Rape allegations are a very serious matter: Norvegan, Durianrider, etc.

so I'm starting at the end of the story
here this is an email I received today and this is not the first time that Michael has threatened to make our private email public apparently it's going ahead with it and so that is what has forced me to make this video sharing private correspondence with you the audience cuz he's gonna do it anyway and he's made it very clear that he's gonna do this to try to blacken my character or show everyone what a terrible manipulative person I am again it's not as if I'm out here even disputing that I'm a terrible person but go ahead Michael this I'm showing first because it is the reason why I'm sharing correspondents in the rest this video that otherwise I would have treated as extremely sensitive extremely private and would have taken to my grave with me as a secret this is a sample of the kind of email I sent Michael this is relatively early in our correspondence and I think he interprets my tone of voice here as somehow being manipulative somehow having a hidden agenda he responds this in quite a paranoid and offensive way but really those of you who have gotten used to hearing the sound of my voice over 700 videos will see I really am trying to help the situation I am trying to make a difficult situation better and I imagine I sympathized the joys and I imagine he's in a very difficult situation but anyway obviously I've only made things worse and for that again I apologize already made an apology video and I you know look I feel sorry for the guy anyway I wrote here Michael you must be aware that I have been good to you for these many months when you were a complete stranger on some level you must be aware that I have been good to you today during this strange correspondence it was a day where he sent me a ton of email all in one day I'm only not sharing at all because it would bore you to tears but whatever I guess in his video he's gonna he's threatened to share everything so I guess he's gonna put up every single email he ever wrote me and every email I sent to him I don't even want to read that stuff again but anyway or perhaps you can see it when you calm down and reread it considering again that I am NOT a mind reader and again I simply believed what Hannah told me I was not as you insanely suggest frustrated was persuaded by durianrider I was persuaded by Hannah herself I was not as you insanely suggested persuaded by Doreen Ryder I was by hannah herself so in this video you were gonna see what Hannah told me which can I assume was totally private correspondence I would take to my grave a secret but no Michael is putting this stuff on the internet so therefore I have to put it in the internet which is a very strange position he put me in I don't know why he did this to me I don't know why he did it to himself it's really a very sad day in many ways um I take no joy in it believe me but anyway what's being eluded here to here is that indeed a lot of the email I got from Michael really seemed insane to me where he was saying like I was as if I was working for durian writers if I was consciously an intentionally supporting during writers position if you've seen my earlier video you already have a pretty clear idea of what what the underlying issue is here he was expecting me to read between the lines and to interpret the truth as being the exact opposite of what both he and Hannah had said was the truth both both privately and publicly I know that you think you have nothing to apologize for in this correspondence period you're wrong period and I know that you think I owe you an apology you're wrong about that too for precisely the same reason all I did was believe what Hannah told me directly and what she stated publicly that's what anyone should do I treated Hannah's version as factual and what you're telling me now instead is that she was lying and that you've been continuing to lie to me even today actually but that I should have known telepathically that she was lying and thus I should have disregarded what she actually said both publicly and privately that is unreasonable for my perspective that is insane you spent a lot of time judging others as insane you seem to think that my videos Vanina and Aranda were insane perhaps even without seeing them etc yeah he really had a strong opinion about that but what he said really didn't resemble what I said in the videos well have you seen the video it seems like your opinion is not based on watching those videos um anyway perhaps that he was seen the videos they actually offer a pretty sophisticated political argument like he doesn't seem to be aware of what I was saying the videos perhaps you can reread this correspondence you can recognize how genuinely insane that must seem to be from my perspective given the information I had from Hannah's public statements and from our very limited private communication basically one Skype telephone call and some email that you're about to see on screen in the next few minutes no Michael I'm not gonna stop writing to Hannah he makes a big deal of this that I shouldn't write to Hannah in fact Hannah did reply to my emails after he started alleging that she didn't receive any of my email anymore she kept receiving and kept replying to my email and I think I think she's interested in keeping an eye on this situation probably interesting keeping an eye on her boyfriend I wrote to her with sincere concern just a few times per year even though she did not write to me in the past both of you recognized my good intentions of this affair if temporarily you are so upset for some reason that you can't recognize these good attentions and indeed good actions on my part I can only hope that when you are less upset you will remember yourselves and you will remember me too for who you know me to be so this is me really trying to be positive in a tremendously negative situation I've been put in a know what can I do to make it better it's really terrible and I want to say he later I believe it was right after seeing like he got very offended in me because of my use of the word affair I said in the past both of you recognized my good intentions in this affair English is his second language and he took this as an insult as if the word a fair meant that I believed that it like I believed Hartley's version and that it wasn't rape or something that's it of look now in the English language that's not the meaning of the word affair and I actually quoted the dictionaries like look look up affair you know in this affair means in this set of circumstances in this complex situation so you know I really did try to placate Michael but there there is no pleasing some people it only got worse so this was sort of at a middle point in the controversy where I thought it was settled and I wasn't gonna have to deal with this or nor vegan anymore he sent me some emails that did include an apology he did apologize to me and I had made this big effort I mean again like you know I am sorry I feel bad for this guy I feel bad with situations in but all I can do is ask him to recognize I'm working with the information I had including information directly from Hannah and it's flawed and confusing and internally self contradictory and what you're saying to me now is not the same as soon as what he said to me one email earlier or something you know I'm doing the best I can he made this public statement this was a comment series comments you know kind of blackening my character beneath a video from Joe best I don't really care about it but it led me to ask the question you'll see I asked his girlfriend Hannah look how do you expect me to respond to this this is just not true that that good relations between me and nor vegan fell apart because he we had a discussion about Nina and Randa I was totally willing to discuss Nina in her hand with them I wrote to him and also I offered partly just to calm him down if you wanted to talk to me on skype and once actively melts look if you want to disgust in those videos we can but obviously you know the breakdown in communication between us was about the R word so I'm gonna show here on camera briefly without reading it out this is my writing to Hana and I included noir vegan as a recipient also saying look this is ridiculous and it was after I put in a lot of hours I think this at one point it mentions how many hours that put in writing Dorothy again it's a very difficult situation and believe me like I'm not self fitting like I don't think I'm the one who suffered terribly I totally recognize that nor vegan and Hannah must be going through hell in this situation but you know I'm just trying to help what do you want me to do you know again my what I've said about this publicly is based on what Hannah said about this publicly most people when they talk about rape say believe the victim well in this case the victim publicly said that there was no rape how can you possibly expect me to be supportive for a position you yourselves have never publicly taken or never at this point hey guys I've said many times on this channel that sympathy is important first and foremost as an analytical tool sympathizing with people is not really an end in itself sometimes it is but it's most important when we use sympathy to understand a situation to understand what motivates the other person to understand what their options are what they're going to do next this kind of thing my interactions with also known as noir vegan have been really depressing I've got to say and I've dealt with a lot of you know very eccentric characters in veganism I have received abusive emails from a lot of eccentric characters in veganism and sadly you know noir vegan is his one you know I'm more surprised than anyone else that my my relationship with noir vegan took this turn there was a time when he was just a guy I didn't even know who he was I didn't know he was Hanna's boyfriend he was just some guy writing to me saying that he was putting together a documentary about the daring writer thing and he asked me for legal documents which I provided to him again generally pretty much everyone who wrote to me asking for legal documents or receipts from the court case I did provide them so him again he was a complete stranger he just told me he was and at that time he didn't have a YouTube channel we didn't have when he linked me to he was just saying he was planning to put together this in-depth documentary he has for some legal documents he asked some specific questions about in what video on YouTube did you discuss this issue or that issue and I managed to remember which which videos he was looking for in this kind of thing but I had no I had no connection with him personally and then later I figure out oh oh okay so this is actually the same first name Michael Michael Zurich on first name who's Hannah's boyfriend and then you know the the actual I mean months later it took months his his documentary series started coming out so I didn't bear the guy any ill-will you know I'm also not particularly a fan of his videos I've stated you know my reasons in the past I have reservations about his approach in many ways including his you know psychological diagnosis of durianrider but in terms of what this video is unfortunately you know this long series of abusive emails have gotten from Michael in which I have tried to placate him I've tried to reassure him a threat to address his concerns it just got worse and worse and worse and finally I made this apology video for him that doesn't satisfy him either so you know last things first I will put up on screen here the most recent email I got from Michael where he says again he's gonna take all of our private correspondence and put it on the internet so that he can show everyone what a terrible person I am I think that's counterproductive first and foremost because I already identify as a terrible person I tell everyone I'm a terrible there's no point him trying to prove him a terrible person I would've told you that myself so this email you guys have already seen on screen you saw it in two halves and I read it out loud this is the last email I sent to both Michael and Hannah before the reply received from Hannah that you're about to see on screen next so in part she was replying to this message and of course in part she was replying to all the different issues Michael and I have been talking about in 20 or 50 emails part of this I don't know the number so this is a deeply personal email from Hannah to myself that I wish I didn't have to post on the internet but again Michael has now stated repeatedly and definitively that he is going to post all of our private correspondence the internet and that he's doing it specifically in order to defame me in order to show everyone what a terrible person I am wish nobody's debating so in exactly those circumstances that I have already described that is why you are now seeing this email and is indeed inconsistent with some of the things Michael told me in correspondence and not with others it's inconsistent with some of the things publicly and privately said and not with others although again I do sympathise she writes to me saying hey eyes oh I don't want to talk about this it's extremely painful it actually brings her to tears to even write the email she recalls the Skype call we had in which she did not in any way suggest that there was rape she says here in my recollection is that you were under the impression that dr was flat-out lying that her there had been any sexual contact of any type and were advising me that I could just deny it my response was simply to say that I actually couldn't do that so you know that's this is approximately correct when we started the Skype call to my knowledge based on her video I I thought that during writer was lying that they had any kind of sexual relationship whatsoever because of the contrast me what during write over saying what she was saying and you know so she told me via Skype in that call that they did have sex and there was again absolutely as she says here too in her recollection there was no discussion of the artwork there was no discussion of rape or rape allegations she asked is that in line with what you were called to what assured in my video was that he did not take no for an answer and continued oppressed from war that is 100% true I did not suddenly change my mind and give him consent I chose not to share the full story in my video for a couple of reasons firstly I didn't really know how to explain what had happened rave is a big word which most people think is a case of a stranger jumping up remind a tree I didn't want to use that word as I knew that it would create a storm of controversy that I did not want to be a part of that was wishful thinking secondly in my video was intended to defend you against the specific allegations that dr was making the main ones being that you were predator and messaging loss girls to invite them back to your hotel to ask them for sex so again there was no reason for nor vegan to continue bullying me about this issue there was no reason for my for Michael to be posting our private course was a deeply personal matter so why not just let it be deeply personal beyond that this is somewhat different from the narrative which is given even in the emails already shown on this video from from nor vegan in which he's saying that the issue was that Hannah publicly said there was no rape because she was forced to do so in some kind of blackmail like situation so there are differences between the different accounts here what Hannah says here Michael says in some of these emails nevertheless a situation in which I'd like to be sympathetic and I would not like to be playing this role I have now been forced to play and you will see that you will see exactly what magnitude is in the reply I write to this email and when she says Michael has been basically my sole support through all this I've been an extremely bad way I've attempted suicide please not share this you know with anyone I agree I sure do wish I was in a position to not share this email from anyone I really wish your boyfriend had just been able to have a private conversation and leave it at that but that is the opposite of what he has done so she says here I just want to be forgotten it has taken me a long time to even come to terms with Michaels unmasking series I'm supportive of it simply because we cannot let the arrow fly it's become truth reliable response and literally counting down the days until the series is finished so we can live our life far away from all this if you've watched this channel for any length of time you've heard me say repeatedly that I'm not a nice guy and I'm not really even interested in learning how to pretend to be a nice guy however this is a very very delicate situation in which someone who's really not my friend not a close friend not a distant someone who is not my friend has just told me something deeply personal and it's mentioned that she was recently suicidal and that she's weeping and ready to email to me and so this is my level best effort to reply to that email and you'll see we just have a couple more e-mails back and forth but if you think I'm not being a nice enough guy I can apologize but you're right I'm not a nice guy hi Hannah thanks for taking the time and efforts right back in reference to the Skype conversation is that in line with what you were called with conversation we had I reply I don't think your regulations is wildly inaccurate I think you found yourself in an awkward situation as I was repeatedly referring to durians then recent videos as observed I've regarded them as observed because they claimed as a fact the two of you had sex whereas I assume the opposite was true based on your video I assumed that you would then make another video or statement of some kind that would reiterate that the two of you had never had sex that's showing the German writer was lying Anna state told me that the two of you did have sex thus during Ryder was not lying within that conversation you described the sex as consensual you did not suggest rape etc and since that time I treated that as definitive and it was consistent with what you said publicly thereafter I have never had any reason to think otherwise and thus it is absurd for Michael to claim that I'm supporting during Ryder and treating your own version of events as factual your video describing many things in the tale for example that durianrider stroked her hair on the couch etc seemed to very clearly indicate that you had repeatedly refused during Ryder's offers of affection with no possibility to the two of you had sex at all I can imagine that you were in an awkward position in that moment of the Skype conversation however it was an awkward situation that you had created with your prior video anyone who watched her video and assumed you were telling the truth would have thus included that you and durianrider never had sex at all so yes you later clarified publicly that you did have sex with him and that you are not alleging rape likewise what you said to me privately by a Skype was that you did have sex with during writer and that it was not rape I knew nothing else and I still know nothing else I'm not telepathic so if you're wondering why I say this in this way here keep in mind I really do believe that everyone is innocent until they're proven guilty I really do believe that vegans should not be defaming one another and at that time there was a lot of defamation around I don't want the fame during writer myself I do not want to you know if someone is not even telling me privately that yes this was rape they have these excuses they send me where they say well they didn't say it was rape they also said if they'd also did say it wasn't rape and this kind of thing look rape allegations are very serious I'm not telepathic I'm not gonna read between the lines I'm not you know filling in the blanks here this is what you've told me that's what I knew then and this is still what I know now okay I believe what you tell me but this is what you've told me okay regarding I really don't want to talk about this okay don't talk about it I want to ask you know we don't ever any title this gun it has been extremely painful it brings her to tears to write this message I reply by saying I'm sorry to hear that durianrider hurt a lot of people you were one of the people who stood up to him to try to stop him so was I and as I've said to Michael repeatedly we won you may not realize it now and you may not realize it for years to come but you won his YouTube presence is discredited and destroyed his festival is canceled the vast majority of people who support him in the past now realize the extent to which he lies etc outcomes matter winning matters in terms of actually preventing during writer from harming other people in future these things matter and this is the part that blows my mind and this really is in the background of this corresponds for the whole time I just can't believe that Norvig and Michael is forcing me to be his enemy when naturally we ought to be on the same side we ought to be allies so she says Michael as of course a motive when it comes to the subject because he has been through it all with me I reply simply put if Michael and I aren't on the same side who is you mentioned you've been suicidal that your life has been very much disrupted and so on I can say again I'm sorry to hear that but I've been writing to you up to this point with zero awareness of that side of your life you were someone who made a bold video against durianrider one year ago and you're the girlfriend of someone making three bold videos against during writer now and above all else you were engaged in a lawsuit or a legal case against during writer something we had in common not too long ago I wrote to you with complaints with the delays in my case the legal delays and you wrote back with some remarks etc I had no reason to regard you as a rape victim and no reason to regard you as suicidal on the contrary I had every reason to regard us as two people who were engaged in the same struggle short term against during writer but also long term the struggle for the future of the vegan movement she says I just want to be forgotten and I reply hey you may or may not know the story but I changed my legal name once upon a time there's a link to a video talking with that you can be forgotten it's easily done I'm on YouTube for very different reasons so that my own daughter can one day see my youtube videos fundamentally I mean I feel pity for the guy I feel sorry for the guy I don't really know it again I don't have any inside information about about what a situation is but obviously there's a lot of suffering at his end obviously in terms of sympathy I'd like to think I can imagine how difficult the position he's in really is and how you know he feels he's fighting for his own sense of honour and dignity he's fighting for his girlfriend so a sense of honour day to day and you know I mean obviously early on especially when he started lashing out at me I just assumed was for that reason I just assume will gut you know this guy's got a lot of pent-up grief and anguish and now he's lashing out at me when obviously there are other people he should be he should be lashing out at but you know be that as it may I don't hate him for that and if you read this correspondence I I think very few people are gonna really have the attention span to read this correspondence I don't interesting I think if you read it with any sense of who I am if you're someone who's watching my channel for a while you will realize on the one hand on being sceptical and reticent because this guy has sent me really conflicting and self contradictory information internally so cluttered what he said to me and what Hannah has said to me is self-contradictory it is and secondly you know um I'm just trying to help like I'm just talking this guy's okay what do you want me to do like how can I help because basically he turned on me at a point where he stationed this in the earlier video at one point he just started saying to me that I was supporting during writers story during writers version of events and not Hannah's version and I was I was shocked as how can you having this possibly be true what do you mean and I kind of read through what he said very carefully at that turning point and went back and kind of looked at my video and looked at his videos and I said okay so what you mean must be that even though you've stated publicly it's not about rape even though Hannah has stated publicly it's not about rape even though I had one Skype conversation with Hannah in which there was absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that rape was any consideration or fact that's that the R word came into that rape was not a factor although sex was you know the word sex was used in the report rape wasn't um you know I put the pieces together my sister so it must meet be that what you're insinuating here is that I'm not supporting your version of the story because I'm not reading between the lines that what you really mean is that there was rape even though you've explicitly said publicly that there was no rape and you've said to me in private communication email on this one Skype conversation that there was you know there was there was no really here's the reply from Hannah Chloe you will just note that I have highlighted in yellow there her confirmation that yes she did publicly say that there was no rape quote Heysel thanks you reply I'd like to address a couple of points you made quote you described the sex is consensual she replies I'm certain I never described what happened in any detail and as I said in my previous email the issue of consent was never addressed well.look rape allegations are very very serious obviously she doesn't have to discuss with me I'm not really asking for to discuss it with me in any detail or what-have-you but it's not really a defensible position to say that it's neither rape nor consensual she replies that is not true I have only made one statement publicly since my video that statement said I had not accused him of rape because he hadn't raped me that is a very important statement and again someone like nor vegan someone like Michael has to consider seriously the position that puts me in that's her public position on the issue which is not the same thing as saying that I had sex with him I realized that it is just semantics but this is of particular importance to me I would never equate what happened with him as being as he likes to repeat adult consensual sex well you said it's not rape so that it was the position I was put in and anyone following the story as I was putting it yes I'm an adult but no it was not consensual dr realizing the fact that i'm confused scared and ashamed of describing what happened i made that statement because they were receiving an incessant barrage of blackmail hate messages from TR saying that he was only defending himself because everyone thought that i'd cried rape and that if i stated publicly that i wasn't raped then he would stop so i made the statement in the hope that he would stop and leave me alone what he actually did was to continue making videos and hundreds of tumblr posts that used that statement against me I should have said nothing but at that early stage I just wanted to stop and made the decision without thinking what the implications would be I simply saw it as a means to make it all go away in hindsight I can see that was foolish and naive to believe he would ever do anything as chivalrous as keep his word okay I'm an outsider in this case obviously I'm going to be sensitive in my reply to this but there are more than two sides to every story and indeed to some extent we have heard during writers side of the story on his channel at that time on the contrary I had every reason to regard us as two people who were gauged in the same struggle short-term debts during writer but also long-term the long-term sorrowful future thinking moment she ends this by saying this statement I agree with but I don't think it's mutually exclusive to the information but my personal struggle and the pain I have now shared with you for all the personal cost that I and you have faced in our opposition to durianrider it is certainly a silver lining to think that in the long term this will have some benefit to the vegan movement as a whole this final paragraph is significant in its way because what Hannah Chloe is doing here is exactly what Noor vegan refuses to do Nora vegan refuses to ever admit that I'm being reasonable and she says here quote I can understand that having that Skype conversation with me and then seeing that public statement ie her public statement just quoted that there was no rape combined with the innumerable times during writers repeated this story would give you no reason to believe it was anything but consensual again I had spoke to Hannah directly I had no reason to believe it was anything but consensual and Hannah herself acknowledges this at this stage so I don't know wine or vegan finds it incomprehensible nor vegan as declared he's trying to make me seem psychopathic sociopathic narcissistic unreasonable well Hannah could recognize that I was being reasonable that at this point I had no reason to believe there was anything but consensual Hannah can recognize that nor vegan can't or chooses not to and thus he creating conflict where there shouldn't be any conflict he's creating drama where there should not be any drama a continuum a quotation I think that a lot of this will be addressed in Michaels video vote me too we can prove a lot of what during writers said to be lies and my story's consistent with several of things like messages mother and women which would be too coincidental for us to manufacture nor vegan you should have just let this conflict cease to exist at this point I myself had repeatedly argued to you express to you we had no reason to be enemies but you insisted on making of me you insisted on making private correspondence public you repeatedly declared to me that you were gonna prove to the world what a terrible person I am but everybody already knows I'm a terrible person but your girlfriend Hannah was fundamentally being reasonable here and just saying acknowledging I'd spoken to her privately by email and by Skype I had read the public statements there was no reason for me to think the sex was anything but consensual she sees it you can't or you won't so I can to some extent sympathize the position he was in as stated you know I just imagine that being a tremendously stressful I mean he's in a defensive position where for his own honor and his girlfriend's sake of Honor and he probably feels he's working against a huge crowd of very angry during writer supporters you know I'm it's not hard for me to imagine what that's like his his public position but he seems to be incapable of sympathizing with my position and I really do lay all my cards on table I'm completely honest open with this guy and he responds back by accusing me of being manipulative again and again this kind of thing and it's just it's just counterproductive and then all I could say was okay what do you want me to do and when he said to me okay I want you to apology I can do an apology video that's something I know how to do but it's like look you why can't you since I was the position I'm in where you you've really contradicted yourself it's not as if at any stage he just wrote to me in a down-to-earth calm way and said hey that well not not until yesterday you know when I made the apology video for the first time he sent me an email that said that yes this is about the r-word this is about rape and that he's he's trying to make a case for it okay that I can understand but until we got to that point and again I got email from Hannah also you put me in a completely impossible situation where what you're telling me privately is internally contradictory and what I'm saying is look up until now I've only known what you said publicly why can't you recognize that what you said publicly repeatedly was denying that there was any rape denying the sensitive way so I'm not gonna read out every word of this email I'm just show you a series of screenshots this is my reply at this stage to Hannah and what's being alluded to here I'm not showing you all the email received from Michael at this time as this says h1 hi Hannah my girlfriend I sat down and we watched the main video perhaps the only video ever made address to you in your situation the one title on Hannah Chloe's situation sex itself I would say again that Michaels messages to me yesterday were simply insane so that's the side of this correspondence you're not seeing here and I stand by that those messages were so deranged that Michael really convinced me that he is a dangerous person that he is not and then he's a person with serious psychological problems anyway so this is the only video that Michael was was offended by because it's the only video I did on this topic and I say here highlighted there is absolutely nothing in this video that supports durianrider and nothing that suggests I've been brainwashed by durianrider nor even that durianrider was a source information me so that is again that's what Michael got into and I guess he was again I'll know if he was temporarily going crazy or to what extent this is permanent but that's what Noor vegan was writing to me saying he was writing to be saying that my earlier video shows that I was brainwashed by durianrider that I was supporting during a mightor's version of events in contrast to Hannah's version of events I think I made it very clear now that's not true and again even Hannah in the email I just quoted you Hannah could see that what I was saying was reasonable given both what she said publicly and even what she said to me privately in email and Skype conversations up to that point so guys you can hit pause here you know I'm trying to be reasonable but it was exhausting it took a lot of time and emotional energy to deal with these you know frankly really abusive and horrible emails I was getting from Noor vegan and none of them ever seemed willing to recognize that I was involved in this and the limited way I was just with good intentions so you know I'm and again credit to Hannah and it did recognize that and I thank her for that but this email reply to Hannah shows the fact that I had gotten exasperated I had heard enough of Michael writing to me and telling me that I'm a narcissist which he now claims that I'm some kind of psychopath that I have no sympathy that I'm a terrible person and that I was boy watch battery writer and so that I was supporting durianrider in videos I made that were obviously on the contrary supporting Hana and sympathetic to Hannah's position as much as I knew it and obviously I was part of an ongoing court case against the rain writer as well as you know speaking what I thought was the truth about what was wrong and bad in in his message so you know it's a shame I did the best I could if you have the patience to read this email correspondence and you have any sense of my character I mean I think he's reading this stuff in a really paranoid state of mind really defensive state of mind where he feels everything I'm doing is secretly manipulative there's a hidden agenda everything has a double meaning this kind of thing and there just isn't it just isn't Michael I mean Michael you're basically a complete stranger to me but you know ultimately when I read this stuff I feel nothing but on the one hand the sense of agony and confusion coming for your and at the email and you know it's none of my business I'm just trying to help in the incredibly limited way that I can help and as they say and maybe the second last email in this sequence you know towards the end they don't look man you've got to learn from during writers mistakes you've got to learn to accept reasonable criticism or that other people are just imperfect one of during writers mistakes was that whenever we talked to people he treated them like I either you're a hundred percent a durianrider supporter or you were a hundred percent his enemy and my position is like Noir vegan I don't know you man given the fragmentary and contradictory formation give me how can you expect me to be 100 percent your supporter just given the contrast between what your vegan wrote to me and what Hannah said to me and what Hannah wrote to me how can you expect me to be your hunters before supporter it would be impossible for me to support you on its I can just sit here and tell you look man this is this is all I know and this is a this is a mess so so I don't know anything it's not like I can make a public statement just not like I can make a public statement supporting you when this is this is all I know and wasn't asking me he wasn't asked me to make a public statement it was purely private correspondence until now when he could says again not for the first time he's gonna take all this prep course when I make all this private correspondence and he's gonna post on it okay well if that's how it's got to be managed that's this is you've made that's how it's got to be so this now is finally the Dean um all to this video and the explanation for why this video had to be made at all um obviously I have not displayed every single piece of email from him to me or for me to him I don't even know how many there are but I do feel this has been a concise encapsulation of more than anyone could possibly need to know and as you're about to see my reason for doing it is basically because Michael has forced me to so Michael wrote to me saying hi I was told you know calling me a liar publicly can you give me the specifics as I like to defend myself against these accusations now he's creating conflict out of nothing already at this stage if he wanted to write to me and say hey I wanted to reassure you I was only trolling in that video this issues already been covered in my apology video like what the underlying situation is here he could have just written to me saying hey look I know you called me a liar but from my perspective I wasn't lying I was only trolling which is pretty close he was making intentionally false misleading statements but he considers it not lying okay I mean I can respect that it's a difference of opinion but okay he claims that that video I was referring to as being misleading he claims it was trolling to me I said well maybe he's lying maybe he was misled or confused I said a few things along those lines but there is no reason for us to be in conflict with each other and he's not resolving the conflict here he's only working to escalate it I write back saying I haven't accused you of anything you have nothing to defend yourself against which i think is quite a reasonable statement I mean you know I mentioned in passing well I don't know maybe he just didn't understand what happened at YouTube maybe he was lying I don't know but there's really no reason from defend himself it's ridiculous have a good time in Hawaii I hope you'll make a video on history of the genocide there or at least a video reflecting on how close to extinction the indigenous language is related article real people do real thing and guys that's in character for me that's who I am I care a lot about indigenous languages and language extinction anyone who has email with me knows I bring that up at all kinds of points but look you know I gave him an out there and on the other hand again if you actually want to resolve the underlying issue he could write back saying that he was trolling or apologizing for misleading the public in that video he made but nothing of the kind he writes back saying you sound like you're accusing me of being a liar you say I seen him lie myself it's important that people don't think I'm a liar with the stuff I'm about to come up with come out with any kind of assumes that I know what that means and I don't but all right he's coming up with something well quality email correspondence with nor vegan Michael you're trying to create conflict with me again where there's no reasonable basis for conflict this is not the first time but he can't just let it rest he writes back saying aisel you called me a liar publicly I want to respond your accusation you did this now be a man and give me the specifics so I can shut you down and well no it's all right being called a liar by you again this is really exaggerating what happened in the original video and again he basically admits a lot 90% of lying and admitting that he was trolling but he's still really clear claims that he wasn't a liar all right all right Michael so you are creating a conflict where there's no reason for conflict between us and again if you read every word of this email you will see that he does not take this opportunity to admit that he was merely cruel trolling he does not admit what the underlying issues were I then write him a long email and reply that summarizes the past situation about the r-word about rape etc and you can read this summary but given that I've just gone over the original correspondence I think I don't need to read out to you point one here so hit pause if you want to read every word of this I draw your attention to the lower paragraph on this screen where I say the fundamental problem is that noir vegan is reproducing during writers behavior it isn't possible for me to have good intentions and to wish the best for you and Hanna and for me to admit that I find her email to me unreasonable and self contradictory also hateful and abusive and insulting I mean the guy was constantly calling me a you know a narcissist and saying what a terrible person I am but whatever it isn't possible for me to have genuine questions or to express genuine concern either I'm a hundred percent supporting you or else I'm 100 percent against you that's the way that you behave Michael and I've said to you repeatedly that you have been extremely bullying toward me when there was no reason for you to be so you have also displayed paranoia to a very real extent and you have been totally dismissive my attempts to be conciliatory and helpful even when for example you really understood the meaning of the English words I was using English as your second or third language that's referring to this business with the meaning of the word affair but it's also true he refused my attempts where I just offered to talk to him on skype or try to somehow resolve the conflict because I felt there was no need for any conflict like durianrider Michael you need to be able to accept reasonable criticism without treating people as your enemies someone asked me in a live conversation about the incongruous contrast between the claims you made in that video and the fact that during writers channel has now been reinstated you guys can read this it's me trying to be reasonable with an unreasonable person just hit pause if you want to read every word of it number three here so I'm not mousy about this I mean you know my overall impression of this guy of Nohr vegan is indeed that he's a terrible person and that he has some kind of really strange moral superiority complex where he's highly motivated to tell the world what a terrible person I am you I closed this by saying unlike yourself Michael during writer really was trying to save the world you're just trying to hurt people what are you trying to do right now you're trying to hurt me you're not interested in the future of the vegan movement you're not trying to save the planet help the animals or anything else you're creating drama for the sake of drama you're trying to hurt someone whom you only met in the first place because he tried to help you and that person is me you guys can hit pause you want to see this so here's his reply he's again just escalating the situation there's no possibility of a positive resolution with this guy you guys are probably bored of the underlying facts they've been discussed repeatedly in this video hit pause you want to see what he says here the message goes on hit pause if you want to and this is him defending himself claiming that he wasn't lying he was only trolling so he goes through sentence by sentence here that technically he wasn't lying he was merely misleading people not not exactly lying them okay okay Michael I believe you fine and again he accuses me of being a narcissist is not productive its lies I'm really trying to you know address your concerns and deescalate the situation he only wants to escalate he only wants to create confident there's no reason for conflict you know he really misrepresents everything I've said and why I've said it here just trying to make a bad situation worse you know his gloss on what I said in the earlier email is thanks for saying ha worse than a rapist well I made a specific comment about a contrast in him and durianrider because he is someone who's shown no sincere interest in the future there being a moment and durianrider is at least a mixed bag remember all these people used to be friends of Durant writers Hannah used to be a friend of Darien riders all kinds of people I know you know um Jason fizzy no you know I've known a lot of people who used to be friends during writers and one of the reasons they were was that he was sincerely he was a sincere activist at some stage she seemed to be sincerely to care about these things that sincere way and I made a very specific statement to you Michael that yeah you know if I got a deal with you and I got to deal with during writer I'd rather deal with during writer because at least some little part of him is sincerely concerned about the future of the vegan movement and Michael I've been dealing with you for so many hours now and by your own account you're not you're not you're just trying to hurt people and now it looks like you got bored of trying to hurt during writer and you're trying to hurt me with so little reason and with so little possible tell us the vote come so here's my really brief reply one okay I will immediately shoe an apology on YouTube I will send you the link which I did too I completely accept all of your allegations that terrible person not only do I agree I wish to insist that I'm a much worse person you could possibly imagine three again many of the comments in my prior message and the first prior correspondence should still be useful to you you have made vague confusing self contradictory statements to me and it's unreasonable that you'd expect me to conclude that your videos were about rape allegations based on what Hannah said to me directly and what Hannah said publicly again I've shown you the clip of Hannah agreeing with me on that that yeah the conclusions I came to were reasonable given what she said to me in that Skype conversation in email and her public statements that there was no rape and here he is this I think is yeah this is we finally gotten back to the beginning I put this image up at the start this is why the video exists here he is stating his final resolution that no my attempt to make an apology video is wasted my apology totally fails to satisfy him because he's a completely reasonable person he can't see any good intentions in what I've done he reads everything I do as manipulative and evil even when I'm apologizing to him even when I'm trying to de-escalate the situation resolved the conflict there's no de-escalating with him there's no plaque aiding him you can pause this and read it you may have seen it before in this video but that is that the last I will ever hear from Norfolk in' I you know I don't really understand the total lack of sympathy from his side or he can't just see that look even if all the negative things to say but says above a tree even from a terrible person from a deeply flawed person well I'm a deeply flawed person who's trying to be on your side even if you think I've made the terrible mistake of supporting Doreen Ryder's version of events you know that's not intentional you know I'm not out here trying to support their in Ryder so if you're not going to have the time and detachment and care to sit down and talk me through this or something if you're not gonna come clean with me if I can't negotiate with you if I can't work with you basically make it impossible for me to support you and then again he sees it the same way during Ryder does he reacts as if either you're a hundred percent of supporter or is a hundred percent or you're a hundred percent as enemy so that's a that's a goddamn shame nor vigan the only time we ever talked about it you know you said to me that you have no interest in being a thing activists or the future of the movement and I take you at your word fundamentally I don't really want to write to you or talk to you just for that reason when I look at people I meet on the Internet the basic question I ask myself is is this someone I can cooperate with to make something positive happen in veganism its political movement in the next five years and when I asked you that Michael when I asked you that nor vegan your answer was no you would absolutely know what just do anything positive and you know I don't hate you for that but fundamentally that means we just have no reason to talk to each other we have no reason to be involved in Joe's business today I want to talk about there are three different types of people when people talk about and number one the start at the bottom number one there's people that talk about gossip right they talk about other people they're just gossip Queens all they do is talk about other people you know that's that's basically what their life is based on is they have nothing else better to talk about than other people just gossip Queens then you have people that just talk about things you know cars motorcycles you know just useless things that's you know their main conversation pieces things now number three and this is the category I put myself in is people that talk about ideas their brain is constantly working on new concepts possibly new business ideas ways to make money we're talking about new things you follow me so we got the gossipers people to talk about things and gossipers basically is you know where let's say you're you're with a buddy grab some lunch you're like hey bro dude I got this [ __ ] in trouble business idea oh my god so what I'm going to do is you start telling it's like it's like oh dude check out our Facebook look at it look what so-and-so is doing on Facebook and you're like like that's what your life consists of they're talking about [ __ ] Facebook I mean that's an example of a gossip now so these three types of people gossip you'll talk about things and people that talk about ideas a bonus yen