people it can lure us into trusting them too much when they are not trustworthy and when as I've said repeatedly under this heading these people may be a danger they may be a danger to themselves they may be a danger to others and just by us putting them on just by us giving that little bit of Fame just by us putting out them in that leadership position we may actually be enable them to engage in that kind of behavior that he is again fundamentally bad for them bad for the movement bad for both teams and also may be bad for the kids on the field playing the sport
I do it for the movement why do I do it why do I do this thing I'm doing right now on camera and i'll mention i'm making the time do this right now today after being bedridden l again I'm been very sick at the moment if I look sick it's because I am sick and I'm gonna try to get back to the gym tonight and I'm packing up to leave town and I have a lot going on in my life that really should take priority over YouTube among the accusations against me lately that I thought I thought fell flat someone were approached me by saying that I'm making these videos for for gain for personal gain and from my perspective that's a laughable claim uh I used to be able to say there's absolutely no money for me youtube now you go to my patreon page and see exactly how little money is it there is a financial aspect of what I'm doing on YouTube but I don't know if anyone I mean including even during writer including even people who profess they may I don't know if anyone really doubts that very simple statement that I am doing this for the movement and the interesting thing about that is when I get down to 121 interactions when you're doing it for the movement on the one hand I can say this is not about you and it's not about me and there's another sense in which it very intimately and passionately directly it is about you and it is about me it's all about individuals because the movement for me isn't something real and actual that exists now it's not even something I can critique as it currently exists in the world really one type with a movement of talking about the potential for something positive to happen in the future right and what is that potential that potential comes down to little people like you and you and you and me sitting around thinking you know what can we make happen in the next 10 years i'm gonna i'm going to digress from this the wheel topic of this view for just one second dimension you know um in my earlier video i stated i think quite passionately and positively that one of the great things we have to appreciate about this circus going on on YouTube right now this this farce as terrible and shameful as it may be to have a bunch of vegans throwing mud at each other it's actually really wonderful that we're having an open ended democratic debate ultimately even about what the vegan movement itself should be what are the goals what are our means and methods etc and that that's all being discussed now up front it's not being discussed afterwards I think there's a really interesting contrast to the failure of Occupy Wall Street from my perspective Occupy Wall Street was a failure Occupy Wall Street brought people together out of protest and then had the debate about what the purpose of the protest was after the people shown up right this is their their their great assembly method so people come from the protest and then there's an open-ended endless debate about what it is they're protesting or what are the gold they're pursuing after they've already come to the protest so to me that's a formula for failure no know how those debates before you have the protest the protest is the last and the least of your concerns the protest should be an expression of and an affirmation of what it is you already have in common it shouldn't be the start of a debate about you know why are you protesting right um now obviously there are some people who disagree there are some people who really feel that the purpose of the protest is exactly to start and ongoing and I think endless debate I mean the design of Occupy Wall Street was that they would never come to conclusions they would never say these are the goals of our movement and if you don't support these goals get out and what's interesting about veganism veganism is in some ways the ultimate single issue cause we as you have a long sequence of debates that are refining and redefining exactly what the objectives are veganism and what methods we use what we don't move use and the end of every discussion the conclusion is ultimately this is what veganism is this is what vegans needs to become and if you don't support it get out and some of those um you know some of those debates they're not really hostile but they do have to resolve questions of how multiple competing interests overlap with in veganism I can remember not too long ago some people used to write to me it used to be some discussion internet saying that some how veganism ought to co-opt or be co-opted by african-american civil rights movements now even though that sympathetic even though many people who are vegans might also want to support the advancement of african-american people ultimately I think that debate had to end by recognizing these are really separate profoundly separate issues okay veganism will never be a voice for the Advancement of African American people and even if you personally live in Georgia and your main form of activism is advancement of African American people and you're also a vegan I think those are ineluctably two separate movements sure one may inspire the other maybe in a poetic sense you know you an individual person may talk about how in their own life these things are connected but we actually can't narrow the vegan movement by saying no vegans only consist of people who are passionate about this other political issue because it really is other African American people and did this cannot become as I've just alluded to it cannot become an issue that says either you support this or you get out now the other thing I've also talked about in this channel there are all kinds of other hard limits I've talked about i think i'm still one of the only channels to talk about the fact that there are neo-nazis there are real fascists there are real racists than veganism and that any vegan movement probably does have to have a heart minute with a say look if you're one of these crazy neo-nazis we don't want you in our movement you have to get out even though they may be vegans they may support animal rights where you have hard limits and say no this doesn't overlap this this isn't acceptable and so on so I mean some of the other issues where I think fundamentally we're dealing with this same question in politics some people talk about this as siloing Owen looks are just two degress on that point a little bit further keep in mind a lot of people are just ultimately ethnocentric eurocentric etc if you think because many people have written to me intagra okay not many a few people memorably have written to me really who felt that the black lives matter movement or other specific you know movements the advancement of a frenetic people this was such a central dominant important issue that the oppression of people of color in America was of such importance that how could I not redefine my channel to be about that rather than veganism and you know I did try to engage those people in Socratic doubts okay is that a Cambodian perspective how does that look from Cambodia I'm actually interested in the future of veganism in Cambodia is that a Japanese perspective I'm interested in the future of veganism in Japan I now live in China is that a Unity's perspective like I realized that from your perspective the most important thing maybe racial tensions in Atlanta Georgia or in Chicago but I live in places in the world where nobody can permanent pronounced Chicago where nobody's heard of Atlanta you know I'm sorry they're not that famous those cities here in here in Asia you know Atlanta you know they've heard of New York it what what are you talking about I know that to you that may seem like the center the rule that maybe were your passions lies and activists and I'm a completely sympathize and I may want to hear about it i may be real interested to talk to you and hear your perspective but that's not veganism and I can't allow that to redefine veganism nor to derail veganism um and I think those people they don't they don't think of themselves as d railing veganism which is also completely understandable they think they're doing something very positive when sometimes under the heading of intersection ilysm where they really do try to conflate two separate issues like that and then redefine veganism as as subsidiary to one of these other political purposes political costs okay I know again i'm also not saying that that veganism should have a japan eccentric worldview or a cambodia secreto fewer a child city really but okay here in Asia we're actually approaching veganism with a profoundly different set of concerns and cultural traditions and conflicts if we're talking about the future of veganism china is a big part of it India is a big part of so that a million times you underestimate the importance of Hinduism for the future of vegan as these are huge issues um and Chicago starts to look pretty small still interesting still significant but I know Chicago's the center of your world it's not the center of the world you know Easter Island in the Atlanta middle of the Atlantic Ocean Easter Island is the center of the world okay there is no center of the world as my point um all right so it is also I think of some profound long-term significance that we have coming to veganism people who are more or less activists in addressing eating disorders and mental health issues sometimes separately sometimes this as the same thing there are people who are just mental health advocates their people are just eating disorder advocates I dig it and to a very real extent I sympathize nobody who watched my first video ever dealing with anorexia and bulimia something I guess could say i delayed for a long time because those are big issues talked about so much in veganism I finally made one video on that I think it's over 20 minutes long and nobody worse part of that video thinking I was being unsympathetic or judgmental or harsh I got some very interesting and meaningful email from individuals with themselves either anorexic or bulimic or both talking about how meaningful was of them and again that that's the other interesting thing I was alluding to is that in some ways veganism is just about talking to individuals and in some ways it's not in some ways it's not about me and it's not about you and in some ways it's it's very meaningful to me getting those kinds of individual personal communications really brief digression that I got an email this morning from someone who said he had a friend who was a ninety-five percent vegan so someone who was a reducer tarian but not involved with the movement and someone who's obviously a little bit flexible not really purely vegan and this friend of his said to him so this is a reducer Terry target we can say look I agree with all the principles Douglas view but why why take it that far and this guy the vegan who's a fan of my channel sent the reducer tarian the link to my video on community and the reduced her watched that video and he said I've completely changed my mind thank you this convinced me and he's now one hundred percent vegan and he's committed to both both in his diet being a hundred percent be not not compromising and also to seeing it as a political movement that he wants to participate in the future so Wow so to me that is the kind of feedback that makes all this worth while you think wow somewhere out there somewhere in Chicago that's somewhere in Atlanta Georgia you know someone is really finding this useful and again when you do it for the movement in a sense it's not about me it's not about you but a sense it is about and it is for anyone who can make use of it and it's very rewarding to find out there are individual people like that who are making use of it and I got very positive feedback from that video dealing with a an American Polly MIA from people who sometimes even themselves struggle desert you did find it useful from him they could make thats that's interesting I was expecting a lot of negative backlash in the video so and I didn't get it I didn't get it uh look I know there are all these people come into this movement with real passions of this kind whether they're sincerely passionate about black lives matter or sincerely passionate about Occupy Wall Street or sincerely passionate about a you know anorexia some other issue and they get here and they think why don't all you other vegans share my passions why isn't this the center of your world also and I think they're not they're not doing their not being destructive they're not they're not trying to disrupt the movement they're not reduce a negative working the ball I think the most part they are unaware of the extent to which they're taking their own single issue cause and trying to make it into a make-or-break issue into a barrier to entry it is something that redefines what the vegan is vegan movement is about um I'm gonna anyone who talks to me about this whether it's by Skype or face-to-face I am the one guy who's going to be asked to you i am going to give it to you raw okay veganism is not about human rights veganism is not about better factory conditions for workers it never will be okay veganism is not about helping african-americans deal with police brutality it's not and it never will be okay and if you are an anorexic and you are an activist for anorexia no matter how much I may sympathize with your struggle I've got to tell you veganism is not for you the is not about you veganism is not here to advance your single issue cause in expressed in terms of anorexia or mental health or advancing the rights of you know people with these kinds of disorders it's not okay all kinds of other people are going to politely avoid the issue or just pretend that we're all on the same boat or what have you but it is it is really interesting to me to what extent anorexia I think right now probably anorexia is the single most disruptive issue within veganism there's a much greater degree of you know anorexics feeling entitled to talk as if veganism is for them and about them and to castigate me in contrasting these other issues because you know like the far left wingers are Occupy Wall Street people or people who are actually communists they do write to me they do there are people who write to me and sincerely say that my form of veganism is immoral and invalid because it's not about the upliftment of the workers because it's not about factory conditions or labor conditions on on farms or something and none of those conversations have gone very far those are generally people who again came into veganism already with this criterion that veganism has to live up to otherwise it's it's invalid in the same way I have people who come into veganism because for them I think on a profound level personally more than politically veganism is linked to their own struggle with eating disorders and basically the perspective is that because my version of veganism is not all about them is not a little bit what's at the center of their world that my version of veganism is not valid so let's um let's hear a one let's hear one example this and I'm going to basically talk about why I'm not responding to this kind of criticism from the small number of anorexics who are basically offended that my channel exists as mentioned look you guys all know this is not a secret you guys know I'm good friends with the vegan lass vegan last changed her name to lauren phoenix so she's known as both lauren phoenix everyone knows that lauren phoenix did a long podcast with me and since then we've never been out of touch I probably I'm better friends with lauren phoenix than any other youtube fegan probably um some people gonna get insulted now semi knows I thought we were good friend me and lo were not that close another close to any uh but way just saying you know so Lauren you know uh is anorexic and she doesn't find my position on these issues um so Roberta Vaz to be offensive I think Lauren you know I think she really speaks from the the position that you know the role of anorexic swith in veganism is really fraught with special difficulties I think all our videos reflected that um you know I'm not going to get into that but but you mean Lawrence perspective I think Lauren from her very first encounter with veganism recognized on the one hand veganism is not a cure for anorexia and veganism is not about anorexics and if anything an of XX especially for an anorexic still in recovery they have a lot of special hurdles and obstacles in terms of you know becoming and sustaining a vegan lifestyle and then you know taking on a leadership role in the movement so I just think what can I tell you Lauren I mean you know she ain't dumb but also lauren when she disagrees with me I think she's just strong enough to disagree with me and not hate my guts story Sooey uh enough disclaimers but it seemed fine what I would o'clock he did not really understand what mental illness really as mental illness is not a choice and her in the past I've actually slammed people that Julian radar for claiming these fangs and made videos against them yeah okay so this is the problem we get into would I even debate with somebody like this claim like this which is so radically unrelated to what I actually said my own video so his his method of attack or critique of me is to claim that I am making the same mistake durianrider made that I am claiming that mental illness is a choice and in the video he's referring to it's the insanity and politics video started tell not only does that video contain its own critique of during Rider I have many videos you just said disagree with you run that that criticism is so far off base from my perspective it's beneath contempt and it's not worth replying to but specifically the video he's characterized have this view also says the exact opposite of the view so let me just quote three seconds seconds of myself to argue in the same video I mean you know if you are born with a mental disability I know it's unpopular and it's insulting and crude to call that person stupid if you're talking about someone who is not capable of thinking rationally because they have an emotional disability or intellectual disability or a serious psychological disorder like schizophrenia nobody wants to be insulting because we know it's not a choice we know they didn't choose to be this way okay so its claim is that I'm stated the exact opposite of what I stated it so even within that one video I stated it is not a choice that I do not believe it's a choice to have schizophrenia right and it specifically says nobody wants to criticize a schizophrenic for being stupid or wrong because we regard them as being impaired in a way that they didn't choose alright and this guy who is an anorexic currently in recovery or not yet recovered we want to say he is criticizing me remember but basically by lying by claiming that my argument in this video is 180 degrees opposite to what it was right this is the first problem is that this actual argument i think is not worth responding to know i don't say anything like that and it was anyone else i mean in politics all the time people intentionally misrepresent what you had to say this guy isn't doing that i think he is a combination of stupid enough and crazy enough and emotionally disturbed enough that he actually believes this is true he believes that in this video i'm stating the exact opposite of what i say but that's not a debate i want to have but the other problem is exactly what i just said in what you could sort what I just quoted for myself saying the earlier video I don't want to get into a debate with a guy who is obviously mentally unwell and physically unwell in which I for example call him stupid I don't want to do that I mean in politics nothing could be worse than the situation this guy not only currently is suffering with anorexia and you know when he talks about that openly okay great so that's the directions taken is his channel in less than one month ago he attempted suicide because of some some cruel remarks that were made by another person on YouTube about him someone criticized them means he says criticized this character now the version of s I got from him and other people course talked about it was that his wife called emergency services his wife called an ambulance or something he says that he relapsed so he was relapsing into um and I've actually had some kind of mental breakdown I do not know if he actually attempted to say but that was based even what what he said and what other people told me and that his wife of comers he had some kind of really extreme emotional breakdown in response to someone else shall we say criticizing him perhaps also ridiculing him here in the vegan demi-monde right now I'm the last person to defend the other guy who were not even gonna name the other guy who criticized them who made these insulting remarks of course that's bad in my earlier video I mean I really pointed out this is not flag football I basically have two fundamental reasons why people with these kinds of serious intellectual impairments serious emotional disorders serious intellectual disorders serious mental disorders should not be involved in being in politics and one of them is that it's not safe for them the same kind of ridicule or criticism that caused one person to attempt suicide or at least his wife called emergency services and he relapsed into anorexia yet serious medical and physical results someone else would laugh off or shrug off or just or make a response to or debate right I can't do that with you I mean with this guy who's an anorexic and who's wanting to bring the fight to me and I mean again terms of Polly's he's fighting dirty he's straight up lying about what my video says or doesn't say so you know what if this was happy healthy vegan you guys see how I replied to help you have the I bait happy healthy vegan if this was Jeff Nelson you've seen a couple videos where I really bring the debate back none of those people even replied I mean you how many times I've ever I debate you've seen how I debated with unnaturally okay you want to lie about what my position is on castration of dogs you want to misrepresent what I say on my channel okay let's have the debate and like real politics cuz for me veganism Israel politics those can be pretty nasty and insulting confrontations I don't want to do that with so I'm not willing to do that with somebody who is overtly suffering from such a serious mental and physical illness within the last month to my knowledge me more this guy attempted suicide because someone else criticized he had serious mental emotional and physical problems ailments suffered because someone else quit so what do you think I'm now gonna roll up my sleeves and take apart this video and say no how dare you you misunderstood my argument you're lying about what my argument is your missus representing me do you think I'm gonna I'm gonna get into that kind of debate with you know it's not going to happen right now you know maybe it should maybe maybe if your view of you know human equality with people who have these kinds of serious mental maybe it should I refer to in my earlier video you know disputes I had the long time ago Douglas disputes that with pal simian when I first got to know Palestinian I first had dialogue with him I didn't know we had any diagnosed serious mental disorders now to my knowledge she has extremely serious mental disorders and apparently he has deleted his whole channel right he's if you go to his channel now it's a list of its it's a blank screen I don't know if that's permanent I don't know if we'll come back I also don't know if he did that in response to my video it is very possible he did because that video the two videos the one on anorexia bulimia and the one on insanity and politics they do give the advice look I think this is going to have negative consequences of your life if you have this kind of serious disorder and this guy with anorexia as an example of that at the other guy who stabbed himself on camera or attempted suicide with a knife on camera as another example of that and I've already explained at length I do actually think pal Simeon is an example of that if you look at the good and the bad impacts this movement and being on YouTube has had in his life there's a lot of bad and I don't know maybe there's some good this some good but he's putting himself at risk it's not safe for him the way it is for someone else now again in my earlier video insanity in politics I I said look this is not flag football this is politics this game is not for everyone I would even go on to say though you know flag football is not for everyone um I think you know it what if you're a coach what if you're a coach on a football team like not a serious and there's a kid who wants to play the sport you know this kid has a serious mental disorder let's say the kid is schizophrenic is diagnosed with schizophrenia and you realize look if the other kids lose a game or if the other kids get taunted the third kids have something emotionally bad happened the good like the coach yells at them or the other players on the other team insult them or taught them maybe some of the kids are going to get upset maybe they're going to cry some of the kids going to laugh at it some of the kids are going just going to play the game back and return the insults some of the kids will maybe even some of this benefit from the tough love of sports right but you think wait here's a kid with a serious let's say either a serious mental disability or serious mental disorder or serious motion property say for this kid apart from because the second category the first category is if this kid plays this sport is it going to be good or bad for this kid right and the second question is is this going to be good or bad for the team and ultimately that's the same question I've got to ask you about veganism and what I've said unapologetically and I think I explained it very well in two videos between the two of them it's more than half an hour of talking right look up the reason why I gave this young woman who was a bulimic because serious diagnosed bulimia is in and out of hospital for bulimia treatment I said to her for her to get involved in vegan isn't the same way I am with YouTube as her main platform I it's a bad idea for her now there was a lot more nuance to that I said look maybe 10 years from now maybe 20 years from now you can do it but right now you're still in and out of the hospital you don't have your career sorted out you don't have a lot of things right now I think this is a really bad thing for you and you know what she agreed it was totally possible she could have written back saying how dare you you're trying to silence me you don't value my voice in the vegan movement I think she completely got it that the advice I was giving her had to do with real concern for her and the kind of damage she would endure psychologically and even economically what have you if she came on and played the same game I play by the same rules right so she got it not everybody gets it some people respond as if I'm trying to shut down or kick-out mx-6 from the movement and I'm not but I'm being honest about that kind of warning and yes so as say there's a question is it good for you is it good for the particular guy from than ever axia this particular guy showed several minarets you criticize me now less than a month ago he apparently attempted suicide he had mental breakdown he had a relapse because of this so what are you gonna do you're gonna start a debate with me now and I'm gonna call you an idiot on camera no we can't will again so again there's this question of if you let a kid on to the football team who has a serious mental disability of any kind for whatever reason again cuz one of the time of year is the danger is the same yes there were all these different disorders having bulimia is totally different from having schizophrenia having schizophrenia is is totally different from being born severely mentally [ __ ] or whatever you know they're different but you're the coach and the team and you're looking at this kidney well what is this good or bad for the kid is this good or bad for the team what do you expect the other team to do how do you check them to play the game do you expect them to go soft on the on the one kid who may really be more hurt again we're really just dying but emotionally we have you yeah I think the idea that we can all play this game the rough and tumble of this game as equals it's a dream and I all the videos alluded to the fact that look there's a really meaningful question of how do we organize a compassionate society and a compassionate political movement how do we to whatever extent you know recognize each other and cooperate despite the shortcomings we may have in earlier videos i used other examples to which I mean whether or not has stigma what if you have someone in your movement who's addicted to gambling what if you have someone your date movement is addicted to cocaine but you know someone who's an addicted gambler maybe there's still a principled vegan but they can't play the same role in the movement as somebody else they can't be trusted with financial transactions maybe you know all all politics is like this um for me I mean again I've already explained this in this video but for me you know the ultimate question is okay beautiful thing about YouTube is we get to have this debate now and we get to have it much more openly and much more honestly than we ever were able to do in any other political movement history of the world okay and if you want to state your opinion that you think anorexics current interacts people in and out of the hospital with anorexia now people who are really seriously physically fragile and really seriously emotionally fragile can play this game or can play a leadership role in the movement okay I'm willing to listen to your opinion but here's my opinion by contrast and I hope some people are willing to listen to it too if all of us this bunch of eccentrics on YouTube talking with the future veganism if all of us are abandoned on a desert island and then we gotta pick who is going to be a police officer is it going to be you the qualities you need to be a police officer in terms of a certain kind of reliability a certain kind of down-to-earth attitude this it's limited you don't have to be brilliant yeah I've heard some some police recruiting agencies try to avoid cops who are too intelligent because if they're too intelligent they'll get bored of the job I sets rumor I've never seen that documented in terms of political analysis or political tough kitchen you know uh not everyone can be a police officer someone who is currently suffering with anorexia physically emotionally intellectually is in no condition to be a police officer and you might even say apart from the question of whether or not it's good for the criminals whether or not it's good for the community whether or not it's good for society as a whole it's a very simple question asked is it even good for this guy or this woman for this anorexic person for them to take on the role being a police officer because ultimately I alluded this really briefly the other video nobody knows if they've got what it takes I've had some people in my life people who knew me personally and sometimes just police officers who knew me this much say to me that they thought I would make a great police officer and they often said why what qualities I had to meet main thing I we were great bliss out sir and you know I was very skeptical I said back yeah but you know I'm also this kind of guy also have these I have different caters to think would maybe a lousy police officer I think in many ways you'll never know until you try I think there's a sense in which we're finding out you know we're finding out whether the knife is dull or sharp by cutting bread with it you know I think in a lot of ways they're on I've heard many interviews with people were in the police services and who basically went crazy who you know lost their composure had emotional breakdowns had some kind of crisis and had to retire from police services due to emotional meltdowns breakdowns that have you I don't know and you know very interesting stories by the way of what what brought me at that point they didn't know that about themselves and obviously the people hiring them didn't know that about themselves there's a sense in which you don't know but know if we're on a desert island if we're looking around these people if we're choosing who even has the kind of reliability necessary to be a police officer it is not going to be someone who was diagnosed with schizophrenia it is not going to be someone who was so physically and emotionally frail right now that they're in and out of hospital for anorexia treatment there are people who recovered from anorexia and go on to have you know careers in all kinds paths but we're currently you know struggling to feed themselves and to deal with all of the Associated intellectual and emotional problems interaxial okay so ask yourself what we're talking about doing here in vegan politics do you think it's a higher or a lower standard than filling out speeding tickets for cars on the highway I think this is actually much more demanding I think the level of performance we're looking for from people is many many times higher so why even make excuses for people who could not fill a role such as being a police officer and say no these people can be and should be leaders in veganism as political movement um I guess too close that's maybe the sense in which although I've said so many good things about YouTube I think it's wonderful we're having this debate I think it's wonderful that YouTube gives a voice to people like during runner at one time during rider was just an eccentric guy who worked in a bicycle shop repairing bicycles and nobody cared what his opinion was and he was a guy who by his own account was diagnosed with serious mental disorders including schizophrenia that's his account of his own life it's not something I'm ascribing to him and I sense it's kind of beautiful that somebody like that can find their audience and find their voice and be heard and felt appreciate them all I think that is wonderful but it also can look an lure us into a false sense of confidence in these people it can lure us into trusting them too much when they are not trustworthy and when as I've said repeatedly under this heading these people may be a danger they may be a danger to themselves they may be a danger to others and just by us putting them on just by us giving that little bit of Fame just by us putting out them in that leadership position we may actually be enable them to engage in that kind of behavior that he is again fundamentally bad for them bad for the movement bad for both teams and also may be bad for the kids on the field playing the sport