Vegans Kill Cockroaches (Vivisection, Agriculture & Activism)
26 April 2016 [link youtube]
Well… the title itself is long enough to serve as the description: the video offers some real talk on vivisection, agriculture and activism, with challenging contrasts between idealism and pragmatism, as (hopefully) veganism becomes a crucial part of ecology in the 21st century.
Youtube Automatic Transcription
this movement is going to change because
it has to change yoga pants can't be the future of this movement now saying it shouldn't be saying it can't be bicycles and beaches and [ __ ] cannot be the future of this movie it won't be because in can't see and as veganism grows as veganism becomes a crucial part of ecology in general we're gonna get people who are sincerely interested in making a difference and who care more about making a real-world difference than they do about your lease hey what's up this video is going to talk about the specific issue of killing cockroaches and why it matters but in preface I just want to ground this in a sense of realism as to what the situation globally really is right now take a look at this chart I'll try to leave this on screen long enough that you can pause it if you want to and get a good long look I made these charts myself I downloaded the statistics directly from United Nations organization called the FAO the Food and Agriculture Organization I put in the numbers I also put together this particular illustration if you're watching this you can probably remember the year 2000 maybe for a few teenagers who watch my channel it's a distant memory or they can't remember at all but the year 2000 is not ancient history ok the amount of meat being produced in the United States in Asia in the world in total has only increased and it has increased dramatically since the year 2000 ever since I've been involved with veganism online I have heard what I would consider harebrained statements from my fellow vegans about how we're winning we're transforming the world how this is an era of a new awareness etc etc and the statistics do not back that up we have lived through an era of the massive expansion of industrialized meat agriculture ok we have lived through an era of the intensification of the exploitation of animals on a scale that is almost impossible to imagine that's our generation not our parents not our grandparents it's us now all right you want to kid yourself into thinking this is the Age of Aquarius if you want some kind of hippie ego trip that we're members of a wonderful generation that's turning things around that's not true take a careful look at the yellow line showing the amount of chicken being slaughtered in the United States there is a dip in the line around the year 2008 it might have lagged one year might be there in 2009 okay that didn't happen because of street protests from vegans it didn't happen for any reason like that happened because of the financial crisis stock market crash in the United States especially a collapse in real estate prices back in those years 2007 8 2007 2008 2009 right there was an economic bubble in those years that burst ok we as vegans as a tiny ethical minority have never had an impact comparable to that one year's economic crisis we are not bringing this line down now if you read the reports in the Food and Agriculture Organization read the actual reports the actual research articles not the propaganda other vegans make out of it you will see that they expect the world's total meat production is going to continue to increase by another 70% ok some places like the United States may be reaching their limit where they just can't economically produce that much more meat because they're producing such an enormous amount already and also places the united states now have to compete more and more with other countries with cheaper sources of meat that's a real reason why meat production may decline in the US or may at least flatten out now simply because Americans may be able to import more meat from Mexico Argentina Colombia Brazil I don't know that's part of the negotiations over the trans-pacific partnership and other trade agreements we may get more of a globalized market for meat and that will have impacts that'll have impacts on a scale much larger than our tiny ethically defined movement okay this is reality facing up to this reality doesn't make you ante vegan it's the most essential part of being Pro vegan all right and the experience I've had with running this channel and before just when I was at a blog was just the Internet it is hilarious to me that people will attack you for not basically repeating propaganda half-truths and lies whether it's about the supposed success the vegan movement itself or whether it's about how much water a vegan diet supposedly saves I had an earlier video on that here and people were shocked guess what pork is actually quite water efficient guess what the main savings of water you see your diet as a vegan is eating grains not fruit and you can have a diet that consists of grains and pork that uses less water than a vegan diet that eats a lot of luxury fruit nuts or raw vegan diet math is not that simple people really complain them in the video why would you say this because it's true because it's important because it's salient and meaningful to what we do and because my beliefs are not based on a lie all right I'm not here selling you a lie I'm not here selling you false hope I'm here to present real hope and real problems and basically if we can't even talk about the problems then we're never going to get to the stage of talking about solutions or of actually bringing about solutions and of course that's depressing to me that's the reality that's a person who becomes vegan today a lot of people who become vegan want to pretend these problems are already sold rather than looking and any on a self-critical way about what are the problems what are we actually doing to solve them what is the future get a mean for any of us or all of us all right now coming back to the particular puzzle I want to address in this video now that I've basically grounded this with just just two little line charts in how dire and how terrible the situation is and that it's getting worse every day and that it has gotten worse and worse by the millions of animals within our lifetime since the year 2000 in reality the situation has gotten worse and worse and worse and this by the way I've made charts like this even for countries like Taiwan that have a very well-organized vegan minority very vocal very public very visible vegan presence in Taiwan but guess what meanwhile the intensification the expansion the efflorescence of animal agriculture has continued alongside that even in these intensely Buddhist countries like Taiwan Sri Lanka Thailand all of them okay the number of animals being killed per day has increased it increased within our lifetimes okay what used to be a Western technology of factory farming has been more and more globalized it's happening in Africa it's happening in Asia and it just increased in scale within the United States within Europe that is our generation that's what's going on right now that's the trend veganism is not the trend all right I wish it was but like I say I'm not here to sell you phony good news I'm not here to sell you false hope and to me that's anti-vegan to me what the the distinctive thing that marks us vegan that unifies us that shows who's really vegan and who's not is that you are willing to face up to that truth witnessing that truth and admitting it to yourself how terrible and how terrifying it is being a witness to the grim reality of animal agriculture at a massive scale that's what makes us vegan that's what we have in common not bicycles not bikinis not yoga not even you know your food preferences now ah so I got this letter about killing cockroaches I'm gonna read it to you from a regular viewer this guy lives in Los Angeles I am leaving him anonymous for obvious reasons because if I said who he was he would receive hate mail the same way I receive hate mail for daring to admit that these are real issues that matter in veganism so he writes I just listened to your last video the one about rats so that's referring to a video that says vegans kill rats in the title and that like this video has a somewhat nuanced and sophisticated argument that many of my fellow vegans completely missed the point of he says you know you know what it raises the thought that always comes to me over and over again with so many varying beliefs feelings opinions within the spectrum of those who call themselves vegans who ultimately defines veganism personally I relate to what you're saying in that I killed the cockroaches that come into our house I remove all other insects with a glass jar but from my understanding now they have the potential to contaminate our food and to bite us and cause infections especially if left to multiply I've gone back and forth sometimes and I feel really guilty and wouldn't kill one outside the home and if you have even taken a few out in glass so it means capturing the the insect alive and putting outside in class but what you say about real life situations versus idealism resonates with me even with [ __ ] growing some of your own food which I have been doing for over a year now you kill and cause harm and disruption to the countless creatures in the earth like if you really just put down your $50.00 raw vegan cocoa goji berries from some [ __ ] Santa Monica Juicery and look at the actual earth you see it's teeming with life and the nicely manicured lawn you're sitting on is probably the site of a weekly massacre when the gardener's come through I was climbing a tree the other day to pick lemons and realize that just crushed tons of ants on the branches I'm not going for the whole well animals get killed in the harvesting of brains so let's just eat meat argument but what I am saying is that this is still a reality - at the very least acknowledge ok now I do not think killing cockroaches is good I do not think it's ok I do not think it's morally neutral I think it's part of reality that's worth talking about that's worth acknowledging because the alternative is to be in a state of denial the alternative is to write ideological propaganda that has no connection with the real lives we're living with the real challenges we're facing and that's not what I want for you can ISM to be you know this reminds me in parallel to Gary Fran Sione and Gary Fran Sione I mean he seems to me like someone who would rather be right than win he would rather be correct in an abstract sense that has nothing to do with reality than to actually make a difference so for Francia know what I'm alluding to here is his refusal to get involved with what he calls single issue causes his refusal compromise with and form coalition's with people who are non vegan right so as we pointed out in earlier videos if you actually want to save the Dolphins where you're living I like to use the example of river dolphins that we haven't Laos who do you actually have to collaborate with obviously you can't have a tiny minority of people like vegans it can't be the vegans alone who try to save these dolphins you're going to form a coalition with other people who care about you know habitat conservation wild animals you're gonna work with all kinds of other people who are not vegan who happen to care about this single issue dolphins now Francey only has his reasons for being a sort of ultra skeptic about single issue causes and they're worth urine I'm not I'm not saying his arguments are not worth hearing at all but making a political difference in reality can indeed involve a myriad of such single issue causes whether it's saving the whales saving the dolphins shutting down a particular laboratory that engages in vivisection creating particular laws that limit vivisection etc like if you want that's a law that limits vivisection obviously the vast majority of people who support that law will be non vegans and the majority people who really matter who can make a difference will themselves be research scientists or retired research scientists who have inside knowledge of how the system works and you can really help your cause in a crucial way I have no idea how anyone can be stupid enough to watch this channel and think that I'm Pro vivisection when that's a set of examples I've discussed in depth from day one on this channel from the very first video talking about veganism on this channel I've mentioned that I mention my own experience talking about vivisection with professors inside universities the difficulties surrounding those issues the difficulties of actually making a difference but on a deep level you have to ask yourself are you interested in actually making a difference or are you just interested in being right even if being right means adhering to an abstract principle like Gary France a honest version of abolitionism that actually prevents you for making a difference to me there's a sort of piety that suffuses Gary Francey on his approach where it's about it's about moral purity and it's not about winning okay and my perspective is not the care franciotti is totally wrong about single-issue causes but that these things are not mutually exclusive you can be a vegan you can be an abolitionist vegan and you can also be involved with single issue causes for example you can be a vegan and you can also be a member of a charity to save the whales to save some dolphins you can also be a member of a group that's lobbying to shut down a particular vivisection lab or to pass a particular law that may for example only help primates you know well from Francie honest perspective that speciesism he wants to be right he wants to be morally pure Gary France aione wants you to treat the life of a rat as equal to the life of a monkey well on a purely theoretical level on the level of having a debate in a university I can recognize that as a meaningful conversation half is a rat worth more or less than a monkey is a cockroach worth more or less than a monkey and Francie on his camp and many vegans would literally subscribe to the view that you know is truly religious in nature it's similar to you know some views that existed in Buddhism that all life is sacred and that the life of a cockroach literally is equal to the life of a monkey or human being we're all rats from that perspective and therefore but this is this is the part that's a false inference therefore they would demand to know how dare you try to save the monkeys well you're not saving the rats you know lab rats being tortured as opposed to monkeys mean torture and and the reality is the the gruesome terrible truth is look you can be right what I want is to win what I want is to make a difference in the real world and I'm one human being even if a more organized with a group of supporters maybe were ten human beings maybe were twenty and we can only make differences one thing at a time we can be vegan that's a change we can all make today that's why it's a wonderful cause to promote whites empowering etc okay but if we get organized we can't save all the rats and save all the cockroaches and change all the laws we have to look at one law at a time and yes you know a law that addresses just primates and labs is not gonna help deal with what happens to wild bears that's a real concern here in Canada you know does the government just shoot and kill wild bears or do they tranquilize them and relocate them to uninhabited areas of the wilderness I think that's a crucial issue for vegans and I'm sorry for myself I don't know anyone who talks about it or cares about it I don't know why you know but that's a real problem because it comes the real price tag we have empty land here in Canada to relocate bears to but it costs a lot of money for the government to provide that sort of service very straightforward ethical question but I mean you know these are the real issues you deal with and it to me it is the most self-defeating thing in the world to say well how can you save bears how can you say monkeys and ignore rats you know for example why are you why are you involved with a single-issue cause just to save these bears when at the same time the local city government is killing rats in huge numbers every day we should say you know I wish I wish this was a you know whole ridiculous hypothetical example these are the real issues that divide Ricans 2016 these are the real issues and there are people who will attack me in this video for coming out and admitting killing cockroaches is an issue it's an issue within a vegan ISM I think the vast majority of vegans who live in a hot climate do kill cockroaches now okay really quickly I used to live in Southeast Asia and countries like Laos Cambodia Thailand you man where cockroaches were a part of my life I do not fear cockroaches I do not even find them disgusting there in Southeast Asia we have cockroaches that are beautiful the huge cockroaches with wings I can remember saying to my girlfriend she was also Canadian look you know if you could have some detachment about it these cockroaches are not any less beautiful than butterflies you know why do you why do you find a butterfly why why don't you find a butterfly revolting and scary but you do find a carbonyl in Syria so there were huge [ __ ] remember some were were black with yellow stripes like a tiger stripes on their back different shapes and sizes and I went through different periods of trying to either not kill them at all trying to capture them in a glass and put the mutts up and they're alive and sometimes especially like when I was living in France sometimes looking at the whole situation I really had no choice but to kill cockroaches so I did look for alternatives but sometimes when there were no alternatives like well I got to deal with cockroaches and in these circumstances the best way I can deal with it now in France that was probably because there was no outside from hitting that apartment there was no way for me to there was there was no outside for me to take advantage of to put this covered aside and also because the actual circumstances chained and even the species of cockroach had changed I couldn't catch those cockroaches and I had a real problem when I was living in the South of France with what's Dubeau cockroaches so when I was in the South of France specifically I was a vegan who was actively killing cockroaches and I met and talked to other vegans about it when I was there and actually actually in that town I didn't know they have any vegans but I know two guys who are the opposite extreme one of whom was a lifelong you know we'll sorry nobody's a lifelong vegan activist be a vegan activist for more than ten years um you know he'd done a lot of every kind of activism and organization and he just admitted to himself look this is part of life if he wants to live in that climate in the South of France killing cockroaches as part of his real life and there was another guy there who actually who owned a vegan Reza managed he was the manager for a vegan restaurant not the owner um he was the opposite extreme where he would actually stop us and lecture us that we shouldn't kill cockroaches I can remember him very passionately handing us leaflets that explained the latest scientific research about how intelligent cockroaches are that they do feel pain etc which I completely believe probably cuz of read research about ants intelligence the level of intelligence that we now know in ants is shocking and that has changed there is research that's come along etc etc now the point of my earlier video that has the word rats in the title is vegans vegans kill rats the point of my earlier video was actually about tolerance and the people who have attacked me for daring to make that video what's ironic is that they lack exactly the virtue that was preached they have shown exactly how intolerant they are so what I said in that video is look I don't want to be right I don't want everyone to agree with me or admit that I'm right I'm telling you something here that's genuinely edgy it's genuinely shocking generally gives vegans a reason to stop and reconsider their own beliefs in their situation be the easiest thing in the world to just come on YouTube and repeat the same garbage everyone else says repeat the same vague hopes for a better future or something I want to talk about what's really real my point was if you disagree with me that's fine if you really sincerely believe that vegans should never kill rats under any circumstances the vegans should never kill cockroaches any circumstance that's fine I'm not asking you to say that I'm right what I'm asking you to do is tolerate me and this is the ultimate sense in which vegans are defeating themselves I've asked question before do you want to be right or do you want to win I understand why it's hard for vegans who are opposed to vivisection to cooperate with scientists who may be shall we say moderately oppose scientists who believe that vivisection is okay within limits they want to see less vivisection they want to see less wasteful vivisection may be able to give a really meaningful example they may want to see the elimination of the for-profit industry from vivisection to make vivisection non profit as opposed to some that's motivated by money that brings about a profound change in how an industry works even brings profound change in how an area of science works or how a department in the university works there are all kinds of limits they might want to impose in possession while they may believe as scientists that continued vivisection is essential to the progress of science can you cooperate with those people can you run a foundation can you as a vegan with your vegan friends sit down at a boardroom table and learn from those people and try to make a real change in your community in your university in the research labs in your city at your city hall in passing laws that really make a difference for the suffering of animals that actually exists in real cages where it's not an ideal where it's not an excuse you evoke during your beach vacation or it's not just you know the drum beat in the background well you film yourself smiling and laughing and dancing on the beach and going to expensive restaurants and eating raw food and bragging about weight loss and how your acne cleared up and how your sinuses are better and how your asthma is better in all this [ __ ] when we're actually talking about an eighth in a cage are you willing to make that compromise to learn from people and cooperate with people who have fundamental ethical differences what scares me is that I can see the people involved veganism today in 2016 are incapable of making those compromises and are incapable of making those differences because they're incapable of even sitting down a cooperating with me a vegan who is willing to admit that killing cockroaches is part of life becomes a pariah a vegan who is willing to admit that killing rats is part of life not saying it's good not saying it's okay but saying it's inevitable saying this is a contradiction I can acknowledge and I can talk about within veganism is a pariah in 2016 but guess what I won't be a pariah in 2025 this movement is going to change because it has to change yoga pants' can't be the future of this movement now saying it shouldn't be saying it can't be bicycles and beaches and [ __ ] cannot be the future of this movement it won't be because it can't be and as veganism grows as veganism becomes a crucial part of ecology in general we're gonna get people who are sincerely interested in making a difference and who care more about making a real-world difference than they do about merely being right
it has to change yoga pants can't be the future of this movement now saying it shouldn't be saying it can't be bicycles and beaches and [ __ ] cannot be the future of this movie it won't be because in can't see and as veganism grows as veganism becomes a crucial part of ecology in general we're gonna get people who are sincerely interested in making a difference and who care more about making a real-world difference than they do about your lease hey what's up this video is going to talk about the specific issue of killing cockroaches and why it matters but in preface I just want to ground this in a sense of realism as to what the situation globally really is right now take a look at this chart I'll try to leave this on screen long enough that you can pause it if you want to and get a good long look I made these charts myself I downloaded the statistics directly from United Nations organization called the FAO the Food and Agriculture Organization I put in the numbers I also put together this particular illustration if you're watching this you can probably remember the year 2000 maybe for a few teenagers who watch my channel it's a distant memory or they can't remember at all but the year 2000 is not ancient history ok the amount of meat being produced in the United States in Asia in the world in total has only increased and it has increased dramatically since the year 2000 ever since I've been involved with veganism online I have heard what I would consider harebrained statements from my fellow vegans about how we're winning we're transforming the world how this is an era of a new awareness etc etc and the statistics do not back that up we have lived through an era of the massive expansion of industrialized meat agriculture ok we have lived through an era of the intensification of the exploitation of animals on a scale that is almost impossible to imagine that's our generation not our parents not our grandparents it's us now all right you want to kid yourself into thinking this is the Age of Aquarius if you want some kind of hippie ego trip that we're members of a wonderful generation that's turning things around that's not true take a careful look at the yellow line showing the amount of chicken being slaughtered in the United States there is a dip in the line around the year 2008 it might have lagged one year might be there in 2009 okay that didn't happen because of street protests from vegans it didn't happen for any reason like that happened because of the financial crisis stock market crash in the United States especially a collapse in real estate prices back in those years 2007 8 2007 2008 2009 right there was an economic bubble in those years that burst ok we as vegans as a tiny ethical minority have never had an impact comparable to that one year's economic crisis we are not bringing this line down now if you read the reports in the Food and Agriculture Organization read the actual reports the actual research articles not the propaganda other vegans make out of it you will see that they expect the world's total meat production is going to continue to increase by another 70% ok some places like the United States may be reaching their limit where they just can't economically produce that much more meat because they're producing such an enormous amount already and also places the united states now have to compete more and more with other countries with cheaper sources of meat that's a real reason why meat production may decline in the US or may at least flatten out now simply because Americans may be able to import more meat from Mexico Argentina Colombia Brazil I don't know that's part of the negotiations over the trans-pacific partnership and other trade agreements we may get more of a globalized market for meat and that will have impacts that'll have impacts on a scale much larger than our tiny ethically defined movement okay this is reality facing up to this reality doesn't make you ante vegan it's the most essential part of being Pro vegan all right and the experience I've had with running this channel and before just when I was at a blog was just the Internet it is hilarious to me that people will attack you for not basically repeating propaganda half-truths and lies whether it's about the supposed success the vegan movement itself or whether it's about how much water a vegan diet supposedly saves I had an earlier video on that here and people were shocked guess what pork is actually quite water efficient guess what the main savings of water you see your diet as a vegan is eating grains not fruit and you can have a diet that consists of grains and pork that uses less water than a vegan diet that eats a lot of luxury fruit nuts or raw vegan diet math is not that simple people really complain them in the video why would you say this because it's true because it's important because it's salient and meaningful to what we do and because my beliefs are not based on a lie all right I'm not here selling you a lie I'm not here selling you false hope I'm here to present real hope and real problems and basically if we can't even talk about the problems then we're never going to get to the stage of talking about solutions or of actually bringing about solutions and of course that's depressing to me that's the reality that's a person who becomes vegan today a lot of people who become vegan want to pretend these problems are already sold rather than looking and any on a self-critical way about what are the problems what are we actually doing to solve them what is the future get a mean for any of us or all of us all right now coming back to the particular puzzle I want to address in this video now that I've basically grounded this with just just two little line charts in how dire and how terrible the situation is and that it's getting worse every day and that it has gotten worse and worse by the millions of animals within our lifetime since the year 2000 in reality the situation has gotten worse and worse and worse and this by the way I've made charts like this even for countries like Taiwan that have a very well-organized vegan minority very vocal very public very visible vegan presence in Taiwan but guess what meanwhile the intensification the expansion the efflorescence of animal agriculture has continued alongside that even in these intensely Buddhist countries like Taiwan Sri Lanka Thailand all of them okay the number of animals being killed per day has increased it increased within our lifetimes okay what used to be a Western technology of factory farming has been more and more globalized it's happening in Africa it's happening in Asia and it just increased in scale within the United States within Europe that is our generation that's what's going on right now that's the trend veganism is not the trend all right I wish it was but like I say I'm not here to sell you phony good news I'm not here to sell you false hope and to me that's anti-vegan to me what the the distinctive thing that marks us vegan that unifies us that shows who's really vegan and who's not is that you are willing to face up to that truth witnessing that truth and admitting it to yourself how terrible and how terrifying it is being a witness to the grim reality of animal agriculture at a massive scale that's what makes us vegan that's what we have in common not bicycles not bikinis not yoga not even you know your food preferences now ah so I got this letter about killing cockroaches I'm gonna read it to you from a regular viewer this guy lives in Los Angeles I am leaving him anonymous for obvious reasons because if I said who he was he would receive hate mail the same way I receive hate mail for daring to admit that these are real issues that matter in veganism so he writes I just listened to your last video the one about rats so that's referring to a video that says vegans kill rats in the title and that like this video has a somewhat nuanced and sophisticated argument that many of my fellow vegans completely missed the point of he says you know you know what it raises the thought that always comes to me over and over again with so many varying beliefs feelings opinions within the spectrum of those who call themselves vegans who ultimately defines veganism personally I relate to what you're saying in that I killed the cockroaches that come into our house I remove all other insects with a glass jar but from my understanding now they have the potential to contaminate our food and to bite us and cause infections especially if left to multiply I've gone back and forth sometimes and I feel really guilty and wouldn't kill one outside the home and if you have even taken a few out in glass so it means capturing the the insect alive and putting outside in class but what you say about real life situations versus idealism resonates with me even with [ __ ] growing some of your own food which I have been doing for over a year now you kill and cause harm and disruption to the countless creatures in the earth like if you really just put down your $50.00 raw vegan cocoa goji berries from some [ __ ] Santa Monica Juicery and look at the actual earth you see it's teeming with life and the nicely manicured lawn you're sitting on is probably the site of a weekly massacre when the gardener's come through I was climbing a tree the other day to pick lemons and realize that just crushed tons of ants on the branches I'm not going for the whole well animals get killed in the harvesting of brains so let's just eat meat argument but what I am saying is that this is still a reality - at the very least acknowledge ok now I do not think killing cockroaches is good I do not think it's ok I do not think it's morally neutral I think it's part of reality that's worth talking about that's worth acknowledging because the alternative is to be in a state of denial the alternative is to write ideological propaganda that has no connection with the real lives we're living with the real challenges we're facing and that's not what I want for you can ISM to be you know this reminds me in parallel to Gary Fran Sione and Gary Fran Sione I mean he seems to me like someone who would rather be right than win he would rather be correct in an abstract sense that has nothing to do with reality than to actually make a difference so for Francia know what I'm alluding to here is his refusal to get involved with what he calls single issue causes his refusal compromise with and form coalition's with people who are non vegan right so as we pointed out in earlier videos if you actually want to save the Dolphins where you're living I like to use the example of river dolphins that we haven't Laos who do you actually have to collaborate with obviously you can't have a tiny minority of people like vegans it can't be the vegans alone who try to save these dolphins you're going to form a coalition with other people who care about you know habitat conservation wild animals you're gonna work with all kinds of other people who are not vegan who happen to care about this single issue dolphins now Francey only has his reasons for being a sort of ultra skeptic about single issue causes and they're worth urine I'm not I'm not saying his arguments are not worth hearing at all but making a political difference in reality can indeed involve a myriad of such single issue causes whether it's saving the whales saving the dolphins shutting down a particular laboratory that engages in vivisection creating particular laws that limit vivisection etc like if you want that's a law that limits vivisection obviously the vast majority of people who support that law will be non vegans and the majority people who really matter who can make a difference will themselves be research scientists or retired research scientists who have inside knowledge of how the system works and you can really help your cause in a crucial way I have no idea how anyone can be stupid enough to watch this channel and think that I'm Pro vivisection when that's a set of examples I've discussed in depth from day one on this channel from the very first video talking about veganism on this channel I've mentioned that I mention my own experience talking about vivisection with professors inside universities the difficulties surrounding those issues the difficulties of actually making a difference but on a deep level you have to ask yourself are you interested in actually making a difference or are you just interested in being right even if being right means adhering to an abstract principle like Gary France a honest version of abolitionism that actually prevents you for making a difference to me there's a sort of piety that suffuses Gary Francey on his approach where it's about it's about moral purity and it's not about winning okay and my perspective is not the care franciotti is totally wrong about single-issue causes but that these things are not mutually exclusive you can be a vegan you can be an abolitionist vegan and you can also be involved with single issue causes for example you can be a vegan and you can also be a member of a charity to save the whales to save some dolphins you can also be a member of a group that's lobbying to shut down a particular vivisection lab or to pass a particular law that may for example only help primates you know well from Francie honest perspective that speciesism he wants to be right he wants to be morally pure Gary France aione wants you to treat the life of a rat as equal to the life of a monkey well on a purely theoretical level on the level of having a debate in a university I can recognize that as a meaningful conversation half is a rat worth more or less than a monkey is a cockroach worth more or less than a monkey and Francie on his camp and many vegans would literally subscribe to the view that you know is truly religious in nature it's similar to you know some views that existed in Buddhism that all life is sacred and that the life of a cockroach literally is equal to the life of a monkey or human being we're all rats from that perspective and therefore but this is this is the part that's a false inference therefore they would demand to know how dare you try to save the monkeys well you're not saving the rats you know lab rats being tortured as opposed to monkeys mean torture and and the reality is the the gruesome terrible truth is look you can be right what I want is to win what I want is to make a difference in the real world and I'm one human being even if a more organized with a group of supporters maybe were ten human beings maybe were twenty and we can only make differences one thing at a time we can be vegan that's a change we can all make today that's why it's a wonderful cause to promote whites empowering etc okay but if we get organized we can't save all the rats and save all the cockroaches and change all the laws we have to look at one law at a time and yes you know a law that addresses just primates and labs is not gonna help deal with what happens to wild bears that's a real concern here in Canada you know does the government just shoot and kill wild bears or do they tranquilize them and relocate them to uninhabited areas of the wilderness I think that's a crucial issue for vegans and I'm sorry for myself I don't know anyone who talks about it or cares about it I don't know why you know but that's a real problem because it comes the real price tag we have empty land here in Canada to relocate bears to but it costs a lot of money for the government to provide that sort of service very straightforward ethical question but I mean you know these are the real issues you deal with and it to me it is the most self-defeating thing in the world to say well how can you save bears how can you say monkeys and ignore rats you know for example why are you why are you involved with a single-issue cause just to save these bears when at the same time the local city government is killing rats in huge numbers every day we should say you know I wish I wish this was a you know whole ridiculous hypothetical example these are the real issues that divide Ricans 2016 these are the real issues and there are people who will attack me in this video for coming out and admitting killing cockroaches is an issue it's an issue within a vegan ISM I think the vast majority of vegans who live in a hot climate do kill cockroaches now okay really quickly I used to live in Southeast Asia and countries like Laos Cambodia Thailand you man where cockroaches were a part of my life I do not fear cockroaches I do not even find them disgusting there in Southeast Asia we have cockroaches that are beautiful the huge cockroaches with wings I can remember saying to my girlfriend she was also Canadian look you know if you could have some detachment about it these cockroaches are not any less beautiful than butterflies you know why do you why do you find a butterfly why why don't you find a butterfly revolting and scary but you do find a carbonyl in Syria so there were huge [ __ ] remember some were were black with yellow stripes like a tiger stripes on their back different shapes and sizes and I went through different periods of trying to either not kill them at all trying to capture them in a glass and put the mutts up and they're alive and sometimes especially like when I was living in France sometimes looking at the whole situation I really had no choice but to kill cockroaches so I did look for alternatives but sometimes when there were no alternatives like well I got to deal with cockroaches and in these circumstances the best way I can deal with it now in France that was probably because there was no outside from hitting that apartment there was no way for me to there was there was no outside for me to take advantage of to put this covered aside and also because the actual circumstances chained and even the species of cockroach had changed I couldn't catch those cockroaches and I had a real problem when I was living in the South of France with what's Dubeau cockroaches so when I was in the South of France specifically I was a vegan who was actively killing cockroaches and I met and talked to other vegans about it when I was there and actually actually in that town I didn't know they have any vegans but I know two guys who are the opposite extreme one of whom was a lifelong you know we'll sorry nobody's a lifelong vegan activist be a vegan activist for more than ten years um you know he'd done a lot of every kind of activism and organization and he just admitted to himself look this is part of life if he wants to live in that climate in the South of France killing cockroaches as part of his real life and there was another guy there who actually who owned a vegan Reza managed he was the manager for a vegan restaurant not the owner um he was the opposite extreme where he would actually stop us and lecture us that we shouldn't kill cockroaches I can remember him very passionately handing us leaflets that explained the latest scientific research about how intelligent cockroaches are that they do feel pain etc which I completely believe probably cuz of read research about ants intelligence the level of intelligence that we now know in ants is shocking and that has changed there is research that's come along etc etc now the point of my earlier video that has the word rats in the title is vegans vegans kill rats the point of my earlier video was actually about tolerance and the people who have attacked me for daring to make that video what's ironic is that they lack exactly the virtue that was preached they have shown exactly how intolerant they are so what I said in that video is look I don't want to be right I don't want everyone to agree with me or admit that I'm right I'm telling you something here that's genuinely edgy it's genuinely shocking generally gives vegans a reason to stop and reconsider their own beliefs in their situation be the easiest thing in the world to just come on YouTube and repeat the same garbage everyone else says repeat the same vague hopes for a better future or something I want to talk about what's really real my point was if you disagree with me that's fine if you really sincerely believe that vegans should never kill rats under any circumstances the vegans should never kill cockroaches any circumstance that's fine I'm not asking you to say that I'm right what I'm asking you to do is tolerate me and this is the ultimate sense in which vegans are defeating themselves I've asked question before do you want to be right or do you want to win I understand why it's hard for vegans who are opposed to vivisection to cooperate with scientists who may be shall we say moderately oppose scientists who believe that vivisection is okay within limits they want to see less vivisection they want to see less wasteful vivisection may be able to give a really meaningful example they may want to see the elimination of the for-profit industry from vivisection to make vivisection non profit as opposed to some that's motivated by money that brings about a profound change in how an industry works even brings profound change in how an area of science works or how a department in the university works there are all kinds of limits they might want to impose in possession while they may believe as scientists that continued vivisection is essential to the progress of science can you cooperate with those people can you run a foundation can you as a vegan with your vegan friends sit down at a boardroom table and learn from those people and try to make a real change in your community in your university in the research labs in your city at your city hall in passing laws that really make a difference for the suffering of animals that actually exists in real cages where it's not an ideal where it's not an excuse you evoke during your beach vacation or it's not just you know the drum beat in the background well you film yourself smiling and laughing and dancing on the beach and going to expensive restaurants and eating raw food and bragging about weight loss and how your acne cleared up and how your sinuses are better and how your asthma is better in all this [ __ ] when we're actually talking about an eighth in a cage are you willing to make that compromise to learn from people and cooperate with people who have fundamental ethical differences what scares me is that I can see the people involved veganism today in 2016 are incapable of making those compromises and are incapable of making those differences because they're incapable of even sitting down a cooperating with me a vegan who is willing to admit that killing cockroaches is part of life becomes a pariah a vegan who is willing to admit that killing rats is part of life not saying it's good not saying it's okay but saying it's inevitable saying this is a contradiction I can acknowledge and I can talk about within veganism is a pariah in 2016 but guess what I won't be a pariah in 2025 this movement is going to change because it has to change yoga pants' can't be the future of this movement now saying it shouldn't be saying it can't be bicycles and beaches and [ __ ] cannot be the future of this movement it won't be because it can't be and as veganism grows as veganism becomes a crucial part of ecology in general we're gonna get people who are sincerely interested in making a difference and who care more about making a real-world difference than they do about merely being right