IRL "debates" with meat eaters are not really debates…
16 September 2017 [link youtube]
…they're, uh, more like non-debates.
vegan / vegans / veganism
Youtube Automatic Transcription
I got a question from ask yourself via
email that's the name of his YouTube channel as self and he was just asking in general whether or not I ever debated meat eaters on my channel he actually used the term car nests so tar nests suggest that as an ideology you actively believe in and defend meeting and I said you know no I don't I haven't but it's mostly because I invite all kinds of people on the channel and we find out who accepts to find out who's into it friend who's not on a case-by-case basis there are a lot of vegans who openly say they find me too intimidating they don't want to be on the channel they were afraid to chat with me and I assume that most people you meet would also no one talked to me but the question for me sparks a kind of broader more interesting topic to reflect on which is the difference between these so-called debates that are now popular on YouTube between meat eaters and vegans and what real debates in real life are like when I talk to people who who really eat meat first and foremost when I talk to people in real life I have mentioned this at some point the Channel two years ago or something most the time those people are talking to me not because they're interested in veganism but because they're interested in me they're interested in who I am they were interested in what I'm do with my life and why I do it so I was just chatting with my girlfriend here about this if you asked me why have I had so many conversations about veganism with co-workers or at university with other students and professors I would say first and foremost it's because those people find me intriguing or there's something about me they don't understand there's something they want to you know know more about they want to dig into about me obviously even within Buddhism when I was a scholar of Buddhism most scholars of Buddhism eat meat it's not only not vegan they're not vegetarian so those issues give them all the time within Buddhism but I mean conversation would say a co-worker from one heterosexual man to another just say as the scenario obviously sometimes doctor women sometimes dr. gay men but most of those conversations would be really short really reflective really serious really taciturn but you know person would ask me about being vegan I give my answer and then they'd sit there kind of looking at the floor saying yeah yeah you know I mean like that's the kind of response you often get is people being thoughtful taking it seriously having nothing to say back to you you know what I mean and it's so different from what the theatrical over-the-top format of youtubers sitting down and crossing swords and coming up with one ridiculous excuse after another for remediating or saying oh well what percentage of people get cancer from drinking milk and this kind of thing yeah yeah when I told my co-worker that I didn't eat eggs because I had bought a cake for her birthday and I it was a vegan baked vegan cake and you know I said I don't use eggs and jsy and once I explained she said she had never thought about it and that was really like the end of the conversation and she just said yeah so yeah and she's she's in her 60s one of the most surreal and extreme examples I was actually in a UH yeah I'm gonna say a fitness shop one of these shops that sells bodybuilding bodybuilding protein see like the whole showing 90% with the garbage add yeah yeah but like shelves and shelves of the bodybuilder protein they have a few other products but like they don't sell wait wait equipment or ever since mostly mostly cell phones and this guy came out and talked to me and he was super hyped up to pitch me you know do a sales pitch I guess he didn't recognize me I didn't remember me but I had actually talked him before in that shop and he came up to me and sweet music a bit stranger and he was trying to sell me you know these these protein supplements that are variously based on way and knowing you know there's also a fad for a while on blood protein cow cow blood yeah because cow blood is a waste product of the meat industry and you know they make it into fertilizer another stuff but anyway and at the time I knew some particular factoid about whey protein several the vegan doctors like to really lay into it as like proven to cause cancer or whatever I don't know if I said look you know this way protein amiss it's really unhealthy and you know and I forget if it was that I said it caused cancer or some other specific fact I did mine and the guy said to me and he was all kind of piped up and cheery he came out came bounding up the door try to pitch me these you know various meat-based twenty supplements and he said well but that's the thing isn't it everything does like everything causes cancer everything's better for you oh yeah yeah and I said to cancer anyways great no but this is think so I said to him I didn't respond in like a caddy or angry way I responded you know in this kind of thoughtful way after pause I was like you know I'm vegan so you know nothing in my diet does like but also I was thinking about that way you know we kind of look up and you're thinking like no look I don't have any of these carcinogens your MUC diet and he almost started crying he became so upset he had that look on his face it is again it's a little bit different for heterosexual men and women but he started get tears in his eyes and he put his head down he turned around he walked out of the room like almost running he was he was so upset it was really weird I mean it was really weird but I think for him the cognitive dissonance he lives with is exactly that he's selling stuff that he knows is unhealthy as health food like I assume that's attention that I assume he's not that dumb he's not so stupid that he actually thinks he's selling people a good product you know you know is this wait so you know I would guess it's also all the issues of even gains like to talk about where you know he knows the reality is that steroids provide these outcomes not these you know protein powders and so on that was a really really strand of a unique extreme example of someone who's run away but I just say most of I mean you think about the word debate there are a lot of issues political issues I really have debated with people like like the First Nations what's the future of indigenous peoples what's the future of what's the future of endangered languages like curry in a jib way what's the future of pally scholarship of Tarragona Buddhism there are all kinds of religious and political and other topics that debate with people like but most the time with veganism I think so heavy and it cuts so close and people live with such a sense of unresolved guilt and responsibility and so on I mean most of the time like you know Co whether it's a co-worker or some of the university or they come to you the question and again the response is more on the lines of you know yeah you know like yeah that's right every time you eat a hamburger somewhere a cow was having its throat cut and they know it and never really thought about it don't really deal with it but you know so that there is no debate you know I have definitely debated with my with my father about it yeah a lot many times but it just never resolves and he's not convinced yeah even reduce me I think I mean one of the funny things I said this tamada Tegan in response to my own videos I use these examples like cigarette smoking and seatbelts instead of comparing veganism to the abolition of slavery I tend to use these down-to-earth pragmatic comparisons to well let's compare it to getting laws to wear seatbelts the step by step eradication of cigarette smoking from a society where you say we've only taken a few steps on that road you know we're far from having you know erases cigarettes from our from our culture society but you know I think one of the other funny things that those causes have in common with veganism unlike slavery unlike well unlike many other moral and religious and ethical questions is that they're really based on indisputable facts you know nobody is debating whether or not cigarettes are healthy like you know what and forget the word healthy nobody is debating whether or not cigarettes are good because there's an ethical component to it you know do do you give your own children cigarettes and by the way I heard that discussed and one of the only populations that does you know Carina ghibli people because they use tobacco in religious ceremonies they do sometimes give tobacco to children so it's interesting comes up in that in that context but you know seatbelts again forget kind of healthy you forget you know forget life-saving verses number of deaths versus number of injuries you know if you just use the word good or seatbelts good you know it's on this kind of level of indisputable facts where there's nothing to debate so that's interesting I mean on this channel we do talk about a lot of debates within veganism that I think are important and ongoing and confusing and you know they'll change the future of the vegan movement the same way in the last five years we've seen veganism take on you know a bunch of different directions and not make too much progress any one of them that's okay bit by bit you know we're like a can of tomato soup rolling down a staircase you know we make progress one way or another you're not quite sure which way the cans gonna fall but it's it's key is rolling in this direction it out of a but yeah I think I think it is funny because framing veganism in terms of a debate in terms of something meat eaters vegan or sit in a rationally hash out that way I don't see that at all I mean Karnas side is going to be unreasonable right it's really right with somebody that can't be reasonable it you know I tried many times you say that but Dora I disagree in the following sense I think the number one counter-argument is is I don't care great right and I mean that is with you that's why I always shift the debate from dealing with facts again I think the facts are on our side to dealing with the question of what kind of person are you what kind of person do you want to be and you know what kind of person am i you know like I know it's really common to say I'm vegan for the animals I don't say that I'm vegan because of who I am because of the kind of person I want to be you don't I mean and again I've made this comparison long ago but like I don't refuse to use cocaine because I don't want my money going to support guerrilla warfare in Colombia that is a legitimate reason to refuse cocaine because you're paying money and it's going to criminals and armed rebels and what-have-you okay no the reality is all to them we could say that we could pretend that's why we don't use go I don't use cocaine because the kind of person I am and in future the kind of person I aspire to be you know so it's about me it's about Who I am and most of the time we're talking meters that's why they're talking about veganism is because they're interested in who I am again whether it's a co-worker or colleague or what-have-you and then the answer is you know ultimately what I'm putting on them is look there's a question of who do you want to be what kind of price do you want to be the person who makes the excuse or says they just don't care about the ecological aspects the ethical aspects animal rights aspects and the health aspects do you want to be the person who has the heart attack who says you don't care or do you want be the person who's responsible for slitting the cow's throat says I don't care so again you're gonna stay in calm in those situations - like for me it's it's really hard just to have someone say that they don't care it's like not care right right but I think you see I think that's I think that's is it what I'm saying it's not debate like we're not gonna debate whether or not I'm a horrible person and whether or not somebody else you do it I mean I give me you know the word debate has to mean something at some point we're not having a debate anymore the question is what kind of person do you want to be yeah and I agree I think it is harder for women in both ways because I also think women are very cruel to other women that's why couple times the video said as one heterosexual man talking another heard of sexual man I think that I am very good at admissions for heterosexual men don't like it when you them they don't like it when you beat around the bush they don't like when you're in direct or snarky or what-have-you and you know I've seen this you know with my ex-wife and with other women and other girlfriends what have you and you can even see it on YouTube and I think I think all the debates have been have been pretty much meant no being gates to debate with one woman with Roma millennial right yeah but I think the way that women talk about these issues is different and the burden on women you know the role in cooking and traditional culture and everything else I think there are many many ways in which it can be harder if it's a woman with a female colleague and just what the boundaries are and so on because with me ultimately like if it's a male colleague who's bullying me you're pushing me around or some things like dude do you want to step outside yeah and I'm sorry to say it but like again like you know we've talked with us in difficult that comes up often in my life you know the indirect reality the fact that like pieces in the shadow of war and that good manners are in the shadow of violence like all the time as men dealing with men in the workplace or in the school yard or have you but at the same time that kind of keeps it this straight and narrow I think a lot of the times with women there it there isn't that awareness of limits and women will just be unbelievably cruel and insulting and vile to one another you know again in the workplace you know to start with or at Thanksgiving you know what Thanksgiving dinners you know and that kind of thing work can get nasty pretty quick ya know I haven't had that experience usually just because I haven't talked to very many people about it you know the co-worker that I was talking with is in her sixties and she's a very nice person she didn't she didn't she wasn't cruel or anything she just really said she was genuinely asking why and once I explained she said about it she just really thought I were like you know that the hens laying the eggs it was natural and normal and they it's just take day I guess she really has never seen footage like you know so you know do the flip side of this I mean you just said in there that she's never thought about it we saw a video from a very very fat guy very very guy who had converted to veganism and he said of himself that before he watched this movie he had just never thought about it he never thought about where meat comes from basically I've got to say for me again ultimately the problem there is not where meat comes from the problem is what kind of person are you what kind of new book who who who gets to the age of 50 maybe he's 40 I don't know I know who gets the age of 40 never thinking about where milk comes from or never thinking about where hamburger meat comes from you know really let you know now again I think he's being sincere I don't think that guy's lying he seemed to me completely sincere and just saying he'd never thought about it but like dude that says something about you intellectually that says something about you morally that says something about you and if you if you fundamentally lacked the sense of curiosity the sense of moral responsibility you know sense of awareness I don't know what other nails and additives to throw in here whatever it is you're lacking I think you've got to examine who you are or who you were as a younger person and now in the future what kind of person you know do you want to be yeah the things that came up that she said that she had not thought about one was yeah she asked if I if I liked chocolate because they had some some dessert for my boss's birthday yeah it was also not vegan so I couldn't eat it anyway but we were talking about chocolate because she really likes chocolate and and I was saying you know I I usually don't eat chocolate because of the human rights violations that hasn't happened and you know there is a list online of Fairtrade certified and that thing that type of certification but even then you know I don't I don't eat much chocolate anyway but anyway um yes there was another thing that she said she had not thought about and also my winter coat that I bought right also she got an old ultra ethically sourced winter coat yeah did they they actually show video of the factory the labor conditions Sonia right so yeah - two things that you know I don't know if it's just now this generation of people that are coming up there they're more aware of these these issues or if if it really is just something that no or they believe they just believe everything is is ethical like you know they buy into the lies that the desert if we were having this question in 1970 with a much larger camera filming it the reality is that that discourse was dominate was dominated by communists communism and socialism you know those questions of where did things come from how were they made factory conditions those were huge huge political and ethical issues but they were weaponized by the far-left now I think they still are I think you know my colleague here on YouTube privilege vegan I think she's trying to play the same game of trying to turn that into what I'm going to say a political weapon or you know she's trying to make propaganda Oh to these kinds of isolated facts about capitalism and sorrow so that that still goes on but no I think there's a fundamental human impulse to ask and all children do I did it every day as well where does this come from I was the man I was interested in how boxes were made you know what where does a cardboard box come from what is this you know the sole fundamental human nature with the exception of maybe children that are severely now I've worked with children a little bit like if you're only moderately as a child that you still ask those questions Sean I mean it's pretty pretty close to the core of human nature and pretty close to universal so no I can't I can't really excuse any generation you know from from lacking that that that basic engagement with reality right hmm okay so that's it I mean I think you and I both I mean there's no reason to divide vegans into camps but I think there is a sense which you and I both you know don't think the future of veganism is going to be defined by debate you know it's not something can be won or lost in in debate and you know and that's okay I think there are a lot of questions you know within veganism that we really need to debate you know whether it's vivisection or pet ownership what-have-you but talking about these issues that other vegan channels you know other vegan channels focus on trying to get people to turn vegan yes and or you know pandering to audiences who are already begun and they want to you know just discuss with each other why a pecan diet is so healthy and wonderful yeah but your channel actually talks about these issues and but you know it's worth debating all the others right I mean you were like just in conversation did a couple of different kind of bright lights from veganism came up I mean these different these different books coming in out of fashion the skinny diet that was a big deal I think about five years ago I would say a peaked five years ago obviously the books still around you know dr. Gregers how not to die these different kind of you know approaches to veganism come and go and I do think I mean I think basically fundamentally I want to learn from both the successes and the failures of the different you know steps taken by vegans in different directions and there's a lot of debate that goes into that but in terms of my interactions with meat eaters in my own family in the workplace at university because I'm still I've spent a lot of my time in universities still a university student in some sense you know it's for me it's not something debatable it's not sinking win or loser debate and ultimately it's not even both veganism and it's not even boat eating meat it's about Who am I who are you what kind of person you want to be and that's why they're talking to me ultimately they want to get to know me and so you know whether you're positive or negative because you can talk about these things in an honest way that's really dark you know but you know remember you're not really introducing veganism you're introducing yourself
email that's the name of his YouTube channel as self and he was just asking in general whether or not I ever debated meat eaters on my channel he actually used the term car nests so tar nests suggest that as an ideology you actively believe in and defend meeting and I said you know no I don't I haven't but it's mostly because I invite all kinds of people on the channel and we find out who accepts to find out who's into it friend who's not on a case-by-case basis there are a lot of vegans who openly say they find me too intimidating they don't want to be on the channel they were afraid to chat with me and I assume that most people you meet would also no one talked to me but the question for me sparks a kind of broader more interesting topic to reflect on which is the difference between these so-called debates that are now popular on YouTube between meat eaters and vegans and what real debates in real life are like when I talk to people who who really eat meat first and foremost when I talk to people in real life I have mentioned this at some point the Channel two years ago or something most the time those people are talking to me not because they're interested in veganism but because they're interested in me they're interested in who I am they were interested in what I'm do with my life and why I do it so I was just chatting with my girlfriend here about this if you asked me why have I had so many conversations about veganism with co-workers or at university with other students and professors I would say first and foremost it's because those people find me intriguing or there's something about me they don't understand there's something they want to you know know more about they want to dig into about me obviously even within Buddhism when I was a scholar of Buddhism most scholars of Buddhism eat meat it's not only not vegan they're not vegetarian so those issues give them all the time within Buddhism but I mean conversation would say a co-worker from one heterosexual man to another just say as the scenario obviously sometimes doctor women sometimes dr. gay men but most of those conversations would be really short really reflective really serious really taciturn but you know person would ask me about being vegan I give my answer and then they'd sit there kind of looking at the floor saying yeah yeah you know I mean like that's the kind of response you often get is people being thoughtful taking it seriously having nothing to say back to you you know what I mean and it's so different from what the theatrical over-the-top format of youtubers sitting down and crossing swords and coming up with one ridiculous excuse after another for remediating or saying oh well what percentage of people get cancer from drinking milk and this kind of thing yeah yeah when I told my co-worker that I didn't eat eggs because I had bought a cake for her birthday and I it was a vegan baked vegan cake and you know I said I don't use eggs and jsy and once I explained she said she had never thought about it and that was really like the end of the conversation and she just said yeah so yeah and she's she's in her 60s one of the most surreal and extreme examples I was actually in a UH yeah I'm gonna say a fitness shop one of these shops that sells bodybuilding bodybuilding protein see like the whole showing 90% with the garbage add yeah yeah but like shelves and shelves of the bodybuilder protein they have a few other products but like they don't sell wait wait equipment or ever since mostly mostly cell phones and this guy came out and talked to me and he was super hyped up to pitch me you know do a sales pitch I guess he didn't recognize me I didn't remember me but I had actually talked him before in that shop and he came up to me and sweet music a bit stranger and he was trying to sell me you know these these protein supplements that are variously based on way and knowing you know there's also a fad for a while on blood protein cow cow blood yeah because cow blood is a waste product of the meat industry and you know they make it into fertilizer another stuff but anyway and at the time I knew some particular factoid about whey protein several the vegan doctors like to really lay into it as like proven to cause cancer or whatever I don't know if I said look you know this way protein amiss it's really unhealthy and you know and I forget if it was that I said it caused cancer or some other specific fact I did mine and the guy said to me and he was all kind of piped up and cheery he came out came bounding up the door try to pitch me these you know various meat-based twenty supplements and he said well but that's the thing isn't it everything does like everything causes cancer everything's better for you oh yeah yeah and I said to cancer anyways great no but this is think so I said to him I didn't respond in like a caddy or angry way I responded you know in this kind of thoughtful way after pause I was like you know I'm vegan so you know nothing in my diet does like but also I was thinking about that way you know we kind of look up and you're thinking like no look I don't have any of these carcinogens your MUC diet and he almost started crying he became so upset he had that look on his face it is again it's a little bit different for heterosexual men and women but he started get tears in his eyes and he put his head down he turned around he walked out of the room like almost running he was he was so upset it was really weird I mean it was really weird but I think for him the cognitive dissonance he lives with is exactly that he's selling stuff that he knows is unhealthy as health food like I assume that's attention that I assume he's not that dumb he's not so stupid that he actually thinks he's selling people a good product you know you know is this wait so you know I would guess it's also all the issues of even gains like to talk about where you know he knows the reality is that steroids provide these outcomes not these you know protein powders and so on that was a really really strand of a unique extreme example of someone who's run away but I just say most of I mean you think about the word debate there are a lot of issues political issues I really have debated with people like like the First Nations what's the future of indigenous peoples what's the future of what's the future of endangered languages like curry in a jib way what's the future of pally scholarship of Tarragona Buddhism there are all kinds of religious and political and other topics that debate with people like but most the time with veganism I think so heavy and it cuts so close and people live with such a sense of unresolved guilt and responsibility and so on I mean most of the time like you know Co whether it's a co-worker or some of the university or they come to you the question and again the response is more on the lines of you know yeah you know like yeah that's right every time you eat a hamburger somewhere a cow was having its throat cut and they know it and never really thought about it don't really deal with it but you know so that there is no debate you know I have definitely debated with my with my father about it yeah a lot many times but it just never resolves and he's not convinced yeah even reduce me I think I mean one of the funny things I said this tamada Tegan in response to my own videos I use these examples like cigarette smoking and seatbelts instead of comparing veganism to the abolition of slavery I tend to use these down-to-earth pragmatic comparisons to well let's compare it to getting laws to wear seatbelts the step by step eradication of cigarette smoking from a society where you say we've only taken a few steps on that road you know we're far from having you know erases cigarettes from our from our culture society but you know I think one of the other funny things that those causes have in common with veganism unlike slavery unlike well unlike many other moral and religious and ethical questions is that they're really based on indisputable facts you know nobody is debating whether or not cigarettes are healthy like you know what and forget the word healthy nobody is debating whether or not cigarettes are good because there's an ethical component to it you know do do you give your own children cigarettes and by the way I heard that discussed and one of the only populations that does you know Carina ghibli people because they use tobacco in religious ceremonies they do sometimes give tobacco to children so it's interesting comes up in that in that context but you know seatbelts again forget kind of healthy you forget you know forget life-saving verses number of deaths versus number of injuries you know if you just use the word good or seatbelts good you know it's on this kind of level of indisputable facts where there's nothing to debate so that's interesting I mean on this channel we do talk about a lot of debates within veganism that I think are important and ongoing and confusing and you know they'll change the future of the vegan movement the same way in the last five years we've seen veganism take on you know a bunch of different directions and not make too much progress any one of them that's okay bit by bit you know we're like a can of tomato soup rolling down a staircase you know we make progress one way or another you're not quite sure which way the cans gonna fall but it's it's key is rolling in this direction it out of a but yeah I think I think it is funny because framing veganism in terms of a debate in terms of something meat eaters vegan or sit in a rationally hash out that way I don't see that at all I mean Karnas side is going to be unreasonable right it's really right with somebody that can't be reasonable it you know I tried many times you say that but Dora I disagree in the following sense I think the number one counter-argument is is I don't care great right and I mean that is with you that's why I always shift the debate from dealing with facts again I think the facts are on our side to dealing with the question of what kind of person are you what kind of person do you want to be and you know what kind of person am i you know like I know it's really common to say I'm vegan for the animals I don't say that I'm vegan because of who I am because of the kind of person I want to be you don't I mean and again I've made this comparison long ago but like I don't refuse to use cocaine because I don't want my money going to support guerrilla warfare in Colombia that is a legitimate reason to refuse cocaine because you're paying money and it's going to criminals and armed rebels and what-have-you okay no the reality is all to them we could say that we could pretend that's why we don't use go I don't use cocaine because the kind of person I am and in future the kind of person I aspire to be you know so it's about me it's about Who I am and most of the time we're talking meters that's why they're talking about veganism is because they're interested in who I am again whether it's a co-worker or colleague or what-have-you and then the answer is you know ultimately what I'm putting on them is look there's a question of who do you want to be what kind of price do you want to be the person who makes the excuse or says they just don't care about the ecological aspects the ethical aspects animal rights aspects and the health aspects do you want to be the person who has the heart attack who says you don't care or do you want be the person who's responsible for slitting the cow's throat says I don't care so again you're gonna stay in calm in those situations - like for me it's it's really hard just to have someone say that they don't care it's like not care right right but I think you see I think that's I think that's is it what I'm saying it's not debate like we're not gonna debate whether or not I'm a horrible person and whether or not somebody else you do it I mean I give me you know the word debate has to mean something at some point we're not having a debate anymore the question is what kind of person do you want to be yeah and I agree I think it is harder for women in both ways because I also think women are very cruel to other women that's why couple times the video said as one heterosexual man talking another heard of sexual man I think that I am very good at admissions for heterosexual men don't like it when you them they don't like it when you beat around the bush they don't like when you're in direct or snarky or what-have-you and you know I've seen this you know with my ex-wife and with other women and other girlfriends what have you and you can even see it on YouTube and I think I think all the debates have been have been pretty much meant no being gates to debate with one woman with Roma millennial right yeah but I think the way that women talk about these issues is different and the burden on women you know the role in cooking and traditional culture and everything else I think there are many many ways in which it can be harder if it's a woman with a female colleague and just what the boundaries are and so on because with me ultimately like if it's a male colleague who's bullying me you're pushing me around or some things like dude do you want to step outside yeah and I'm sorry to say it but like again like you know we've talked with us in difficult that comes up often in my life you know the indirect reality the fact that like pieces in the shadow of war and that good manners are in the shadow of violence like all the time as men dealing with men in the workplace or in the school yard or have you but at the same time that kind of keeps it this straight and narrow I think a lot of the times with women there it there isn't that awareness of limits and women will just be unbelievably cruel and insulting and vile to one another you know again in the workplace you know to start with or at Thanksgiving you know what Thanksgiving dinners you know and that kind of thing work can get nasty pretty quick ya know I haven't had that experience usually just because I haven't talked to very many people about it you know the co-worker that I was talking with is in her sixties and she's a very nice person she didn't she didn't she wasn't cruel or anything she just really said she was genuinely asking why and once I explained she said about it she just really thought I were like you know that the hens laying the eggs it was natural and normal and they it's just take day I guess she really has never seen footage like you know so you know do the flip side of this I mean you just said in there that she's never thought about it we saw a video from a very very fat guy very very guy who had converted to veganism and he said of himself that before he watched this movie he had just never thought about it he never thought about where meat comes from basically I've got to say for me again ultimately the problem there is not where meat comes from the problem is what kind of person are you what kind of new book who who who gets to the age of 50 maybe he's 40 I don't know I know who gets the age of 40 never thinking about where milk comes from or never thinking about where hamburger meat comes from you know really let you know now again I think he's being sincere I don't think that guy's lying he seemed to me completely sincere and just saying he'd never thought about it but like dude that says something about you intellectually that says something about you morally that says something about you and if you if you fundamentally lacked the sense of curiosity the sense of moral responsibility you know sense of awareness I don't know what other nails and additives to throw in here whatever it is you're lacking I think you've got to examine who you are or who you were as a younger person and now in the future what kind of person you know do you want to be yeah the things that came up that she said that she had not thought about one was yeah she asked if I if I liked chocolate because they had some some dessert for my boss's birthday yeah it was also not vegan so I couldn't eat it anyway but we were talking about chocolate because she really likes chocolate and and I was saying you know I I usually don't eat chocolate because of the human rights violations that hasn't happened and you know there is a list online of Fairtrade certified and that thing that type of certification but even then you know I don't I don't eat much chocolate anyway but anyway um yes there was another thing that she said she had not thought about and also my winter coat that I bought right also she got an old ultra ethically sourced winter coat yeah did they they actually show video of the factory the labor conditions Sonia right so yeah - two things that you know I don't know if it's just now this generation of people that are coming up there they're more aware of these these issues or if if it really is just something that no or they believe they just believe everything is is ethical like you know they buy into the lies that the desert if we were having this question in 1970 with a much larger camera filming it the reality is that that discourse was dominate was dominated by communists communism and socialism you know those questions of where did things come from how were they made factory conditions those were huge huge political and ethical issues but they were weaponized by the far-left now I think they still are I think you know my colleague here on YouTube privilege vegan I think she's trying to play the same game of trying to turn that into what I'm going to say a political weapon or you know she's trying to make propaganda Oh to these kinds of isolated facts about capitalism and sorrow so that that still goes on but no I think there's a fundamental human impulse to ask and all children do I did it every day as well where does this come from I was the man I was interested in how boxes were made you know what where does a cardboard box come from what is this you know the sole fundamental human nature with the exception of maybe children that are severely now I've worked with children a little bit like if you're only moderately as a child that you still ask those questions Sean I mean it's pretty pretty close to the core of human nature and pretty close to universal so no I can't I can't really excuse any generation you know from from lacking that that that basic engagement with reality right hmm okay so that's it I mean I think you and I both I mean there's no reason to divide vegans into camps but I think there is a sense which you and I both you know don't think the future of veganism is going to be defined by debate you know it's not something can be won or lost in in debate and you know and that's okay I think there are a lot of questions you know within veganism that we really need to debate you know whether it's vivisection or pet ownership what-have-you but talking about these issues that other vegan channels you know other vegan channels focus on trying to get people to turn vegan yes and or you know pandering to audiences who are already begun and they want to you know just discuss with each other why a pecan diet is so healthy and wonderful yeah but your channel actually talks about these issues and but you know it's worth debating all the others right I mean you were like just in conversation did a couple of different kind of bright lights from veganism came up I mean these different these different books coming in out of fashion the skinny diet that was a big deal I think about five years ago I would say a peaked five years ago obviously the books still around you know dr. Gregers how not to die these different kind of you know approaches to veganism come and go and I do think I mean I think basically fundamentally I want to learn from both the successes and the failures of the different you know steps taken by vegans in different directions and there's a lot of debate that goes into that but in terms of my interactions with meat eaters in my own family in the workplace at university because I'm still I've spent a lot of my time in universities still a university student in some sense you know it's for me it's not something debatable it's not sinking win or loser debate and ultimately it's not even both veganism and it's not even boat eating meat it's about Who am I who are you what kind of person you want to be and that's why they're talking to me ultimately they want to get to know me and so you know whether you're positive or negative because you can talk about these things in an honest way that's really dark you know but you know remember you're not really introducing veganism you're introducing yourself