I respect you enough to disrespect you ("ethical" cow-milk & watered-down veganism)

here you know if you can just do
meatless Mondays if you can just be a reducer terian if you can just take these compromising baby steps good for you I give you a pat in the head and I don't respect you enough to try to educate you on the matters of principle that shape my life because somehow my life is so much so much more meaningful than yours it's a basic paradox isn't it I respect you enough to disrespect you as opposed to I regard you as some kind of mental infant and I don't have the respect I don't have enough respect for you to really be honest to really say this might upset you but here's how it is here's the matter of principle here's what's so meaningful for me in my life here's what matters so much from my perspective about the future of planet Earth the future of our society this is why I care so much about the exploitation and deaths of millions of animals that it reshapes my life on on a day-to-day basis and this is why I think you should care also the replace because the backbone would never be what the basement was start with the concession that not everyone can become vegan not everyone can become vegan immediately or overnight not everyone can quit smoking on the one hand there are people who can't some quit smoking in the short term but there are also people who are never gonna quit smoking they can't do it today they can't do it tomorrow they can't do it the next decade they're gonna keep on smoking cigarettes until they die even if they try their hardest to quit some there are some people who can never quit smoking however it's completely false to take from this the lesson that we should go around just telling people that it's ok to be a part-time vegan to do meatless Mondays that the principle that thing doesn't matter that it's ok to tell a smoker that as long as they're reducing the number of cigarettes they smoke that's ok or to tell a smoker that you know cigarettes aren't really that bad now differences are many - it's actually quite easy for people to grasp why they should quit smoking especially in this day and age to understand why veganism is morally imperative shall we say it's quite difficult fuel to grass and many people including viewers on this channel some of you will have become vegan for one set of reasons when you were younger and remained vegan but actually your reasoning changed actually your moral justifications for vegan as it may have profoundly changed from one period of your life to another some people start off as vegans for health reasons then later at sea ecology or then later its animal rights or what have you these things can change even within your life while you're remaining vegan your understanding may deepen or broaden or just shift there may be things you used to care about you don't care about them anymore especially if you started veganism off with an emotionally traumatic experience because there are people in the short-term they see an animal get slaughtered they have some kind of traumatic experience that suddenly makes them care about animal rights and in the short term that's all they need to know that's all they think about that's all they care about later I don't know water pollution air pollution other complex questions about the future of industrial agriculture what have you creep in it's the same position that I hold on drinking cow's milk it if it can be guaranteed that the animals do not suffer as a result of you doing that then I have no problem with it it's MOLLE unjustifiable to unnecessarily take advantage of an animal merely for the resources that it can provide there is a reason why the word milk is synonymous of the word exploitation it is somewhat difficult to imagine the scenario of talking to someone who really does not understand that smoking is bad for them in the 21st century it was the case not that long ago but to imagine yourself talking to someone where you're not just trying to motivate them to quit smoking when they already know and agree that it's something they should do but you're actually trying to educate them on the matters of principle involved in smoking versus non-smoking and with veganism it's both the case that we have that uphill struggle that you know the concept of veganism is new to people some people don't know if it's healthy some people don't know if it's possible some people sincerely do not think it's possible for them to become vegan and the matters of principle really are very complex and we don't agree amongst ourselves it's what they keep learned from this channel it's that the level of agreement on matters of principle amongst vegans is much less than anyone could have possibly supposed with examples of you know what to do about vivisection what to do a pet ownership castration what's doable treatment of wild animals in contrast to domesticated animals there are many issues that I really do consider profound and worth debating where the debates are still very fresh very unsettled very divisive within veganism do you respect someone enough to really deal with the matters of principle on a case-by-case basis when you're talking to people or do you suppose they're like your hypothetical granddad who's over 70 years old who's never gonna quit smoking and where there's just no point talking to him about how bad smoking is or why he should quit smoking you can't regard the whole world that way but some people really are that way some people never can be vegan but in terms of you know having contempt for your fellow man if you fellow human beings I think you're starting off on the wrong foot by saying to people oh well here this is good enough for you here you know if you can just do meatless Mondays if you can just be a reducer terian if you can just take these compromising baby steps good for you I'll give you a pat in the head and I don't respect you enough to try to educate you in the matters of principle that shape my life because somehow my life is so much much more meaningful than yours now I I have a vivid memory of conversation half of the woman conversation went on for quite a while I could say why a woman who was born with no arms and no legs and I don't mean her arms only went part way she had absolutely no limbs no arms and no legs and one of the reasons why I set and spoke with her for quite a while was that she was afraid that a certain dog was going to attack her and that dog was known to me it was a violent dog a particular dog and her fears were not baseless so I said okay don't worry because I couldn't I couldn't put the dog away I couldn't get rid of the dog so you know don't worry okay I'll sit here with you and I'll talk with you until somebody came together so to speak or until someone came and got the dog we had a very interesting conversation memorable be in many ways she's smart sorry I don't know where we only had that one conversation with you a smart woman hard-working woman and like many of you watching this video she spent a lot of her time at a computer because she had no arms and no legs I assumed she had some kind of a harness you know people that they have disability I've seen this before they have in effect a kind of joystick let's put onto your chest you can use your your head and your neck to your chin to manipulate the the computer um obviously she relies on other people to some extent people who are paid to so much that people were volunteers to some extent I assume members of her family I don't know to feed her to clothe her to bathe her to help her go to the bathroom it would be incredibly difficult for her to become vegan many of you watching this video video you will know the agony of refusing your own mother's cooking of saying no mom don't cook for me or if you cook for me I'm not gonna eat it I'm gonna refuse to eat it because of veganism however you probably do that with two hands and two feet you probably have been through that scenario where you had the option of cooking for yourself where you had the option of cooking for your mother if not now then one day soon in the future imagine how difficult that would be to say to your mother no I'm refusing your cooking if you could never cook for yourself if you could never be in the position of cooking for your mother you could never take the initiative where you were in a position of Perpetual dependency on those around you now obviously this woman with the severe physical disability if she actually becomes a millionaire and is employing people as her staff to take care of her she could demand to be vegan but that's very unlikely to happen and that was not the situation she was she was living in at the time so when I say not everyone can be vegan I do not mean that the idol millionaires of the world like Elon Musk and Bill Gates PPK you know I do not mean that able-bodied basically intelligent people cannot be vegan but it's true whether it's for mental reasons emotional reasons or physical reasons physical disability and so on just as there are some people who will never quit smoking I do accept there are some people who will never quit eating meat but still there's a point in dealing with the matters of principle and dealing them dealing with those matters of principle in a way that's rigorous em is responsible and extends to you as the person talking to me the fundamental respect that you can handle these questions you can handle these problems the same way I can you know it's not overwhelming for you any more than it's overwhelming for me even though many of us at some point felt overwhelmed you know the actual sight of how milk is produced of how the milk and dairy industry operates of how the cows are impregnated how they're exploited the the sight of what it really looks like to have animals living on a concrete floor in a steel cage their whole lives where that's the only reality they know yes for some of us it's overwhelming but to talk about that in a matter that's Frank and that again I mean it's it's a basic paradox isn't it I respect you enough to disrespect you as opposed to I regard you as some kind of mental infant and I don't have the respect I don't have enough respect for you to really be honest to really say this might upset you but here's how it is here's the matter of principle here's what's so meaningful for me in my life here's what matters so much from my perspective about the future of planet Earth the future of our society you know modern Western society or modern Chinese society wherever you're living this is why I care so much about the exploitation and deaths of millions of animals that it reshapes my life on on a day to day basis and this is why I think you should care also do I respect you enough to disrespect you the other day a young woman here at the school and it's significantly sir she's a she's a conventionally beautiful young woman I don't know if she's 19 or 21 I don't know I don't want to know um she came up to me and said there were other people in the room and said in a sort of loud chirpy voice oh so you're vegan I said no how did you figure it out you know you know there were other people around kind of amused by the the conversation and she gave this very peculiar series of statements that she's not vegan but a lot of the other young women at her college are vegan her College United States and she tried really hard to be vegan once and she managed to not eat chicken for one year while eating all other forms of meat and dairy blah blah blah and my response that was humorous and was received as humorous other people in the room you know laughed a little bit pardon me I said to her because she insisted that she had tried really hard said more than once she tried her vegan I said to her well it sounds to me like you didn't try really hard at all I said but you know you're young still maybe next year you can try harder and you can fail harder too it's not much of a joke but she was slightly amused in other people were more amused that was not taken as offensive in the context of that that peculiar conversation but still it was clear to me that for her I think precisely because she's a good-looking young woman nobody had ever said anything like that there before I think she had told the same story many many times when she had met vegetarians or vegans and I think every single time people have responded oh oh good for you good for you dear oh you know you want a pat on the back you want a pat on the head you know oh that's the best you can do like really assuming this woman is is so stupid or so lacking in self-discipline that she couldn't possibly do what other young women at our school already doing or do what I'm doing on a daily basis living in exactly the same circumstances she and I live in the same school we eat we literally eat at the same buffet every day all you need to do to be vegan here is choose different items at the same buffet table that I myself line up for standing next to her so you think it's hard if you think you can't do it in this scenario I know exactly how hard it is or exactly how easy it you know sure youth and beauty especially in our culture become a strange pretext for treating people as if they're not morally responsible for their own actions as if they're not to be taken seriously in questions of moral principle and questions of personal responsibility and in the contrary even though I joked around with her I don't start from the assumption that she's any stupider than I was at age 19 if she's 19 or 21 whatever she is I don't start with the assumption that she's a lost cause I don't start with the assumption that she's in the category of your grandpa hypothetical grandpa who's over 70 years old and it's just never gonna quit smoking where it's a lost cause you've tried he's tried he knows all the facts don't start that way at all and it is disturbing to me in the middle of her of her video in the middle of a natural vegans video responding to sorsa the way she just throws out this idea that it's it's effective activism it's the most effective activism to talk to meat eaters to throw away the whole matter of principle throw away the question of ethical veganism in principle and just talk about reduced Arianism just talk about compromising baby steps as disturbing to me and again the matters of principle plenty of you hate me because I talk about this stuff they are divisive they're divisive within vegan the veganism and they're they create friction between you and meat eaters in your life if you talk about them but I do think it's genuinely meaningful and worthwhile to come down to the the fundamentals on these issues and the rift between me and unnatural vegan actually is very fundamental it is very profound it's not just a personality conflict whether a cat can conceptualize exploitation or not is beside the point the fact that we can recognize such acts is immoral therefore means 'we have a moral responsibility to not commit such acts for example if i walk up to a black person who doesn't understand English and starts spouting a bunch of racist slurs towards it I'm being racist whether he can conceptualize that or not I see no problem with consuming ethically produced honey it's the same position that I hold on drinking cow's milk it if it can be guaranteed that the animals do not suffer so I had a conversation with this guy think about this I'll give a link to his channel by email he made a video many months ago addressing some misconceptions that natural vegan promotes misconceptions about veganism it seems so simple and straightforward to start off with the principle a unifying principle a great myth like veganism exists to reduce animal suffering but you're starting on a false footing and when you keep walking down that path you might be amazed what strange places it leads you to I don't believe that veganism is about reducing animal suffering in part because I don't believe in that kind of simple simplistic sloganeering approach to politics and veganism in practice is a political problem as I said in an earlier video if you want to quit smoking as just one person then it may not be political that's just one person struggle what have you but if we want to quit smoking as a society if we want to abolish the use of tobacco if I want everyone in the world to quit smoking eventually if I want to see it disappear then that's political it involves the government it involves you involves me involves all of us working together this question unnatural vegan raises of ethically produced milk sadly is not just hypothetical if you do a google search for a hings dairy that other people pronounce ahimsa dairy it's a Sanskrit word surprise there is a movement within the united states to adapt vaguely hindu notions of ethical milk production to make small-scale farms produce happy milk so there are people including possibly some vegans who are actually following a natural vegans advice on this and paying money for cows to live their whole lives in a hutch in confinement producing milk for human beings to consume i do not think that's ethical or advisable and my reasoning is profoundly different from a natural vegans yes I can present a complex argument on that but I can also present a dirt simple argument on it the complex arguments I mean ultimately they have to do with concepts like dignity that are not ethically simple and that some people who watch this channel like there are people who enjoy this channel but who project what I say about the dignity of animals suffering the question of the criterion of suffering I think it doesn't ask the right questions doesn't bring us to the right answers either if a lion lives in the wild for only five years it's gonna end your tremendous suffering at every stage of its life growing up competing with other Lions hunting ranging being bullied around bossed by the other Lions in the competition within the lion pack may be miserable disease hunger changes in the weather sleeping outdoors this Lions life in the wild in many objective ways may be miserable may have a lot of suffering and then especially towards the end this Lions death may be long and slow and painful in the wild at the end of let's say it's 5 year lifespan life in the wild can be nasty brutish and short do I think it would be better for that lion to instead live for 10 years in captivity where it deals with none of those sources of stress and none of those sources of suffering no I don't because I think that this phony utilitarian approach to veganism is horseshit I think the questions of what really is a life of dignity for an animal are very difficult to ask and very difficult to answer because they make us uncomfortable as human beings they make us question our relationships with their own pets with cats and dogs they make us question the meanings of our own lives in a way that we don't want to look at it's it's very convenient to use this this phony utilitarian approach but look where it leads us it leads to vegans approving of happy milk well yeah you know what there's the dignity of the animal involved I don't think it's a life of dignity for an animal even in ahimsa dairy even in you know high high ethical even if the cow is treated same way pet dog is treated in your living room with as much kindness with as much human hospitality because I don't think human hospitality is appropriate for cows or lions or dogs I think the moral baseline we choose has to be based on on it has to reflect how those animals live in the wild including their their struggles their suffering etc in the wild it's beneath the cow's dignity to live its life in captivity as a domesticated animal producing milk for me to drink even if it's happy milk even if the cow doesn't suffer if it's if it's suffering is reduced to zero or near zero but it's also beneath my dignity as a human being because I do not subscribe to the philosophy the human being should live like vampires sucking on the breasts of quadrupeds it's ridiculous to me and yes you know I mean on natural vegan even the name of her Channel suggests that you know a rejection of the appeal to nature fallacy appeals to nature appeals to the concept of nature can be fallacious but it doesn't mean that there are always fallacious doesn't mean the concept of nature itself is somehow totally invalid it has no use in our lives or in this in this world yes it is unnatural for a human biped to drink the milk of a cow or a lion or any other milk producing quadruped ed I think it's deeply disturbing for a human being to drink the milk of a monkey I know can I come up with a scenario in a science fiction book on a desert island where someone would need to do that okay there's some some crazy ethical scenario we can come up with but we're talking about the real world here and we're talking about a world where you know a hing satheri exists where this type of ethical milk you know this type of milk where they claim the cow doesn't suffer and someone where this really is being produced at a premium price for people to buy and consume and unnatural vegan with with vegan in her name is approving of that at the same time that she's approving of vegans consuming honey you know not even gonna bother mentioning here why did I never reply to this specific controversy before because I have just had some email with we think about this the other guy in that video before because I thought that what a natural vegan had to say was so stupid that it wasn't worth replying to and it didn't seem to me as as fundamentally challenging as this issue of domesticated pets castration of dogs that you now know I've devoted quite a lot of time to now why is it so stupid because there's a much simpler approach to veganism that refutes this problem or obviates this problem and that is the concept of doing the best you can and you know it's out of style it's out of fashion it sounds Christian it sounds hokey it sounds philosophically unsophisticated in contrast to these totally insincere utilitarian arguments and a lot of the other posturing a political posturing that happens within it within veganism but you know what about doing the best you can I don't need to eat honey I don't need to drink cow's milk it happens that science proves to us these things are not healthy anyway I mean if cow's milk cured cancer we'd have a very different set of questions instead of cow's milk causing cancer or correlating to cancer or promoting cancer making worse a long list of health conditions so cow's milk is not healthy for human beings anyway if it if it were maybe the questions be asking to be different but you know what about just doing the best you can yes we have this fancy phrase as much as is possible and practicable yeah I know I've heard it I've read it - doing the best I can whether it's in reference to my diet the self-discipline in my daily life or whether it's in reference to my reaching out to and educating my fellow human beings for one thing doing the best I can it it definitely excludes honey it definitely excludes dairy products unless they're in a medicine in the form of a medicine that I crucially need to live that cures a disease I have and there are vegans in that situation you can have a pill that has you know qaol qaol ingredients cow milk is a minor ingredient you don't have a choice you don't have an alternative you ask for the pill without that ingredient but you can't get it it's tough like life is full of tough compromises that way but doing the best I can also applies to these other scenarios whether I'm having the conversation with the girl who literally has no arms and legs or I'm talking to the able-bodied young American college student who says she tried really hard to be vegan because she stopped eating chicken for one year and then went back to eating chicken um I don't know it to them I don't know it to myself it's not about a utilitarian principle of reducing suffering or anything else you know what if I talk to you I'm gonna do the best I can I'm gonna talk to you about the real principle of the thing what really matters what's really meaningful to me I'm not gonna give you a watered-down dumbed down halfway version of veganism I'm not gonna sell you on reduce at Arianism I'm not gonna tell you that meatless Mondays are okay and taking halfway steps is okay for the same reasons that if you're a cigarette smoker I wouldn't tell you oh well but you know smoking cigarettes is not that bad oh well you know I'm like my grandfather lived to be more than 80 years old and he smokes or so it's okay it's not that bad I'm never gonna tell you it's okay maybe I can have a sympathetic conversation with you maybe I can have a humorous and lighthearted conversation with you you know it doesn't have to be you know tear-jerking or what-have-you but yeah that's the simpler principle the thing is just doing the best you can I do it for the love I'll do it footage no but I know these suck the biggest wheel so they keep me over told what until you would have hated foe