Overpopulation: Vegan Gains vs. Unnatural Vegan (vs. Reality).
16 November 2017 [link youtube]
Youtube Automatic Transcription
I do not know to what extent the
arguments offered by a natural vegan are insincere or are just sincerely ignorant and wrong but it seems to be very strange that someone who would argue that vegans for example can greatly reduce their impact on the world ecology would suddenly forget that fact when turning to the issue of overpopulation and the presumed significance of overpopulation at third world countries the people of Rwanda Laos and Lesotho are not vegan I don't think any of those countries has even a 1 percent vegan population rate it's probably pretty close to zero and all three of those countries and yet if you glance at this chart you can see right away the ecological impact of having a baby if having a new infant grow up to be an adult that lifecycle ecological impact of the Rwandan a lotion or a Liz otha Lian child sorry if I mispronounced that is much much lower than a new child being born and raised and going to adulthood in the United States of Canada this is such a basic fact I don't see how anyone on any site of the anti-natal s debate could ignore it especially not if you're having an ADA list versus a needless debate within veganism where these kinds of statistics seem to be the bread and butter of our movement they're used all the time and yet here they seem to be conveniently ignored by a natural vegan they're overpopulated why the do you feel so self entitled to breed especially when you're vegan well you're already aware of what the hell's going on at our planet I guess they think that that the entire world is dealing with overpopulation like somehow them not having children is going to improve the situation in like the developing world it would be really easy to accuse a natural vegan of racism and I'm not gonna do that it's too easy do you really think a first world country like the Netherlands does not have any problem with overpopulation it's very easy in the world the world as reorganized by Google and Wikipedia for you to look up right now population density people per square kilometer there are also more nuanced measurements you can look at like the ratio between the number of inhabitants and the amount of food that land can produce this is a quote from a website that's advocating against overpopulation and really arguing at length that it's a problem the Netherlands I don't agree with every sentiment or every claim on this website but it's one example and it says quote at the moment the Netherlands has around 60 million inhabitants it's grown it's now 17 million since this website was written our country can only produce food for around 5 million we have to ask ourselves if the countries that are exporting food and raw materials the moment will still we want to do this in 3040 years time look it's completely asinine for a natural vegan to ask as if it's a preposterous suggestion that it is the whole world's problem that the world is over but you think it's not the whole world's problem do you think that people in the Netherlands only eat food produced in the Netherlands are only use ecological services or only produce air pollution that impacts the Netherlands only reduce water pollution that impacts no ones yeah above all else obviously food production has been globalized to an unbelievable extent when I was in Cambodia Cambodian rice farmers were farming rice to be exported to North Africa and North African people were eating Cambodian rice I guess they think that that the entire world is dealing with overpopulation yes overpopulation is a worldwide problem and it links Cambodia to North Africa and it links the Netherlands to Canada and these same people vegans like a natural vegan will talk about you know climate change and air pollution is a global problem no problem so why is it she suddenly becomes conveniently scientifically illiterate and pretends this is a problem that only exists in third-world countries and the people in first world countries have no connection to when it comes to overpopulation Nadel ISM and antinatalism and what I think is really a spectrum of you know different views there isn't a simple dichotomy between antenatal lust and pronatalist when you really think of almost nobody supports either extreme position on this issue there are a lot of moderate positions between and in fact if you listen to them vegan gains mr. girlfriend are moderates but look it's not just about raw overpopulation it's not just about the fact that a country like the Netherlands has an unbelievably high population density this is the same chart we had before but with two more countries at the list here's the Netherlands compared to Bangladesh in terms of their water footprint per capita and their ecological footprint per capita okay the Netherlands is overpopulated overpopulation is a problem in some first world countries not others there it's a problem in some third-world countries not others Laos is underpopulated Bangladesh is overpopulated and they're pretty much next-door to each other and it's an open question as to how much Bangladesh the immigration and we're gonna get migrants going from Bangladesh to Laos in the future for exactly that reason but any case apart from the mere fact of overpopulation itself there's the question of the ecological impact of that population and that changes dramatically with things like yes yes y'all meat consumption and whether or not you've heard of it of course long-distance flights taking basically how much to what extent you rely on airplanes and to water sent your country as a whole relies on airplanes which may be used for transport reviews for military purposes but yes also for taking vacations that kind of thing and look look at the chart on the right you could have maybe five children in Bangladesh who live and are raised at a Bangladeshi quality of life with Bangladeshi environmental impacts and you would never have the negative ecological impact of just one child and that one's basically overpopulation in the developed world is a myth the problem is in developing countries where there are not enough resources for the number of people now I have not ever lived in Bangladesh Bangladesh has not been a meaningful part of my life I used to be a scholar of Buddhism and I lived in Laos which we'll also see on this chart I've got to tell you a lot of people are happy with the quality of life level of consumption and level of negative ecological impact that they haven't Laos I met a lot of Europeans who preferred to live in Laos I met Europeans who preferred to live in small villages at supposedly third-world quality of living Laos Laos is not now in extreme poverty they've emerged from the period of the most extreme poverty went through they've emerged in the period where the average lifespan was under 50 years per person and it's now into a kind of moderate poverty but whether you're talking about Laos or Cuba or Lozado I met and spoke with one guy who'd been to Lhasa though he lived in South Africa and he told me about you know what life was like in Lazaro also there are you know this is not the case that we're comparing a life of unlimited luxury indulgence to a life of horrible privation I can tell you from experience life in Laos is worth living a lot of people who whether or on vacation or do humanitarian work go to places like Cuba I knew one guy who did humanitarian work at Cuba for quite some time whether whichever example you want to take Lazaro or Laos or Cuba human beings do lead meaningful lives in these places it is possible to live a life that has a a much I'm not gonna say a life in balance with nature nobody in Laos is trying to live in balance in nature nobody in Bangladesh astride a little bit nobody and none of these people are vegan way less than 1% of people in any one of these countries is vegan but simply they're living a life that is a radically lower environmental impact per person so in terms of both pro needleless antenatal it's debates and the moderate positions in between we need to be mindful we need to not adopt the pseudo racist position of a natural vegan that this is a problem that somehow is created in third world countries that people in first world countries don't need to deal with whatever we're talking about ecological services water pollution air pollution of course there's a global dimension of oh of course there is shame on you for pretending there isn't and then above and beyond that shame on you for not recognizing or pretending not know that the real ecological impact whether you use water footprint ecological footprint air pollution measurements whichever measurement of pollution you you you want to use that that is exponentially lower for people living in third world conditions people having an raising a baby than it is for you in the United States of America you seem like a good day how many children do you have by how many mothers you can see why some people are gonna say that's a little bit odd okay my kids are you able and I you have every right to have as many children are you a are you able to pay child support I can't pay no child support right now they know I can't play them no child support right now why do you think I might hip mentoring and talking to kids and doing all this stuff is whatever it is man you get what do you think you'll have any more children you're a young man I don't want no more kids I want to be fixed I got kids right now this 15 16 17 years old they'll miss let me ask you this it's a lot of kids and I want to put you on the spot but can you name them all give it a shot do you really want me to do this name a few of them you said 17 all my boy's name is Orlando one of my boys name is Tasha on one arm is quite Lindo then I got on land real or land real oneisha Oh Miko okay you get what I'm saying I got a miracle to me I got real I got a member well I got him hey I named them I mean these kids a Tennessee man holds a county record in Knoxville listen to this he's the father of 30 children and he's only 33 years old Desmond hatchet was back in court this week pleading with the state to help him pay his child support he's the father of 30 kids with 11 different women and each of them wads support the state already takes half his paycheck and divides it up his oldest child is only 14 his youngest is a toddler there is nothing the state can do to make him stop having more kids he has not broken any law in case you think this is a bad stereotype about african-american men let me tell you something my father identified as white and he was just as bad as any of these guys my father had nine kids with a whole bunch of different women and I do not take a pronate ----list position---- none of these issues I am actually closer to the anti needless position I'm a moderate but I am on a different point of the spectrum from Richard and Jasmine here Richard and jasmine their video really just disgusts the decision to have children as a personal choice as something that reflects your values your economic concerns yes but ultimately just how you want to spend your time how you want to enjoy your life and I don't see it that way I actually think there should be upper limits how many children you have what the limits are going to be different in different countries and that ultimately those decisions have to be made and enforced by governments now governments can of course discourage high birth rates or they can set a target birth rate in different ways in my earlier video I mentioned that because Laos is actually under populated the government there encourages people to have four kids but for kids only not five not six not eight not 12 and you know that is itself a significant policy decision with significant ramifications in China we used to have a one-child policy now it's been increased to a two-child policy but nevertheless that's a situation where government is imposing a maximum birth rate and some governments in the opposite position in Japan there's actually worry about the birth rate being too low with popular the possibility of population collapse and what that'll mean for the country but let me just say I don't believe my father should have had the legal right to have nine kids and I was the youngest of those nine kids so yes in my case it absolutely means that I would not exist and you can quote me on this existing is one of my favorite things to do but nevertheless I have to call my own existence into question here I absolutely think any responsible country should have sat down the authorities should have sat down with my my father at some point whether it was when he had four kids or five kids and said look you enough is enough ultimately there are questions here a regulation there are questions that go far beyond personal choice there are questions of what kind of society we want to live in and you know how those decisions are made what the rules are and how they're enforced are very very important political decisions they're not anything I take like lightly although I am NOT an ante natal list it's really ironic that in this situation in terms of the stated position of Richard and Jasmine they are just telling you that this is a personal choice try to make the right choice think about your values think but we really want life and they feel that many people we don't know how many they don't offer us a percentage guess they don't say whether it's 50% of people or 6% of people are talking about but they feel that many people will agree with them and will not agree with the sort of stereotypical grandmother trying to force you to have kids as early as possible and as often as possible I think there's a much deeper question that every one of the audience needs to ask themselves when you step away from these stereotyped notions reject the stereotyped image presented by unnatural vegan that this is just a problem for the third world it's only problem for countries not in the first what countries know there are plenty of third world countries that are that are under populated that are depopulated like Laos or like Myanmar Myanmar owes an incredibly low population densities on and then there are other third-world countries right next door to them that are overpopulated so the difference is not first versus their world there are first world countries like the Netherlands where overpopulation is a real and rational concern and there are countries that may be large in terms of their expanse of empty land where that land is not really fertile is not really arable or is not really inhabitable so you nevertheless get overpopulation problems with the population being crowded into just a few cities just a few trading ports I do not want to venture a guess as to how close to their maximum population capacity you know Iceland is a small country like Iceland a country like Greenland although underpopulated in terms of just looking at the raw data if you try to do an ecological and economic analysis what is the maximum population Greenland can carry or what's the optimum population Greenland can carry very very difficult decisions to make but those decisions ultimately translate into government policies on how many children you should have they ultimately translate into government policies that would take away the freedom of my own father to have more kids when he's already had four or he's already had five whatever the number is that's the decision we have to make society as it says you have to make in a democratic and transparent fashion and many people who've attacked me for being anti anti-natal list might be surprised if they calm down and realized where I stood on this spectrum a spectrum were very very few people in fact adopt either of the opposite extremes evolution
arguments offered by a natural vegan are insincere or are just sincerely ignorant and wrong but it seems to be very strange that someone who would argue that vegans for example can greatly reduce their impact on the world ecology would suddenly forget that fact when turning to the issue of overpopulation and the presumed significance of overpopulation at third world countries the people of Rwanda Laos and Lesotho are not vegan I don't think any of those countries has even a 1 percent vegan population rate it's probably pretty close to zero and all three of those countries and yet if you glance at this chart you can see right away the ecological impact of having a baby if having a new infant grow up to be an adult that lifecycle ecological impact of the Rwandan a lotion or a Liz otha Lian child sorry if I mispronounced that is much much lower than a new child being born and raised and going to adulthood in the United States of Canada this is such a basic fact I don't see how anyone on any site of the anti-natal s debate could ignore it especially not if you're having an ADA list versus a needless debate within veganism where these kinds of statistics seem to be the bread and butter of our movement they're used all the time and yet here they seem to be conveniently ignored by a natural vegan they're overpopulated why the do you feel so self entitled to breed especially when you're vegan well you're already aware of what the hell's going on at our planet I guess they think that that the entire world is dealing with overpopulation like somehow them not having children is going to improve the situation in like the developing world it would be really easy to accuse a natural vegan of racism and I'm not gonna do that it's too easy do you really think a first world country like the Netherlands does not have any problem with overpopulation it's very easy in the world the world as reorganized by Google and Wikipedia for you to look up right now population density people per square kilometer there are also more nuanced measurements you can look at like the ratio between the number of inhabitants and the amount of food that land can produce this is a quote from a website that's advocating against overpopulation and really arguing at length that it's a problem the Netherlands I don't agree with every sentiment or every claim on this website but it's one example and it says quote at the moment the Netherlands has around 60 million inhabitants it's grown it's now 17 million since this website was written our country can only produce food for around 5 million we have to ask ourselves if the countries that are exporting food and raw materials the moment will still we want to do this in 3040 years time look it's completely asinine for a natural vegan to ask as if it's a preposterous suggestion that it is the whole world's problem that the world is over but you think it's not the whole world's problem do you think that people in the Netherlands only eat food produced in the Netherlands are only use ecological services or only produce air pollution that impacts the Netherlands only reduce water pollution that impacts no ones yeah above all else obviously food production has been globalized to an unbelievable extent when I was in Cambodia Cambodian rice farmers were farming rice to be exported to North Africa and North African people were eating Cambodian rice I guess they think that that the entire world is dealing with overpopulation yes overpopulation is a worldwide problem and it links Cambodia to North Africa and it links the Netherlands to Canada and these same people vegans like a natural vegan will talk about you know climate change and air pollution is a global problem no problem so why is it she suddenly becomes conveniently scientifically illiterate and pretends this is a problem that only exists in third-world countries and the people in first world countries have no connection to when it comes to overpopulation Nadel ISM and antinatalism and what I think is really a spectrum of you know different views there isn't a simple dichotomy between antenatal lust and pronatalist when you really think of almost nobody supports either extreme position on this issue there are a lot of moderate positions between and in fact if you listen to them vegan gains mr. girlfriend are moderates but look it's not just about raw overpopulation it's not just about the fact that a country like the Netherlands has an unbelievably high population density this is the same chart we had before but with two more countries at the list here's the Netherlands compared to Bangladesh in terms of their water footprint per capita and their ecological footprint per capita okay the Netherlands is overpopulated overpopulation is a problem in some first world countries not others there it's a problem in some third-world countries not others Laos is underpopulated Bangladesh is overpopulated and they're pretty much next-door to each other and it's an open question as to how much Bangladesh the immigration and we're gonna get migrants going from Bangladesh to Laos in the future for exactly that reason but any case apart from the mere fact of overpopulation itself there's the question of the ecological impact of that population and that changes dramatically with things like yes yes y'all meat consumption and whether or not you've heard of it of course long-distance flights taking basically how much to what extent you rely on airplanes and to water sent your country as a whole relies on airplanes which may be used for transport reviews for military purposes but yes also for taking vacations that kind of thing and look look at the chart on the right you could have maybe five children in Bangladesh who live and are raised at a Bangladeshi quality of life with Bangladeshi environmental impacts and you would never have the negative ecological impact of just one child and that one's basically overpopulation in the developed world is a myth the problem is in developing countries where there are not enough resources for the number of people now I have not ever lived in Bangladesh Bangladesh has not been a meaningful part of my life I used to be a scholar of Buddhism and I lived in Laos which we'll also see on this chart I've got to tell you a lot of people are happy with the quality of life level of consumption and level of negative ecological impact that they haven't Laos I met a lot of Europeans who preferred to live in Laos I met Europeans who preferred to live in small villages at supposedly third-world quality of living Laos Laos is not now in extreme poverty they've emerged from the period of the most extreme poverty went through they've emerged in the period where the average lifespan was under 50 years per person and it's now into a kind of moderate poverty but whether you're talking about Laos or Cuba or Lozado I met and spoke with one guy who'd been to Lhasa though he lived in South Africa and he told me about you know what life was like in Lazaro also there are you know this is not the case that we're comparing a life of unlimited luxury indulgence to a life of horrible privation I can tell you from experience life in Laos is worth living a lot of people who whether or on vacation or do humanitarian work go to places like Cuba I knew one guy who did humanitarian work at Cuba for quite some time whether whichever example you want to take Lazaro or Laos or Cuba human beings do lead meaningful lives in these places it is possible to live a life that has a a much I'm not gonna say a life in balance with nature nobody in Laos is trying to live in balance in nature nobody in Bangladesh astride a little bit nobody and none of these people are vegan way less than 1% of people in any one of these countries is vegan but simply they're living a life that is a radically lower environmental impact per person so in terms of both pro needleless antenatal it's debates and the moderate positions in between we need to be mindful we need to not adopt the pseudo racist position of a natural vegan that this is a problem that somehow is created in third world countries that people in first world countries don't need to deal with whatever we're talking about ecological services water pollution air pollution of course there's a global dimension of oh of course there is shame on you for pretending there isn't and then above and beyond that shame on you for not recognizing or pretending not know that the real ecological impact whether you use water footprint ecological footprint air pollution measurements whichever measurement of pollution you you you want to use that that is exponentially lower for people living in third world conditions people having an raising a baby than it is for you in the United States of America you seem like a good day how many children do you have by how many mothers you can see why some people are gonna say that's a little bit odd okay my kids are you able and I you have every right to have as many children are you a are you able to pay child support I can't pay no child support right now they know I can't play them no child support right now why do you think I might hip mentoring and talking to kids and doing all this stuff is whatever it is man you get what do you think you'll have any more children you're a young man I don't want no more kids I want to be fixed I got kids right now this 15 16 17 years old they'll miss let me ask you this it's a lot of kids and I want to put you on the spot but can you name them all give it a shot do you really want me to do this name a few of them you said 17 all my boy's name is Orlando one of my boys name is Tasha on one arm is quite Lindo then I got on land real or land real oneisha Oh Miko okay you get what I'm saying I got a miracle to me I got real I got a member well I got him hey I named them I mean these kids a Tennessee man holds a county record in Knoxville listen to this he's the father of 30 children and he's only 33 years old Desmond hatchet was back in court this week pleading with the state to help him pay his child support he's the father of 30 kids with 11 different women and each of them wads support the state already takes half his paycheck and divides it up his oldest child is only 14 his youngest is a toddler there is nothing the state can do to make him stop having more kids he has not broken any law in case you think this is a bad stereotype about african-american men let me tell you something my father identified as white and he was just as bad as any of these guys my father had nine kids with a whole bunch of different women and I do not take a pronate ----list position---- none of these issues I am actually closer to the anti needless position I'm a moderate but I am on a different point of the spectrum from Richard and Jasmine here Richard and jasmine their video really just disgusts the decision to have children as a personal choice as something that reflects your values your economic concerns yes but ultimately just how you want to spend your time how you want to enjoy your life and I don't see it that way I actually think there should be upper limits how many children you have what the limits are going to be different in different countries and that ultimately those decisions have to be made and enforced by governments now governments can of course discourage high birth rates or they can set a target birth rate in different ways in my earlier video I mentioned that because Laos is actually under populated the government there encourages people to have four kids but for kids only not five not six not eight not 12 and you know that is itself a significant policy decision with significant ramifications in China we used to have a one-child policy now it's been increased to a two-child policy but nevertheless that's a situation where government is imposing a maximum birth rate and some governments in the opposite position in Japan there's actually worry about the birth rate being too low with popular the possibility of population collapse and what that'll mean for the country but let me just say I don't believe my father should have had the legal right to have nine kids and I was the youngest of those nine kids so yes in my case it absolutely means that I would not exist and you can quote me on this existing is one of my favorite things to do but nevertheless I have to call my own existence into question here I absolutely think any responsible country should have sat down the authorities should have sat down with my my father at some point whether it was when he had four kids or five kids and said look you enough is enough ultimately there are questions here a regulation there are questions that go far beyond personal choice there are questions of what kind of society we want to live in and you know how those decisions are made what the rules are and how they're enforced are very very important political decisions they're not anything I take like lightly although I am NOT an ante natal list it's really ironic that in this situation in terms of the stated position of Richard and Jasmine they are just telling you that this is a personal choice try to make the right choice think about your values think but we really want life and they feel that many people we don't know how many they don't offer us a percentage guess they don't say whether it's 50% of people or 6% of people are talking about but they feel that many people will agree with them and will not agree with the sort of stereotypical grandmother trying to force you to have kids as early as possible and as often as possible I think there's a much deeper question that every one of the audience needs to ask themselves when you step away from these stereotyped notions reject the stereotyped image presented by unnatural vegan that this is just a problem for the third world it's only problem for countries not in the first what countries know there are plenty of third world countries that are that are under populated that are depopulated like Laos or like Myanmar Myanmar owes an incredibly low population densities on and then there are other third-world countries right next door to them that are overpopulated so the difference is not first versus their world there are first world countries like the Netherlands where overpopulation is a real and rational concern and there are countries that may be large in terms of their expanse of empty land where that land is not really fertile is not really arable or is not really inhabitable so you nevertheless get overpopulation problems with the population being crowded into just a few cities just a few trading ports I do not want to venture a guess as to how close to their maximum population capacity you know Iceland is a small country like Iceland a country like Greenland although underpopulated in terms of just looking at the raw data if you try to do an ecological and economic analysis what is the maximum population Greenland can carry or what's the optimum population Greenland can carry very very difficult decisions to make but those decisions ultimately translate into government policies on how many children you should have they ultimately translate into government policies that would take away the freedom of my own father to have more kids when he's already had four or he's already had five whatever the number is that's the decision we have to make society as it says you have to make in a democratic and transparent fashion and many people who've attacked me for being anti anti-natal list might be surprised if they calm down and realized where I stood on this spectrum a spectrum were very very few people in fact adopt either of the opposite extremes evolution