(1hr+) Lauren Kenzy on The Permanent Vacation Podcast.

you know what I'm about I've noticed yen
so you know the veganism in a lot of ways to attract some of the most you know deranged and you know lost people in society understand those people they don't have any purpose in life you know they're struggling they empty souls I feel like even for me and we said this more looking at the time that I found you know YouTube and veganism on YouTube I was looking for something something bigger a higher power something to be a part of you know and I might be one of the most lost souls on the YouTube here empty souls moves in this is what friend enduring want to do every day granting to each other I remember it was not too long ago that durianrider and the illustrious Julia Bohr were were both claiming that somehow I was in a sexual triangle with like you and Julia that like like at the same time I was trying to seduce like you in Scotland and Julia and Chiangmai and they were constantly including you in the category of underage girls so like the amount of imagination involved here is like one that you're supposed to be I don't even know how young 15 just thinking of it now it's so absurd and just ridiculous the other thing is like you know I mean most men kind of have a type if there are some men who would want to pursue Julia bore in her current state there are some men for whom that's what they're looking for and there are some men who would prefer a an extremely slim woman like yourself at the time you had only recently I think you know been you know gotten out of the hospital and so on you know you were really in recovery curricula puts of the idea that I'm seducing two women of such dramatically different descriptions on two continents I know I know in China gets all to come together in Chiang Mai and me and that I could be sent to prison for this you know if there was if there was a guy doing that if there was a guy trying to seduce you it's gone I don't know maybe he'd be a nice guy is that really like a criminal and I just just thought of it it's just sort of that yes and the fact I was like even when I do it later there was nothing to even suggest that he just came out with it yourself he made it all up and has mind but it's just shows like has made doesn't it just shows like what has thinking is all about it because even Julia herself doesn't think that then think anything that came in that's true but at one point I remember Julia was kind of elaborating a story on her blog that I was this mystery man who was seducing a tremendous number of women in Chiangmai she invented a kind of fantasy life for me but she did not fancy herself as being the main object of my desire and those in those fantasies I was apparently just trying to get as many as many women as possible so you know this reflects the the creative potential of Julia as an author one day I hope she goes on to become a romance no no no she won't Julia Julia won because when someone told me to go and check out our tumblr to do some things that she'd say that me right so I went but one of the things that she's [ __ ] today one of her last ask so just read it out to you and someone asked her hi Julia for your plans after high school do you plan to attend uni and one sentence no uni moved to Thailand or Romania and train it's hard white plans for the future basically sad it's really really sad but I've actually seen her once I don't read her tumblr I was only reading it back when I was directly having to respond to it but I have seen her refer to her future plans as being modeling of some kind and then people were into her and said look you're delusional do you really think you can be a model and you know she did have some answers her answers were not completely stupid she said well you know basically she was talking about living the same kind of life that freely lives which is not you know frillies not a model per se she's not paid by a modeling agency but yeah we're all allowed to dream all right um you know it's it's ironic obviously I don't want this whole conversation to be about Julia but one day I was I was going to the gym here I have a very nice gym the video the video upload today I should shows you my gym for a couple of seconds and I thought you know what the greatest irony is that probably like if I was talking to Julia's parents I would say you know what you can do with Julia you could actually send her to Kunming the city of living in China she could actually become a student at my school where I'm learning Chinese and she could work out of this gym every day you know like obviously would be though it'd be the worst scandal in the world if I actually invited Julia here to join me but you know with this school we have most of the students are old like some of them are over 60 most of them middle-aged people we do actually have like 15 year old 16 year old students here also who are you know taking care of you know the school they kind of treat them differently obviously they don't know quite the same rights and freedoms that I do and there are there are parents who send their kids here at 15 and 16 to study Chinese without without a parent which surprised me but they do so I just say if you know it is an irony of ironies that yeah actually I could recommend that Julia live exactly my lifestyle and you know she'd lose weight too she'd work out of the gym here she does she'll get in shape anyway then that would be that would be a scandal of course you invited her there could you imagine the speculation that people would come up with right right it's a shame I remember - she got not even hate mail but just like puzzled mail like I remember people writing in to her and asking like why do you think aisel is attracted to you like he's you're not smart or interesting why do you so this skill that you're working out like em oh is that the International people come there to wear in Chinese is that what it is well so there was a you know I used to live in Scotland I used to have a Scottish accent I can tell you but that a second but even there you managed to to trick me cuz you said this school you're working at I thought you said this girl you're working at I thought it was this girl you're working even though even though I but I was you know I was in Glasgow I don't know if I mentioned you probably did somewhere but you know I was in Glasgow when I was I think 12 turning 13 I think during that like year-and-a-half and during that time I actually had I by the end of it I had a perfect Scottish accent and people people did not believe I was Canadian anymore because I managed to blend in but anyway yeah so I I remember practicing some of the small vowel changes like you know consistently the word fish was instead fish you know just some of the some of the changes like that but yeah I did I did get used to it and we saw you were asking about the the school I'm at not the girl I'm at all right yeah we should also be a good question cool yeah this school you know say it's actually the most positive experience I've had in organized education of any kind in some ways like it's really grotty like you know just the you know my conditions are not luxurious there's construction noise that said the window right now there's there are mosquitos you know just the the actual bathrooms and plumbing and that kind of thing are not impressive but the core educational experience of sitting down with a teacher for four hours a day every day and working on the language is better than anything I've seen at any university or of course any any high school or anything else I've ever had it's better than anything I've seen myself in a Buddhist monastery and in some ways have said my life here is in some ways has some of the ideal elements of being in a Buddhist monastery and in some ways ideal elements of signing up for the the military or whatever which have been other kind of possibilities in my life but it is it is just a private for-profit school it's not the government doesn't give it any money it's not part of university some some people decided to to get involved they named it after your Scottish poet it's named after Keats Keats of Scottish wasn't he he is sorry couldn't you know she uh Keats so this is this is the Keats school believe it or not so we have not read any poetry of Keats in Chinese translation yet but enough I've actually asked them if they can sell me like a t-shirt that says Keats because that's the name it says Keats in English notices Keats in Chinese that's it it's like you know yeah yeah man I'm into Scottish poetry and Chinese translation but they have like you know the government here they do translate all that stuff anyone who's considered a genius must be officially translated Chinese so I'm sure there are very good translations of Keats into Chinese for me to study when I reached that level but yes so it's it's in some ways a really humble set up and in some ways just for me personally I really dig it and I'm now I'm now assuming I'm gonna stay until December which most people here regard is insane because most people if they live like this for two weeks they start going crazy you know they want to have a more luxurious lifestyle or you know not even luxurious they just want to do their own thing they want to be able to walk around naked or something you know in your own apartment in your own apartment you can walk around naked you know what I mean you you kind of in that sense here you never really relax occasionally say Lauren it's such an irony I don't think I've told you this I told a few people but my parents actually like asked me if I wanted to do that what like just a couple weeks ago they were like oh well like seeing as your job in China didn't work out do you want to just take a year off and like live in Thailand and like and there they actually said to me and they're like you know like your income from patreon it's probably enough and we can help you out like you know they'd help me out if I had a problem or needed an airplane ticket or something this this is the opposite a video and seem to people yeah so my parents and offered me to like king of like like pay for me I'm just gonna take a hero in Thailand I can just imagine at that video I'm gonna move into extorted vegan Ava and Joe best you know the ire the other irony is though that I do I do speak Thai I was just there speaking Thai I speak Thai better than I speak Chinese now so likens in a lot of ways life in Thailand is more easy for me and interesting and it is like a weird what-if question in my life like I'm glad I got divorced I don't I don't regret my divorce that's why I talk about it openly but you know my wife and I just before we got divorce we moved to Taiwan together we're in Taiwan for a couple of months then we finally split up but another option at that time if I'd wanted it I could have then you know moved to Thailand and taking a year off and then like now I didn't really think about it because I just I don't want to relax I don't want to be on vacation you know I want to be I've got ambitions even though my ambitions are really not about about earning money you know doing other things anyway look I don't need to ask that question if it's uncomfortable but I was just wondering because I heard you and you and cheetah talking about it and I was just wondering you know your own status as someone who is diagnosed interaction talk about anorexia obviously I see that as a totally positive thing on your YouTube channel and in your digital life but I just wondered how does that actually play out at a gym or in the personal trainer or side of your life or is it just never mentioned does it just not talked about that means lots of it I mean because I'm Kaila I'm like one of the people who have one friend I'm small and I'm petite and like people will not listen I'm thin and I'm canine I've got muscle and I want like kinda gymnastic Ethan saw Cana I like like physically it's not much of an issue but safer logically for me sometimes it can be quite difficult if you know I mean because a lot of my clients are just you know that they're so everyone was just so obsessed with way getting abs and losing best but afar and everything so psychologically it can be quite difficult I knew one girl pardon me uh just about the time I started University she was diagnosed with an American she was hospitalized so I just I do not know how extreme she was when I knew her she had no physical signs of it but she had been put in hospital for a little while and both before and after she was in the hospital her job was working at a store that was called the weight loss shop where she sold you were her full-time job was selling like you know miracle weight-loss powders and [ __ ] you know like whatever green he thought so like you know and I mean I guess the only thing that maybe made that easier I think her clients were almost entirely elderly women they were like women over over 60 but still it was like well so like every week you talk to a therapist for several hours about how all the weight loss stuff is [ __ ] and then you go into a shop and sell exactly me I've never been like I've always came in from retail pop notes and I've never yeah I mean I'll get companies like hair belief and weight loss pills and all this contact and they say yeah would you like to team up with us and I'm just no because I took I haven't so something that I don't believe in anyway and but you know the thing I was like the tercel trainer that's dead skin again to acid pool assim I mean I've been an athlete my whole life I've always been involved in sports and I've always been MJC done that you know some as a big passion for me but then I guess it like being a runner and things then you know what like the Analects I just can't go even worse and and things so it's not like I just became a pair so Trina I just became interested in sport with my eating disorder but you know I'm not interested in no helping people to like healthy mind say and healthy body I'm not into the catotti weight-loss Beachbody stuff and everything so it's kinda it's definitely I I want to directly respond to something you said a minute ago and it relates to everything real it's the durianrider relates to trying out relates to Scotland even but you know um the contrast you were saying that you've always been an athlete you've always been involved in sport I can say the opposite I have never been an athlete I've never been involved with sport even when I was doing the long-distance cycling for me it wasn't sport it was always just about being prepared for physical violence you know and you know again like honestly Scotland was part of that when I was in Glasgow it's a long time ago Glasgow is a different town but Glasgow was really a very two-fisted fighting town and you know the Catholics would be at the Protestants and the pradhans to beat up the Catholics just this very you know miscellaneous violence to to Glasgow at that time and you know again I think you probably get this impression but channel like I'm not someone who goes out seeking violence by any means but like here you know my Chinese teachers again we're talking in Chinese but really simple sentences and they ask me things like oh so why do you go to the gym like what sport do you play and I tell them honestly in Chinese like one of my answers was like I don't play any sport like I exercise to be ready for fight because that's like I can't say it in a more sophisticated way in Chinese but that you know that that really has been the road of my life whether I was working at a gym or times when I really didn't have access to a gym had to come up with other creative ways to do it and you know um it's funny the ways people pick up on it a new student who just arrived here and I do have to physically sit and talk with these people even if I don't like them um but anyway they're not they're not all terrible but some of them are pretty terrible but one guy sat down he said he's about the same age as me maybe a couple years younger a nice-looking white American guy blond wears glasses he just doesn't look tough he looks like a nice guy and he was telling me about all the harassment he gets on the street see her like just like adult men like harassing him and like like one example like he was walking in the street and some guys who all seem to be on the same team like maybe they were a rugby team let Chinese Chinese guys on a rugby team or something just started shouting at him in English like [ __ ] you [ __ ] yourself like they were just shouting the only insults they knew in English which is not very good and you're like seeing how he would react I just sat and I said to him like it's amazing cuz like let me tell you like I don't think I'm the toughest guy on the block but literally nobody here even looks at me funny like it was just amazing to sit there next to a guy he'd only been here for a couple days and he already had this amazing experience with people kind of taking a poke at him on the street and you know so from Glasgow to Kunming it's just you know in that that's also a sense in which it shapes my life is just all the problems you don't have and all the things you don't get into and that's you know so and you know that that obviously that side of my character was really brought to the forefront with the durianrider thing and Chiangmai in a way that I never thought it would be because I mean you know my life is boring because I mean give it are me when I was when I was falling doing later and then I first heard of it you and all the things I said this was before the thing that I gotta go but I I'm nothing nothing about you but the way that he like painted this picture look good I thought you were that's criminal that's CIA guy that's absolutely horrible like that's crazy I don't know gangster those gangster guy and that's really key mate she's like see like and then and then I was watching your fatty was more recently and you're sitting there laughing like yeah my life is boarding and your son and there's like little room and China and stuff and I'm like I I'm so embarrassed I actually believed 30 no you don't you know and actually when you actually see what your life has compared to for Thought like duty and right there was paint it to be in all these images in my head and all this fantasy you know so it's so crazy and the flip side of that the other side of the coin is I think there are always things we believe about durianrider and like you forget that you believe them until something reminds you of them or challenging them like to give you an example like years ago he probably still says back remember during writers saying that he has like a lot of friends on the African Olympic teams like Olympic athletes from Kenya like oh yeah like he would say like oh yeah I've trained with those guys like those guys are friends of mine and then like something reminds you of it Eve whatever a year later something you're thinking has durianrider ever actually talked to anyone on the Kenyan Olympic running team like like they haven't appeared to say like it's it's not even something I'd like really questioned like you know I don't know why not why wouldn't he be friends with some Olympic athletes from Kenya and then he realized like he lies about everything else including like just lying that he has friends who are gonna beat me up like that to like it so it's a really weird thing when you're there when you're actually there in Chiangmai it just it just blows my mind that someone would lie about that and the reality is he doesn't have those friends he's alone you know and like one of the reasons why he spent so much time with Julia Bohr is because he really is alone he neither has the friends from the Kenyan Olympic team nor does he have the kind of tough guy friends he's sort of bragging about you know I think that became so obvious recently because like obviously what he done to you and we basically the view during radar being exposed to so and you know people who we're his friends such as vegan gains and you know PR people who worked on why don't we test these ass in some cases well you know you've got vegan gains white twins people just were like veces not on and so they came they don't turn against them but they don't like go with the floor welcome and he sees that as backstabbing so no like obviously then he didn't like that so then he rates them off there are no they are no longer his friends okay and then now all these videos are on here look at the up-and-coming channels and the raffle for movement and it's all these like you don't know video honor and I think I've taken see a part of it just laughing up so you've got vegan a about you get Julia Boer you've got all these like other yo simian right I'll sue me and I think is there too right yeah yeah and it so it's like and yeah I some man and stuff in it so it's like he's he's like getting these are all my new friends it's like that that's who is late to I mean he's got no friends so now he's like generally senior people and and Cana training them up in the rotor for we so that they wouldn't backstab them you know that that's what I see as anyway and I don't know I I agree with you and I'm gonna be self-critical in this agreement because many people think this is something I have in common with durianrider and it is actually different like many people so I think the root of that for durianrider is paranoia and like the word paranoia is funny because we kind of use it too often but we don't use it very seriously like we say that kind of character is on a TV show or paranoid but like exactly what you just described with during writer the reason why like you know there's no reason why he shouldn't be friends with vegan gains still today like I know both directly into really vegan gains wanted to remain his friend but he needed durianrider to kind of just be reasonable you know for during writer to say oh look I [ __ ] up I'm sorry you know for during writer to kind of modify his behavior in a friendly way which during writer can't do so it to me it's fundamentally a paranoid behavior for him that either you're a hundred percent is supporter or you're his enemy because he suspects you he's suspicious he thinks you're plotting he thinks you're trying to destroy him you know that's the way he treats vegan gains even or these other people no I just say people think that about me because I called a natural vegan an idiot and think well I called I called something she said stupid I didn't even call her stupid but whatever um and you know I under I really do understand why people say that about me because they think I'm playing a similar game to durianrider and in a sense it's not even insulting to me but you know as it happens psychologically it's not true I'm really not paranoid and in the other hand I find I find it very hard to even be embittered towards people I really do feel a kind of love for my fellow vegans which you know even the people who are idiots even the people who you know I really feel like if only they could put the pieces of the puzzle together in a different way you know there's so much we have in common we want the same goals you know I actually do feel a kind of brotherly love and even affection for some of these people who are totally despicable like vegan Ava I mean thinking Ava's a joke but I don't hate her I'm not mad I find it hard I find it hard to be mad at durianrider I'll just say that oh my god yeah well you think I'd get people think that about you because I think at honestly the people who say that about you I think they honestly don't watch your videos they just click on your videos and hate you like without even watching them because I mean everything that you've just said there are you you're like explain that and one of your recent videos of it tolerance and things and um you know that's exactly what you've said there and unnatural be vegan obviously there was things that used s agreed wealth on and that's completely fine this is mature we're not all gonna give each other you just made them your videos that yesterday I think about saying that there's something like the thing that you don't I can even cheat out on but like wow we don't need to agree on everything you know but then people wait during either just think that you have to agree 100% and like you were saying with vegan either there and oh yeah I'll give you another example of it Julia borer and she plain obviously I came out and I said look I'm not like my Betty I was like I can't support doing right there anymore and and everything and then ready are we she completely deflate indeed me and on our tumblr she received backstabbin bet you know that said I was like oh my god just because I was better then I threatened her things and I don't want my songs are saying because people were asking and I was saying look Julie I can fall we didn't meet her as she wants I hope she does can't open her mind a little bit but I mean as far as I'm concerned we're still friends but then she completely vote me off and just because I did not support daddy duty and Raider you know so that's that's the difference but people need I think if people grew up then you know well hopefully people will grow up I know exactly what you're seeing yeah I didn't know I feel like I mean you know I really do feel like what happened to me in Chiang Mai it's not because it's me not because of my ego but because I was this kind of canary in the coal mine I think it is a turning point for for digital veganism maybe for veganism in general and like everything that's happening in Chiangmai it's not that dangerous if people can laugh at it you know but like you yourself have been through exactly the transition there was a time when you took like the Chiang Mai scene deadly serious when it was serious to you and then at a certain point it just becomes a joke you know when it kind of loses all power of you but on a bigger scale I think I think it's happened to tons of people and it's something I never could have done intentionally I just kind of happened to be there I happen to be one of the people it was focused on but you know like everyone is laughing about it now and you know channels like Jo vegan and vegan cheetah they obviously show that off but I'd like to think that the danger like the cult like danger has really been averted for the long-term because we've taken something used to be so powerful and we've exposed it for what it was and now people can laugh about it which is great too right yeah I think and I think you're right other the danger of and things and always have a scene when I was in which he or the other day and we watch we and we were stood in right didn't he he may have I know because for the comedy aspect of it of course I think most people see them as feats and we can't actually believe that some of the stuff that we're seeing and sad is that as I think that's a truth but there's something is well worth a durianrider and the wattle forth banquet I know you're seeing like as most theme to this anymore but I think for some people it can be dangerous because it seems to be that the people that are attracted to that and that kina we'll call it the cult anyway because I can't think of a better name Florida but the and I'm speaking from my own experience here and obviously Chi has been there as well as people who Eva are very young like Julia born young and influential or people who come from in a background or even mental illness or affection or something and are really in a place where they're lost in our life it's the same thing that other coats do that are not like righto for you know and honorable people get drawn into this because you feel personally from personal experience when I'm feeling you're fighting and in disorder our mental illness it can be very a very lonely a very lonely fate and you look for people and you find something and there will come in and it's hard to explain but you're really attracted to that and I think for some and when you look at the people that actually fall a little four-note I mean they either are really young or they just didn't seem mentally oh dear look I I agree with I agree with everything you just said and that is a small number of people from it really is a cult you know I agree like you know but the the total number of people that I don't know if it's fifty people I don't know if it's a hundred people but like really it could be fewer than 50 people but there definitely are some people you know like including vegan Ava in my opinion you know who for whom that has that cult-like intestine I got to meet several of them face to face in in Chiangmai actually k1 I can mention by name Momo she appeared on my channel recently she's an Asian girl but she speaks English fluently so she was in the video showing um just showing how lame the Chiang Mai festival is well I was talking about it you know I was narrating it but you know Momo when I met her in in Chiang Mai you know she said hi to me in like one word she she saw me she knew exactly who I was and knew the significance of my being there and you know that she then saw Leah so you've probably seen the video with Leah on my channel so you know each other cool you know so leah is now like 20 years old but she dropped at a high school like that you know it's pretty cult-like you know her whole experience even though she doesn't talk about the way she talks about in a very relaxed way which is cool but still it's it's pretty messed up and among other things like this whole cult ultimately is about weight loss and fitness and Leah gained and a ton of weight whatever was I forget 30 kilograms what she gained a lot of weight and just nobody ever mentions it you know because like they can't lose faith in the unlimited calories you know you know balance your [ __ ] you know glycogen stores all this all this [ __ ] that during writers been preaching for so long they have to believe in it so if someone's gaining fat you either ignore it or you justify it the same way Julia Bohr does but like it was just even though not a lot was said like Momo was there she looked at me with this steely gaze and then she walked over and gave Lia a hug and a smile and looked at Lia and then moved away from her and it was like you could see I mean oh I do not know maybe now maybe Momo has gotten out of her system maybe a month in the cult was enough for her but like in those few moments of her interaction with me and Lea like she knew like Lia was an outcast Lia had been kicked out of the cult and like to say anything to Lia was dangerous you know what I mean you could you could not be friends with Lea anymore it really was cult-like and just the look in her eyes and the fear and everything else and of course Leo wasn't like that Ali at Leah's just totally relaxed and doesn't give a [ __ ] that's that's what Lea's like I think all the time anyway but she's kind of ignoring all this this kind of tension in the air and you know I'm certain for Hannah Chloe you know I'm certain for Hannah it would have been exactly the same but even worse because there was a sexual component you know where it's just like no like durianrider and or freely have declared you no longer human nobody can talk to you and most we can kind of silently smile so yeah that that that part of it is real before a small number of people yeah as I seen because like Legion isn't really shouldn't be like that it shouldn't be about the segregation I mean there's enough of that and unfortunately it just seems to be that king of what they're creating and it's becoming even more so because I don't know if you've seen the criteria to actually qualify for the bait face next year make sure you have to well is a certain amount of males and stuff on struggle but you've also got to have your own rota for YouTube channel and everything I mean so that they're like segregating it even more and that's just I mean fairness that's something that you add to but it's the fact that they are they're doing this in the name of activism in the name of veganism and it's not yeah well anyway I mean look though and those guys those guys the ones I've met they are a bunch of losers I mean I'm sorry the guys who actually do that who followed Dorian Ryder's commands and one of them just confessed to me he was like oh well you know like before Duran Ryder forced us to do this cuz like you know he wasn't allowed to attend the festival if you didn't have a bike and a Strava account blah blah blah he mentioned he was a go like I was into other sports and he mentioned what the sports world just always leave it anonymous but it was like you know the guy is pathetic anyway but it's like you know that too it's like okay so you you bought a bicycle and you started kind of living a lie even though and it's not that he has no athleticism he has some other sport he'd rather be doing you know seeing part of this but I think you know when you get away from the hardcore cult members on a larger scale I think what they really exploited was the loneliness of being vegan you know you mentioned loneliness is driving the cult members yeah that's true but the softcore followers I think they're mostly people who just feel so alone you know even if you still love your family you feel alienated from your family like I don't I don't give a [ __ ] about the other students here at this school but you know they literally eat pieces of dead cow and you know yogurt and [ __ ] in front of me every day I generally don't sit and eat with them at all uh you know uh you know look maybe I'm an [ __ ] anyway and it's irrelevant but like you know it's true your ability to form relationships with your your fellow man whether its students at your school coworkers whatever I just do think all over the world people who are not psychologically weak who are not susceptible to the cult-like aspects still that loneliness and wanting to belong to something I think that was very very powerful in drawing people in and then it was combined with images of you know the beach of just just uh basically an escapist fantasy so then a much larger number of people were participating in on that level and it fed guests loneliness fundamentally was was what was being preyed upon their I mean yeah I mean I still feel like that's less keynote like I don't do so much anymore because I don't know my youtube channel seems they've grown and I'm connecting with so a few cool no and it's amazing like I feel so lonely even though boy it's that you tell you know but I don't have people in like n Glasgow or and Scotland and things and and wait we'll England and stuff and like I'll do some the apps and things soon but the fact because I mean even less weekend it's an example my mom is like she found you coming she always says you comin home like to my parents house and I was like I've got stuff to do but you know it was sadly because I just didn't even really want it want to go because what you see they just certain pieces of dead Calvin Klein of you and theory and they don't even they don't care and if you try and bring up anything I've eaten Osama and then of the ethics it's like more than like they just blanked me and you know so I don't even want to go home some things and see them to cause a rush reason so as you know I've comment that for me it's like I'm alienated all three ways like I'm not part of the meat culture I'm not part of the alcohol culture and I'm also not part of the drug culture like you know I don't use don't use marijuana don't use alcohol don't use don't you do use meat and like so much of socialization in both you know United Kingdom and in Canada it's really based on those things I was going to I'll just mention my own experience really briefly but I assume you have things like this too but you know in terms of dealing with medical doctors that can also be a really kind of painful form of alienation medical doctors who regard you as insane or unhealthy because you're vegan when my daughter was born that was part of the huge tension was that there were people inside the you know inside the hospital who had power over us doctors and nurses and what have you who treated us like [ __ ] because we were vegan and you know they kept asking questions like oh so you guys are Scientologists right you know like Scientology is this freak new religion United States it's like you know yeah it's like no and notice like that one they would they were all again in terms of my physically intimidating aspect they would always wait to like bully my wife when I was not in the room and [ __ ] about that kind of stuff and it's like you know she'd have to say to them why would you like Scientology has nothing to do with veganism you know what I mean but that kind of [ __ ] it just reflected like the extreme contempt the doctors had and their assumption that their assumption that we were opposed to modern medical science despite all the evidence to the contrary like you know in terms of the questions we asked and everything else were very Pro science just but I mean it was really awful and there were many other things with awesome experience but they were bad but I know it sounds ridiculous to talk about prejudice against vegans but in a medical context you can deal with doctors who are to say the least prejudice against you were really hostile towards you because you're being well it's actually worse when you are in your medical condition as disorder anyway you can imagine how bad that is because they may just think there is another eating disorder or you know well you need dating you need tip with calcium and deity for your bones and then they'll give you all these studies which show that um well you know in theory is good and then I'm like yeah but all these studies are only by the meat and dairy industry and you know as so as definitely but you know at the end of it is is our life's and it's like you say you're just gonna get on and just do without clear to this I suppose but hopefully and I mean I don't know what I don't know how to waste and that pair do this I mean hopefully it will happen soon but well I can't see a profit would be nice to even have some sort of impact on it that is interesting but I mean that you you in Scotland you do actually have in a sense those kinds of debates with doctors they actually talk to you about that stuff yeah it's pretty mad no it's the sinners I mean like in France the kind of hostility dealt with like the doctors they would not have a discussion with you which is fine because I didn't want to waste my time anyway but it would just be stuff like the doctors would say things like like that and for whatever reason they like assumed me and my ex-wife were like high school dropouts from a third world country which is also like really they assume this and they were like yes well you think you know what you're talking about but I'm a medical doctor and like you for example like um what education do you have well you like this is like really like this is so like they're not addressing veganism they're addressing whether or not you have the right to have an opinion and like my my ex-wife would say I have a PhD from Cambridge University should like they would say [ __ ] like well here in France you have to conform to our system so again this is not addressing veganism directly but it's integrated you have to conform to our system after all how do they do things in your country they'd say this to me if you like um I'm from Toronto Canada where but really we're always yes it's something us this way like we're vegans therefore we come from a third-world country anyway and this is it a major hospital in France but never like never once did I have a conversation of the type you're describing where like studies or facts were involved it was just bullying you know what I mean on the others [ __ ] hey we can change the subject but I just wanted to raise that because I thought probably did have experienced that kind of evidently you do at some point I think you probably should make a video about that because you know talking to your doctor about veganism or just dealing with your doctor when you are a vegan that probably is something a lot of people have to think about or reflect on you know yeah that's a good idea actually I will do a video on that soon is a good idea so grateful we're off track there didn't did you did you have something you wanted to press me on did you have a list of issues you wanted to confront me with I don't know what I'm you know I'm just here to get to know you you know I just really I mean all this love like to talk to me again and stuff and but it was just weak I think him just throw everything that we actually did speak you know because we've been through through quick Oh what I mean you know I mean we hadn't actually speaking spoken quite obviously just to speak to us once but I am I was just going to wait to see that him I mean I became vegan just in January this year and the main reason that I became vegan Wars for ethical reasons and know that I even knew anything about it I knew anything I don't know anything about veganism but it was through doing some yoga and also you know how yoga's kind of intertwined with Buddhist philosophy and I'm not even gonna talk to you but good is philosophy because I don't even know much about it but and I know you do and however you know the result is cane at their hands at and non-harming and the more I read about it the more I was like you know I can't and I studied earth science at University for a bet and I was like I'm really into environmental issues and honestly I couldn't call myself an environment an environmentalist or an animal lover and I'm still in this and I'm loving this unethical way style but I was scared to go vegan the cause of my eating disorder and I thought that veganism was this weird eating disorder thing and but they know what I leave it more than two and I was like you know I can't live like this anymore so I just overnight I went vegan and then since then you know wrong I went online taking a search for things and you know what happens when you google vegan you'll get a banana get one from a year and so that was keen it over so the path that I went though and well you know what just in the last one since I've stained your content that's the eyes open I stole all the things but those are my eyes two issues that have never even crossed my mind before you even the thing like the pay ownership I I'd never even thought about that as being you know it's just something that's so natural everyone's got a bloody dog or a cat pretty much so I haven't even thought about these things and no it's like you your content is just making me thank you seeing the warrant and a hole definitely and that's what I really needed it not just not just to help me be a better person out there a vegan but to help me actually the cover and pursue the company because when you've got an eating disorder or any illness or addiction quite often you get stuck often the perme mentality and you look what we don't ready with the other dean that you've done and oh god what was it there you're done a video is quite something of its softening what is it called the one on utilitarianism or the black-and-white issue I don't know they suffered in and God I'm trying I'm trying finger only I can I can get the list the videos you like but I could go on anyone is something was something so and they might just walk to me and I was like wow that is exactly I had I've been like Cana really and just caught up in my own my own problems and my own issues and cure me but then know that I'm when you become vegan and you become aware of all the other other issues that are going on in the world and our other thing is that you're going up in your videos it's like my problems are so insignificant compared to this and no it's like um every choice that I make is not just for me you know it's not all about me anymore in fact is hardly about me at all I'm not the issue the issue is meeting the world of their place and that you've got no idea how significant that is for someone who's confident it's it's it's a game-changer it really as I can't change her from me and I believin I don't really know how to describe or or if it's even making any sense I think thank you I mean first of all I can take a compliment I mean thank you very much it's it's very flattering I do I do appreciate what you said and I I think I get the pardon me I think I can't understand it because I went through similar you know changes in perspective just much earlier in life and I think you know what you say I reminds me a couple days ago I got some hate mail from someone demanding to know from me you know what is my message anyway obviously you know there was a longer statement than that but I remember just in response to that I thought you know for me subjectively I have no message like I am just like for me the ultimate message is no message like I just come on camera and talk about my life and it happens that I'm a really unusual character and when I talk about my life I talk for 20 minutes about you know vegan politics and philosophy and this kind of stuff but I do think that for the audience like if I was gonna say what is the message of my channel it probably is just in a really simple sense you know things don't have to be simple it's okay for things to be complicated and you know it's okay for us to admit that we don't have all the answers and it's okay for us to really think about these kinds of complexities and contradictions now I realize that's that sounds almost childish in its simplicity but on a very fundamental level it's not because it's such a contrast to for example to saying I can solve your eating disorder here's how you know it's it's a simple here's a simple solution to a complicated problem I can solve global warming you know here's how it's a simple solution to a complicated problem and you know this still like there's a sense in which I also want to be idealistic I want to you know I want to indulge in those things but the whole approach oh I've got an echo happening the the whole approach I take is instead to say it's okay for things to be complicated it's okay for us to you know embrace it admit the things that don't make sense they're all things we don't have answers to but obviously in having those conversations it's wonderful that people like you are asking new questions and also you know finding new answers so that's great my impression of you back when I first got to know you online I just thought you were too smart for a lot of the [ __ ] you were involved and I was right I won my bed so you're uh you your story has a happy ending for me you know well T that is a compliment but that is Cana exactly what has happened and like I said I told I said the reason how I can't and got involved in that because I was like in a very vulnerable place and just looking for something but know that I'm kind of looking back and I'm not from the outside I mean I'm like it just seems so ridiculous in your head and I'm just like I'm not like that I'm one of the people that really needs to be I really need you always see that your channel is not veganism 101 and I don't need veganism 101 I just when I got up in the morning our stuff or if see when I'm and like even making my dinner and stuff I sweat or know one day you're one of your videos like on my phone or something just and have that playing in me listening to play along just doing stuff and I'm like this is really this is going this is what I've been messing with esquina intellectually stimulating stuff as opposed to just raise your bacon eat bananas and wait what I eat you know I saw this is as it's like this is really really helping and helping me in a personal level and it's helping it just helped me to understand veganism and they'll help me hopefully to just kinda to do what I wanted doing like make a small change in the world even if that is possible I think though that is a difference say you started with ethical veganism and you know I think that is really natural where you start with those ethical questions that are focused on your cell because they're about what you're gonna do and what you're gonna eat how you're gonna live and then you look outward and figure out how does this fit into the rest of the world whether that's whether or not that's trying to save the world when though there's anything so grandiose I remember I read an article years and years ago about a sort of religious cult group in Spain and it was a Catholic group but it was kind of a weird cult-like group within Catholicism and the article was written because some some significant political figures had had become members of this group and so on and I remember one of the things that a member said do you think it was an ex-member so it wasn't her fault he said you know the reality is with Catholicism once they tell you like you've you've saved your soul and you're gonna go to heaven after you die there's nothing for you to do you know it doesn't give you a mission in the world doesn't give me anything and that's why people want to get involved with this group is because you know it's it's not enough to just be told oh now you're one of the good people now you're one of the saved people is gonna go to heaven you know people want to take on some more some more responsibility I think you know obviously I'm not saying this to flatter veganism I think that's a really natural thing for people to want to take a next step people say okay I've accepted this fundamental principle that changes my life you know how do all the other pieces fit together now because even if they don't change much you know what the truth is the other the other pieces do fit together a little bit differently whether that's your perspective and what you do at work or you know your perspective on your your pet dog or you know these other questions of you know what what is the future you know like for me what is the future of Canada or for you what is the future of Scotland I think all those things even if it's only in a subtle way they do change a bit once you've you've become an ethical vegan and a lot of people will be like or claim to be ethical vegans and I mean they are but then oh wait wait because I'm not too vegan for instance and you know so she'll see like she's a ethical vegan but then they want one thing like the pay ownership thing that she obviously feels really strongly about and you know she's not so willing to just lessen the other perspectives on that and she gets really wound up about it and quit defenses do you think that worth quite a lot of people and that you mentioned actually in your video there was at the dual fate one if we are you talk yeah you said that you lived in the border between France and Spain and they they were like the ethical vegans that you were talking to they are they were thing to talk about um certain issues but then the pool faint you know shoe you know it was like they were not so when Tracy's and talking about that you know what I mean yeah look at me oh so a natural vegan she did she started at the opposite extreme she started as a raw food you know crazy cult member who quit using fluoride and you know she lost most of her teeth I forget she says she got 14 cavities or something because she read a book that convinced her of a lot of the stupid [ __ ] freelee and durianrider still teach that you should stop brushing your teeth you should stop using soap and shampoo and you should eat nothing but raw fruit and this kind of thing so she started out at that end and she became disillusioned with it and then she built her channel on this image of herself as an ultra rational proponent of science which she isn't that's not her background in university or professionally or otherwise now my point here is not just to kind of denounce her as an idiot even though I do kind of especially after my recent experience that I regard her as a person of both limited morality and limited intellect you know like some of the glaring examples of that she actually claimed that a dog does not know that it has been castrated a male dog despite the fact that as I pointed out dogs literally lick their own balls and I have seen scientific studies looking at the fact that dogs are ever but how could they not be they can see and smell their own testicles and what-have-you and you know her dismissing any view to the contrary is as pseudoscience in I in my conversation with thera-band this comes back to my background in Buddhism she was really actively threatening to denounce me and defame me much more than she did in reference to my background in in Buddhism and so that was kind of an interesting and strange conversations I had to say to her we'll look you know I lost more than ten years in my life being a scholar of Buddhism and like you can google it yourself or here are some lengths like you can see that I actually made a big impact in that field and yeah there are there are people who call me an [ __ ] on the internet like you can find Buddhists discussion forums where people say I'm I'm a bad guy because they disagree with my views but you can also see evidence that I had like a real impact on that field I made a real contribution in terms of you know the lectures I delivered the essays I published and just the number of websites where they list like a website that lists useful resources for that area of study where they're listing a whole bunch of things with my name on it you know and I said to her straight up have you ever done anything like that Swasey in any field like do you know what that's like in the sciences or anything else you know to devote years your life to something and become a specialist and like yes some people respect you and some people hate you so I mean it is kind of a weird thing but Swasey she's not really an ethical vegan she didn't get into it through the ethical route she's not really a scientist she's not really interested in science so she's kind of sitting on the fence of a few different issues I mean for me the bottom line is I'm happy if anyone is actually earning a living by talking about veganism that's very rare and she is you know this is her her full-time job and I've had to say to her repeatedly this is not my full-time job I'm not a full-time youtuber so you know if you really want to hold me to these standards cuz her excuse for denouncing me was that I didn't spend enough time addressing her idiotic video on the topic I think if you add up if you add up the total number of minutes I've got on domestication of animals now I don't know it's a couple hours or something so I think I did plenty of time but it has say look what do you want I'm in school I'm not like you not a full-time youtuber and again not unlike you I've done other things in my life like becoming scholar Buddhism so whatever that's that's where it's gonna end with Swayze and yeah I mean it would be a better world if people like Swayze and I could cooperate something she never was interested in doing with me for whatever reason I think she's always basically disliked me and that's okay she's allowed to and to be a better world if I could cooperate with someone like durianrider - I still think it's kind of sad and kind of lame you know even as as bad as as the whole background is it would be a better world if if he could put it aside and and do something positive you know to save the planet and all that stuff right Sweezey is like a feel quick wait wait think I haven't realized I made up and you seem like my youtubers and I do like some content I think it's good free content so I put hot in it and it like pretty much all people here oh she stops obviously doing next thing what she's back to you but I think it's completely I mean like you said she was digging up stuff remover on Buddhist Wooden's from years ago just to try and make you look bad I mean that's not I can't respect that of anyone I mean okay are people yeah but it's cool that you noticed that most people don't even notice like pretty but most people just think she did nothing wrong and it's like yeah that's a significant question right anyway I go on so many people just think she's done nothing wrong and I mean okay I'm done used a few dirty invaders but it wasn't these videos from a couple years ago and you know just to make funny videos and stuff but the fact is I'm not doing that to make them look bad they've already made themselves look by then I'm just gonna win enough you have funny little things but the fact is she doesn't have enough on you and like so she wasn't going and just kina finding things that could possibly make you look bad in the context they're not even the context so people don't know what Conte expresses n and they're like oh my god that eyes or guys such a you know they hate you because of that they they hate me because Swayze tells them to hate me I mean that's that's the real - I go on yeah exactly no sorry I was I was finished there no I just say with all that stuff like I don't feel I have anything to be ashamed of and again like you can read my essays on Buddhism some of them are very boring some of them are interestingly I have one essay about vegetarianism and Buddhism you know the history of that and why it's so misunderstood I it's not that interesting it's a little bit interesting but like you know for me compared to these other people on the internet like do I feel I've wasted my life no I mean compared to durianrider like because during writer during writers attacked me on the same [ __ ] a like that's an irony Swasey may not get during writer did exactly the same thing Swayze did during writer was posting like oh look at this Buddhist forum where some people say that aisel is like a bad scholar of Buddhism it's like yeah well guess what I also delivered a lecture at Oxford University England at the invitation of a professor emeritus recognizing my extraordinary scholarship in the field despite the fact that I did not have a PhD so yes some people on a forum say I'm an idiot but there's some really considerable evidence out there that I'm not an idiot but like you know we know like the thing is I don't care I mean like you know in terms of my YouTube presence my background as a scholar of Buddhism has nothing to do with it like nobody put it this way nobody takes my opinion on veganism seriously because of my Buddhist scholarship like they're just unrelated things but like I would say for my own life I do feel that it was a waste of my time I do feel that I wasted ten years of my life compared to what I could have accomplished but it's this weird irony because it's like well if I'm comparing myself to durianrider or Swasey I feel what I did in those 10 years was really worthwhile and I'm like well if you want me to be ashamed of what I did as a scholar of Buddhism simultaneous with humanitarian work in Laos and Cambodia simultaneous with all this other [ __ ] I did you know don't you feel ashamed of living on permanent vacation you know during Ryder or don't you feel a say ashamed Swasey of doing your kind of little softcore science show like with no real ambition like because I would never bring that fight to you I would never be going through Facebook trying to find some example of a comment where you're an [ __ ] or something to defame you but it's like okay if we're really gonna take it that far all right maybe what I did with my life was dumb maybe I should have never moved to Laos to become a scholar of Buddhism but I know compared to you other losers on YouTube you know ten years of your life oh well I mean now I'm stuck learning Chinese at age 37 as a beginner so you know that's that's really not what I wanted to do I mean to give out long story short about Lauren if you look at a map of Asia what I decided to do was neither India nor China but the area in between so that includes Cambodia Laos Thailand Myanmar Sri Lanka and that the history and politics and everything else of that and that was completely impossible for me to do either as a career or even as a hobby and partly the fact that I'm a Canadian citizen makes it worse but it mostly is just the failure of academia in those areas there are no great universities anywhere neither in Europe nor Canada nor age' where I could pursue that kind of thing or even where I it was also impossible for me to get a more humble job you know and pursue that amount of time on the side which I was totally willing to do and I was also willing to become a Buddhist monk or you know teach English or do all kinds of things you know I got jobs working in museums and other funny things I've done various peculiar jobs to to feed myself was doing the kind of research but Noah it is a shame if you spend years and years working very hard to learn a language and then all of a sudden you're never gonna speak that language again that is really heroin and you spend a lot of time studying politics and history of a given area and then all of a sudden you're never gonna you're never gonna use that knowledge again so to be cut off from that and go through that repeatedly is is pretty awful yeah I mean in some I'm now basically unemployable at age 37 and learning Chinese and getting another university degree and my own future is uncertain at best it's it's a very very bleak outlook and I have expertise in that area look if I didn't have the YouTube channel nobody in the world would care which is also very sad in its way right like it's sad being on a university campus in Canada where I know more about Buddhism than the professor who teaches Buddhism and I'm sorry that's not a boast it's just the truth but nobody gives a [ __ ] you know what can become a professor in a university well no I have videos about that but basically that that career path is really closed off to me I had a couple videos called like why I don't have a PhD but know that that was impossible for me and now at age 37 if I started on that path when would I start earning money at like age 50 you know getting my first professorship so nobody as say basically it was a failure of academia related to that part of the world but the failure is in Europe in Canada but it's also within Asia like it's it's just not the case that in Thailand or Myanmar I could go to university and get a PhD there nor Japan China or anywhere else so there's there's been a lot of failure around the board it was so that's that's just the answer question why do I feel that that was wasting my time there are other parts I mean the other stuff you hear about on on YouTube still is meaningful to me and I don't think is a waste of my time or not totally so I I knew a woman in Laos for two years for she knew me for two years we spoke in both German and Lao because I could speak German but I can still speak German to some extent and you know she told me this unbelievable story about running away from America and attack helicopters through the jungle through the mountains and you know a woman next to her being blown in half by the you know the machine-gun fire from the from the helicopter and that's that's not a joke those the helicopters have guns that can pierce you know steal their armor-piercing rounds at a big big caliber so they do if one of them hits you it hits it will tear you in half it's not like a normal normal gun and you know some of that stuff the humanitarian work and the human suffering and the first-person view of history some of that stuff I could say is not a waste of my time but no I'm kind of burdened forever with a bunch of knowledge and skills that I never get to use so yeah many all the people who think I work for the CIA why the hell would the CIA pay anyone to do the things that I did with more than 10 years of my life what do you think the CIA doesn't their money you know I wish boy we're gonna pay the CIA is gonna pay me to study Buddhism for ten years then get involved with First Nations you know native people Canada then come on the internet and talk about veganism you know for 48 US tax payers dollars at work you know that great stuff yeah so Lauren you know we haven't said that much I think we should wrap up this conversation but I mean I hope I know obviously you're in a period of transition you know you're transitioning out of the hospital and eventually you're transitioning out of doing personal training to but probably you know the next time I talk to you probably you know you'll have questions about your own education your own career in front of you right yes I probably oh yeah I don't know I might just try and cater pursue what I'm doing at the moment in terms of like the whole vegan I don't know like can we maybe try and agree the fatness sale in health and main set stuff and it's um so because I do have I have studied like some life coaching and things but I don't know because I don't want to be one of those people who I mean I think I've got a lot to offer but I don't want to become one of those people who are just a [ __ ] I mean I'm not I'm totally not but like you know I the way become one of these parent education people yeah well you know I I had a conversation like that with another vegan on YouTube who I will not name or I'll give her a fake name I'll say her name is Jill her name is not Jill I was talking to Jill and she her Channel you know so there's some kind of life advice and recipes and food and weight loss so it's in this area and we were talking and I was assuming she'd get a real job while doing that kind of thing on YouTube part-time and she was really assuming it would be her main her main career looking ahead and one of the things I said to her was look Jill you can't be better than freely without actually being better than freely and what I meant by that obviously we unpacked it in the conversation but it's like if you want to act like a nutritionist you have to actually get a degree in nutritional science or one of those fields if you want to be better than Frehley right because otherwise you're exactly famous and you know obviously you know don't get me wrong it's not hard to be better than freely in some ways but it's like one of those things it's like well we we all have to live up to her hype like if you're gonna criticize freely for having fake credentials which she does to my knowledge you know that was exposed by the by the press in Australia that that she lied about having this credential she doesn't have well what about the rest of us you know if we're gonna do that and if you personally are gonna do that you know it's I think it's probably not that hard in Scotland if you want to to get some kind of nutrition science or health coach credential and you know you'll it'll probably piss you off you probably make a lot of videos complaining about how they teach you every day how healthy milk is or whatever couple but if you're not willing to suffer through that if you're not willing to write those exams you can't you know what I mean you can't come on the internet and pretend you're better than freely so it's it's the same for anything else and obviously that the the health and nutrition is one aspect of it but mmm you know there's so many ways in which we all have to ask ourselves that and I've got I've got kind of a list of videos I still need to make I'm uploading I've got like four word upload now my upload speed is really slow here but you know one of the things I wanted to talk about with myself was that for me it's really important that I talk in the first person that I talk about me instead of giving advice to my audience sometimes like you know I've got this one video of uploaded in many languages translated again and again on community but like in that video I don't say this is what it means to be a real vegan and if you don't do it you're a fake vegan that's what freely says you know I say this is what I want this is what I want in my life and a lot of people may not realize it but there's a profound difference because I don't think everyone wants that I don't think you have to want it you know what I mean I'm just talking about me and I you know I do think that's a difference but obviously you know for so many people you do get into giving advice to others from what other people should do and there's nothing wrong with that there's nothing evil about that but then you've really got to think about you know what is the difference do you mean freely what is difference between term writer oh yes durianrider is there giving advice to sixteen year olds and 20 year olds and it blows my mind because I'm I'm very reluctant to do that you know but it's like holy [ __ ] I feel like the wise old man of the mountains you know writer but like a 16 year old girl asks you for advice on her sex life you know as you know that's a real example with which you Leah bore you know is it your place to give that advice like on my youtube channel I talk about my sex life I talk about my life you know period and I never it never enters into my mind that a 16 year old would take that as like guidance or anything else you know so yeah that's my warning you don't get to be young twice you don't you [ __ ] it up once and it's over so I got two things to mention but you know within my own family one of my grandmother's was a little bit like that after her husband died so she was alone she just led this totally irresponsible life you know again it's not evil but like you know she played tennis she just had fun she just did nothing you know I mean she just lived a life of self-indulgence and I I really regarded that as immoral again I may be a complete jerk but you know I kind of regard that with people like Joe best or anything else also it's like well look you know this actually isn't your time to be a teenager this is your time to be a grown-up in his case yeah maybe he is old enough to be a grandparent maybe this is your time to have a grandfatherly role but you know that that grandmother she was never like a grandmother to me she didn't even have responsibilities like that in my life and you know she also didn't have any any kind of social or political or a you know any any kind of interest in making the world a better place so anyway again I'm probably a complete jerk to think that about my own grandmother but um you know that that is that is how I think about her and that's you know I'm also self-critical that way I wish I could have a greater sense of responsibility for making the world a better place myself but at the moment I can't and I hope learning Chinese is not a complete dead end I hope this isn't a complete waste of my time and look and the other thing was gonna say so maybe maybe we should close on this we were talking for well over an hour but you know um the other day when I was on the vegan cheetahs live broadcast you know you've you've been on there you've been on there more than I have you guys are the odd couple that's great great you and she to get along but you know one of the things I said because you look at the age group for who his viewers are and they are young and almost that exception those people actually are the future of veganism actually I'm not joking and you know durianrider and Frehley are not durianrider and Frehley are like 2012 which is already over Joe best is not and it is really interesting to think what is it like to be 15 years old today and watching vegan cheetah on YouTube and of course they also to some extent they watch me they watch you but whatever let's just take cheetah as the example they grow up thinking about veganism as something normal and as something import in a way totally different from how you and I ever thought about veganism right and five years from now they're all gonna be whatever 2025 they're all gonna be five years older and they're gonna know who you are and they're gonna Know Who I am and they're gonna who cheat is and they're gonna have a much more mature outlook on veganism because they already did all this immature stuff when they were 15 they didn't wait like Joe bast waited till he was 40 or something I don't know right he's doing this teenage stuff now you know what I mean so to me that's something really kind of powerfully optimistic about the future and I think it's something optimistic like for your future personally as as the vegan laughs like you know five years from now you can go to some animal rights conference or event or ten years from now or 20 years from now and you'll meet people who grew up watching your channel you'll meet people who say hey you know I discovered your channel five years ago when I just broke up with my boyfriend whatever the story is you know you're gonna you're gonna meet people have that have that contact with them so I I don't say that because it's important as an ego trip I actually think that's important for the future of veganism you know all right great doggy you laughs I'm gonna stop now because otherwise we'll talk all night okay yeah wonderful to meet you at long last you know what I'm about a bonus Yin