[Interview:] The Ecological and Ethical Core of Veganism (vs. Freelee, etc.)

so what is the single most important
thing that you think I should know about vegans on YouTube about this whole sort of subset of the vegan community Wow I know sure okay look you know I answer your question with a question how would any of us be living our lives if we actually believed in slogans like save the planet you know and I think vegans sincere vegans are trying to come up with answers to that question about a shin so I want to actually take a step back for a second you said in your interview with the light winds that assuming durianrider is not about your ego it's about veganism and what you were what you just said reminded me of that um can you explain that a little bit yeah you got all day I know I know I know yeah look I mean you know so my dramatic video the one video that is more than a hundred thousand views the video I break down weeping in I think states that most passionately and then the fundraising video says it again you know I feel that these people took something you know good and earnest and pure you know at the core of veganism itself and they dragged it through the mud they made it something that people regard with contempt and pity they made it something infamous and trashy and you know they made it into a very profitable business for themselves at the same time which is hardly surprising I've said before I'll say again very briefly you know at the core of veganism is simply the moral resolution of somebody who's getting on a train and he's hungry but he's not going to eat a doughnut because he knows that a doughnut contains eggs and dairy there's nobody else to see him do that the eggs and dairy are invisible he does it because he's alright it's the right thing to do and he says you know what this matters enough to me that I'm going to go hungry for a couple of hours you know because I care I whether it's that I care about animal rights or I care about ecology I care about the consequences of my actions I'm going to do the right thing I think that's beautiful and I think that's a basis for something so positive and so wholesome and so wonderful in the world and I can say you know I encourage you to do it I can encourage your grandmother to do it I can encourage a kid to do it you know it's wholesome and wonderful and good and they've taken it and they've dragged it through the mud you know so yeah what why why go to court you know that's why at some point we have to stand up and say no veganism is not about violence and defamation and it's not about bikinis and bicycles and weight loss fads there's actually supposed to be an ethical and ecological core to what veganism is and you know I I just happen to be the canary in the coal mine I just happen to be the guy the latest guy that's happened to and you know who stood up and and said look I'm not that easy to push over because as you may know from your research quite and during writer has done this to quite a number of other people but in this case you did it the wrong guy can you can you tell me who are some people that during writer has done this to in the past I have been looking at them for a while but I'm interested to hear well look everyone everyone's playing it everyone's playing a different game everyone's playing a different game by different rules and we pretend it's the same game oh right and the other person sorry the other person who's still in Chiangmai is Hannah Chloe so well I okay um I've got a short video on Hannah that's not an hour I forget it's eight minutes or something why reflect on the morality of all that and the sexual allegations counter allegations obviously you know most people playing this game end up emotionally devastated when they didn't think they would and I'm the guy who wasn't you know like all these other people like Jack Francis name you've probably heard before he actually sent me you know a note of appreciation on the internet because he said when when durianrider made allegations against him he just collapsed he just went into a depression I went to do an emotional downward spiral and he couldn't deal with it he couldn't stand up for himself or what have you now you know so many different people react to the same sort of thing in different ways there was another guy whose screen name was passed and fruit and he was terrified when durianrider made the same threats against him and Chiang Mai I forget if it's one year ago two years ago I think it's just one year ago and he left town he ran away you know so probably that's what during my I thought I would do he thought I would collapse into tears or I would run out of town and I didn't I said okay see what you see me and so you know I'm a middle-aged intellectual who spent my whole life working with books in my desk I never thought I was the toughest guy in Chiang Mai but I ended up exposing during writer for the very real coward and hypocrite that he is just by not backing down okay so Jamie from Jeremiah to freely and I know you said that she's the least interesting aspect of the story I'm actually really interested to hear about what why you think that what what is your take on freely on her Raza Ford diet um and why do you think she's not worth thinking about I you know look YouTube as a medium is primarily driven by talking I think you gotta have a lot to say as you probably guess from this interview I do have a lot to say if you look at my CV I'm someone who cares a lot about history and politics and a whole range of issues and yeah people who hate me say I like the sound of my own voice that's true but that's part of why I'm on YouTube freely is somebody at this point who has nothing to say so that fundamentally makes her pretty boring now as it happens her diet is diet doesn't work it's not scientifically sound her claims that she spent hundreds of hours researching it are very easily tested and refuted her her claims but let me just live systems but also you know her claims about having credentials the Australian press already exposed that those were false so before the Australian press did I did a series of videos says now I had at least two different videos talking about both her pseudoscience and her dubious claims to having you know a diploma or certificate relevance to being a dietitian and put the Australian newspapers took that a step further and actually you know spoke to the College where she falsely claimed to have a certificate from so you can fact check that really easily that's a two-second Google search so no they did I think that answers your your first question same or you just you just ask the second question you've asked have I have I tried her diet no sure no no totally fine no I am NOT an expert in rato for I am NOT an ex raw foodist of any kind and I never I've never tried a weight loss diet of any kind so I'm very different from other people who can disillusion with this stuff but I am a vegan and I've been through you know different periods of time of trying to cope with veganism as a diet in different ways as most of us have I walk past her on the street in Chiang Mai no and I mean I think at the start of this there was this illusion that somehow freely in Durham bar there were very separate people and that they weren't denouncing people in the same way but as you'll see in the research of this article freely as a long history of just being a battle-axe herself I she doesn't threaten to beat people up but she they'd the two of them play a very similar game in reality also when this started I I assumed that all the rumors of them having broken up were nonsense but now more and more comes out suggesting that there's actually some truth to them well yeah I'm not sure they just posted a video together but we'll see you know it's look it's pretty weird Cheeta was the one who did the work on this but I mean you know if you're on vacation in Thailand and you're staying in separate hotel rooms it's a little weird that's all it's already an indication so you know I honestly I could care I could not care less about their personal lives but you know Cheeta pointed that stuff out and then later I said well you know when you put the pieces together I guess that's where it's at yeah so what is the single most important thing that you think I should know about viens on YouTube about this whole sort of subset of the vegan community Wow sure okay look you know I answer your question with a question how would any of us be living our lives if we actually believed in slogans like save the planet you know and I think vegans sincere vegans are trying to come up with answers to that question for me the answer is not kicking down the door of a restaurant and screaming at people who are eating hamburgers that they should stop in hamburgers and for me the answer is also not putting on a bikini going to Thailand photographing yourself on the beach on Instagram this kind of lifestyle activism so I'm in the awkward position of being a genuine moderate of actually endorsing democratic pluralistic political means of pursuing social change I wish I could tell you that vegans are wonderful people just because they're vegan but they're not what this whole you know scandal illustrates is that yes vegans can be stupid they can be scumbags they can be violence you know they can be homophobic they can have all the evils of any other part of society and if you don't really get organized if you don't you know embrace the same organizational methods that throw human history have prevented political movements from becoming extremists then you can very quickly spiral into the same kind of ugly extremism that you might associate with neo-nazis or communists um okay I really appreciate your time and I know it's sort of hard using the Internet in China a little difficult so I appreciate you taking time to Skype with me and I'll be in touch for sure oh yeah you could send me that email abhi great okay great I mean I just say now that you've got a basis in it I mean you know I hope I'm not talking to you about a dead body you know three weeks Jermel but immuno this is crazy we're dealing with extremely malevolent extremely stupid crazy people as part of a overtly extremist movement so yes you know the threats of violence are real the danger is real and I want to address that not just from my own sake but for the future of veganism because I do not want veganism to be a joke and that's exactly what it has become I've understand