"How to Create a Vegan World" (Discussion) [vs. Tobias Leenaert & Peter Singer!]

we have been collectively reading tobias
lee in arts newest book and in case you don't know who tobias lee an art is tobias lee an art is like the most hated vampire within the vegan movement if you don't know why he's a kind of infamous and highly controversial figure you can just look at the front cover of his book it says with an introduction by Peter Singer Dada it has been actively promoted by Peter Singer on social media he's got introduction tacked onto the front of the book and that's a funny thing in itself when you think about it because Peter Singer was an establishment mainstream figure in animal rights and at least vegetarianism a few decades ago if not veganism but today he's kind of a controversial I think widely hated figure in the movement and you know Tobias he's also now kind of regarded as an awful to read as a provocative and largely hated figure so what this habit said I invited him on the show I've invited to come on and do an interview with me and my reason for being this video now is that I think the first argument in the book a book I have not yet finished reading by the way I think there's kind of enough to talk about there to make a standalone video okay now I'm springing this on my girlfriend I do this stuff with no script and no prep because it's more spontaneous than way but this is the argument I'm now gonna summarize devices argument and then I can contrast my own view and my girlfriend can jump in at any time the first argument I mean at the first twenty five thirty percent of the book is setting out really boils down to a kind of plea for vegans and reduce Italians to embrace each other you know literally as well as figuratively I have a photograph right here on my harddrive of Tobias Lee and art embracing a introduce it Aryan right I have a photograph of him after reduce it Aryan conference yeah eh-eh-eh-eh-eh there it is so this this is him literally hugging it reduce it here okay they're not okay all right okay all right so look you know he breaks bread with reduced Aryans he sometimes refers to himself as a reduced Aryan rather than a vegan and and there's a large part of this book is devoted to basically just supporting reduced Aryans as having compatible goals and capital compatible positive outcomes with vegans he offers the following protracted allegory to explain why he sees this way and at the same time it explains why the vast majority of vegans do not see it that way he once spoke to a woman who is a celiac celiac disease which is devilishly hard to spell I had one relative in my family with celiac disease celiac disease is the condition that really requires you to never eat gluten okay that is not the same thing as so-called gluten intolerance celiac disease is a very real medical problem and this woman's life has in somewhat happened and so ways we made more difficult by and in some ways made easier by the larger and larger number of people who do not have any medical problem but who are buying gluten-free products right so the parallel that veganism should jump out at you already we all know that the last 20 years soy milk has become easier and easier to purchase in the Western world it's not because the number of vegans has increased exponentially there are more and more people who are not vegan poor buying soy milk he throws us some statistics that some vegan restaurants seventy percent of their customers are not vegan people who never will be vegan the people were reduced Aryan or just meat-eaters who want to eat a vegan meal once in a while they're meat eaters who just like the food but in a very real economic sense they're providing the basis for them so he's saying there's a push and pull here there's a kind of ethical fissure between people who are real celiacs people who really have celiac disease on the one hand and people who are fake celiacs because keeping it real that's what we're talking ten to be gluten intolerant and bi gluten-free bread and gluten free breakfast everyone all kinds of stuff but you don't actually have this medical condition so naturally there's a kind of moral antipathy or conflict there but he's saying if you take a step back and look at it in terms of the actual cycle the actual economic outcomes what have you you really are playing on the same team and the fake celiacs are making life easier for the real celiacs therefore if so facto the fake vegans are making life better for the real vegans even if there's a natural hatred of you know vegans heating reduce it Aryans as fake vegans yeah well I will just add this is kind of unrelated but also somewhat related today I just saw news that Nestle bought sweet earth which was originally a vegan brand vegan brand of faux meat and Nestle is obviously yes but you know makes me think of it because it they now with Nestle buying it I think I think sweeteners will be available and far more surer than there right now now a good scale of like specialized health food stores and while I can see a lot of people boycotting probably in the future also I heard people are boycotting deya too because they were just bought out by a company that also tests on animals anyway but at the same time you see vegans going nuts because Ben and Jerry's puts out one vegan variety tell me it's right right and then for ever made just dairy ice cream so yeah yeah that's true but anyway vegans like to boycott stuff I mean you know that's that is fact one but yeah it's a little bit crazy yeah I can see that argument being purely safe and right sound to me like I mean more people but but it has an introduction by Peter Singer so we hate look no but what's interesting too is generally there are several arguments in the first thirty percent of the book where he's actually more conservative than I am I'm using the word conservative within the context of veganism like he more adheres to a traditional vegan perspective and I go much further than him so let's let's think of some examples um he very politely and mildly criticizes the link between social justice movements and veganism he very vaguely employed Lisa jests that veganism is not really a social justice movement in the way some vegans portray it to be I go way further than him maybe maybe we will maybe you determine animals to be people but other people don't okay like that or maybe maybe we feel this way but other people don't feel that animals are on the same level as humans right he very vaguely and politely suggests that the arguments equating animal exploitation with human slavery are weak I go much further than that in this channel and you know I deal with specific examples and specific sources and say look this is direct action everywhere position etc etc so I mean in some ways I'm much more radical than he is and just say critics of his accuse him of being a radical pragmatist or an extreme pragmatist so in some ways I am more pragmatic than him although in some ways I'm more principled I think within this video you know you're gonna see that yeah yeah okay so to contrast my own view here I think what's missing is the big c-word I used to talk with this gentleman a long time ago I think like two years ago which is culture we can talk about political change we have a dietary change so we end up with change in health guidelines given up by the government the sometimes were just talking about the diet aspect of veganism we talk about economic change but cultural change is I think really the category we have to talk about these changes then so in terms of bringing about cultural change let's start with the perception of cigarettes as an example instead of gluten-free yes obviously you're gonna have a tiny percentage of the population that actually become anti-smoking activists why would you why would you there is a much larger percentage population who will quit smoking right so the tiny tiny number way less than 1% I'm sorry fewer than one percent fewer become actual anti-smoking activists and then there's you know millions of people who actually quit smoking or who struggled with smoking and then there's maybe a larger number depends on where you're living who don't quit smoking who continues smoking but who start to adopt the cultural attitude that smoking is a bad thing whose share in the overall assumption the shift compared to the 1940s and people actually thought that stuff was healthy for you that it wasn't a problem at all shifting into a worldview that yeah this is something has to be phased it over time put it this way there's a percentage of smokers even if they continue smoking even if they're not trying to quit they would not want their own son or daughter to start smoking they acknowledge so yeah likewise they don't want their boyfriend or their daughter's boyfriend or girlfriend right and smokers yeah yeah so your daughter starts dating a new guy you see smoked cigarettes you don't think oh that's okay cuz I'm a smoker too you'd think he's a bad guy yeah it's got a bridge to it so sure that's that's a process of cultural change but the tiny percentage of people who are actually anti-smoking activists and that may include like a cancer surgeon someone who specialized in lung cancer and people who do research on these different factors they are actually going to lobby for change at City Hall provincial Parliament Federal Parliament other than the state's Congress the Senate however you want to put this right so there's there's a there's a political aspect in which we really need to be especially concerned about and focused on that tiny percentage so you know the the pure vegans or everyone to put it the highly motivated we don't have to think of them as representative of the population as well we don't think of them as leading a transformation in the population of the whole that's gonna make them resemble that tiny minority you know the activist minority I think it's it's wrong and misleading to think of them in mass market terms think about what their importance is and again that's only the legal and political change we've talked about cultural change the same way a small number of artists a small number of musicians cause a huge change but there are a hundred and ten percent committed like these activists that's what I'm really interested I'm interested in a small number of people who can cause a you know a big cultural change and who will cause a big compliment and my analysis my perspective isn't really incompatible with Leonardo incompatible is really the question of what do we do now he's saying let's put our effort into supporting the long tail if you like you talking about it as a line chart of softcore dusit Aryans and I'm saying no no no this small percentage the same with you know I'm sorry but anti-smoking activists or you know mothers against drunk driving mothers gets to drive and repeats the anythi alcohol activists there's a tiny position population I'm not saying the future everyone is going to become a member of Mothers Against Drunk Driving but this small percentage of population can have an impact and there's a large number of people who've quit drinking they're people who are still drinking but who now regarded as a bad dangerous thing who changed their cultural attitudes right so when I see it that way he is looking at it in terms of mass market and a cycle of bringing out more and more products more economically viable products making life easier for vegans and that is true I'm not refuting that but I am looking at a cycle of cultural change and political leadership I know if you call that the other side of the coin at the other side of the equation and I'm saying no no we've got to focus our energy and efforts over here yeah no that's really interesting I thought that was interesting when you pointed it out and we were reading it together then yeah we really maybe we don't need more than 5% of the population to be vegan - right for there to be vegan options you know like we can we can lobby for there to be vegan options and like you mentioned in Taiwan that there are vegan options and every train station right just in schools like you know you don't have to have a religious majority for there to be kosher meals that's right and I think that's the paradoxical thing about being principled I mean you think about it why does a tiny minority like you know the Jews have the access to kosher meals well it's because our society recognizes the principle of that like okay we have to make a little bit of effort whether it's at the airport or the hospital to provide these special meals for these people because there's an important principle here whether you think of that as the principle of religious diversity a secular multicultural society or if you actually believe in God or something whatever the principle is that's being recognized so yeah it's it's a bit paradoxical because it may seem to make sense that by being less and less principled but being more and more flexible you think you're gonna get those outcomes but another question is can't we just get organized and get recognized 5% is a huge percentage of the population where it's okay these people matter you know respecting their beliefs matters you know our society the society is gonna comment us to the same extent that they accommodate maybe Jews and Muslims and what-have-you yeah ya know that's you know I met one girl it was part of an activist movement on a university campus in England one of the major universities there where they ended up just getting veganism recognized as a religion they added to those because that was the easiest way to solved the problem they really had problems with vegans being able to get food yeah anyway basically in campus cafeterias and so on it was like what you guys are knocking yourselves out to offer halal meat and all this other stuff why can't you make a little bit of an effort so there's you know nutritionally complete vegan meals and that was that was the shortcut yeah so anyway look I'm just want to say I'm all for you know people that are going to vegan restaurants that sure aren't and you know you've mentioned that opening a vegan restaurant or sure bakery or whatever it probably is the easiest like not nice so that's it for sure but it's like a good way to be a political activist it's the most underrated food activism you actually get involved with because you attract people to veganism just by having good food but I think you should come to the restaurant because they've heard it's good you know it's vegan like make it possible for vegans to be vegan yes like even if people just go to a vegan restaurant because like oh i'll be healthy for one night you know some people quit drinking for just one sure but i mean you know if you're talking about seatbelt legislation i don't think there ever was a point in America's history where 5% of the population really cared about see politics right so a small percentage of people were passionate about that they published a hit book they started appearing on the news and they grow through important legislation that changed the way Americans live their lives every day the seatbelt is now a fixture of your life every day there's an issue of principle there you know there's an issue of you know body count of dead bodies and Street you know they're ethical as well as as well as practical issues but know if you think they mobilized 5% of the population to come like rise up on the streets or something no that's not how it happened so I just say I guess tobias as a point of saying don't underestimate the soft core quite possibly hypocritical fake vegans reduce their because they're they're in a hypocritical position you know we call what everyone I call it okay so we can say all right that's that's that's duly noted but then I can say from my perspective those people aren't the people who ever passed new legislation for seatbelts it wasn't people who just passively said gee you know my cousin Morty he got killed in this car accident he didn't he didn't really have to die if you got these guys you know mmm but I don't really care enough to do anything about it yes of course there's a larger number of people millions who passively thought seatbelts were a good idea but didn't we have to value and work with and work on and we ourselves become and raised money for and get organized for and passed new laws form with that tiny percentage of people who really make the difference not only politically but I'm saying here culturally I think culture is really the missing term in this kind of analysis yeah when you mentioned Mothers Against Drunk Driving and also the seatbelt legislation to me like at first when I was thinking about that I thought well veganism isn't so direct like you don't see people dying immediately from raw meat like it's not like yeah oh well he ate too much meat one night and died you know like like alcohol you can have too much alcohol in one night and die um whereas you know Peterson doesn't have that going for it but at the same time you know if you look at the long term how much how much the vegan diet can benefit the human the human body okay okay okay jump in though we have the unbelievably awful spectacle of what happens in slaughterhouses every day and that is immediate horrified so actually we think about it we have something on our side because I mean you know I've seen I remember once I went to the the police say this was actually back when I was applying to become a police officer another story I've applied during the army a pleasure of the police officer I got stories but including I remember I walked in and they had they had that an actual car from a car accident you know like someone had died in the field where they picked up the car and put it inside so there'd be this spectacle of like this can happen to you you know so no I mean I think it's true that different social movements the spectacle is an aspect of it yeah but you know I mean the most common story in the 21st century now the Internet has change this is people become vegan because they saw a YouTube video of where their meat come or how milk is actually made and they never thought about it before and that changes them so which thing is true you know hamburgers don't cause heart attacks in the same direct way that car accidents cause human death human fatalities however hamburgers do cause the deaths of cows if there are people who are tepid about the seatbelt legislation because of that if they're just saying like oh well you know my cousin died but I don't care enough to go to Congress and say like there needs to be legislation like this you know people aren't actually caring about about humans like I you know how many good how many people are really gonna care about that - right change the rules for slaughtering you know change but look I mean you know videotape changes these things you know if you read any we're watching the HBO series Rome right now but if you read any historical primary source documents people who lived in slave societies knew happy slaves doesn't matter whether it was 1% of slaves or 20% of slaves they were happy enough in any given society but they had slaves who were their friends and co-workers and they say oh yeah well I know this guy he's a slave okay whether word I'm an ancient Rome or ancient Greece or even you know the Caribbean Caribbean had very complex layered on equal slave societies not all slaves live in same conditions and that was a huge counterbalance where most people involved in slavery didn't see the worst excesses of slavery they didn't see what happened on a sugar plantation in contrast to the slaves that may literally work at the Senate or the public you know the most privileged slaves may be the ones you interact with most the slave who merely minds the shop for the local smithy or what have you local local craftsmen or something you know the slaves he seemingly everyday you were having encounters with slaves that reaffirmed the sense that in general your site your Society worked fine and you might not see somewhere you know you buy sugar in its finished product form and not realize the unbelievable horrors that are behind the the sugar industry and again they'd use pamphlets and the relatively weak printing press I got it though tonight I don't know anyone who looks at b6 order house footage you know the basic reality of a sow lying on a concrete floor and one of those steel cages suckling its piglets where the sow can't even stand up the pigs literally can't turn around you guys are familiar with this stuff the reality of how artificial insemination works all this stuff I don't see anyone who looks at that and says you know what there are plenty of happy cows they're plenty happy within this factory farming system so yeah and again share the device tobias makes the point very briefly but very simply that we have a unique political challenge on our hands with v ism it's nothing like the struggle to abolish slavery it's nothing like this it's on that it's unique it's got unique advantages and unique disadvantages but you know i'm going to recognize those advantages as well but yeah in response to that spectacle i guess the sad fact of human nature is a tiny percentage of people want to become activists and take it to parliament or take it to the artist studio take it to that you know start creating i mean you may not be directly political maybe through other creative means they want to record a song and dance or paint a picture or whatever it is but a small small number of people become real activists a small but significant part of people just become dietary vegans you know but are not activists or what-have-you and then there's this larger number of people who just decide to cut down right yeah you know i can see that happening I know it's conjecture but I can see more people becoming vegan you know like sure adopting a plant-based diet maybe fifteen percent of the population but still most people would not care enough sure like one thing has become more available and stores I can actually see that be well for men leading to the opposition for me the cultural the cultural change is at what point in your culture are you an because you say to somebody hey you know what you got to wear your seat belt if you're gonna drive in the car and then at what point your culture you're an when you're the only guy who refuses to wear Co you know that was the cultural change you went you wear seat belts with oh wow oh you're gonna force me to wear a seat belt this is ridiculous - it really being the opposite where it's like you know what why not what's the matter with you why aren't you wearing a seat belt so I think that's also the tipping point and you know again with with cigarettes there's a tipping point where oh whoa you're the one guy who refuses to sit around smoking with us as opposed to you're the one guy who still goes outside and smoke cigarettes in the middle of his Smita when that's when that's disappeared so you know that's the kind of question you're gonna ask is at what point do the the reduced Aryans and the fake vegans start to get that kind of leverage but I'm not gonna work for that I'm not gonna be out on that end of the the tail I'm not gonna be out there trying to work with and collaborate with the people who are wishy-washy and don't really care diversity I'm gonna work with the talented tenth who are really the talented one-tenth of 1% the tiny minority within a tiny minority who are highly motivated dynamic creative people whether involved in cultural process or political processes for for real change if you're one of those people you can google my name you can find in my email hit me up let's get organized let's make it happen I'm gonna be back in Canada in December of this year and then we are going to organize we're gonna we're gonna take it to Parliament Hill