Q&A about my "Core Message", Domestication vs. the Wild, etc., with Alejandro.

but let's say I prefer Italy that we
find out that a dog is more happy living with humans that treat them reasonably well to be happier than it would be in the wildlife this is a position i'm not saying this is true i know it but if this was if it was true if it was true that hiren could take a dog happier than it would be in the wildlife but in what do you base like it being inherently better for a dog to live in the wild that need a human if the human treats the dog you know reasonably well probably better than another dog's subjective us as that that maybe I've understand I'll have some questions why I know if you would like to make some first just so I'm not beneath contempt then again I'm a vegetarian so that's a bit out of the question yeah that's cool we already hate each other it's cool man just go for it okay um well I've never over first like them reach like you're talking about right now something about we don't need a low vegans don't need to be the majority to have a strong presence or a strong influence let's say in society or in the world would you say that the movement is moving forward like would you say we are closer right now a 22 vegans or veganism having more power than we were five years ago or would you say that's not true uh well the first little caveat there is you know you what I say is true of democratic societies and I'm really talking about wealthy Western corrupt decadent democratic societies so I mean you quite right you give a very good summary of what I said there that we can be only five percent and have a big impact I you know I believe that is true in Canada I believe that is truly in France and Switzerland I did have some fans I don't know if they quit but on my patreon channel actuates of fans living in muslim-majority countries that are not democracy and that's a very different question how convenient ISM have an impact anywhere in North Africa anywhere in the Middle East totally different questions I just put that in his cab yet now where you're from are you sure you're from South America somewhere I ticket yes i am from ecuador ok you're from Ecuador so I mean again I just say I do not assume that that advice I gave would even be true of Ecuador it may be like it may be that I gave advice that's terrific for Ecuador but you know my experience is mostly living in Asia and how you would organize vegan activism even in Cambodia or in Thailand is totally totally different so I just I just put that in his cabin because you you respond to give a very good summary but then you were talking about the whole world and in many ways i'm not talking with the whole world i'm talking about kind of the richest and laziest and most democratic so as just a caveat i want i wanted to poke in there so your question though is pretty easy for an answer are things better now than there were five years ago well more people even know what the idea of veganism is so in that really really basic sense yeah things are better but if you ask you know do I feel the vegan movement is moving in a new direction in a good direction a positive I should know things are pretty bad within the movement you know from the inside looking in things are pretty bad but you know i mean if you've gone from being completely unknown to being something noticed and the people are aware of i mean to give you a funny example here in china when i went out to a small town near the border with myanmar i met a chinese guy there who spoke English and when I said that I was vegan he said oh so you refuse to eat oil you know like durian riders time he said oh so do you refuse to eat all all vegetable oil I was like no I'm vegan you know so it is kind of weird but some of those ideas that are really fringe ideas even within veganism have become very well known it's like God Here I am in China but not even a normal part of China I'm Way out on the border with Myanmar in the middle of no we're and this guy's idea of veganism as vegans are people who refuse to eat oil to eat who have a low-fat diet who have 00 i wanted diet you know so you know it's funny yes we are we are known now and some other really craziest parts of us are known but if you actually talked about as a movement as a political organization we're a total failure so far and you can make a comparison to like the Green Party the green party may be pathetic but at least exists or other really small political movements or make gay rights has been very successful there are many many comparisons but no veganism I think if you compare it to any other movement just thinking about the meaning of the word movement nowhere so far we're all pathetic failure well I think you could add the egg caveat that you're not a complete failure you're a known fader so you have somewhat some success um well um something something I've always wondered about but I know it's like maybe maybe I shouldn't ask you because i don't know if i will understand that point of yours because i know i heard a meeting of yours talking about it and it was a long video and i tried to understand i I just honestly didn't understand like you in principle I believe that it would be better morally speaking for at least most people to be vegan um in most circumstances there are some circumstances where we were well I would not eat meat I wouldn't see it as morally reprehensible as an example if I found roadkill I wouldn't see it as morally reprehensible just disgusting um but for example something that I don't quite get is um some of your like you have as if I understand correctly you have like a moral principle or ground or base we're taking out an animal from what we understand as its natural quote unquote habitat is usually wrong for example with pets not only with cows but for example with with dogs or cats well we cats it is easier for me to see the point because there are carnivores science it's more complicated to say the very very least but I don't fully understand in what do you base and please correct me if I'm misrepresenting your pointed in any in any way but in what do you base like eating inherently better for a dog to live in the wild that with a human if the human treats the dog you know reasonably well probably better than another dog's subjective as as that that may be what like it could you talk a bit about that I it's difficult for me to understand because for example obviously there are humans in in in in tribal conditions and I wouldn't say they necessarily live in a more moral weight than that we do for example humans in their more tribal conditions usually I would say most of them do need to eat at least occasionally meat we can get some b12 supplements we can you know other stuff and like I don't understand that am I making myself understand sure sure sure sure I totally I totally understand in many many people ask me questions about this um you know the thing I'm questioning earlier you refer to in passing one dog being treated well or a dog being treated better than another the fundamental question of values there is what is good for a dog we obviously have some concept that we create as human beings of what is good for humans and what is good for dogs my point is that when we ask this about a lion or a penguin we very clearly start from asking how does the animal live in the wild so we do keep Penguins in captivity in zoos and in other government programs because it's very expensive very few people own penguins as pets but probably a few do probably a few millionaires own a penguin as a pet but if you own it if if you own a penguin yeah oh yeah good example yeah so anyway if you own if you own penguins in your zoo or in your enormous house and you say okay how am I going to treat these penguins well you start by looking at some scientific facts about how they look at in how they live in the wild so what temperature is good for them how much time do they spend swimming how much time they spend standing on the land how big does the swimming pool need to be how many of them should live in one group so like a penguin obviously there are many species penguins are not happy if they're alone and they're not happy if they're too crowded but they want to live in a group so how many how many members in a group will be happy or be normal or natural and again you do have to use the word natural so it is natural for penguins to live in a social group not to just have one penguin living all alone in a swimming pool so it is very clear with some animals that we use the logic of how they live in the wild to you know reconstruct what will be an acceptable or good or good enough environment for them now we may not be able to succeed like maybe you just don't have enough money maybe you've rescued some penguins maybe you have an injured penguin that only has one leg and you're just trying to provide it with a life so that you don't have to kill it you know like there are really situations like that with bears it's very common with horses if you have a horse with three legs what are you going to do you know okay life isn't perfect my point was to draw attention to something that is what we call speciesism which is that vegans even vegans turn off their brains and do not think this way at all about dogs and cats that they do not think about dogs and cats the same way they would think about a penguin or a lion and I have had some extremely stupid responses from vegans who just would say in English they double down on that sir I'm trying not to use too many English idioms but by double down just means they accept that this is stupid and they emphasize it and they write to me very angrily saying your argument makes no sense because penguins and lions are totally different from dogs and cats because bears are totally different from dogs and cats well no they're not totally different in some ways a dog is very similar to a bear no yes there are some differences but there are also some similarities we really need to talk about so as soon as you have that paradigm what I call the wildlife management paradigm which is that you're looking at dogs and cats not as equal to humans but as equal to bears as equal to penguins as equal to lions then we get into some difficult questions and I think the the simplest solution to those questions is that a happy life for a dog is for it to live in wild conditions or even if you have a zoo to live in conditions that are similar to the wild and we would figure out what those conditions are by studying how they live in the wild the same way we do for penguins so again once i think you have those fundamental questions answer to those fundamental values in place i think there are many implications there are many you know it's very clear that long-term the vision i'm looking at is to transition towards a society where we we show our respect for animals not by forcing them to do tricks for humans not by forcing them to entertain our children not by taking them to a pet shop and giving them red fingernails or dying their hair pink which is all things people do to pet dogs by the way I see it all the time you know not by making them into toys but by understanding what a life of dignity is for them by studying how they live in the wild so that's my approach I mean I understand some some of what you say but some of the some of the things that that confused me a bit and maybe depending on your answer and these follow-up questions I could understand your point more fully but I doubt you you're going to answer them in a way that that would actually make me understand it um like for example let's say this is the hypothesis I'm not saying I'm pulling this out of any study or whatever but let's say hypothetically that we find out that is more happy let's define it as I don't know more endorphins happy endorphins going around its brain it can generally be more happy living with humans that treat them reasonably well yes I know it's a subjective term but we can more or less imagine what it is anyways like there's a range of how a human can treat a dog for it to be happier than it would be in the wildlife this is a position i'm not saying this is true i know it but if this was and if this was true if it was true that a human could make a dog happier than it would be in the wildlife um yeah there look uh I think I can I can I can shortcut that because in a sense I've already conceded the point when we talk about injured animals so if you talk about a bear or with only three legs or you talk about a penguin that has maybe a broken wing where one wing is injured then it's very easy because you can say if we put this penguin back in the wild it will die if we put this bareback in the wild will die it would be true I I think with a three-legged dog too you know whatever so the reason why I include that um so we have some funny comments and if comments at you if I start laughing is because somebody says something funny sorry ah this is what other treats its sexual tension haha it's no sure it's not because of the sexual I said I've changed the order it was freezing cold in here it was freezing cold when i started broadcasting and now I'm down to my t-shirt because it's warmed up here uh yeah yeah but you see I think I think the majority of my fans right now are female you might be the only the only male in the room right now but anyway no we got a couple of men we got a couple anyway look so I was just gonna say I think that I'm actually giving you that point when I talk about injured animals because then the choice is between death and life right and still I just say like with many of these things I don't think I have to have an answer that's a hundred percent rational and perfect if you're talking about a very wealthy society like Canada is basically one of the richest countries in the world but still we you know do not have the money to treat bears properly we have many many problems with bears again a huge number of bears and most of the time if you call the government they will just kill the bear instead of even using a tranquilizer because then if they put the bear to sleep they have to put the bear on a truck they have to take it away too it's it's too expensive for the government to do now I know that sounds ridiculous but that is the reality right now in Canada so if you ask is it better to provide this bear with a home whether it's in a zoo or in a person's house or a backyard I think the answer is going to be idiosyncratic it's going to be illogical it's going to be emotional and I sort of accept that but I used to live in Laos and Cambodia what do you think what do you think happens to a three-legged bear in the conditions of poverty we're going to kill the bear and as vegans we can pretend we would never kill a bear [ __ ] you these are third world conditions this is real political you know this political reality now even in Canada I don't know we could pass a law in Canada to force the government to stop killing bears that's an interesting question it really is and you would then have a budget of millions of dollars for helping these bears it really is an interesting question in Canada because in theory our government has unlimited money but in other ways we're running out of money so you know okay is that a priority or not but I just say for me as a vegan I want to be realistic there are vegans who say they will never even kill mice that we should have a society where mice and rats are never killed and I ask have you ever been to a farm whether it's a farm for fruit or a farm for you know grain the reality is we are going to continue killing mice and rats that may be immoral that may be bad now on the other hand you know if you risk if you personally rescue a three-legged bear and let's just say you have a house with a big garden and you keep that bear okay maybe you know many vegans will say you're wonderful many vegans will praise you and say you're a wonderful human being for sale three legged bear many thousands and thousands of vegans well and you will have a very popular YouTube channel you can have YouTube videos of you and your three-legged bear having fun and everyone will say well here's the problem every day you have to buy meat to feed the bearer so now you're killing cows to feed a bear so to me this is again anti vegan so most of these animals were talking about do eat meat yes there are some exceptions I mean rabbits do not eat meat rabbits only eat vegetables but unless we're talking about a herbivore animal then we have another very difficult ethical question even Penguins every day you keep penguins alive you're killing fish so why are we killing cows to keep this three-legged bear alive really why now you ask the question I understand your question was what if the bear has a better life as a pet than it would in the forest and with a three-legged bear it definitely but but my question also is that ethical question that's all don't worry I'm done talking but I would say for me it's not just about the bear or it's not just about the dog or not just about the cat it's also about all the cows that you're killing every day to keep that pedal I've and for vegans this then gets very uncomfortable it's very difficult to answer the question I did included my question that I wouldn't say that for cats because they're carnivores so um if a correct me if I'm wrong like could i summarize your point with um in general like no because usually it would mean indirect support of oil practically it would mean his support of some somehow support the killing of other animals in many cases and but you would concede that in some very specific cases for example a big and three legged dog maybe it would be morally conceivable to keep the pen well yeah I think my real answer that is basically that in in the real world these decisions are going to be made very emotionally they're going to be made irrationally and they're going to be made on a case-by-case basis in an idiosyncratic way the reality is yeah but as you say the reality is if there is one specific elephant and it had whether it has three legs or whatever there's one elephant and everybody in the newspaper is saying this is such a wonderful elephant you know this happens sometimes for some reason the elephant becomes famous and then people donate money then this elephant will be saved that's the reality of the world we live in and sometimes vegans support that kind of thing and sometimes vegans say this is speciesism this is stupid you know why are we helping this one elephants and we were ignoring a million cows or mon cheap so both impulses are there I'm just saying I accept that it's not going to make sense but I also say we need to accept or we need to look at the reality of the fact we can't save all bears maybe you'll be great if we could we can't save all rats we can't so right now the reality is a particular bear we in Canada we had to bear cubs so too baby bears and you know some photographs of them were put in the newspaper and then everyone wanted to save these two baby bears well okay we can you know just because their photograph is in the newspaper and they're cute we can but you know if you tell me we're going to have a no-kill policy for all bears everywhere in Canada I believe me as a vegan I would love to have that debate but I just say the answer is not going to be rational and obviously people making these decisions about their own dogs are totally irrational people making these decisions about their own cats and you know currently in the in the Muslim world really specifically in the Arab world it is very popular for people to own giant cats so you know not just lions and tigers but leopards and that kind of thing so there are people who own those types of predatory cats so it is actually fashionable to own those and people are making those decisions every day and I think they're totally totally rational bike but in a sense I accept the irrationality you know what I mean but something wouldn't you say at least it's usually my personal opinion I would like you to take on that that morality at least for me it must pass through reason because you know anything that you want to be a reasonably practical will have to pass your reasons so that it has efficient or effective effect sorry the resonance in reality but i would say that morality is usually based in emotion like like for example select at least to me most of what i consider morality i know there are other conceptions but most of what i consider morality is usually based on an emotion like on the fact of you and want others to suffer and if you can promote well-being at a reasonable cost then that is morally superior just because of the sake of it being well-being and there's not really a rational there comes a point where you must say like this is the objective and you can have a like a rational do you can like have a rational discussion of why you chose this objective but ultimately it will depend on pre your objectives like you can say for example let's say that I don't know save the Dolphins here and ultimately the reason is gonna be I love dolphins they're cute I like them okay it can be completely different but maybe you get my point like isn't morality usually based on emotion like it doesn't mean it has to be irrational in the fact that it doesn't need to be completely divorced of reason but I think I know like what's your take isn't morality usually for many people based the motion way to some people some somewhere moral dilemmas are based on unwrapped you know on vengeance that that does exist like the concept of just you must punish him because he did this [ __ ] and I'm so [ __ ] angry it would be morally wrong for him to be you know whatever wherever when when he was so wrong with he didn't [ __ ] torture him yeah sure look I do I mean the sense in which many many people think i'm a pessimist but one of the ways in which i'm an optimist is that i do think we're going through a period of you know real cultural progress in that just when I was a child people would be discussing that issue the question of whether or not you should help the the Dolphins while wearing leather gloves and leather shoes and seeing no no conflict with that and the fact that we progressed to the point where at least the people who are having that debate about cute dolphins at least they realize that there's a serious moral obligation them not to wear leather shoes nuts wear the leather gloves you know that if you want to advocate for animal rights veganism is is kind of a prerequisite you can't be you know so this is actually a very significant former progress now you know again the other really optimistic examples i use are gay rights and smoking even alcohol you know the idea of how much alcohol consumption is normal and natural this has changed a lot um so you know yeah you're correct you sketch out the reality of a world in which most moral conversations and moral decision-making is very irrational and very emotional but of course the cultural context for that the questions that even get asked yeah yeah devoid of reason you know but it like that something has its basis in emotion to me doesn't need to mean that it is the voice of reason you know like you can do whatever you want in a very practical well thought and planned way and you do it because I'd only any emotional reason do you choose you know i would divorce the concept of irrational and emotional because well emotion in itself is not rational the presence of emotion does not make you into it I don't know drooling you know like do you get what I'm saying maybe yeah my point was that the context for all that is cultural and it really does change with time in dramatic ways there was a guidebook a tourist guide book for Europe I forget when let's say this is the year 1300 and you know it very casually described how people would would pass their time in England by going to watch executions and this guy book this is just a stupid example but it was describing a man being tortured to death in public in the middle of the city for having stolen a pie a stack of paper so you know in English we say stationery you know now paper was more expensive at the time but still it's an observed crime now at that time in many parts of you know Christian Europe people believe that if you committed a very small crime you were an evil person so it didn't matter like the fact that you stole you made this one small theft you could basically be punished as the same as a murderer because a person who would commit a small crime as an evil person who's willing to create a big crime so those are cultural assumptions another one that's very dramatic well another another change that's very dramatic again within Christian Europe and and the then the world that they were colonized it used to be very common for men to fight duels to fight a duel to the death and many people point this out in America because in America the laws never changed so in the first few decades after the American Revolution and the American Constitution it was still completely normal for men to fight each other to death with swords or with guns over a point of Honor and a point of Honor really could be like you said my girlfriend was fat so now we're going to kill each other was a normal part of American culture at the same time was a normal part of Italian culture by the way I mean different different countries than Europe had different cultures of dueling and men fighting to the death and if whoever went to court the judges would dismiss it that was not considered murder that was not considered a crime if two men agreed that they would fight each other to the death then that wasn't murder that wasn't assault that was completely normal so the irony is in American most countries in Europe since that time they've had new revolutions new laws new constitutions sameen France has had so many revolutions nobody can count obviously some people count but hey Francis had Laurie written many many times America actually the law never changed so there is Lee there's still a country kind of built on those those norms so what changed now you know yes people are emotional yes people are willing to kill each other over these kinds of short-term emotional and irrational decisions these are illustrated you know these examples are illustrations of that but still you can say one sense in which I'm an optimist is that I can see very real progress over 300 years and questions that weren't even asked before now get asked I think today I mean if somebody insults me there there's absolutely no tolerance for escalating it into a you know a deadly contest there's no tolerance that at all and instead the question being asked is well he insulted you but why did you make the situation worse why did you make it more hostile so you know again without even legislation changing a different set of cultural attitudes shapes the moral questions and shapes the moral answers so a game it may seem a trivial or it may seem small but the fact that people now are not wearing leather gloves when they ask those questions I think does lead to different answers I think we're in a period of that kind of cultural change and I hope vegans can be leaders of that cultural change instead of being a bad joke in the middle of that cultural change what do you by the way only it's kind of a short answer but someone asks them to Chad what would you think about someone owning a fish tank and just feeding the fish I assume vegan stuff yeah I mean I think it's I think it's bad but you know for me as a vegan it's not my top 10 list for for activism I mean there was a woman here there's a woman here I'll admit I was somewhat attracted to here in China who I was chatting with and one of the distinctive things about her she owned these very colorful fish that I happen to know a lot about it's a long story why I know about these fish involving another woman but anyway uh she owned what are called Thai fighting fish these are fish from Thailand and one day I stopped by and chatted with this woman I said oh what what happened all your fish because they're very very bright and colorful and this is a type of fish that wants to alone they're not happy in a group in nature if two of them are put together they'll kill each other they'll fight to the death so they're they're relatively popular because you can keep them you can keep one fish in each fishbowl sort of thing and and they're happier that way and that's also an interesting question again I looked into that you do if you want them to be happy again you have to recreate their natural conditions as closely as possible which includes places for them to hide the places they feel safe there all these different thanks and she said oh um one day it was cold and they all died that's it they're they're evolved for that climate in Thailand and here in conveying its it's too cold nailed I'd you know I mean I think inevitably if you're gonna own animals as a decoration if you're going to own animals as a form of entertainment um this is this is the result of course they're disposable of course their lives mean nothing in a sense I think their lives mean even less than animals being raised for meat you know so yeah it's bad now on my list of things to do as a vegan you screaming at people who keep fish as pets is nowhere on the list but you know I do think I do think in terms of the human attitudes involved I think it's very clear to see that there is a cycle of suffering there that I think any any vegan has to kind of object to but I you know if you want to make exceptions with everything there exceptions obviously you know some people are doing some people have scientific reasons they have some legitimate reason to keep fishing at captivity but it's bad if that's your buddy for me whoa isn't it I was thinking well you were telling me the thing about the fish and the women like if you wrote about this somewhere like maybe as a blog or whatever like I could imagine the story about the fish and the women being something like there's a lot of fish house they're eating English like there are a lot of visions I know yeah but I mean you know I think that's one of the advantages of me being on YouTube now back when I used to write when he started a blog people got more easily offended by this I think people are aware of the human reality I mean right now I'm streaming this live we're talking voice to voice if mean I think that actually there are a lot of advantages to to doing this in video format so we'll see but I mean I think actually that same story probably if I wrote it and a blog I can imagine pretty easily the type of hate mail I would get from past experience but yeah well cuz well we're talking about gray areas we're talking about conflicting things right so surely you can talk without without there being someone hating about it somewhere surely come no every every video somebody heard like you cannot say something meaningful without someone hating on yeah I would say like if you manage to say something without someone hating on it you probably haven't have a real audience yeah or and it truly was not meaningful like I don't know a lot of non meaningful stuff still receive a lot of hate every every video I point put up I get some comments from people saying you're fat you're ugly you're stupid and I get some comments from women saying hey I heard you're single I want to meet you let's hook up so you get this range of responses most of them shallow nobody mean to give credit where it's due I really do I really do appreciate my audience and I do get philosophical in really meaningful response to people sometimes talking about their own lives son is talking about the political issues involved and look I want to give credit to you too alejandro we've now talked for more than 30 minutes we never talked before but I think I think your questions are meaningful like I don't think this is [ __ ] I don't think this is a waste of anyone's time and so you know you you you create content and then you hope that the people who who need to see it will find it and sometimes the people who need to see it are the people who want to see it and you know sometimes the people who need to see it are people who hate it and who get very angry seeing it but maybe that maybe that has you know maybe that has an impact to right maybe something good comes from that I gotta say like almost I think I think I've never heard a video of yours you've definitely erased some points and not necessarily and I don't necessarily agree usually I at least can't see your perspective but like I don't think i've ever heard a video of years so far and i definitely i don't think i have heard like fourth of them but still i don't think i have heard of any of you so far that i found um I know like stupid like you're actually entertaining and sometimes this entertaining be like because you get these very nuanced points although they tend to be interesting issues um yeah I like that that's a comet i would give you like I I usually enjoy your videos even if I don't agree they're there they're very they're interesting perspectives if nothing else well thanks very much I appreciate that go ahead you should keep talking it's cool huh really um oh yeah and what was then create could you talk about about a bit about how how has the kids book going I find that very very interesting I think like these little things that people many times don't put a lot of waiting i do think like something like a kids book someone was saying in the chat a quorum something like children being a good place to put some effort when you want like to normalize the behavior or to make it a bit more mainstream because well it is true that you need to be a majority or even half the population to have an impact obviously if more than half in population eats meat or animal products obviously that there will be slaughtered like it's not gonna all come from roadkill you know um but I find that the project really really interesting like how has that been going uh well basically I've been talking to different illustrators I got a new email from one illustrator or today or within the last 24 hours um the illustrators I talk to you who are actually successful like people who are already earning their money-making children's books they're busy so one of them who is a professional illustrator she said she would talk to me again in December so she told me that a few months ago so I guess we're going to talk again soon and there was another illustrator who was vegan who did reply to me and said she was interested but then never replied again I think the the other good news is that most of those illustrators they do not get paid very much money per page and the book is not that long I assume if you search by the way if you searched for the word story book on my channel just my name is listen to us if you search for the word story book you'll get a couple of different videos that include the script because it's now been translated into a few languages already so it's in English it's in Chinese it's in it's in Russian I think I've got a German translation coming Oh yo a Swedish translation too so a lot of people are excited about the book just based on what I've written but yeah you talk to illustrators on a case by case basis and I mean I may have to do fundraising if the illustrator wants a few hundred dollars for each page you know to be paid at the start and that and I decide that's really the best illustrator I can get then we would have to do fundraising for that so as you know it really is a shame I am frustrated that the court case in Thailand is not finished that it hasn't been completed yet because I people obviously expect me to complete that court case before I do fundraising for another cause so we I don't know I'll at some point i'll have to look at that let's look at when are we finally going to finish this court case in thailand and should i do fundraising for that but maybe I can work with an illustrator who will just be happy to do the illustration one's for you know a percentage of the money that's generated but this book is going to generate very little money amino this is really a charity project to make this book available and so that's I guess I'm a combination of optimistic and pessimistic about that but I think I think maybe the bad news is it really is possible that the court case will either delay or kind of sabotage trying to get the book to happen and as i mentioned recently in another video durianrider and cheetah they openly said that when i try to do fundraising for the book they would they would sabotage it however the good news is if I was doing fundraising to the book it would be very little money the total amount of money would be so low that they might not matter so like when I heard that I am not so my kind of recent video was like what the like what the [ __ ] happened do you have any like well how I can't imagine someone like being very fair equally interested in veganism and and wanting to [ __ ] up this kind of project you have so a TV if it is of someone you despise or hate or whether it's like why would you try to [ __ ] up that that's just damn it like oh do you have a how do you know that this happened like this meaning two sabotages oh because they did it on the internet because it was I guess it's not secret so no the only reason I know but they they talked about this on the internet no no it's not a rumor oh but you know oh look i was gonna say I'm again cuz it's great to argue but we know gone 40 minutes so I should wrap it up but um you know the the sad thing is I had a video a few months ago talking about the idea of dying for veganism of getting killed because you're vegan be I was actually in response to another youtuber pena she was saying she was gonna quit YouTube because she was afraid she would get killed now I think it's [ __ ] and she hasn't quit YouTube and I think she wasn't really afraid of getting killed but in any case whether or not that was [ __ ] that video I raised a bunch of questions what does it mean to live for the cause dive because something that's really sad that is reflected in this whole discourse connected to durianrider and the court case and the story book why is it that the threat to me is from other vegans I'm not afraid of the meat industry killing me I'm not afraid of the meat industry stopping that book from getting published that's no problem the the the dairy industry the milk industry they're not trying to stop the book from getting published other vegans are trying to stop me from publishing a choice to my book that's you know supports vegans it's basically it's vegan propaganda for children right so that is I mean sadly that's I think the deepest and the shallowest lesson we have to draw from this is that I'm spending my time managing hostility from and sabotage sabotage i think is the word from other vegans and i don't i don't need them to support me but that is really what we have to reflect on anyway it's been great talking to you I do hope that at some point in the future you'll become vegan it's always nice to open the door to someone it's not vegan but obviously you're already interested enough that you get the whole point of the movement I mean I can tell from this conversation you know I didn't know when I had you I didn't know if you were going to be a you know a bit of a troll or someone who wasn't really interested but obviously you already get the point and you're already interested in some of these more nuanced and sophisticated questions about how we treat animals in the wild and the long-term prospects for the movement so it's great it's great to meet you alondra and look you know life is long maybe I have you on the show again one year from now maybe five years from now I don't know my life here in China is unpredictable but it would be great to get you on the show some time and hear about you know what's going on in South America and maybe how your own your own views have changed because I met one year is a long time on the internet maybe one here in the future you know you would really have a different perspective on many of these things I I bonus yen