Why is there so much hostility from leftists against vegans?
06 March 2018 [link youtube]
https://www.patreon.com/a_bas_le_ciel
Youtube Automatic Transcription
baddest yen and very often in the
discussions I saw sometimes I wasn't the only person speaking for veganism soon as I saw other people other vegans representing the vegan side and the question that God asked again and again from our side from the vegan side was why do you feel that one moral cause is obstructing the other why do you feel that one is in any way presenting an obstacle to the other like why do you feel will be a problem for you as a gay rights activist to represent gay rights or pursue the the objectives of gay rights while also at the grocery store choosing to buy ice cream made out of soy beans instead of ice cream made out of cow milk again in some cases it will be because they have a commitment to an explicitly socialist or even communist idea of working-class values in some cases it will be because they feel again even though veganism doesn't obstruct what they want to do they would feel that veganism Simo detracts from the moral identity and sense of political purpose they've crafted that it's a different kind of claim to moral authority but it's a different kind of appeal to even your optimism many people on the Left are deeply committed to the view that these problems are impossible to solve an impossible to ameliorate without a revolution specifically a proletariat revolution a proletarian revolution I should say specifically without the working class rising up and destroying the infrastructure of capitalist society they want to demonize capitalism and blame capitalism so another paradigm that shows you another way forward another way to make progress that's really meaningful jhula meaningful in terms of ecology we're living in form terms of ethics really meaningful terms these kinds of outcomes really meaningful even in terms of oppression you know a somewhat vague term it's interesting to see just how threatening that is to them they feel that if they commit to veganism or if they commit to animal rights that this is undermining for example quote the proletarian struggle close quote that a commitment to proletarian proletarian ISM I should say is something so important and committing to proletarian values that it shouldn't be challenged by something veganism know what is meant by proletarian ism Norma the people were into that are people who read Socialist Worker magazine and want to imagine there's something especially progressive and sacrosanct about labor unions and the average working man and what have you guess what you know that's really an argument just for status quo ISM the the values of the proletariat they are the values the status quo and again there's a bitter irony there because those are the values of the status quo being valorized and propounded as if they were revolutionary as if they were the values of a revolution [Music] baddest yen by the way in terms of the difference your patron dollars make I did purchase new lighting for the show so right now this has zero lighting there's one light bulb in the corner of the room way over there lighting this whole thing so that'll lower the video quality in effect but I did actually buy myself an LED panel light and if that's not enough I'll buy another one or I'll buy a ring light I am trying to get higher quality lighting on the show we'll see could get higher quality microphone could do some other things over here question came from the audience live streaming I might as well quote it word for word quote why is it that intersectional feminists seems so hostile toward vegans when they have recently encountered it ie I think he's saying this is not necessarily the case that they have a long-standing deep-seated hostility but when they're presented with veganism it may be for the first time or maybe kind of unfamiliar thing for them they seem to immediately have a lot of hostility towards it and a lot of this hostility revolves around veganism being so-called quote unquote first world now I encountered this long before I had a youtube channel we now have over 900 videos on this YouTube channel many of them not all of them talking about vegan politics vegan practical philosophy it was on tumblr back when tumblr as a platform was really popping and tumblr was infamous for having a lot of so-called social justice warrior discourse including this type of over the hot over the top insincere reaction from feminists and you know intersectional left-wing activists of various kinds I say insincere here quite intentionally and advisedly by contrast and I had dialogue with these people via tumblr so tumblr messages and commentary tumblr is a type of blogging and social media platform but it allows you to privately message people also so to give an example of someone who was stating sincerely really sincerely the reason for hostility I once talked to a gay man and he had been for I think decades a gay rights activist and he stated from his perspective sincerely how he felt about this he said look he was on the side of truth and justice and good things good and upright moral causes for so many years he'd worked so hard over such a long period of time to make the world a better place as a gay rights activist that now he fundamentally did not care about veal calves and cows and pigs and chickens and vegans with their self-righteous attitude could in plain language go to hell now I appreciated a sincerity I think what he was stating sincerely and directly is what is concealed behind a veneer with many intersectional feminists social justice warriors that's have a person that they react to veganism as a moral cause simply feeling that they have already planted a flag they've already staked their flagpole on some other hill and they want that Hill to be the only hill it also be the only moral cause and there's a bitter irony there because the fundamental concept of intersectional ism is exactly supposed to challenge that type of flagpole raising I mean if you actually look into the philosophy and theory of intersectional ism it's the idea of intersecting oppressions that hey the gay rights movement isn't something totally separate from say the black liberation movement that within the United States of America you can look at the ways in which the oppression of black people and oppression of gay people have some kind of dynamic there's some kind of dynamic link between the two from the perspective the oppressor with the persuade of the oppressed and in terms of the mechanics of how society operates so they're supposed to challenge that way of thinking and yet veganism seems to be a mountain peak in the same Valley and they really don't want to be in its shadow they don't want to feel there's more than one moral cause here that you can you can put a flag line so I myself directly tried to engage in sometimes Socratic and sometimes not so Socratic dialogue I tried to engage in philosophical conversations of these people who had this kind of very hostile reaction again more back when I was on tumblr then since I've joined YouTube but it's probably happen since I've joined YouTube and it's just not springing to mind and very often in the discussions I saw sometimes I wasn't the only person speaking for veganism as I saw other people other vegans representing the vegan side and the question that God asked again and again from our side from the vegan side was why do you feel that one moral cause is obstructing the other why do you feel that one is in any way presenting an obstacle to the other like why do you feel would be a problem for you as a gay rights activist to represent gay rights or pursue the the objectives of gay rights while also at the grocery store choosing to buy ice cream made out of soy beans instead of ice cream made out of cow milk because right now in 2018 that's really what veganism comes down to I have sometimes said face to face as my professors when they said well being a vegan must be hard I've said to them it is exactly as hard as standing in a convenience store and choosing the chocolate bar that doesn't have milk in it instead of the chocolate part that does and they laugh I mean they get out they get I get a laugh out of that line I guess I presented it slightly funnier way than my tone of voice right now it's like well you think it's hard the next time you go to a grocery store even a gas station just look at the array of chocolate bars in front you there gonna be a couple there that don't have any milk in it you know the one of the reasons why they don't have dairy ingredients of course has to do with the fact that there are there are people who just want black chocolate for the taste they want the more intense flavor of dark chocolate but also of course there are people who are lactose intolerant I don't think most of those chocolate bars they're not being made for a vegan market but still it's there it's available to us and so it's not that hard but anyway this some this challenge of asking why do you think one obstructs the other why do you think one presents a barrier to the other was then very difficult for them to reply to you and I think it's probably cuz it hits nail on the head that is how they feel they feel that if they commit to veganism or if they can to animal rights that this is undermining for example quote the proletarian struggle close quote that a commitment to proletarian proletarian ism I should say is something so important and committing to proletarian values that it shouldn't be challenged by somebody being innocent know what is meant by proletarian ism normally the people were into that are people who read Socialist Worker magazine and want to imagine there's something especially progressive and sacrosanct about labor unions and the average working man and what have you now this goes back to give an example when Lenin the dictator Vladimir Ilich Lenin when he wanted to justify setting up repressive laws governing human sexual behavior in Russia he did so by saying that he was embracing proletarian values that working-class values were not of sleeping around or having the freedom to divorce your wife or something that he wasn't forcing Russia under communist to go back to Catholic about certain part mission as a Catholic Eastern Orthodox values Christian values he wasn't that this was somehow a standard different from Christianity was simply appealing to the values of the proletariat of the working man now that's a rabbit hole many left wingers go down of trying to lionize and valorize what happened to be working-class values if you live in a Christian country look at the United States of America or Christian country like Russia in the year 1917 when Lenin is taking over power in 1917 or even the 1920s or what have you you know guess what you know that's really an argument just for status quo ISM the the values of the proletariat share the values the status quo and again there's a bitter irony there because those are the values of the status quo being valorized and propounded as if they were revolutionary as if they were the values of a revolution earlier today I got a message back on facebook in Chinese from a guy I've been writing to in Chinese he's a vegan activist in Taiwan he's a very sincere vegan activist but when I wrote to him in Chinese he was really shocked by my using words like well activism in Chinese it's a political sense of activism and struggle and social struggle talked about veganism being a struggle for the the future of of society and this kind of thing and he wrote to me in Chinese saying look why do you why do you use these kind of terms look why you know why is it a struggle why are you saying it's a political struggle and so on anyway and I sent him a link to one of my videos that's in Chinese Aveda the siser subtitled Chinese and then he wrote back saying oh okay like now I see your point of view you know you're talking about veganism well he said literally Chinese you're talking about vegan food as a kind of revolution a vegan revolutions interesting thing for him to say and he said for his part that he also felt that he was in a struggle you know for the future of mankind the future of his culture for the future of status of veganism society but you know I just point out there's nothing ineluctably and self-evidently political about veganism most people regard veganism as some sorry I've got some vegan cookbooks around here uh sorry they're too far for me to bring them on camera they view veganism as a lifestyle as a dietary choice as something that only exists in you know as a type of restaurant or what have you and it's interesting that these people who hate us so much from the intersectional feminist side of things the social justice Wars I think they're actually in the tiny minority who are perceiving veganism and reacting to veganism initially and immediately as a rival political movement as another peak in that valley as another flagpole and they don't want to be in a shadow and they don't want to have to they don't want have to deal with it and again in some cases it will be because they have a commitment to an explicitly socialist or even communist idea of working-class values in some cases it will be because they feel again even though veganism doesn't obstruct what they want to do they would feel that veganism Simo detracts from the moral identity and sense of political purpose they've crafted that it's a different kind of claim to moral authority but it's a different kind of appeal to even your optimum in having a better future that it's a different kind of so for example within ecology sorry this is a story I've told on my youtube channel before but very very briefly I once went to a lecturer I guess you could say or a seminar on the future of electricity generation of electricity in Ontario and obviously the ecology the ecological problems of that and one of the men speaking at the seminar stated just as a matter of fact that quote we were all socialists close quote like they assumed everyone in the room was a socialist and that therefore everyone in the room would agree that really the problem of pollution and power generation wouldn't be solved until there was a revolution in which the working class rose up and took ownership of the means of production away from from the wealthy from government and this is hilarious to me heyyo I think I was probably the youngest person and that seminar talked about a generational change in politics many people on the Left are deeply committed to the view that these problems are impossible to solve an impossible to ameliorate without a revolution specifically a proletariat revolution a proletarian revolution I should say specifically without the working class rising up and destroying the infrastructure of capitalist society they want to demonize capitalism and blame capitalism so another paradigm that shows you another way forward another way to make progress that's really meaningful jhula meaningful in terms of ecology we're living in full terms of ethics really meaningful terms these kinds of outcomes really meaningful even in terms of oppression you know a somewhat vague term it's interesting to see just how threatening that is to them but the flipside is again my colleague in China he thinks of he is a vegan activist and yet he doesn't think of veganism as political struggle these people who are our opponents and our enemies from the feminine intersectional feminist intersectional social justice worse it's still worthwhile to note that they at least start off on a common footing with us of seeing us as vegans as a rival social cause a rival political while so many others like my Chinese friend even when they're inside veganism they can't see that social and political element to it and certainly plenty of meat eaters go to eat donuts at a vegan bakery or go to vegan sausages at a vegan restaurant and the last thing on their minds is that they are a part of or supporting or being exposed to what is actually a political message or what is in many ways part of the fabric of an ongoing political movement a badess yen
discussions I saw sometimes I wasn't the only person speaking for veganism soon as I saw other people other vegans representing the vegan side and the question that God asked again and again from our side from the vegan side was why do you feel that one moral cause is obstructing the other why do you feel that one is in any way presenting an obstacle to the other like why do you feel will be a problem for you as a gay rights activist to represent gay rights or pursue the the objectives of gay rights while also at the grocery store choosing to buy ice cream made out of soy beans instead of ice cream made out of cow milk again in some cases it will be because they have a commitment to an explicitly socialist or even communist idea of working-class values in some cases it will be because they feel again even though veganism doesn't obstruct what they want to do they would feel that veganism Simo detracts from the moral identity and sense of political purpose they've crafted that it's a different kind of claim to moral authority but it's a different kind of appeal to even your optimism many people on the Left are deeply committed to the view that these problems are impossible to solve an impossible to ameliorate without a revolution specifically a proletariat revolution a proletarian revolution I should say specifically without the working class rising up and destroying the infrastructure of capitalist society they want to demonize capitalism and blame capitalism so another paradigm that shows you another way forward another way to make progress that's really meaningful jhula meaningful in terms of ecology we're living in form terms of ethics really meaningful terms these kinds of outcomes really meaningful even in terms of oppression you know a somewhat vague term it's interesting to see just how threatening that is to them they feel that if they commit to veganism or if they commit to animal rights that this is undermining for example quote the proletarian struggle close quote that a commitment to proletarian proletarian ISM I should say is something so important and committing to proletarian values that it shouldn't be challenged by something veganism know what is meant by proletarian ism Norma the people were into that are people who read Socialist Worker magazine and want to imagine there's something especially progressive and sacrosanct about labor unions and the average working man and what have you guess what you know that's really an argument just for status quo ISM the the values of the proletariat they are the values the status quo and again there's a bitter irony there because those are the values of the status quo being valorized and propounded as if they were revolutionary as if they were the values of a revolution [Music] baddest yen by the way in terms of the difference your patron dollars make I did purchase new lighting for the show so right now this has zero lighting there's one light bulb in the corner of the room way over there lighting this whole thing so that'll lower the video quality in effect but I did actually buy myself an LED panel light and if that's not enough I'll buy another one or I'll buy a ring light I am trying to get higher quality lighting on the show we'll see could get higher quality microphone could do some other things over here question came from the audience live streaming I might as well quote it word for word quote why is it that intersectional feminists seems so hostile toward vegans when they have recently encountered it ie I think he's saying this is not necessarily the case that they have a long-standing deep-seated hostility but when they're presented with veganism it may be for the first time or maybe kind of unfamiliar thing for them they seem to immediately have a lot of hostility towards it and a lot of this hostility revolves around veganism being so-called quote unquote first world now I encountered this long before I had a youtube channel we now have over 900 videos on this YouTube channel many of them not all of them talking about vegan politics vegan practical philosophy it was on tumblr back when tumblr as a platform was really popping and tumblr was infamous for having a lot of so-called social justice warrior discourse including this type of over the hot over the top insincere reaction from feminists and you know intersectional left-wing activists of various kinds I say insincere here quite intentionally and advisedly by contrast and I had dialogue with these people via tumblr so tumblr messages and commentary tumblr is a type of blogging and social media platform but it allows you to privately message people also so to give an example of someone who was stating sincerely really sincerely the reason for hostility I once talked to a gay man and he had been for I think decades a gay rights activist and he stated from his perspective sincerely how he felt about this he said look he was on the side of truth and justice and good things good and upright moral causes for so many years he'd worked so hard over such a long period of time to make the world a better place as a gay rights activist that now he fundamentally did not care about veal calves and cows and pigs and chickens and vegans with their self-righteous attitude could in plain language go to hell now I appreciated a sincerity I think what he was stating sincerely and directly is what is concealed behind a veneer with many intersectional feminists social justice warriors that's have a person that they react to veganism as a moral cause simply feeling that they have already planted a flag they've already staked their flagpole on some other hill and they want that Hill to be the only hill it also be the only moral cause and there's a bitter irony there because the fundamental concept of intersectional ism is exactly supposed to challenge that type of flagpole raising I mean if you actually look into the philosophy and theory of intersectional ism it's the idea of intersecting oppressions that hey the gay rights movement isn't something totally separate from say the black liberation movement that within the United States of America you can look at the ways in which the oppression of black people and oppression of gay people have some kind of dynamic there's some kind of dynamic link between the two from the perspective the oppressor with the persuade of the oppressed and in terms of the mechanics of how society operates so they're supposed to challenge that way of thinking and yet veganism seems to be a mountain peak in the same Valley and they really don't want to be in its shadow they don't want to feel there's more than one moral cause here that you can you can put a flag line so I myself directly tried to engage in sometimes Socratic and sometimes not so Socratic dialogue I tried to engage in philosophical conversations of these people who had this kind of very hostile reaction again more back when I was on tumblr then since I've joined YouTube but it's probably happen since I've joined YouTube and it's just not springing to mind and very often in the discussions I saw sometimes I wasn't the only person speaking for veganism as I saw other people other vegans representing the vegan side and the question that God asked again and again from our side from the vegan side was why do you feel that one moral cause is obstructing the other why do you feel that one is in any way presenting an obstacle to the other like why do you feel would be a problem for you as a gay rights activist to represent gay rights or pursue the the objectives of gay rights while also at the grocery store choosing to buy ice cream made out of soy beans instead of ice cream made out of cow milk because right now in 2018 that's really what veganism comes down to I have sometimes said face to face as my professors when they said well being a vegan must be hard I've said to them it is exactly as hard as standing in a convenience store and choosing the chocolate bar that doesn't have milk in it instead of the chocolate part that does and they laugh I mean they get out they get I get a laugh out of that line I guess I presented it slightly funnier way than my tone of voice right now it's like well you think it's hard the next time you go to a grocery store even a gas station just look at the array of chocolate bars in front you there gonna be a couple there that don't have any milk in it you know the one of the reasons why they don't have dairy ingredients of course has to do with the fact that there are there are people who just want black chocolate for the taste they want the more intense flavor of dark chocolate but also of course there are people who are lactose intolerant I don't think most of those chocolate bars they're not being made for a vegan market but still it's there it's available to us and so it's not that hard but anyway this some this challenge of asking why do you think one obstructs the other why do you think one presents a barrier to the other was then very difficult for them to reply to you and I think it's probably cuz it hits nail on the head that is how they feel they feel that if they commit to veganism or if they can to animal rights that this is undermining for example quote the proletarian struggle close quote that a commitment to proletarian proletarian ism I should say is something so important and committing to proletarian values that it shouldn't be challenged by somebody being innocent know what is meant by proletarian ism normally the people were into that are people who read Socialist Worker magazine and want to imagine there's something especially progressive and sacrosanct about labor unions and the average working man and what have you now this goes back to give an example when Lenin the dictator Vladimir Ilich Lenin when he wanted to justify setting up repressive laws governing human sexual behavior in Russia he did so by saying that he was embracing proletarian values that working-class values were not of sleeping around or having the freedom to divorce your wife or something that he wasn't forcing Russia under communist to go back to Catholic about certain part mission as a Catholic Eastern Orthodox values Christian values he wasn't that this was somehow a standard different from Christianity was simply appealing to the values of the proletariat of the working man now that's a rabbit hole many left wingers go down of trying to lionize and valorize what happened to be working-class values if you live in a Christian country look at the United States of America or Christian country like Russia in the year 1917 when Lenin is taking over power in 1917 or even the 1920s or what have you you know guess what you know that's really an argument just for status quo ISM the the values of the proletariat share the values the status quo and again there's a bitter irony there because those are the values of the status quo being valorized and propounded as if they were revolutionary as if they were the values of a revolution earlier today I got a message back on facebook in Chinese from a guy I've been writing to in Chinese he's a vegan activist in Taiwan he's a very sincere vegan activist but when I wrote to him in Chinese he was really shocked by my using words like well activism in Chinese it's a political sense of activism and struggle and social struggle talked about veganism being a struggle for the the future of of society and this kind of thing and he wrote to me in Chinese saying look why do you why do you use these kind of terms look why you know why is it a struggle why are you saying it's a political struggle and so on anyway and I sent him a link to one of my videos that's in Chinese Aveda the siser subtitled Chinese and then he wrote back saying oh okay like now I see your point of view you know you're talking about veganism well he said literally Chinese you're talking about vegan food as a kind of revolution a vegan revolutions interesting thing for him to say and he said for his part that he also felt that he was in a struggle you know for the future of mankind the future of his culture for the future of status of veganism society but you know I just point out there's nothing ineluctably and self-evidently political about veganism most people regard veganism as some sorry I've got some vegan cookbooks around here uh sorry they're too far for me to bring them on camera they view veganism as a lifestyle as a dietary choice as something that only exists in you know as a type of restaurant or what have you and it's interesting that these people who hate us so much from the intersectional feminist side of things the social justice Wars I think they're actually in the tiny minority who are perceiving veganism and reacting to veganism initially and immediately as a rival political movement as another peak in that valley as another flagpole and they don't want to be in a shadow and they don't want to have to they don't want have to deal with it and again in some cases it will be because they have a commitment to an explicitly socialist or even communist idea of working-class values in some cases it will be because they feel again even though veganism doesn't obstruct what they want to do they would feel that veganism Simo detracts from the moral identity and sense of political purpose they've crafted that it's a different kind of claim to moral authority but it's a different kind of appeal to even your optimum in having a better future that it's a different kind of so for example within ecology sorry this is a story I've told on my youtube channel before but very very briefly I once went to a lecturer I guess you could say or a seminar on the future of electricity generation of electricity in Ontario and obviously the ecology the ecological problems of that and one of the men speaking at the seminar stated just as a matter of fact that quote we were all socialists close quote like they assumed everyone in the room was a socialist and that therefore everyone in the room would agree that really the problem of pollution and power generation wouldn't be solved until there was a revolution in which the working class rose up and took ownership of the means of production away from from the wealthy from government and this is hilarious to me heyyo I think I was probably the youngest person and that seminar talked about a generational change in politics many people on the Left are deeply committed to the view that these problems are impossible to solve an impossible to ameliorate without a revolution specifically a proletariat revolution a proletarian revolution I should say specifically without the working class rising up and destroying the infrastructure of capitalist society they want to demonize capitalism and blame capitalism so another paradigm that shows you another way forward another way to make progress that's really meaningful jhula meaningful in terms of ecology we're living in full terms of ethics really meaningful terms these kinds of outcomes really meaningful even in terms of oppression you know a somewhat vague term it's interesting to see just how threatening that is to them but the flipside is again my colleague in China he thinks of he is a vegan activist and yet he doesn't think of veganism as political struggle these people who are our opponents and our enemies from the feminine intersectional feminist intersectional social justice worse it's still worthwhile to note that they at least start off on a common footing with us of seeing us as vegans as a rival social cause a rival political while so many others like my Chinese friend even when they're inside veganism they can't see that social and political element to it and certainly plenty of meat eaters go to eat donuts at a vegan bakery or go to vegan sausages at a vegan restaurant and the last thing on their minds is that they are a part of or supporting or being exposed to what is actually a political message or what is in many ways part of the fabric of an ongoing political movement a badess yen